[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

1-800-345-3918  Operators are standing by.  I called yesterday to talk 
about raw Hillborne forks on the Web Specials.  I had a delightful 
conversation with Will, who is travelling to Taiwan this weekend to oversee 
the assembly of our Ready to Ride Appaloosas.  After that pleasant chat, 
Will took a few measurements for me and talked me out of buying a raw 
Hillborne fork.  Give them a call and let them sort things out for you. 
 Will is probably your best expert for everything there is to know about 
the Appaloosa.  He will have all the info you need to aid your decision 
whether a Ready to Ride Appaloosa will be right for you.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 8:49:05 AM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:
>
> Any idea how wide those Choco bars are? I wonder if the larger sizes will 
> have wider bars!? 
> I have the wide Bosco's on my Clementine, but I had chance to see one of 
> the ready to rides @ a local bike shop last week, it was the same size as 
> my medium,  but the bars were noticeably narrower.  In my opinion they were 
> no bueno! If these bike come with less then 56 wide chocos in the 51cm RTR, 
> that would encourage me to wait for a frame only option or get one of the 
> new Hunqs when they come out!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Patrick Kelly]

Did you remember to inform Will that we're expecting hourly posts on
the blug about how the assembly work is going? :)

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> 1-800-345-3918  Operators are standing by.  I called yesterday to talk about
> raw Hillborne forks on the Web Specials.  I had a delightful conversation
> with Will, who is travelling to Taiwan this weekend to oversee the assembly
> of our Ready to Ride Appaloosas.  After that pleasant chat, Will took a few
> measurements for me and talked me out of buying a raw Hillborne fork.  Give
> them a call and let them sort things out for you.  Will is probably your
> best expert for everything there is to know about the Appaloosa.  He will
> have all the info you need to aid your decision whether a Ready to Ride
> Appaloosa will be right for you.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[sameness]

Reminded me of a line from yesterday's RBW email:

Just call for any reason, even if you don't want to buy anything.
>

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 9:41:49 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> 1-800-345-3918  Operators are standing by.
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[masmojo]

Any idea how wide those Choco bars are? I wonder if the larger sizes will have 
wider bars!?
I have the wide Bosco's on my Clementine, but I had chance to see one of the 
ready to rides @ a local bike shop last week, it was the same size as my 
medium,  but the bars were noticeably narrower.  In my opinion they were no 
bueno! If these bike come with less then 56 wide chocos in the 51cm RTR, that 
would encourage me to wait for a frame only option or get one of the new Hunqs 
when they come out!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Patrick Moore]

A propos of the other thread on bar/stem/saddle positioning: this is a very
good observation.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dave Johnston  wrote:

> . Drop Bar positioning is much more sensitive to a cm here or there. The
> upright bars seem much less sensitive to a cm fore - back or up or down.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Dave Johnston]

I should add that the real issue with using drops on any of the Riv 6deg 
slope bikes, is the bigger jumps in top tube lengths between sizes. Drop 
Bar positioning is much more sensitive to a cm here or there. The upright 
bars seem much less sensitive to a cm fore - back or up or down.

-Dave J

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 11:44:50 AM UTC-5, Dave Johnston wrote:
>
> I see no reason you couldn't put drops on the Joe, as long as you sized 
> the bike for them.  I don't see much difference in Geometry between the San 
> Marcos, the Sam and the Joe. I see quite a few Sams and San Marcos pictured 
> with drop bars. The Joe seems about 1cm longer in the top tube than the Sam 
> and 1.5cm longer than a San Marcos so you might need a shorter stem, or you 
> could downsize to a more compact style geometry. So it might actually be 
> easier to obtain a bars below saddle position (long and low) on a properly 
> sized Sam than on the San Marcos. 
>
> Just as a comparison to my 56cm Rambouilet with a 56 cm top tube with 2deg 
> upslope, and a 72deg seat angle.
> I could order a 51cm Joe that would have a 56.5cm top tube and a 71.5deg 
> seat angle, so the reach to the bars would be about the same. The 51cm 
> frame has a 6 deg top tube slope that would bring the headset exit point 
> about 1cm lower than the Ram. I have plenty of quill on my Nitto Tech Dlx 
> still in the steerer so I could just raise the stem a cm and have the exact 
> same bar position. 
>
> I will note that the size fitting charts recommendations on the riv pages 
> do this, put someone on a 56cm Ram on a 51cm Joe.  
>
> -Dave J
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 10:56:01 AM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>>
>> I ride with bars 1.3 below saddle.
>> That maxes out my blue Sam. But I'm at 1.3 below saddle and it is great.
>> If I wanted lower I'd have to cut the steerer.
>> But I don't want lower. So it works out great.
>> However, when I bought it I didn't know you couldn't go any lower on this 
>> bike. If I was someone who liked lower, I would have had to return the 
>> frame. 
>>
>> The Joe, and all the other sub-2k$ frames look like you can't get 
>> handlebar height below saddle. Someone would have to confirm. They look 
>> like they have really high exit points, sloping tubes, and steerer stacks. 
>> If this is true, then there would  no longer be sub-2k$ RBW frames 
>> available, new, for people who like riding bars below saddle. Just making 
>> an observation. Someone would have to confirm.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Steve Palincsar]

What's the unit?  Inches?  centimeters?

On 01/05/2016 10:56 AM, Lungimsam wrote:

I ride with bars 1.3 below saddle.
That maxes out my blue Sam. But I'm at 1.3 below saddle and it is great.


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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Dave Johnston]

I see no reason you couldn't put drops on the Joe, as long as you sized the 
bike for them.  I don't see much difference in Geometry between the San 
Marcos, the Sam and the Joe. I see quite a few Sams and San Marcos pictured 
with drop bars. The Joe seems about 1cm longer in the top tube than the Sam 
and 1.5cm longer than a San Marcos so you might need a shorter stem, or you 
could downsize to a more compact style geometry. So it might actually be 
easier to obtain a bars below saddle position (long and low) on a properly 
sized Sam than on the San Marcos. 

Just as a comparison to my 56cm Rambouilet with a 56 cm top tube with 2deg 
upslope, and a 72deg seat angle.
I could order a 51cm Joe that would have a 56.5cm top tube and a 71.5deg 
seat angle, so the reach to the bars would be about the same. The 51cm 
frame has a 6 deg top tube slope that would bring the headset exit point 
about 1cm lower than the Ram. I have plenty of quill on my Nitto Tech Dlx 
still in the steerer so I could just raise the stem a cm and have the exact 
same bar position. 

I will note that the size fitting charts recommendations on the riv pages 
do this, put someone on a 56cm Ram on a 51cm Joe.  

-Dave J

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 10:56:01 AM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> I ride with bars 1.3 below saddle.
> That maxes out my blue Sam. But I'm at 1.3 below saddle and it is great.
> If I wanted lower I'd have to cut the steerer.
> But I don't want lower. So it works out great.
> However, when I bought it I didn't know you couldn't go any lower on this 
> bike. If I was someone who liked lower, I would have had to return the 
> frame. 
>
> The Joe, and all the other sub-2k$ frames look like you can't get 
> handlebar height below saddle. Someone would have to confirm. They look 
> like they have really high exit points, sloping tubes, and steerer stacks. 
> If this is true, then there would  no longer be sub-2k$ RBW frames 
> available, new, for people who like riding bars below saddle. Just making 
> an observation. Someone would have to confirm.
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Elisabeth Sherwood]

A little late to the conversation, and this is (I swear) academic for me as 
well, but was someone able to find a geometry chart for the Joe? I clicked 
through the link that _said_ there was geometry, and I read through it 
carefully several times, and yet still I couldn't find it or another link 
to it. I'm probably losing my mind, but can someone direct me to the 
geometry?

Many thanks,

-- Liz


On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 7:46:23 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am so guilty of this!!  I've got a perfectly good bike (Surly Karate 
Monkey with Deore groupset) but I still find myself getting excited when I 
see other bikes and I'm constantly planning my "next build", both in my 
mind and on BikeCad.  I think my problem is that deep down, I want a 
classic looking bike (ie, not a modern MTB) with silver components (not 
black, again like modern MTB).  Some Riv models come close but there are 
still issues for me and I think custom is the only way to get what I truly 
want and at this point I'm not even sure what that is, exactly.  Probably a 
cross between a Bombadil & a Hunqapillar with maybe some Atlantis thrown 
in.  



On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 6:47:53 AM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
>  some of us become obsessed with creating/finding/buying that Goldilocks 
> bike, the one that will make us happiest.
>
> I know I've had my head turned more than once by a new model, and been 
> well down the road of imagining a build, before reminding myself that I 
> already have a bicycle (or two!) that does 93-110% of what this fabulous 
> new one does. My New Year's resolution is to continue to reign in this 
> lust, and even to let go of a couple of bikes. It's hard, because bikes are 
> such wonderful machines! But for me, at some point, I cross a line and 
> having too much can start to work against all the fun and functionality, 
> even if only in subtle ways. In my heart, I aspire to be one of those who 
> live with one bicycle. 
>
>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Garth]

   Why not ride a drop bar Joe ?  Of course you can and set it up that 
way.  Take a look at the frame from the side and picture the bike with a 
negative rise stem and drop bars. No cutting or modification is necessary 
.  The 6 degree TT rise and HT extension is the same as on their other 
like-made frames.  


On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 1:47:41 AM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> So for a new drop bar Riv-bike that can have bars set 1-2cm below saddle, 
> one would need to buy an Atlantis, Hilsen, or Roadeo at this point in 
> Riv-time. Or cut the steerer tube down on a Sam, Clem, or Joe?

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Will]

I have an Atlantis. Love it to death. Great bike. 

I was hoping the Appaloosa was going to be a Hilborne with canti-posts and 
more tire clearance. It is that. But it is also an extreme wheelbase bike. 
I'm not buying it... and I wanted Rivs for my boys. 

But 53 cm chainstays? Nope. Double top tubes... Nope. What happened to the 
basics? 


On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 6:46:23 PM UTC-6, dougP wrote:
>
> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes they are.  How is that germane to the post I made?

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 10:54:09 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 01/05/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: 
> > In my opinion, anybody who wants to buy a sub $2000 steel frameset 
> > that allows them to get their handlebars LOW can find one.  If they 
> > love their handlebars LOW, then Rivendell Bicycle Works is probably 
> > not their best first choice.  LOW handlebar road bikes are not that 
> > difficult to find in the marketplace.  If there is somebody who is 
> > fiercely loyal to Rivendell and refuse to buy a bike anywhere else, 
> > and are equally intent on slamming that stem, then they are going to 
> > have to make a choice. 
> > 
>
> The Riv customs are still available, aren't they? 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/05/2016 01:55 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Yes they are.  How is that germane to the post I made?


Making choices.  Riv customs are almost never mentioned anymore, and I 
wasn't sure they were even still available.  Since they are, for 
"fiercely loyal to Rivendell and intent on slamming stems" customers 
they should be one of the choices considered, even though they've been 
de-emphasized in the past 10 years or so.   Along with all the many, 
many other steel framesets out there.

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 10:54:09 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On 01/05/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> In my opinion, anybody who wants to buy a sub $2000 steel frameset
> that allows them to get their handlebars LOW can find one.  If they
> love their handlebars LOW, then Rivendell Bicycle Works is probably
> not their best first choice.  LOW handlebar road bikes are not that
> difficult to find in the marketplace.  If there is somebody who is
> fiercely loyal to Rivendell and refuse to buy a bike anywhere else,
> and are equally intent on slamming that stem, then they are
going to
> have to make a choice.
>

The Riv customs are still available, aren't they?




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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

OK, my post was following on the conversation about SUB-$2000 framesets. 
 That's why I said sub $2000 in my post.  A custom Rivendell frameset  is 
not sub $2000

I also said that people who desperately want really low handlebars on their 
steel bike should probably not come to Rivendell first.  In my opinion, 
Rivendell Bicycle Works is not the best shop to come to if you seek really 
low handlebars.  It is my opinion that it is easy to find a nice steel 
frameset that allows very low handlebars for under $2000.  Trying to force 
a negative rise stem and drop bars onto a Joe Appaloosa would be a very odd 
way to get your bars low, in my opinion.  

Furthermore, a Rivendell custom is not the relationship many people want or 
expect when buying a bespoke frameset.  A Rivendell Custom is not where 
you, the customer tell Rivendell exactly what to build.  A Rivendell Custom 
is where you, the customer, talk to Grant, and Grant elects to design a 
frameset for you, or elects not to.  If you plopped $3500 on the counter 
and insisted on a bike with the bars 10cm below the saddle, Grant would 
hand you your money back, and advise you of many excellent framebuilders 
who would take your business.  Somebody who was fiercely loyal to Rivendell 
and wants the bars 4 or 5cm below the saddle can buy a Roadeo, or a custom. 
 Neither of those is sub-$2000, but the options exist for not-excessive 
amounts of handlebar drop.  



On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 11:05:42 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 01/05/2016 01:55 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Yes they are.  How is that germane to the post I made?
>
>
> Making choices.  Riv customs are almost never mentioned anymore, and I 
> wasn't sure they were even still available.  Since they are, for "fiercely 
> loyal to Rivendell and intent on slamming stems" customers they should be 
> one of the choices considered, even though they've been de-emphasized in 
> the past 10 years or so.   Along with all the many, many other steel 
> framesets out there.
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 10:54:09 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote: 
>>
>>
>> On 01/05/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: 
>> > In my opinion, anybody who wants to buy a sub $2000 steel frameset 
>> > that allows them to get their handlebars LOW can find one.  If they 
>> > love their handlebars LOW, then Rivendell Bicycle Works is probably 
>> > not their best first choice.  LOW handlebar road bikes are not that 
>> > difficult to find in the marketplace.  If there is somebody who is 
>> > fiercely loyal to Rivendell and refuse to buy a bike anywhere else, 
>> > and are equally intent on slamming that stem, then they are going to 
>> > have to make a choice. 
>> > 
>>
>> The Riv customs are still available, aren't they? 
>>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/05/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
In my opinion, anybody who wants to buy a sub $2000 steel frameset 
that allows them to get their handlebars LOW can find one.  If they 
love their handlebars LOW, then Rivendell Bicycle Works is probably 
not their best first choice.  LOW handlebar road bikes are not that 
difficult to find in the marketplace.  If there is somebody who is 
fiercely loyal to Rivendell and refuse to buy a bike anywhere else, 
and are equally intent on slamming that stem, then they are going to 
have to make a choice.




The Riv customs are still available, aren't they?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Joe Bernard]

I could ride a 46 Joe with dropbars, or a 51 with pullbacks. I'm not sure how 
we got to the idea that certain Rivs can't be outfitted with whatever bars 
people like. The smaller frame will have a shorter top- and head-tube, which 
gets them closer and below the saddle if you want. Easy!

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

In my opinion, anybody who wants to buy a sub $2000 steel frameset that 
allows them to get their handlebars LOW can find one.  If they love their 
handlebars LOW, then Rivendell Bicycle Works is probably not their best 
first choice.  LOW handlebar road bikes are not that difficult to find in 
the marketplace.  If there is somebody who is fiercely loyal to Rivendell 
and refuse to buy a bike anywhere else, and are equally intent on slamming 
that stem, then they are going to have to make a choice.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA  

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 7:56:01 AM UTC-8, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> I ride with bars 1.3 below saddle.
> That maxes out my blue Sam. But I'm at 1.3 below saddle and it is great.
> If I wanted lower I'd have to cut the steerer.
> But I don't want lower. So it works out great.
> However, when I bought it I didn't know you couldn't go any lower on this 
> bike. If I was someone who liked lower, I would have had to return the 
> frame. 
>
> The Joe, and all the other sub-2k$ frames look like you can't get 
> handlebar height below saddle. Someone would have to confirm. They look 
> like they have really high exit points, sloping tubes, and steerer stacks. 
> If this is true, then there would  no longer be sub-2k$ RBW frames 
> available, new, for people who like riding bars below saddle. Just making 
> an observation. Someone would have to confirm.
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Lungimsam]

I ride with bars 1.3 below saddle.
That maxes out my blue Sam. But I'm at 1.3 below saddle and it is great.
If I wanted lower I'd have to cut the steerer.
But I don't want lower. So it works out great.
However, when I bought it I didn't know you couldn't go any lower on this bike. 
If I was someone who liked lower, I would have had to return the frame. 

The Joe, and all the other sub-2k$ frames look like you can't get handlebar 
height below saddle. Someone would have to confirm. They look like they have 
really high exit points, sloping tubes, and steerer stacks. If this is true, 
then there would  no longer be sub-2k$ RBW frames available, new, for people 
who like riding bars below saddle. Just making an observation. Someone would 
have to confirm.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Eric Norris]

Richard Sachs was the same way (still is, but for a very limited number of 
customers). I sent him a number of measurements of myself and the bike I was 
riding at the time, and he built a frame that reflected his idea of how a bike 
should be designed. It’s a marvelous bicycle, but not the same bike Grant would 
build, of course.

--Eric N
campyonly...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
@Campyonlyguy


> On Jan 5, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> On 01/05/2016 02:38 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>> 
>> Furthermore, a Rivendell custom is not the relationship many people want or 
>> expect when buying a bespoke frameset.  A Rivendell Custom is not where you, 
>> the customer tell Rivendell exactly what to build.  A Rivendell Custom is 
>> where you, the customer, talk to Grant, and Grant elects to design a 
>> frameset for you, or elects not to.
> 
> That approach to "custom" isn't all that unusual.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/05/2016 02:38 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:


Furthermore, a Rivendell custom is not the relationship many people 
want or expect when buying a bespoke frameset.  A Rivendell Custom is 
not where you, the customer tell Rivendell exactly what to build.  A 
Rivendell Custom is where you, the customer, talk to Grant, and Grant 
elects to design a frameset for you, or elects not to.


That approach to "custom" isn't all that unusual.

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[William deRosset]

Set yhe Appaloosa up as a drop-bar bike? The Appaloosa geometry sure reads like 
a bike designed for upright bars, and it is specified as such. Also, because it 
has a threaded steerer and reinforced head tube lugs, you won't be cutting it 
down to lower the bars. It is compatible with drop bars, in the same sense that 
an early Ritchey mountain bike is compatible.


I think you have outlined the drop-bar options in your post. 

Best Regards,
Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Joe Bernard]

I think the "problem", as it were, for Riv investing in a Ram/Rom budget bike 
now is there's already plenty on the market. Lugged Taiwanese road bikes are 
not hard to find anymore, and in fact Rivendell  worked with SOMA to produce 
one in the San Marcos a couple years ago. I think Grant & Co. would rather work 
on bikes that aren't as easily cross-shopped with some frame at a fire sale 
price on Ebay. Which, incidentally, happened with the San Marcos. They ended up 
competing with online sales of their own design. Annoying!

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

Correct as usual, Joe.  People waiting for a budget Roadeo should buy a 
Black Mountain Cycles road bike today and ride happy forever.  

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I think the "problem", as it were, for Riv investing in a Ram/Rom budget 
> bike now is there's already plenty on the market. Lugged Taiwanese road 
> bikes are not hard to find anymore, and in fact Rivendell  worked with SOMA 
> to produce one in the San Marcos a couple years ago. I think Grant & Co. 
> would rather work on bikes that aren't as easily cross-shopped with some 
> frame at a fire sale price on Ebay. Which, incidentally, happened with the 
> San Marcos. They ended up competing with online sales of their own design. 
> Annoying!

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

While the phrase "sit-up-and-beg" might be fairly descriptive, I feel like 
it reflects a drop bar view of the world, and is perhaps somewhat demeaning 
to riders who are capable of enjoying a more upright stance on a bicycle. 
When riding about on my Clementine, I sit up and beg for no one. I would 
describe my body position as stately, yet convivial. It reflects a more 
observant posture toward one's surroundings, less self-involved as a body 
hunched over the handlebars, eyes forced forward, neck under strain. In the 
convivial stance, one is more apt to notice a neighbor on the side of the 
road; it offers an easier position from which to lift a hand and give a 
friendly wave. This is of course simply the physical manifestation of the 
bicycle designer's philosophy toward riding a bicycle. And those who ride 
this type of design, if they haven't adopted this philosophy already, soon 
appreciate its many charms and advantages--coming full cycle then, a case 
of form follows function. (Or they sell the bicycle.) Note that, as an 
ex-competitive cyclist, when time permits I still enjoy the occasional 
ramble on one of my drop bar bicycles. And not that, hands on the 
Clementine's Bullmoose crossbar, I can't crank up to Main Street automobile 
speeds. And not that I won't compare me some Compass Switchbacks vs. the 
stock Kendas in the near future...life is so nuanced!


On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 6:50:29 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I don't think anybody said 1-2 cm below the saddle was really low.  I 
> called 10cm really low.  I also said the lowest you can easily get on any 
> stock Rivendell would probably be about 4 or 5 cm below with a Roadeo. 
>  Patrick Moore gets that low on his customs also.  I think 4-5cm below is 
> still perfectly normal for Rivendells.  Lungimsam observed that nobody can 
> get a Roadeo fit on a sub $2000 frameset, and that's true.  All the sub 
> $2000 frames are more upright than the Roadeo/Hilsen/Atlantis.  He said he 
> was just making an observation, and it's a correct observation.  Maybe the 
> next step in his thought process will be "there should be a budget 
> Rivendell that fits like a Roadeo".  I know there are a lot of potential 
> Rivendell customers who love the Rivendell vibe, are not going to buy a 
> $4000 complete bike, but still want a "road bike", not a "cruiser".  There 
> are a lot of people that would love to buy an inflation-adjusted Romulus. 
>  That was a $1500 complete bike road bike.  Nothing dumb, but not 
> sit-up-and-beg like the Appaloosa.  The 2016 version of that bike could be 
> a great add, if Rivendell had the cashflow to do it.  I can't wait to sit 
> up and beg on my Appaloosa, and would rather eat glass than put drop bars 
> on it.  I've got drop bar bikes coming out my ears, but for those who 
> don't, a budget Rivendell Road Bike might have a lot of appeal. 
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA 
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 3:09:07 PM UTC-8, RJM wrote:
>>
>> I really don't see 1-2 cm below saddle height as low, certainly not 
>> really low. 
>>
>> The one thing Rivs are, they are usually versatile and can be set up many 
>> different ways. When I had my Sam I had it with drops that started two 
>> inches above saddle height and that eventually went down to 1 cm below the 
>> saddle. I just naturally felt more comfy there...then I switched it 
>> albatross and of course the bars were higher then. The bike worked great 
>> with each setup too.  My Roadeo is going similar to the Sam where I started 
>> a little above saddle height but now I have mark's bars an inch below. Rivs 
>> can certainly be ridden with bars that are lower than saddle height. This 
>> is why quill stems are awesome too.
>>
>> The Joe really seems like a more laid back upright bike though. The long 
>> wheelbase and top tube length kinda point it in that direction. Drop bars 
>> would certainly work for those who don't mind actually riding in the drops. 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes you are preaching to the choir.  

I merely appropriated "sit-up-and-beg" along with "cruiser" as a 
pre-emptive strike to those who think that upright Rivs are not "real 
bikes".  I agree that riders who think that way are missing the boat, and I 
feel sorry for them.  I like your 'stately' description.  My commuter has 
Bosco Bullmooses and is awesome.  I suspect the Choco-Moose bars on my 
forthcoming Appaloosa might prove to be a legitimate all day alternative to 
drop bars for loaded touring.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA


On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 4:25:52 PM UTC-8, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> While the phrase "sit-up-and-beg" might be fairly descriptive, I feel like 
> it reflects a drop bar view of the world, and is perhaps somewhat demeaning 
> to riders who are capable of enjoying a more upright stance on a bicycle. 
> When riding about on my Clementine, I sit up and beg for no one. I would 
> describe my body position as stately, yet convivial. It reflects a more 
> observant posture toward one's surroundings, less self-involved as a body 
> hunched over the handlebars, eyes forced forward, neck under strain. In the 
> convivial stance, one is more apt to notice a neighbor on the side of the 
> road; it offers an easier position from which to lift a hand and give a 
> friendly wave. This is of course simply the physical manifestation of the 
> bicycle designer's philosophy toward riding a bicycle. And those who ride 
> this type of design, if they haven't adopted this philosophy already, soon 
> appreciate its many charms and advantages--coming full cycle then, a case 
> of form follows function. (Or they sell the bicycle.) Note that, as an 
> ex-competitive cyclist, when time permits I still enjoy the occasional 
> ramble on one of my drop bar bicycles. And not that, hands on the 
> Clementine's Bullmoose crossbar, I can't crank up to Main Street automobile 
> speeds. And not that I won't compare me some Compass Switchbacks vs. the 
> stock Kendas in the near future...life is so nuanced!
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 6:50:29 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I don't think anybody said 1-2 cm below the saddle was really low.  I 
>> called 10cm really low.  I also said the lowest you can easily get on any 
>> stock Rivendell would probably be about 4 or 5 cm below with a Roadeo. 
>>  Patrick Moore gets that low on his customs also.  I think 4-5cm below is 
>> still perfectly normal for Rivendells.  Lungimsam observed that nobody can 
>> get a Roadeo fit on a sub $2000 frameset, and that's true.  All the sub 
>> $2000 frames are more upright than the Roadeo/Hilsen/Atlantis.  He said he 
>> was just making an observation, and it's a correct observation.  Maybe the 
>> next step in his thought process will be "there should be a budget 
>> Rivendell that fits like a Roadeo".  I know there are a lot of potential 
>> Rivendell customers who love the Rivendell vibe, are not going to buy a 
>> $4000 complete bike, but still want a "road bike", not a "cruiser".  There 
>> are a lot of people that would love to buy an inflation-adjusted Romulus. 
>>  That was a $1500 complete bike road bike.  Nothing dumb, but not 
>> sit-up-and-beg like the Appaloosa.  The 2016 version of that bike could be 
>> a great add, if Rivendell had the cashflow to do it.  I can't wait to sit 
>> up and beg on my Appaloosa, and would rather eat glass than put drop bars 
>> on it.  I've got drop bar bikes coming out my ears, but for those who 
>> don't, a budget Rivendell Road Bike might have a lot of appeal. 
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 3:09:07 PM UTC-8, RJM wrote:
>>>
>>> I really don't see 1-2 cm below saddle height as low, certainly not 
>>> really low. 
>>>
>>> The one thing Rivs are, they are usually versatile and can be set up 
>>> many different ways. When I had my Sam I had it with drops that started two 
>>> inches above saddle height and that eventually went down to 1 cm below the 
>>> saddle. I just naturally felt more comfy there...then I switched it 
>>> albatross and of course the bars were higher then. The bike worked great 
>>> with each setup too.  My Roadeo is going similar to the Sam where I started 
>>> a little above saddle height but now I have mark's bars an inch below. Rivs 
>>> can certainly be ridden with bars that are lower than saddle height. This 
>>> is why quill stems are awesome too.
>>>
>>> The Joe really seems like a more laid back upright bike though. The long 
>>> wheelbase and top tube length kinda point it in that direction. Drop bars 
>>> would certainly work for those who don't mind actually riding in the drops. 
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

"That approach to "custom" isn't all that unusual. "

agreed.  And since it is not all that not all that unusual, when you 
are intent on buying a custom frameset that allows really low handlebars, 
you would not come talk to Grant first.  You would go talk to somebody who 
likes designing bikes for really low handlebars.  You know that.  You paid 
Mitch Pryor to build you a machine that Mitch Pryor loves building, and is 
expert at building.  That's smart.  You wouldn't even approach Mitch Pryor 
for a folding bike.  Similarly, you wouldn't even approach Grant if you 
wanted really low handlebars.  There are several other reasons you 
personally would never approach Grant for a custom, but those reasons are 
not germane to this topic.   


>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[RJM]

I really don't see 1-2 cm below saddle height as low, certainly not really low. 

The one thing Rivs are, they are usually versatile and can be set up many 
different ways. When I had my Sam I had it with drops that started two inches 
above saddle height and that eventually went down to 1 cm below the saddle. I 
just naturally felt more comfy there...then I switched it albatross and of 
course the bars were higher then. The bike worked great with each setup too.  
My Roadeo is going similar to the Sam where I started a little above saddle 
height but now I have mark's bars an inch below. Rivs can certainly be ridden 
with bars that are lower than saddle height. This is why quill stems are 
awesome too.

The Joe really seems like a more laid back upright bike though. The long 
wheelbase and top tube length kinda point it in that direction. Drop bars would 
certainly work for those who don't mind actually riding in the drops. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't think anybody said 1-2 cm below the saddle was really low.  I 
called 10cm really low.  I also said the lowest you can easily get on any 
stock Rivendell would probably be about 4 or 5 cm below with a Roadeo. 
 Patrick Moore gets that low on his customs also.  I think 4-5cm below is 
still perfectly normal for Rivendells.  Lungimsam observed that nobody can 
get a Roadeo fit on a sub $2000 frameset, and that's true.  All the sub 
$2000 frames are more upright than the Roadeo/Hilsen/Atlantis.  He said he 
was just making an observation, and it's a correct observation.  Maybe the 
next step in his thought process will be "there should be a budget 
Rivendell that fits like a Roadeo".  I know there are a lot of potential 
Rivendell customers who love the Rivendell vibe, are not going to buy a 
$4000 complete bike, but still want a "road bike", not a "cruiser".  There 
are a lot of people that would love to buy an inflation-adjusted Romulus. 
 That was a $1500 complete bike road bike.  Nothing dumb, but not 
sit-up-and-beg like the Appaloosa.  The 2016 version of that bike could be 
a great add, if Rivendell had the cashflow to do it.  I can't wait to sit 
up and beg on my Appaloosa, and would rather eat glass than put drop bars 
on it.  I've got drop bar bikes coming out my ears, but for those who 
don't, a budget Rivendell Road Bike might have a lot of appeal. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA 



On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 3:09:07 PM UTC-8, RJM wrote:
>
> I really don't see 1-2 cm below saddle height as low, certainly not really 
> low. 
>
> The one thing Rivs are, they are usually versatile and can be set up many 
> different ways. When I had my Sam I had it with drops that started two 
> inches above saddle height and that eventually went down to 1 cm below the 
> saddle. I just naturally felt more comfy there...then I switched it 
> albatross and of course the bars were higher then. The bike worked great 
> with each setup too.  My Roadeo is going similar to the Sam where I started 
> a little above saddle height but now I have mark's bars an inch below. Rivs 
> can certainly be ridden with bars that are lower than saddle height. This 
> is why quill stems are awesome too.
>
> The Joe really seems like a more laid back upright bike though. The long 
> wheelbase and top tube length kinda point it in that direction. Drop bars 
> would certainly work for those who don't mind actually riding in the drops. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am assuming Lungisam was joshing a bit there, regarding cut steerer 
tubes--though I have seen this phenomena before.  It would certainly be 
puzzling as to why someone would want to buy an expensive new bike only to 
"modify" it to do something it was not designed to do, especially when 
there are as many or more bicycles in the same company's lineup that do 
exactly the same thing. And as Will points out, no way are you cutting 
through those "napkin rings" on the Clems. Unless it is a price issue, in 
which case, buy used or a different brand or create a "poor person's" 
version.

On somewhat of a tangent, right now at this time, in my opinion, we are 
experiencing an overwhelming number of options in bicycles, so much so as 
to be perhaps partially to blame for a rash of princessandthepeaitis. 
Despite the vast selection of bicycle types, configurations, tires, 
handlebar styles, brakes, racks, lights, fenders, gears (gears!) etc. etc. 
etc., some of us become obsessed with creating/finding/buying that 
Goldilocks bike, the one that will make us happiest.

I know I've had my head turned more than once by a new model, and been well 
down the road of imagining a build, before reminding myself that I already 
have a bicycle (or two!) that does 93-110% of what this fabulous new one 
does. My New Year's resolution is to continue to reign in this lust, and 
even to let go of a couple of bikes. It's hard, because bikes are such 
wonderful machines! But for me, at some point, I cross a line and having 
too much can start to work against all the fun and functionality, even if 
only in subtle ways. In my heart, I aspire to be one of those who live with 
one bicycle. 

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 5:47:16 AM UTC-5, William deRosset wrote:
>
> Set yhe Appaloosa up as a drop-bar bike? The Appaloosa geometry sure reads 
> like a bike designed for upright bars, and it is specified as such. Also, 
> because it has a threaded steerer and reinforced head tube lugs, you won't 
> be cutting it down to lower the bars. It is compatible with drop bars, in 
> the same sense that an early Ritchey mountain bike is compatible.
>
>
> I think you have outlined the drop-bar options in your post. 
>
> Best Regards,
> Will
> William M deRosset
> Fort Collins CO
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[El Sapo]

Very cool bike. If it shares some ride characteristics with the Clem, I 
think the buyers are going to be extremely pleased. I'd want the bullmoose 
choco bars if I a choice. I think I saw it written as coming both w/stem 
and bullmoose in the info, maybe by design? 

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 4:46:23 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:

> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

My interpretation is that the production bikes will have Choco Bullmoose. The 
demo bike pictured in the BLUG just happens to have the separate bar plus stem. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't know if it's been covered already, but this quote just sunk-in for 
me.  A new Nitto front rack made to fit the Joe-Crown.  That's hot!

*The crown is the new RC-06. The bolts on top fit a Tubus rear rack and 
some of the NITTO racks (a new one coming in Spring ‘16), and even without 
a rack, no problem, still looks good.*



On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 4:46:23 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Lungimsam]

So for a new drop bar Riv-bike that can have bars set 1-2cm below saddle, one 
would need to buy an Atlantis, Hilsen, or Roadeo at this point in Riv-time. Or 
cut the steerer tube down on a Sam, Clem, or Joe?

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Joe Bernard]

The Joe is a longbike. I suspect DT shifters would be an unreasonably long 
reach forward on that bike, and especially awkward from the pulled back 
position of the bars. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Lungimsam]

Even no rack still light mounts there.
No DT shifter braze ons. Too bad.

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[David Person]

I'd like to see Riv put on their site spec drawings of the Joe for each 
size, like they did for the Sam Hillborne.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Takashi]

Velo Orange's Quill Stem looks similar, though it is shinier than the one 
in Blug.
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/stems/quill-stems/vo-quill-stem.html

Takashi


2015年12月20日日曜日 15時40分02秒 UTC+9 James Warren:
>
>
> The stem. 
>
> Can I get that stem that's on the sample Joe? Is that gonna be a new 
> offering from Nitto. Can I get that stem without the handlebar, without the 
> bike. I want that stem for some other bikes.

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[JohnS]

I also like the looks of the Choco bar, not the bull moose version. I don't 
see it listed with the other handlebars, any one know when it will be 
available?

Thanks,
JohnS


On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 7:46:23 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Joe Bernard]

If it's possible to make a perfect bike in the perfect color with a perfect 
fork crown, Grant and the gang have done it. It's fabulous.

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 4:46:23 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks for the post, Doug.  This is a really nice looking bike, very well 
thought out.  Other than the price though there is not much difference 
between it and the Atlantis,  I wonder if the venerable Atlantis might be 
set up for a phase out?  I like that GP designed this around V or canti 
brakes, which I think are the best choices for fat tire bikes.  I did think 
the SKS fenders looked very short on this bike and also that HBs are like 
saddles and RBW should make it easier to buy the bike with the riders 
choice, although given the price that doesn't make much difference.  I'm 
pretty well set with my Ram, Saluki, Trek 620 and Bilenky tandem so it's 
all academic for me.

Michael



On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 7:46:23 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[iamkeith]

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 11:40:02 PM UTC-7, James Warren wrote:
>
>
> The stem. 
>
> Can I get that stem that's on the sample Joe? Is that gonna be a new 
> offering from Nitto. Can I get that stem without the handlebar, without the 
> bike. I want that stem for some other bikes.


I was going to mention/ask the exact same thing.  Stems like that are HARD 
to find, but seem to be exactly what I need most often for my older bikes.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

That stem and bar combo are not coming on the complete bike.  The complete 
bike will have the bullmoose variant.  When I saw that bar and stem combo 
in person, I said "Oh, you're going to have the Choco bar as separates"  
and Vince said "yeah. looks like it".  That's not a hard commitment, but it 
seems super likely to me.  

 I hope that stem comes in the clamp diameter(s) you want.  The tapered 
shape of the clamp led me to believe it is probably a 26.0 clamp, but 
that's just a guess from visual clues.  It's every bit as nice as the 
Nitto/Ritchey stems that came on the MB1/RB1/XO1

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, December 20, 2015 at 7:02:20 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 11:40:02 PM UTC-7, James Warren wrote:
>>
>>
>> The stem. 
>>
>> Can I get that stem that's on the sample Joe? Is that gonna be a new 
>> offering from Nitto. Can I get that stem without the handlebar, without the 
>> bike. I want that stem for some other bikes.
>
>
> I was going to mention/ask the exact same thing.  Stems like that are HARD 
> to find, but seem to be exactly what I need most often for my older bikes.
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[BSWP]

That's an excellent overview of the new model, highlighting its strengths 
and a few areas where one should look to an Atlantis or a Hunq for certain 
benefits, such as stouter tubes to support a rider heavier than 215 pounds, 
or more gear while touring. I look forward to trying a 62cm model when one 
comes through the shop. And good news - Frame & Fork will be available 
before summer!

- Andrew "215 pounds only on the very best of days", Berkeley

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 4:46:23 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> There's a thorough description of the Joe on the latest BLUG.  I 
> especially like the photo of the fist between the seat tube & the fender.  
> It also talks about where this bike fits into the line-up, between Sam & 
> Hunq, and differences with Atlantis.  Good stuff all around.  At $2,400 
> it's the deal of the yearand next year too.  
>
> dougP
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[James Warren]

The stem.

Can I get that stem that's on the sample Joe? Is that gonna be a new offering 
from Nitto. Can I get that stem without the handlebar, without the bike. I want 
that stem for some other bikes.

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

That is a dynamite write up. I like the pre-emptive strike against the 
handwringers. If you complain it makes you a handwringing handwringer.  

I'm super excited about it. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe on the BLUG

[dougP]

"Put the laptop down & hop on the bike."  Amen.

dougP (done a bit of handwringing myself)

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 8:20:03 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> That is a dynamite write up. I like the pre-emptive strike against the 
> handwringers. If you complain it makes you a handwringing handwringer.  
>
> I'm super excited about it. 
>

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