Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Jason Fuller]

You are correct, I had not seen them, and thank you for sharing!  I love 
them both. I'm a big fan of 26" wheels, partly because of how nimble they 
feel, and partly because I hate toe overlap and headtubes shorter than 
~135mm.  

The XO size I have is a 52 seat tube, 55 top tube. It fits great but since 
I like the flats on my drops to be around parallel if not a smidge higher 
than my saddle, I would do better with a taller frame if I wanted the level 
top tube. 

I still think the "fistful of seatpost" and level, high top tube approach 
has its place for flex characteristics, but it's not ideal for fit or 
standover to be sure

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Patrick Moore]

Now, that is very nice! Thanks for the photo.

I'd guess that yours, like mine, is a 55?

Your chainrings are far bigger than any I installed. But I did hit 48 mph
chasing and matching pace with a Range Rover at the bottom of a steep, 1/2
mile hill in 98 gear inch top gear (48 X 12 X 24.5"). (Back when I was a
sprightly 40-something.)

In fall 1994, I called Riv and asked Grant to make me a road bike that rode
"at least as well" as that '92 XO-1. He said, "Oh, it'll be a lot better."
And it was; Waterford, built around the contemporary AllRounder model, but
with road tubing and lugs. 73* parallel, 42.5 cm stays, *tout *753 except
for 531 fork; 54 c-c IIRC -- after I'd built it and ridden it and liked it,
I told Grant, "I'm going to let others know about his!" He said, "Don't you
dare!" -- because he was emphasizing "fistfull of seatpost" sizing back
then. My fistfull of seatpost, level-top-tube sizing is 60 X 56/57, c-c.

The 2 of 3 customs that I've kept, the 1999 and 2003 (the only difference
is that the '99 is 57 c-c, the '03 is 58, both sloping tts), were one step
forward from the 1994, and both are my beau ideals or Platonic archetypes
or airey castles of bike fit and handling: slacker head, longer chainstays;
just the perfect combination of straigh line stability and nimble turn-in.
All built for 559 or 571 wheels.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 1:48 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> Here you go Patrick!  It's a bit of a spare-parts build currently, but if
> I keep it* I will be upgrading parts as budget allows.
>
> *I am constantly debating whether to keep my Soma Grand Randonneur or the
> XO, as I only have room for one of them. The Soma would actually be the
> less expensive choice, but the XO is more historically significant. The
> Soma is pretty special too, though!  More tire clearance, 650B, and quick
> too.
>
> On Friday, 22 November 2019 12:03:55 UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>
>> Please post a photo of your '92 XO-1.
>>
>>>
>>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Patrick Moore]

"Topline Superlight." I did also use a Grafton triple on it for a while,
which was an entirely other can of worms

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 1:03 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> ... an ineffably nice looking Grafton Superlight crank ...
>

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Patrick Moore]

Note that the Elk Passes are really featherweights: I weighed one new
sample at ~175 grams, another at ~180. I use them with the lightest 23 mm
tubes I can find, *with sealant* in goathead country; even on firm dirt;
wonderful tires. Note that I expect only 1,500 trouble free miles out of a
rear installed new, though.

I used 559 X 32 Paselas -- non-Tourguard -- for commuting for several
years, and there is no comparison. That Pasela is better than many
alternatives, but (1) they are surprisingly delicate: I shaved tread off
once by a skid, and several times had the sidewalls crack, and (2) they had
a very small pressure range between bouncy and harsh; and, lastly, they
were quite prone to thorn punctures -- when I was commuting 30-40 miles a
day 3 or 4 times a week, I'd fix at least 4-5 flats a week on just those
wheels. The 559 X 32 actual Kojak rolled as well while being far more
sturdy and resisting thorns better.

Judging things by the usual test -- over a long period, does this tire
encourage your to use a higher gear in given conditions -- the EPs are
worth at least a couple of gear inches over the Kojaks and Paselas, and I
"feel" that they also roll better than the 559 X 23 Pro Races and Grands
Prix I used on another bike -- it has been several years since I used
these, so the models may have changed.

Please post a photo of your '92 XO-1. I have fond memories of mine, though
all  my Riv Roads have been improvements. I first built my XO up as a
gofast, with 48/38/26 X 12-19 7 speed triple, 370 gram "semi-aero" rims
(purple!) shod with the then-available 559 X 23 mm Specialized Turbo (a
very nice tire, and very smooth for its narrow width!), an ineffably nice
looking Grafton Superlight crank, oh, and drop bar Gripshift! I did some of
my modest personal bests on that. After I got my first Riv Road in early
1995, the XO was devolved to commuting duties with 46/36/24 X 13-21, and a
26.4 mm Cinelli Giro d'Italia stuffed into 25.4 mm Tioga T Bone stem, bar
end shifters, rack, fenders, and 2X NightRider Cyclops 15 w halogens, a
good 5 lb of lights, and various Carradice saddlebags, racks, and panniers.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 10:52 AM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> I have been eyeing the Elk Pass tires for the XO - good to know!  I will
> probably order up a set in the spring.  Funny, a box just arrived to my
> desk from Rene Herse this moment (my new chainrings)
>
> On Friday, 22 November 2019 09:23:49 UTC-8, Christopher Cote wrote:
>>
>> Jason, the build with the Ultradynamico tires is killer! Can I ask what
>> your saddle height is in the pic?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>
> About 28.25" from center of BB to top of saddle, measured parallel with
> seat tube
>
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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Christopher Cote]

Thanks. I assumed that the 55cm Sam was my size, but my saddle height has been 
creeping down over the past few years, and I run it around 72cm now. Your 
saddle height isn't much lower than mine, and it looks like you can get the 
bars at saddle height without an unreasonable amount of stem quill showing. 
That opens the possibility of 650b for me.

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Jason Fuller]

I have been eyeing the Elk Pass tires for the XO - good to know!  I will 
probably order up a set in the spring.  Funny, a box just arrived to my 
desk from Rene Herse this moment (my new chainrings) 

On Friday, 22 November 2019 09:23:49 UTC-8, Christopher Cote wrote:
>
> Jason, the build with the Ultradynamico tires is killer! Can I ask what 
> your saddle height is in the pic?
>
> Chris
>

About 28.25" from center of BB to top of saddle, measured parallel with 
seat tube 

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Christopher Cote]

Jason, the build with the Ultradynamico tires is killer! Can I ask what your 
saddle height is in the pic?

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[John McClusky]

I’ve got several years on my older, canti Sam and can’t imagine ever giving it 
up.  I’m always reminded that it’s the best bike I’ve ever owned every time I 
ride it.  Do yourself a favor.  Get a second wheelset.  Swapouts are a breeze.  
Takes me very little time to swap from road Sam to dirt Sam.  Fenders add a 
little challenge.

Enjoy the ride for many years to come.

John

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Patrick Moore]

Try the Rene Herse 559 Elk Pass: these make Paselas feel like $10 knobbies.
~29 mm on 21 mm (outside) rims, ~27 on 19s. Grant designed my 2 (remaining
of 3) Riv road customs to be improvements on my erstwhile '92 XO-1.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:47 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> ...
> Joe - yeah, as much as I wish I could fit a bit more tire, that's a good
> point. The 1992 has a unique charm. I prefer bigger tires but it's like a
> go-kart with the 26x1.25 Pasela tires (which measure more like 26mm). Super
> fun bike.
>
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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Jason Fuller]

Patrick,  maybe it is a 700c vs. 650b difference, since mine is a 650b 
model?  I'm not sure!  

Joe - yeah, as much as I wish I could fit a bit more tire, that's a good 
point. The 1992 has a unique charm. I prefer bigger tires but it's like a 
go-kart with the 26x1.25 Pasela tires (which measure more like 26mm). Super 
fun bike.  

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Joe Bernard]

Jason: A small aside (excellent Sam, btw), I dig the tusk '92 XO-1. I think 
it's cool that it came with lightweight single-pivot caliper brakes for a more 
pure 26-inch wheel road bike. I've owned the orange '93 and it's awesome with 
cantis for a broader duty range, but I think the bike lost a bit of focus with 
that change. 

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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for the additional info. Again, a very nice and interesting build.
And, very interesting to hear that the new model Sam can take 50s -- I
daresay with fenders, if you are careful with the installation? So perhaps
you could install the Rene Herse 700C X 55s without fenders? Amazing,
compared to the original model.

I use 60 mm tires (700C Big Ones) for our sand, but I've ridden 50s
successfully on the same terrain, and 50 seems to be the minimum for
adequate float (60 is better). So one could theoretically have a Sam sandy
road bike.

Patrick "but I use a 42 cm Maes Parallel bar on a 10 cm stem" Moore

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 8:30 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> Thanks everyone for the comments!
>
> Patrick:  Yes, 50mm Tallux, and you're absolutely correct that it's all
> due to the wide bars. I would run an 80mm with "normal" drop bars.
> Reaching wider puts one's shoulders quite a bit further forward, all else
> equal. Tires are 650 x 48, but measure a touch wide at around 50mm. No
> issue with clearance on this iteration of the Sam!  6+mm everywhere, except
> about 4mm at the seatstay lug. This is a 51 frame with a 565 ETT I think it
> was, but as you say, with the slack ST angle it fits a bit shorter which I
> was counting on. These Compass / Rene Herse tires are wicked fast, nothing
> quite like them in the wider sizes. In my opinion, running supple, high TPI
> tires is one of the biggest improvements you can make to how a bike feels!
>
> Tom: I do find that the drops are a bit weird at this width, though I love
> the feel of riding the hoods. Aggressive off-road riding and pushing hard
> on uphills are the only times I find myself using them. But up top there
> are a few positions that are comfortable, so it's all good! The hoods kind
> of feel like riding an old MTB with bar ends, but without excessive reach.
> It's nice!
>
> Rob: Totally! I have an XO-1 actually, but sadly it's a white 1992, not
> the iconic orange 1993. I'd love for that to be a sibling bike!
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Jason Fuller]

Thanks everyone for the comments!

Patrick:  Yes, 50mm Tallux, and you're absolutely correct that it's all due 
to the wide bars. I would run an 80mm with "normal" drop bars.  Reaching 
wider puts one's shoulders quite a bit further forward, all else equal. 
Tires are 650 x 48, but measure a touch wide at around 50mm. No issue with 
clearance on this iteration of the Sam!  6+mm everywhere, except about 4mm 
at the seatstay lug. This is a 51 frame with a 565 ETT I think it was, but 
as you say, with the slack ST angle it fits a bit shorter which I was 
counting on. These Compass / Rene Herse tires are wicked fast, nothing 
quite like them in the wider sizes. In my opinion, running supple, high TPI 
tires is one of the biggest improvements you can make to how a bike feels!

Tom: I do find that the drops are a bit weird at this width, though I love 
the feel of riding the hoods. Aggressive off-road riding and pushing hard 
on uphills are the only times I find myself using them. But up top there 
are a few positions that are comfortable, so it's all good! The hoods kind 
of feel like riding an old MTB with bar ends, but without excessive reach. 
It's nice!

Rob: Totally! I have an XO-1 actually, but sadly it's a white 1992, not the 
iconic orange 1993. I'd love for that to be a sibling bike! 




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Re: [RBW] Let me introduce my new friend, Sam, properly

[Patrick Moore]

Welcome, and thanks for an interesting report. And, nice bike!

Curious: That's a very short stem, no? I use 8s or 9s on my Rivs, and yours
looks even shorter. And that leads to a question: What is the st
measurement, c-c, of your Sam, and what is the effective tt measurement?
One former Riv I owned was an original issue, green ,canti Sam, a 55 that
had a 59 cm tt, compared to my "normal" size -- for flat top tube -- of 60
X 56-57 c-c. The slacker st angle took care of some of that, but even
putting the saddle more forward by a cm or so still left more tt than I
wanted for drop bars; Noodles, in my case; one reason I sold it. I wonder
how it would have felt with a, what, 6 cm stem? For yours, I guess that
such a magnificently wide bar requires a very short stem?

Also, am I right in thinking that current Sams take fatter tires than those
original Sams? Certainly, 42s with fenders would have been a stretch on
mine, IIRC -- I ran Jack Green browns or Jack Brown greens; forget which,
but with fenders, I rather think there would not be room for 42s.

And, what is the width of those knobbies?

I think that, even with the too-long tt, if my Sam had been able to take
true 50s, I would not now be riding a custom (sandy soil) dirt road bike.
For me, the Sam -- again, original model -- felt a bit sluggish on
pavement, tho' perhaps that was a result of the Jack Browns/Greens, which
rated very slow on BQ's rolldown tests; not that it was "bad;" only that it
didn't have the spriteliness of the other Riv road bikes I've ridden. But
as a dirt road bike, it would have been wonderful if it could have fit
tires wide enough for our sandy soil.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 10:37 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> So, I'm a life-long bike geek that raced XC mountain biking in the early
> 90s, competed in biketrials in the late 90s, then got into freeride
> mountain biking and downhill racing in the 2000s.  I didn't really care
> about pavement-based riding until the mid-2000s, when I got into fixed gear
> bikes. In the late 2000s, I discovered cyclotouring, and in the early 2010s
> I discovered randonneuring. I still ride what Grant would consider a
> "motocross" type mountain bike, doing "stunt riding" as he'd call it. I
> also happen to live in Vancouver BC, which is the world's mecca of extreme
> mountain biking.
>
> All that to say, I've taken quite the path to end up owning a Rivendell,
> although they've been on my radar for almost 20 years. When I got into
> touring, I certainly coveted the Atlantis, but I wasn't willing to spend
> that kind of money on a frameset. I'm not exactly rich today either, but I
> think my appreciation for detail has increased to the point I was able to
> justify a (lower cost) Riv. This decision was accelerated by the impending
> end of my favourite model of the past few years, the Hillborne.
>
> A Soma Grand Randonneur donated its components for this build, which had
> been a great bike for me and has taken me on some big rides to cool places.
> I knew full well that I was moving to a "slower" bike by all standard
> measures, but I was excited by the new possibilities. I wanted to expand
> what I could do on this, my most expensive, bike. I wanted to be able to go
> on tours both on- and off-road, ride through some of the local forests with
> friends, yet also keep up with my roadie buddies (as best as I can) on
> pavement-based weekend club rides. I wanted a bike that will be up for
> anything.
>
> Obviously that requires compromise, but I am pretty impressed by how
> little compromising I've had to do.  As you can see in the photos, my Sam
> has a split personality - fenders and Rene Herse 42c slicks, or
> Ultradynamico semi-knobby tires. It's kind of a pain to switch between the
> two, but the rest of the build works so well for either version I can't
> imagine changing anything in the near future. The bike is not quite as
> quick as my Soma, but damned if it isn't close. The comfort is incredible,
> and that was a surprise, as the Soma is a very compliant frame (much
> thinner walled, both in frame and fork). It's much more stable than the
> Soma, yet carves a turn so well I nearly over-steer sometimes. This might
> be partly the hugely wide, 645mm Towel Rack handlebars.
>
> This bike is new to me only this once, and I hope to break my tendency of
> switching bikes every few years with this one. I hope to be riding this
> bike 10, even 20 years from now. Only time will tell.
>
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