Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[ted]

Bill Lindsay (sounding like a Jan Heine apologist) writes:

"I would bet a dollar that Jan Heine never said "51mm is the best width for 
559 rims", or anything else like that. "

Though I agree that Jan may never have said "... is the best ..." he does 
seem to like the word "optimal", and I do think "optimal" is something like 
"best". That said, over on the "... go fast 700c ..." thread Jan wrote:

"We can tell you which tire is faster (or not), but we won't tell you which 
bike feel you should prefer."

Clearly he doesn't mean to come off as telling folks what they should like.

Ted often-doesn't-like-Jan's-writing Kelly


On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 9:18:22 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Patrick Moore 'doubts' or 'disagrees with' Jan's tire theories.  His 
> fundamental gripe is against absolutism:
>
> "it's just calling these "best" that troubles me"
>
> Patrick Moore did not present a quote from Jan Heine as the basis of his 
> argument, and I think that's where his 'disagreement' may be off base.  Jan 
> always (in my experience) uses typical qualifiers about his findings and 
> observations.  I would bet a dollar that Jan Heine never said "51mm is the 
> best width for 559 rims", or anything else like that.  Jan has a preference 
> for wheels that have a similar second moment of inertia: 559xFAT, 
> 584xMEDIUM, 622xNARROW.  Patrick Moore just likes what he likes, with no 
> particular interest in a unifying theory: 559xNARROW, 571xNARROW, 622xFAT.  
> Patrick Moore doesn't value speed all that much, preferring instead the 
> feel of riding slow uphill fixed and the feel of riding slow downhill 
> fixed.  Jan writes about objective facts, like the fact that a 559xFAT tire 
> can be just as fast as 559xNARROW.  Jan also writes about subjective 
> preferences.  Since 559xFAT is no slower, he prefers it.  It's totally cool 
> that Patrick Moore prefers 559xNARROW.  Jan 'publishes' his vigorous 
> approval for Patrick Moore's subjective preferences by commissioning and 
> selling the very tire Patrick Moore prefers.  I see no disagreement at 
> all.  
>
> Bill ride-what-you-like Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 7:53:33 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Interesting opinion, and interesting fact -- I assume -- about Singer and 
>> Herse using 700C with narrower tires for "go fast rando machines." 
>>
>> Regarding the moment of inertia, I don't doubt that the feel of certain 
>> combinations of diameter and width correspond across the spectrum; it's 
>> just calling these "best" that troubles me. 
>>
>> Again, my main reason for doubting such "optimums" is that my own 
>> handling benchmarks are 559-wheeled or 571-wheeled bikes with tires no more 
>> than 30 mm (I'd happily go 32 but the Elk Passes max out on my rims at 
>> about 29 mm; to be precise: on 19 mm outside rims, 27 mm; on 21 mm outside 
>> rims, 29 mm; so I daresay they'd reach 32 on, say, 23 mm outside rims); but 
>> ~28 mm feels just fine for pavement and light dirt/gravel, and certainly 
>> the bikes handle superbly to my senses. At any rate, I like their handling, 
>> even with 22 mm tires, better than say the Ram with 29 mm tires, and 
>> certainly better than the Sam with 33 mm tires. I got rid of Ram and Sam in 
>> part because handling was not up to what I expected from my 26ers.
>>
>> And once again, I can certainly tell the difference between a 26er mtb 
>> with light wheels and a 29er with light wheels, but I can't say that I 
>> prefer the 559 X 50-60 to a 622 X 50-60, still less that one is "better".
>>
>> Patrick Moore, who is trying to keep an open mind about it all.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 4:30 PM, John Hawrylak  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought BQ listed the widths by the moment of inertia, a 650x42 having 
>>> about the same as a 700x32.   Same MI is expected to provide similar 
>>> handling.
>>>
>>> Also Mike Kone has some "words of wisdom"(his *Our Philosophy Note*) on 
>>> 650 vs 700 for a brevet type bike on his Boulder Bicycle site, along with 
>>> 'skinny' tubing.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://boulderbicycle.bike/Boulder-Bicycle-Rando-Overview-and-Pricing.html
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown NJ
>>>  
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>> Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Steve Palincsar]

We're talking here about "Wheel Size, Tire Width and Handling," Bicycle 
Quarterly Winter 2017, p. 84-85, I presume.


In this article, Jan says: "If the above theory is correct, I should not 
notice much of a difference since the diameter of the wheels remains 
unchanged.  That isn't how it turned out.  The larger wheels and 
narrower tires made a noticeable change in the Firefly's handling.  
Whereas the bike is a paragon of perfect behavior with its 26" wheels -- 
it goes straight without requiring attention, yet corners with precision 
-- it felt a little wayward with the 650B front wheel.  It tended to 
wander a bit when going straight.  And in corners, it was harder to stay 
on a chosen line.  The handling was still acceptable, but when I 
reinstalled the 26" wheel, there was no doubt which I preferred."   A 
table indicates optimum tire width for each wheel size "for best 
handling," adding the newly arrived at conclusion that wheel sizes 
should be adjusted to factor in tire and rim weight (gyroscopic 
stability) as well as tire width (pneumatic trail).


I think from the above excerpt we can see how "perfect behavior" and 
"optimum handling" are defined.


On 12/16/2017 12:18 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
Patrick Moore 'doubts' or 'disagrees with' Jan's tire theories.  His 
fundamental gripe is against absolutism:


"it's just calling these "best" that troubles me"

Patrick Moore did not present a quote from Jan Heine as the basis of 
his argument, and I think that's where his 'disagreement' may be off 
base.  Jan always (in my experience) uses typical qualifiers about his 
findings and observations.  I would bet a dollar that Jan Heine never 
said "51mm is the best width for 559 rims", or anything else like 
that.  Jan has a preference for wheels that have a similar second 
moment of inertia: 559xFAT, 584xMEDIUM, 622xNARROW.  Patrick Moore 
just likes what he likes, with no particular interest in a unifying 
theory: 559xNARROW, 571xNARROW, 622xFAT.  Patrick Moore doesn't value 
speed all that much, preferring instead the feel of riding slow uphill 
fixed and the feel of riding slow downhill fixed. Jan writes about 
objective facts, like the fact that a 559xFAT tire can be just as fast 
as 559xNARROW.  Jan also writes about subjective preferences.  Since 
559xFAT is no slower, he prefers it.  It's totally cool that Patrick 
Moore prefers 559xNARROW. Jan 'publishes' his vigorous approval for 
Patrick Moore's subjective preferences by commissioning and selling 
the very tire Patrick Moore prefers.  I see no disagreement at all.


Bill ride-what-you-like Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 7:53:33 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Interesting opinion, and interesting fact -- I assume -- about
Singer and Herse using 700C with narrower tires for "go fast rando
machines."

Regarding the moment of inertia, I don't doubt that the feel of
certain combinations of diameter and width correspond across the
spectrum; it's just calling these "best" that troubles me.

Again, my main reason for doubting such "optimums" is that my own
handling benchmarks are 559-wheeled or 571-wheeled bikes with
tires no more than 30 mm (I'd happily go 32 but the Elk Passes max
out on my rims at about 29 mm; to be precise: on 19 mm outside
rims, 27 mm; on 21 mm outside rims, 29 mm; so I daresay they'd
reach 32 on, say, 23 mm outside rims); but ~28 mm feels just fine
for pavement and light dirt/gravel, and certainly the bikes handle
superbly to my senses. At any rate, I like their handling, even
with 22 mm tires, better than say the Ram with 29 mm tires, and
certainly better than the Sam with 33 mm tires. I got rid of Ram
and Sam in part because handling was not up to what I expected
from my 26ers.

And once again, I can certainly tell the difference between a 26er
mtb with light wheels and a 29er with light wheels, but I can't
say that I prefer the 559 X 50-60 to a 622 X 50-60, still less
that one is "better".



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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Bill Lindsay]

Patrick Moore 'doubts' or 'disagrees with' Jan's tire theories.  His 
fundamental gripe is against absolutism:

"it's just calling these "best" that troubles me"

Patrick Moore did not present a quote from Jan Heine as the basis of his 
argument, and I think that's where his 'disagreement' may be off base.  Jan 
always (in my experience) uses typical qualifiers about his findings and 
observations.  I would bet a dollar that Jan Heine never said "51mm is the 
best width for 559 rims", or anything else like that.  Jan has a preference 
for wheels that have a similar second moment of inertia: 559xFAT, 
584xMEDIUM, 622xNARROW.  Patrick Moore just likes what he likes, with no 
particular interest in a unifying theory: 559xNARROW, 571xNARROW, 622xFAT.  
Patrick Moore doesn't value speed all that much, preferring instead the 
feel of riding slow uphill fixed and the feel of riding slow downhill 
fixed.  Jan writes about objective facts, like the fact that a 559xFAT tire 
can be just as fast as 559xNARROW.  Jan also writes about subjective 
preferences.  Since 559xFAT is no slower, he prefers it.  It's totally cool 
that Patrick Moore prefers 559xNARROW.  Jan 'publishes' his vigorous 
approval for Patrick Moore's subjective preferences by commissioning and 
selling the very tire Patrick Moore prefers.  I see no disagreement at 
all.  

Bill ride-what-you-like Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 7:53:33 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Interesting opinion, and interesting fact -- I assume -- about Singer and 
> Herse using 700C with narrower tires for "go fast rando machines." 
>
> Regarding the moment of inertia, I don't doubt that the feel of certain 
> combinations of diameter and width correspond across the spectrum; it's 
> just calling these "best" that troubles me. 
>
> Again, my main reason for doubting such "optimums" is that my own handling 
> benchmarks are 559-wheeled or 571-wheeled bikes with tires no more than 30 
> mm (I'd happily go 32 but the Elk Passes max out on my rims at about 29 mm; 
> to be precise: on 19 mm outside rims, 27 mm; on 21 mm outside rims, 29 mm; 
> so I daresay they'd reach 32 on, say, 23 mm outside rims); but ~28 mm feels 
> just fine for pavement and light dirt/gravel, and certainly the bikes 
> handle superbly to my senses. At any rate, I like their handling, even with 
> 22 mm tires, better than say the Ram with 29 mm tires, and certainly better 
> than the Sam with 33 mm tires. I got rid of Ram and Sam in part because 
> handling was not up to what I expected from my 26ers.
>
> And once again, I can certainly tell the difference between a 26er mtb 
> with light wheels and a 29er with light wheels, but I can't say that I 
> prefer the 559 X 50-60 to a 622 X 50-60, still less that one is "better".
>
> Patrick Moore, who is trying to keep an open mind about it all.
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 4:30 PM, John Hawrylak  > wrote:
>
>> I thought BQ listed the widths by the moment of inertia, a 650x42 having 
>> about the same as a 700x32.   Same MI is expected to provide similar 
>> handling.
>>
>> Also Mike Kone has some "words of wisdom"(his *Our Philosophy Note*) on 
>> 650 vs 700 for a brevet type bike on his Boulder Bicycle site, along with 
>> 'skinny' tubing.
>>
>> http://boulderbicycle.bike/Boulder-Bicycle-Rando-Overview-and-Pricing.html
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>  
>>
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>
>
>
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> **
> **
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting opinion, and interesting fact -- I assume -- about Singer and
Herse using 700C with narrower tires for "go fast rando machines."

Regarding the moment of inertia, I don't doubt that the feel of certain
combinations of diameter and width correspond across the spectrum; it's
just calling these "best" that troubles me.

Again, my main reason for doubting such "optimums" is that my own handling
benchmarks are 559-wheeled or 571-wheeled bikes with tires no more than 30
mm (I'd happily go 32 but the Elk Passes max out on my rims at about 29 mm;
to be precise: on 19 mm outside rims, 27 mm; on 21 mm outside rims, 29 mm;
so I daresay they'd reach 32 on, say, 23 mm outside rims); but ~28 mm feels
just fine for pavement and light dirt/gravel, and certainly the bikes
handle superbly to my senses. At any rate, I like their handling, even with
22 mm tires, better than say the Ram with 29 mm tires, and certainly better
than the Sam with 33 mm tires. I got rid of Ram and Sam in part because
handling was not up to what I expected from my 26ers.

And once again, I can certainly tell the difference between a 26er mtb with
light wheels and a 29er with light wheels, but I can't say that I prefer
the 559 X 50-60 to a 622 X 50-60, still less that one is "better".

Patrick Moore, who is trying to keep an open mind about it all.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 4:30 PM, John Hawrylak 
wrote:

> I thought BQ listed the widths by the moment of inertia, a 650x42 having
> about the same as a 700x32.   Same MI is expected to provide similar
> handling.
>
> Also Mike Kone has some "words of wisdom"(his *Our Philosophy Note*) on
> 650 vs 700 for a brevet type bike on his Boulder Bicycle site, along with
> 'skinny' tubing.
>
> http://boulderbicycle.bike/Boulder-Bicycle-Rando-Overview-and-Pricing.html
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[John Hawrylak]

I thought BQ listed the widths by the moment of inertia, a 650x42 having 
about the same as a 700x32.   Same MI is expected to provide similar 
handling.

Also Mike Kone has some "words of wisdom"(his *Our Philosophy Note*) on 650 
vs 700 for a brevet type bike on his Boulder Bicycle site, along with 
'skinny' tubing.

http://boulderbicycle.bike/Boulder-Bicycle-Rando-Overview-and-Pricing.html

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Evan E.]

Patrick Moore asked: "So what does 'optimum' mean here?"

There is, of course, no such thing as "optimum width" for a 650B tire, 
because different riders have different druthers. But if I recall, Jan took 
pains to test different tire widths until he determined what is, according 
to him, the optimum width of 650B tire -- that is, for most riders, most of 
the time, on the surfaces that most of us ride on (such as bumpy roads, 
cracked pavement, etc.). For what it's worth, I'm perfectly happy with 
650x38s on my city commuter. But I'm even happier with 650x42s on my road 
bike. If Tom likes his Hutchinson Confrérie des 650B tires at about 33mm 
wide, awesome!

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Garth]

What ! ... and that's what, about what !  

sheesh ... glad we got that cleared up !  

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 11:23:33 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Say, what?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Justin, Oakland]

I personally didn’t enjoy smaller than 42 on my Bleriot and refuse smaller only 
Saluki
 However if I were to get any of he smaller ones I would get the SOMA B lines 
if they still exist. Great great tires. 

-J

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Jim M.]

I run Compass Loup Loups 650x38 on my converted Merckx Corsa. It's a fast, 
nimble frame and the Loup Loups are light and roll well to complement the 
frame characteristics. I haven't tried a narrower tire because with the 
LL's the bike is my ideal combination of cushy and quick.

jim m
walnut creek, ca 

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 6:26:47 PM UTC-8, Tom Goodmann wrote:
>
> I'm the current happy rider of a Curt Goodrich-built Proto Saluki (my 
> friend from this list and I have already traded the bike back and forth 
> once between us) shod with Gran Bois 42s.  It's a nimble and quick-turning, 
> and I'd like to play around with tire sizes a bit to see how "roady" I can 
> ride it.  I would like to have tried the 32s once offered from Compass, and 
> wonder why 650b tires of that dimension proved undesirable. Those tires, at 
> least, are currently unavailable, although I know there are nominal 38s 
> (Pacenti Moro; Col la Vie) and a few 35s out there too. Is the general 
> thinking that I'd be giving up too much of the advantage of this wheel size 
> in pushing the lower limits of tire dimensions?  Thanks for views and 
> advice. Tom--in Miami where it is perfect riding weather right now
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Patrick Moore]

Say, what?

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Garth  wrote:

> Yes , just ride whatever you want !
>
> "Optimal" depends on one's judgement of what that means. To call that a
> "standard", when such judgement is always changing, such a "standard" would
> be no standard at all because a true standard would have to be universal
> and apply to everyone all the time, it would have to be absolute,
> unchangeable.
>
>
> So a personal preference does not even remotely make a standard.
>
> This does not pass any judgement of such preferences either, let them be
> for whom they be and enjoy the ride ☺
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Garth]

Yes , just ride whatever you want !  

"Optimal" depends on one's judgement of what that means. To call that a 
"standard", when such judgement is always changing, such a "standard" would be 
no standard at all because a true standard would have to be universal and apply 
to everyone all the time, it would have to be absolute, unchangeable. 


So a personal preference does not even remotely make a standard.  

This does not pass any judgement of such preferences either, let them be for 
whom they be and enjoy the ride ☺

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Patrick Moore]

Tangential, but related: Jan again claims to have found the best
width/diameter combinations. But is there really any objective standard for
this, given riders' different preferences for handling? I ask because for
me, the 559 bsd wheeled road bikes Grant designed feel perfect with 28 mm
tires; and while I certainly can feel differences between 26ers and 29ers,
I can't say that 559 X 2" tires handle better than 622 X 2" tires.

So what does "optimum" mean here?

This question leaves out any other benefits than supposed handling
advantages from wider tires.

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Evan E.  wrote:

> ...) And in fact, I think that a few years ago Jan Heine of Bicycle
> Quarterly/Compass determined, through testing, that 42mm is the optimum
> width for performance on 650B tires.
>

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Tom Goodmann]

Thanks to all for your views and offers; I've ordered a pair of the 
Hutchinsons, and look forward to trying them out. I've not yet tried 
running tires without tubes--something new--that would go toward my idea to 
make this a lighter build.  It may well be, as it seems so far, the One 
Bike to Rule Them All. --Tom

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 6:34:00 AM UTC-5, Belopsky wrote:
>
> I'll sell you a pair of these: 650x36, 
> http://www.cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/T650_F35_SS.html
> extra leger, red. Mounted once. $110 shipped
>
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:26:47 PM UTC-5, Tom Goodmann wrote:
>>
>> I'm the current happy rider of a Curt Goodrich-built Proto Saluki (my 
>> friend from this list and I have already traded the bike back and forth 
>> once between us) shod with Gran Bois 42s.  It's a nimble and quick-turning, 
>> and I'd like to play around with tire sizes a bit to see how "roady" I can 
>> ride it.  I would like to have tried the 32s once offered from Compass, and 
>> wonder why 650b tires of that dimension proved undesirable. Those tires, at 
>> least, are currently unavailable, although I know there are nominal 38s 
>> (Pacenti Moro; Col la Vie) and a few 35s out there too. Is the general 
>> thinking that I'd be giving up too much of the advantage of this wheel size 
>> in pushing the lower limits of tire dimensions?  Thanks for views and 
>> advice. Tom--in Miami where it is perfect riding weather right now
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Belopsky]

I'll sell you a pair of these: 650x36, 
http://www.cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/T650_F35_SS.html
extra leger, red. Mounted once. $110 shipped

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:26:47 PM UTC-5, Tom Goodmann wrote:
>
> I'm the current happy rider of a Curt Goodrich-built Proto Saluki (my 
> friend from this list and I have already traded the bike back and forth 
> once between us) shod with Gran Bois 42s.  It's a nimble and quick-turning, 
> and I'd like to play around with tire sizes a bit to see how "roady" I can 
> ride it.  I would like to have tried the 32s once offered from Compass, and 
> wonder why 650b tires of that dimension proved undesirable. Those tires, at 
> least, are currently unavailable, although I know there are nominal 38s 
> (Pacenti Moro; Col la Vie) and a few 35s out there too. Is the general 
> thinking that I'd be giving up too much of the advantage of this wheel size 
> in pushing the lower limits of tire dimensions?  Thanks for views and 
> advice. Tom--in Miami where it is perfect riding weather right now
>

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Nick Payne]

I have one lightweight custom 650b machine shod with the 
Hutchinson Confrérie des 650B, which measure out at 33mm wide on Velocity 
A23 rims. I think they ride very nicely - I'm fairly light at 65kg, and I 
run them at 40psi front and 60psi rear. They also roll out pretty well - I 
take that bike on on some of the bunch training rides with the local racing 
cyclists. I'm running them tubeless on the A23s.

You can buy them for under $30/tyre from XXCycle in France: 
https://www.xxcycle.com/tyre-hutchinson-confrerie-des-650b-275-650-b-ts,,en.php

I also have other 650b machines using the Hetre 650Bx42mm tyres and Compass 
650Bx48mm. Although there's undoubtedly more shock absorption with the 
fatter tyres, for rides that are largely on sealed roads I prefer the 
Hutchinson tyres.

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[lum gim fong]

I like 38-42mm wide 650b for safety reasons.

I have fallen and been injured when using skinnier tires that got hung up in 
longitudinal road and sidewalk cracks. The wide 38-42 tires dont get caught on 
the cracks .They roll over.
Would have to be pretty wide for them to get stuck in a crack. More safety fir 
me.
Plus, they can be run at lower pressures and that helps tires up and over lips 
between asphalt and concrete gutter, instead of a 120psi tire not rolling up 
over tge lip and staying on asphalt while the bike dumps you over. Not that one 
should be riding this way but sometimes you find yourself among these road 
hazards.

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[RBW] Re: 650b tires: the fat and the skinny about them?

[Evan E.]

Tom,

If you really want narrow 650B tires, you can buy Grand Bois Cypres 650Bx32 
tires from the company's website 

 
in Japan. But I think that, yes, if you go wider, such as the 650Bx38 Loup 
Loup Pass from Compass, or the 650Bx38 Pari-Moto, you'll get the 
combination of comfort, speed, and traction that 650B tires offer. (Col de 
La Vies are far less supple and plush.) And in fact, I think that a few 
years ago Jan Heine of Bicycle Quarterly/Compass determined, through 
testing, that 42mm is the optimum width for performance on 650B tires. This 
is especially true on rough roads where a wide tire soaks up bumps that 
would, on narrower tires, cause "suspension losses" that slow you down. So: 
your current tires might be the ideal width, after all.

Evan E.
SF, CA



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