[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Will, I do see your points and can agree to some of them. In fact, I've 
even shown a few newbies how to switch chainrings without affecting the 
overall gearing (much) by the "double-dump" method (that is most convenient 
when using Campagnolo Ergopowers). Nevertheless, it must take extreme 
dexterity to execute a double-dump on friction downtube shifters, 
especially in the days before Shimano put the left shifter stop 15° before 
parallel with the downtube. I'm also somewhat unconvinced that the 
double-dump cannot be executed easily with barend shifters and especially 
with MTB-style "flat bar" shifters (trigger or thumb). Brifters came much 
later, so ease in this type of shifter cannot have dictated the evolution 
or establishment of conventions.

To be transparent, I seemed to have cornered the market on new Shimano XTR 
M960 rapid rise derailleurs (all 7 of them), so there's that. :)



On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 8:38:33 AM UTC-8, William deRosset wrote:
>
> >It is a *logical* idea.
>
>
> Dear Benz,
>
> We could have had this "logical" action with either a reverse-acting front 
> derailleur (offered by Suntour and others for a spell) and the "Rapid Rise" 
> derailleurs, among many others--the first modern derailleurs used a reverse 
> rear action, and it comes back from time to time. We adjusted to the way we 
> do it after initial designs that work "logically."
>
> I speculate we end up with our current arrangement for two reasons. One is 
> ergonomic, and one is functional. The ergonomic argument makes the most 
> sense to me.
>
> First, when one double-shifts with a standard setup, (i.e. going from 
> small to big ring up front, simultaneously shifting to a bigger cog in 
> back), both levers move in the same direction, facilitating an easy 
> one-handed shift with downtube levers. It is the same muscle movement for 
> Ergo levers i.e. actuate both inner levers or both thumb buttons, and it is 
> the same distance of travel to make the shift work right if you're using 
> "racing" gears; similarly for barcons. 
>
> It requires much more dexterity to do an accurate simultaneous double 
> shift with friction levers (it is easier with indexing) and one 
> reverse-pull derailleur in the mix, and it is two different movements with 
> barcons or the various integrated lever systems. Consequently, a single 
> reverse-pull derailleur is a huge hassle when operating a half-step, for 
> example, when (sequentially anyway) every other shift is a double, or if 
> you're between ranges on a compact double.
>
> Now, this could have been done with either the standard setup, or with 
> both lever pulls reversed, so why set up with high-normal in the rear and 
> low-normal up front?
>
> When a rear derailleur cable fails (or is not installed), the derailleur 
> moves away from the spokes in a standard setup. This eases installation and 
> limits/eliminates the possibility of a derailleur getting mashed into the 
> freewheel or spokes unexpectedly. Also, in very early designs, derailleurs 
> had no limit stops, and a failed cable threw the derailleur into the 
> spokes The Cyclo, with no return spring, was a huge step up--at the 
> expense of double-cable design. The front derailleur also gets muscular 
> support (vs a spring) to force the chain up onto the big ring, and you get 
> direct manual feedback on when the chain has caught, which is when you can 
> safely apply power to the cranks again.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Will
> William M. deRosset
> Fort Collins, CO
>
> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:49:14 PM UTC-7, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
> wrote:
>>
>> It is a *logical* idea.
>>
>> Imagine if we didn't have the legacy baggage of pulling cable to 
>> downshift in the back. Wouldn't it make more sense if both front and rear 
>> derailleurs did the same (upshift or downshift) if a particular action was 
>> actuated (such as pull or release cable)? With rapid-rise (or Low normal), 
>> Shimano was just harmonizing front and rear derailleur actions so pulling 
>> cable (with DT, thumbs, barends & STI) will all result in upshifts. Sounds 
>> pretty logical to me and it should be easier to teach newbies too.
>>
>> I also seem to recall that one of the technical reasons for rapid-rise 
>> was to improve rear shifting. Apparently, the downshift-facilitating ramps 
>> on the HG cassettes work better when the chain is gently prodded by a 
>> spring, rather than getting ham-fisted with an overly eager rider.
>>
>> In any case, it's not a particularly hard skill to switch to. No shifts 
>> are truly critical for non-pros, so a mis-shift here or there isn't bad. 
>> One can always harmonize all Shimano-equipped bikes with rapid-rise rear 
>> derailleurs! :)
>>
>> Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs *front* derailleur?
>>
>>
>> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great 
>>> idea then why didn't they make all 

[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[ted]

My experience with clicky things is fairly limited, but with my campy ergo 
brifters it still seems very obvious that one lever is pulling in cable to 
pull the chain uphill moving the internal mechanism to the next ratchet 
stop, and the other lever dumps it down one ratchet stop at a time. Same on 
both sides. Still just as logical as downtube or bar end shifters. I am 
fairly certain that if I had started with brifters I would still think 
about it the same way.
I think you are correct that the crux of the matter is thinking about the 
mechanics of what is going on, or not as the case may be. It certainly 
seems plausible that the rapid rise arrangement might make more sense to 
new riders that have no understanding of how a bike works and no interest 
in learning. I expect that is even more the case with the latest electric 
shifting systems. However I suspect that rapid rises failure to take any 
segment of the market by storm is because it in fact doesn't seem more 
natural than the current convention to any sizable group of people.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 10:48:00 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> That's how it works in my head, too, Ted. I grew up on friction 10-speeds, 
> so my first relationship with shifters was pulling up to bigger cogs, 
> pushing down to smaller. This made perfect sense to us who learned that 
> shifting was moving a chain around with our hands. But there's a whole 
> generation who relate to shifting as "click that thing there and the gear 
> changes." For them it may make more sense to have the clicky things use the 
> same paddles for easier and harder. I doubt I could ever get used to it..my 
> brain is locked on following the chain to bigger or smaller cogs/rings.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2015 01:47 AM, Joe Bernard wrote:

That's how it works in my head, too, Ted. I grew up on friction 10-speeds, so 
my first relationship with shifters was pulling up to bigger cogs, pushing down 
to smaller.


Sure, if you were using bar end shifters.  With downtube levers, of 
course, it's the opposite direction...




This made perfect sense to us who learned that shifting was moving a chain around with 
our hands. But there's a whole generation who relate to shifting as "click that 
thing there and the gear changes." For them it may make more sense to have the 
clicky things use the same paddles for easier and harder. I doubt I could ever get used 
to it..my brain is locked on following the chain to bigger or smaller cogs/rings.



Me too.

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[William deRosset]

>It is a *logical* idea.


Dear Benz,

We could have had this "logical" action with either a reverse-acting front 
derailleur (offered by Suntour and others for a spell) and the "Rapid Rise" 
derailleurs, among many others--the first modern derailleurs used a reverse 
rear action, and it comes back from time to time. We adjusted to the way we 
do it after initial designs that work "logically."

I speculate we end up with our current arrangement for two reasons. One is 
ergonomic, and one is functional. The ergonomic argument makes the most 
sense to me.

First, when one double-shifts with a standard setup, (i.e. going from small 
to big ring up front, simultaneously shifting to a bigger cog in back), 
both levers move in the same direction, facilitating an easy one-handed 
shift with downtube levers. It is the same muscle movement for Ergo levers 
i.e. actuate both inner levers or both thumb buttons, and it is the same 
distance of travel to make the shift work right if you're using "racing" 
gears; similarly for barcons. 

It requires much more dexterity to do an accurate simultaneous double shift 
with friction levers (it is easier with indexing) and one reverse-pull 
derailleur in the mix, and it is two different movements with barcons or 
the various integrated lever systems. Consequently, a single reverse-pull 
derailleur is a huge hassle when operating a half-step, for example, when 
(sequentially anyway) every other shift is a double, or if you're between 
ranges on a compact double.

Now, this could have been done with either the standard setup, or with both 
lever pulls reversed, so why set up with high-normal in the rear and 
low-normal up front?

When a rear derailleur cable fails (or is not installed), the derailleur 
moves away from the spokes in a standard setup. This eases installation and 
limits/eliminates the possibility of a derailleur getting mashed into the 
freewheel or spokes unexpectedly. Also, in very early designs, derailleurs 
had no limit stops, and a failed cable threw the derailleur into the 
spokes The Cyclo, with no return spring, was a huge step up--at the 
expense of double-cable design. The front derailleur also gets muscular 
support (vs a spring) to force the chain up onto the big ring, and you get 
direct manual feedback on when the chain has caught, which is when you can 
safely apply power to the cranks again.

Cheers,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:49:14 PM UTC-7, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:
>
> It is a *logical* idea.
>
> Imagine if we didn't have the legacy baggage of pulling cable to downshift 
> in the back. Wouldn't it make more sense if both front and rear derailleurs 
> did the same (upshift or downshift) if a particular action was actuated 
> (such as pull or release cable)? With rapid-rise (or Low normal), Shimano 
> was just harmonizing front and rear derailleur actions so pulling cable 
> (with DT, thumbs, barends & STI) will all result in upshifts. Sounds pretty 
> logical to me and it should be easier to teach newbies too.
>
> I also seem to recall that one of the technical reasons for rapid-rise was 
> to improve rear shifting. Apparently, the downshift-facilitating ramps on 
> the HG cassettes work better when the chain is gently prodded by a spring, 
> rather than getting ham-fisted with an overly eager rider.
>
> In any case, it's not a particularly hard skill to switch to. No shifts 
> are truly critical for non-pros, so a mis-shift here or there isn't bad. 
> One can always harmonize all Shimano-equipped bikes with rapid-rise rear 
> derailleurs! :)
>
> Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs *front* derailleur?
>
>
> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great 
>> idea then why didn't they make all shifting that way, mtb and road ?  ... 
>> ___ .  exactly .  Saying it was good for some and not the other 
>> right there doomed it.  A solution to problem that didn't exist. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 2:44:42 PM UTC-7, Justin August wrote:
>
> ^^
> The Microshift R10 does all that. As does the SunXCD. 
>
> -J
>

Funny, and thanks!  I didn't even know about the SunXCD, and now its 
mentioned in two threads on the same day.   I love this place.

(Product description says it supports a 34t cassette and 9 speed chain, but 
36t and 8 speed are easily within the "one-generation apart, don't do 
anything stupid and you'll be just fine" overlap range.)

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[iamkeith]

Wasn't there talk once about a Rivendell-developed, dual-function 
derailleur that could work either way simply by switching the position of 
the spring in the parallelogram?  At the time, I thought it would be too 
ambitious of a project to ever see fruition.  On the other hand, they've 
managed to expand the line of Silver components since then, much more than 
I thought they ever would, so maybe we'll still see something.   God knows 
the market could use a good, simple, derailleur that's works with 8 speed 
chains and 36 or bigger cogs *and* comes in an attractive, polished silver 
finish.

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 12:24:00 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Grant was heavy into the concept of both shifters moving the same 
> direction for easier/harder gears, despite its "rapid" demise in the 
> marketplace. They came about as Shimano was introducing something on MTBs 
> called Dual Control, which was a brake lever you nudged up or down for 
> shifts..they didn't want the shifters to have opposite actions for the same 
> move. I don't know what happened to the shifters, but RapidRise derailers 
> are long gone from that market. I suspect Riv now owns all of them ;)

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Justin August]

^^
The Microshift R10 does all that. As does the SunXCD. 

-J

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[BenG]

I built an '80's mtb for my daughter using a RR rear and 8-spd indexed 
shifters.  It is wonderfully intuitive with the clickers - thumbs make it 
harder, fingers make it easier.  Then I found a new take-off RR XT for $20 on 
the discount table at LBS, from a lady who hated it on her new bike.  That 
one's still on my shelf.  World population is at least Riventory + 1.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Jim Bronson]

But does it go to 11?
On Dec 29, 2015 12:49 AM, "Benz, Sunnyvale, CA" 
wrote:

> It is a *logical* idea.
>
> Imagine if we didn't have the legacy baggage of pulling cable to downshift
> in the back. Wouldn't it make more sense if both front and rear derailleurs
> did the same (upshift or downshift) if a particular action was actuated
> (such as pull or release cable)? With rapid-rise (or Low normal), Shimano
> was just harmonizing front and rear derailleur actions so pulling cable
> (with DT, thumbs, barends & STI) will all result in upshifts. Sounds pretty
> logical to me and it should be easier to teach newbies too.
>
> I also seem to recall that one of the technical reasons for rapid-rise was
> to improve rear shifting. Apparently, the downshift-facilitating ramps on
> the HG cassettes work better when the chain is gently prodded by a spring,
> rather than getting ham-fisted with an overly eager rider.
>
> In any case, it's not a particularly hard skill to switch to. No shifts
> are truly critical for non-pros, so a mis-shift here or there isn't bad.
> One can always harmonize all Shimano-equipped bikes with rapid-rise rear
> derailleurs! :)
>
> Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs *front* derailleur?
>
>
> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great
>> idea then why didn't they make all shifting that way, mtb and road ?  ...
>> ___ .  exactly .  Saying it was good for some and not the other
>> right there doomed it.  A solution to problem that didn't exist.
>>
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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[ted]

Odd, I have always thought the now standard arrangement was perfectly 
logical.
You pull on the cable to move to a bigger cog/rig with either derailer, aka 
you always pull on the lever to force the chain uphill.
If you grasp how gears work, then what going to a bigger or smaller 
cog/ring is going to do to your mechanical advantage is perfectly logical 
too.
Always made perfect sense to me.

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-8, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:
>
> It is a *logical* idea.
>
> Imagine if we didn't have the legacy baggage of pulling cable to downshift 
> in the back. Wouldn't it make more sense if both front and rear derailleurs 
> did the same (upshift or downshift) if a particular action was actuated 
> (such as pull or release cable)? With rapid-rise (or Low normal), Shimano 
> was just harmonizing front and rear derailleur actions so pulling cable 
> (with DT, thumbs, barends & STI) will all result in upshifts. Sounds pretty 
> logical to me and it should be easier to teach newbies too.
>
> I also seem to recall that one of the technical reasons for rapid-rise was 
> to improve rear shifting. Apparently, the downshift-facilitating ramps on 
> the HG cassettes work better when the chain is gently prodded by a spring, 
> rather than getting ham-fisted with an overly eager rider.
>
> In any case, it's not a particularly hard skill to switch to. No shifts 
> are truly critical for non-pros, so a mis-shift here or there isn't bad. 
> One can always harmonize all Shimano-equipped bikes with rapid-rise rear 
> derailleurs! :)
>
> Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs *front* derailleur?
>
>
> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great 
>> idea then why didn't they make all shifting that way, mtb and road ?  ... 
>> ___ .  exactly .  Saying it was good for some and not the other 
>> right there doomed it.  A solution to problem that didn't exist. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Joe Bernard]

That's how it works in my head, too, Ted. I grew up on friction 10-speeds, so 
my first relationship with shifters was pulling up to bigger cogs, pushing down 
to smaller. This made perfect sense to us who learned that shifting was moving 
a chain around with our hands. But there's a whole generation who relate to 
shifting as "click that thing there and the gear changes." For them it may make 
more sense to have the clicky things use the same paddles for easier and 
harder. I doubt I could ever get used to it..my brain is locked on following 
the chain to bigger or smaller cogs/rings.

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Matt B.]

 

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 1:49:14 AM UTC-5, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs *front* derailleur?
>
>
I had a reverse-shifting suntour front derailleur on a Centurion once.  
Regarding Shimano RDs, I have been using rapid-rise for years now (with a 
normal FD) including a long tour across N.A. with it, and when I heard they 
had gone out of production I bought a backup.I like that it downshifts 
when bounced out of gear on bumpy trails. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2015 01:49 AM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA wrote:


Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs /front/ derailleur?


No, but I certainly remember the backwards-acting Sun Tour front 
derailleurs.



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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

['Mojo' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I used a rapid rise derailer with friction shifters for several years on my 
load carrier. I could never get the reverse motion to become intuitive. 
This of course after decades of "normal" shifting. I finally, this fall, 
replaced the rapid rise with a normal rear derailer. For now when I drop my 
rear hand to the level, there is just a brief moment of indecision. But I 
am sure I can be cured of my imperfect indoctrination given enough time on 
the lever.

Joe "in GJT where it's all snow bike all the time right now and it was -3F 
for my morning commute and gawd I miss New Mexico" Ramey

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 12:28:37 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
>
>  Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great 
> idea then why didn't they make all shifting that way, mtb and road ?  ... 
> ___ .  exactly .  Saying it was good for some and not the other 
> right there doomed it.  A solution to problem that didn't exist. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Garth]

 Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great 
idea then why didn't they make all shifting that way, mtb and road ?  ... 
___ .  exactly .  Saying it was good for some and not the other 
right there doomed it.  A solution to problem that didn't exist. 

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[RBW] Re: Rapid Rise Rear Der

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

It is a *logical* idea.

Imagine if we didn't have the legacy baggage of pulling cable to downshift 
in the back. Wouldn't it make more sense if both front and rear derailleurs 
did the same (upshift or downshift) if a particular action was actuated 
(such as pull or release cable)? With rapid-rise (or Low normal), Shimano 
was just harmonizing front and rear derailleur actions so pulling cable 
(with DT, thumbs, barends & STI) will all result in upshifts. Sounds pretty 
logical to me and it should be easier to teach newbies too.

I also seem to recall that one of the technical reasons for rapid-rise was 
to improve rear shifting. Apparently, the downshift-facilitating ramps on 
the HG cassettes work better when the chain is gently prodded by a spring, 
rather than getting ham-fisted with an overly eager rider.

In any case, it's not a particularly hard skill to switch to. No shifts are 
truly critical for non-pros, so a mis-shift here or there isn't bad. One 
can always harmonize all Shimano-equipped bikes with rapid-rise rear 
derailleurs! :)

Anyone remember the reverse shifting Sachs *front* derailleur?


On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:
>
>
>  Rapid Rise was doomed before it even started !  If it was such a great 
> idea then why didn't they make all shifting that way, mtb and road ?  ... 
> ___ .  exactly .  Saying it was good for some and not the other 
> right there doomed it.  A solution to problem that didn't exist. 
>

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