Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Bill Schairer]

Patrick,

I was running a 9sp 12-25 cassette with a Suntour Superbe Pro short cage 
and a 46/38/28 with down tube shifters and the derailleur is well named. 
 To my amazement I could run the entire cassette on each chainring with 
only the slightest sag small/small though in practice I don’t do that. 
 This appears to be way outside spec.

I then swapped wheels and crank and am now running a 14-28 7 sp freewheel 
with a 50/45/26 crank.  It does not like the 26/28 combo and doesn’t wrap 
enough chain in general on the 26t ring but is rideable. I will probably 
swap out the 26 for a 28 or a 30.

I am super pleased with the Superbe.  Though I haven’t ridden it with 10sp 
or barcons I have no reason to believe it wouldn’t be wonderful with both. 
 Since mounting it only recently I read on Disraeli Gears that some 
consider this derailleur to be the best shifting friction derailleur of all 
time.  I don’t have nearly enough experience to make such a claim myself 
but can well imagine it might be true.

Bill S

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 10:33:40 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

> More good news, then; thanks.
>
> I'm going to look for a medium cage rd to replace the old Dura Ace, which 
> I chose for "style" -- tho' it used to work well. But I really should have 
> a bit more chain takeup for the 42/28 chainset.
>
> Just talked to LBS who say that they straightened the hangar and the rd 
> still rubs, but it looks as if the rd itself is bent. We'll see.
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:43 AM Ted Durant  wrote:
>
>> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but 
>>> forget 11 or 12. 
>>>
>>
>> I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and 
>> mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for 
>> 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano 
>> is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should 
>> work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel. 
>> In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee, WI USA 
>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

More good news, then; thanks.

I'm going to look for a medium cage rd to replace the old Dura Ace, which I
chose for "style" -- tho' it used to work well. But I really should have a
bit more chain takeup for the 42/28 chainset.

Just talked to LBS who say that they straightened the hangar and the rd
still rubs, but it looks as if the rd itself is bent. We'll see.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:43 AM Ted Durant  wrote:

> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but
>> forget 11 or 12.
>>
>
> I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and
> mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for
> 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano
> is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should
> work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel.
> In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>
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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

Answered ...

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:30 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Dave: What is the derailleur?
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:52 AM Dave Grossman  wrote:
>
>> I recently had chain failure on my Hunq in a 9 speed triple setup. I have
>> Silver barcons, always fricrion (FRICTION4LYFE).  I decided to rebuild with
>> garage bin parts and put on a Race Face NW 38T on the Sugino XD, an 11-32
>> Sram 1070 cassette, and Sram 1050 chain.  The results have been perfect.  I
>> find the new 10s setup to be smooth, and for my Northern Illinois riding
>> the gearing is perfect.  I also just got used to a worn noisy chain, and
>> the stealthy drivetrain makes me happy.
>>
>> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-5 Ted Durant wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
 This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but
 forget 11 or 12.

>>>
>>> I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and
>>> mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for
>>> 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano
>>> is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should
>>> work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel.
>>> In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...
>>>
>>> Ted Durant
>>> Milwaukee, WI USA
>>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

Dave: What is the derailleur?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:52 AM Dave Grossman  wrote:

> I recently had chain failure on my Hunq in a 9 speed triple setup. I have
> Silver barcons, always fricrion (FRICTION4LYFE).  I decided to rebuild with
> garage bin parts and put on a Race Face NW 38T on the Sugino XD, an 11-32
> Sram 1070 cassette, and Sram 1050 chain.  The results have been perfect.  I
> find the new 10s setup to be smooth, and for my Northern Illinois riding
> the gearing is perfect.  I also just got used to a worn noisy chain, and
> the stealthy drivetrain makes me happy.
>
> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-5 Ted Durant wrote:
>
>> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but
>>> forget 11 or 12.
>>>
>>
>> I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and
>> mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for
>> 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano
>> is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should
>> work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel.
>> In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee, WI USA
>>
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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Dave Grossman]

I left out the important part.  I did not make a single adjustment to my 9 
speed Deore RD M952.  It is the stock silver one from Riv.  Shifts 
perfectly in friction with 10 speeds.

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:52:38 AM UTC-5 Dave Grossman wrote:

> I recently had chain failure on my Hunq in a 9 speed triple setup. I have 
> Silver barcons, always fricrion (FRICTION4LYFE).  I decided to rebuild with 
> garage bin parts and put on a Race Face NW 38T on the Sugino XD, an 11-32 
> Sram 1070 cassette, and Sram 1050 chain.  The results have been perfect.  I 
> find the new 10s setup to be smooth, and for my Northern Illinois riding 
> the gearing is perfect.  I also just got used to a worn noisy chain, and 
> the stealthy drivetrain makes me happy.
>
> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-5 Ted Durant wrote:
>
>> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but 
>>> forget 11 or 12. 
>>>
>>
>> I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and 
>> mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for 
>> 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano 
>> is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should 
>> work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel. 
>> In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee, WI USA 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Dave Grossman]

I recently had chain failure on my Hunq in a 9 speed triple setup. I have 
Silver barcons, always fricrion (FRICTION4LYFE).  I decided to rebuild with 
garage bin parts and put on a Race Face NW 38T on the Sugino XD, an 11-32 
Sram 1070 cassette, and Sram 1050 chain.  The results have been perfect.  I 
find the new 10s setup to be smooth, and for my Northern Illinois riding 
the gearing is perfect.  I also just got used to a worn noisy chain, and 
the stealthy drivetrain makes me happy.

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-5 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but 
>> forget 11 or 12. 
>>
>
> I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and 
> mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for 
> 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano 
> is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should 
> work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel. 
> In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Ted Durant]

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but 
> forget 11 or 12. 
>

I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and 
mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for 
12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano 
is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should 
work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel. 
In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but
forget 11 or 12.



On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:21 AM Ted Durant  wrote:

> On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:06:23 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> But question for clarification: will even modern Shimano road derailleurs
>> have sufficiently high actuation ratios for a bar con that has at most 120*
>> of lever travel (not as much as Silvers, but I prefer the bar cons)?
>>
>
> According to my calcs, the BarCon pulls 25mm of cable in 25 clicks (1mm
> per click). A Shimano 6-10 sp rear derailleur needs 20.7mm of cable pull to
> cover a 10-speed cassette, so the BarCon should work.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>
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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Ted Durant]

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:06:23 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> But question for clarification: will even modern Shimano road derailleurs 
> have sufficiently high actuation ratios for a bar con that has at most 120* 
> of lever travel (not as much as Silvers, but I prefer the bar cons)?
>

According to my calcs, the BarCon pulls 25mm of cable in 25 clicks (1mm per 
click). A Shimano 6-10 sp rear derailleur needs 20.7mm of cable pull to 
cover a 10-speed cassette, so the BarCon should work. 

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Ted; good to know that I should focus on Shimano.

But question for clarification: will even modern Shimano road derailleurs
have sufficiently high actuation ratios for a bar con that has at most 120*
of lever travel (not as much as Silvers, but I prefer the bar cons)?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:42 AM Ted Durant  wrote:

> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 9:52:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> What do you recommend for a rear derailleur for the following
>> preferences, listed in order of importance:
>>
>> 1. Shifts nicely with Bar Cons (yes, the Suntour ones) over 10 properly
>> spaced 10-speed-specific cogs (using 11 speed chain, if that makes a
>> difference). The rings are 42/28, and I let the chain sag in the
>> small/smaller cogs because I don't use those combinations.
>> 2. Shifts nicely over a close-ratio cassette: 13-25 (20-22-25).
>> 3. Is reasonably durable and reliable.
>> 4. Is silver of, if black, then not horribly ugly.
>>
>
> Shimano rear derailleurs are pretty good for use with BarCons, as they
> have a fairly high actuation ratio, meaning more derailleur movement for a
> given amount of cable pull. The only thing better would be a SunTour.
> Forget about Campy or SRAM. Modern derailleur philosophy is moving toward
> lower actuation ratios because of the need for more tolerance with indexing
> on very closely spaced cogs. My problem with using BarCons (or Riv Silver)
> on narrow cassettes is that the ratchet clicks act a bit like indexing
> clicks, but they're almost never in the right place so my hand-brain
> connection gets flustered and I spend a lot of time trying to get the
> derailleur centered on a cog. With a SunTour rear derailleur, it's almost
> exactly 2 clicks of a BarCon per cog on a Shimano/SRAM 10-speed road
> cassette.
>
> I have a SunTour XC Pro MD on my Riv MTB. It has almost enough wrap to
> work with a 46-36-26 front and 11-28 rear (39 teeth). It shifts brilliantly
> with Shimano 9-speed bar ends and a Shimano-SRAM 8-speed cassette. It's a
> nice combination of polished silver and black, and is solidly built (and
> pretty heavy, as a result). There are shorter and longer cage versions
> floating around out there.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI, USA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Laing. The shop did find that it was bent, but said (but only in a
brief phone message) that simply fixing that would not fix the rub; must go
over and ask for clarification.

I do hope it's merely a matter of replacing the hangar (it's a bolt on).

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:33 AM lconley  wrote:

> Check the derailleur hanger alignment. The inner plate should not rub the
> spokes if the derailleur hanger alignment is correct.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> What do you recommend for a rear derailleur for the following
>> preferences, listed in order of importance:
>>
>> 1. Shifts nicely with Bar Cons (yes, the Suntour ones) over 10 properly
>> spaced 10-speed-specific cogs (using 11 speed chain, if that makes a
>> difference). The rings are 42/28, and I let the chain sag in the
>> small/smaller cogs because I don't use those combinations.
>> 2. Shifts nicely over a close-ratio cassette: 13-25 (20-22-25).
>> 3. Is reasonably durable and reliable.
>> 4. Is silver of, if black, then not horribly ugly.
>>
>> I've been shifting a 8-speed-era Dura Ace rd over the cassette, and it
>> works very well except that I belatedly discovered that the inner cage
>> plate rubs the spokes in the small ring/big cog combo. I want to use that
>> combination.
>>
>> The Bar Cons pull the DA 7410 (I think) rd over the 10 cogs with about
>> 90* of movement, and there is perhaps more lever travel available.
>>
>> I had a very nice Miche road rd about 5 years ago that might have worked,
>> but an errant stick broke it. I don't know if Miche road rds are still the
>> same.
>>
>> Ideas?
>>
>> Or perhaps someone has a nice condition, silver, 8-speed XT rd to sell?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
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[RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Ted Durant]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 9:52:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> What do you recommend for a rear derailleur for the following preferences, 
> listed in order of importance:
>
> 1. Shifts nicely with Bar Cons (yes, the Suntour ones) over 10 properly 
> spaced 10-speed-specific cogs (using 11 speed chain, if that makes a 
> difference). The rings are 42/28, and I let the chain sag in the 
> small/smaller cogs because I don't use those combinations.
> 2. Shifts nicely over a close-ratio cassette: 13-25 (20-22-25).
> 3. Is reasonably durable and reliable.
> 4. Is silver of, if black, then not horribly ugly.
>
 
Shimano rear derailleurs are pretty good for use with BarCons, as they have 
a fairly high actuation ratio, meaning more derailleur movement for a given 
amount of cable pull. The only thing better would be a SunTour. Forget 
about Campy or SRAM. Modern derailleur philosophy is moving toward lower 
actuation ratios because of the need for more tolerance with indexing on 
very closely spaced cogs. My problem with using BarCons (or Riv Silver) on 
narrow cassettes is that the ratchet clicks act a bit like indexing clicks, 
but they're almost never in the right place so my hand-brain connection 
gets flustered and I spend a lot of time trying to get the derailleur 
centered on a cog. With a SunTour rear derailleur, it's almost exactly 2 
clicks of a BarCon per cog on a Shimano/SRAM 10-speed road cassette.

I have a SunTour XC Pro MD on my Riv MTB. It has almost enough wrap to work 
with a 46-36-26 front and 11-28 rear (39 teeth). It shifts brilliantly with 
Shimano 9-speed bar ends and a Shimano-SRAM 8-speed cassette. It's a nice 
combination of polished silver and black, and is solidly built (and pretty 
heavy, as a result). There are shorter and longer cage versions floating 
around out there.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI, USA

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[lconley]

Check the derailleur hanger alignment. The inner plate should not rub the 
spokes if the derailleur hanger alignment is correct.

Laing

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

> What do you recommend for a rear derailleur for the following preferences, 
> listed in order of importance:
>
> 1. Shifts nicely with Bar Cons (yes, the Suntour ones) over 10 properly 
> spaced 10-speed-specific cogs (using 11 speed chain, if that makes a 
> difference). The rings are 42/28, and I let the chain sag in the 
> small/smaller cogs because I don't use those combinations.
> 2. Shifts nicely over a close-ratio cassette: 13-25 (20-22-25).
> 3. Is reasonably durable and reliable.
> 4. Is silver of, if black, then not horribly ugly.
>
> I've been shifting a 8-speed-era Dura Ace rd over the cassette, and it 
> works very well except that I belatedly discovered that the inner cage 
> plate rubs the spokes in the small ring/big cog combo. I want to use that 
> combination.
>
> The Bar Cons pull the DA 7410 (I think) rd over the 10 cogs with about 90* 
> of movement, and there is perhaps more lever travel available.
>
> I had a very nice Miche road rd about 5 years ago that might have worked, 
> but an errant stick broke it. I don't know if Miche road rds are still the 
> same.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Or perhaps someone has a nice condition, silver, 8-speed XT rd to sell?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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