Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2016-01-17 Thread Utah 
Hi John,
I own a Surly Cross Check and a Surly Long Haul Trucker.  The LHT has a 
more comfortable feel.  The primary differences in the bikes is that the 
angles on the LHT are a little more slack and the bottom bracket on the LHT 
is lower.  I'm not sure I can quite explain it, but the slack seat tube 
takes some of the pressure off your hands and contributes to putting you a 
little more upright on the bike.  The slack seat tube also requires the 
bike to have a little longer chain stays, which I think gives a little 
softer ride.  

You also want a similarly slack head tube to go with it or the bike will 
really stretch you out with a longer cockpit feel.  

IMHO The more upright angles make the bike feel a bit more zippy, so my 
theory is that you lose a little zip with the more slack tubes, but you 
gain comfort and smoother ride that you can sustain all day.  The bike will 
also want to track straight with the more slack the head tube.  I notice 
that a lot on the LHT.  

I recently replaced my wife's Surly Cross Check with a Betty Foy.  She is 
amazed at how much more smooth comfortable it is.  

I would say the difference is noticeable but not large.  I haven't ridden 
my LHT more than four hours in a day.  But after four hours my neck and 
hands weren't sore at all.

If you are planning on racing your buddies up steep grades, I would NOT get 
slack tubes.  If you are planning on long hours at an enjoyable pace, slack 
tubes will make the ride more pleasant.

Some of the other people posting said to just move your seat back on the 
rails.  I think that would help, but that would not change the head tube 
angles or length of chainstays.

Hope this helps.

Scott

 

On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 1:32:54 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Hi
> About 20 days ago, you replied to my question concerning relaxed STAs on 
> Rivendells.   You said you can definitely feel the relaxed  STA.
> Can you described what you feel in a little more detail
> I'm looking at an Ocean Air Rambler 650B low trail frame/fork, and it has 
> a 72degree STA and 72.5 HTA, STA same as a AHH and very similar to other 
> Rivendells.  The Rambler is more relaxed than other 650B frames out there 
> and RBWs are more relaxed than other normal trial frames also.
> My existing frames have 73.5 and 74 degrees STA, so I am not as far back 
> as I would be on a Rambler or a RBW.  I also have the bars at the saddle 
> height (Nitto Technomic used), which is the typical RBW location (at or 
> above).   While the RBWs are not low trial, I feel the relaxed rear 
> geometry effects are more or less the same regardless of trial. 
> So I'm trying to understand if you see the relaxed rear geometry effect as 
> a small, medium, or large effect and what does it feel like.  
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>  
>  
> On 12/29/15, Utah wrote:
>  
> The slack seat tube works together with the slack headtube which you can 
> definitely feel! 
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 5:32:11 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>> A relaxed rear geometry seems 1 major feature of all Rivendells (except 
>> the Roadeo), i.e s*lacker Seat Tube Angles (STA)are used compared to 
>> other frames*, whether large or small builder.  The STA angles of the 
>> small to medium frames vary from 71.5 deg (Sam, Joe A, San Macro) to 72.5 
>> deg (AHH, Atlantis, Ram) which are less than:
>>
>>- Small 27"/700C frames which typically have steeper STA, 73 to 74 
>>deg, to avoid toe clip overlap.  The exception being a long top tube, 
>>requiring shorter stems to maintain reach within limits
>>- Larger frames even are less than 73 deg, a typical British STA.  
>>
>> The slacker STA puts you further back, 6 to 18mm, depending on the STA 
>> compared to 73deg STA.  
>>
>> My questions to the group
>>  
>> 1.  Is the relaxed rear geometry something you can feel when compared to 
>> other frames??
>>
>> 2.  Do you see it as a positive??  
>>
>> The relaxed rear seems to go together with the higher head tube, bars up 
>> to saddle height and further back, which also seem to differentiate 
>> Rivendell, assuming lugs & great paint jobs don't affect the ride.  
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2016-01-17 Thread Steve Palincsar 


On 01/17/2016 03:32 PM, john.hawry...@verizon.net wrote:
My existing frames have 73.5 and 74 degrees STA, *so I am not as far 
back as I would be *on a Rambler or a RBW. 


Deja vu all over again.  The seat angle plus the seat post setback plus 
the amount of room you have on the seat rails *together* may affect your 
saddle location.  Or maybe not.  It's perfectly possible you could have 
the identical saddle position on both bikes.  The only reason to worry 
about this is to be sure that the frame you're considering will let you 
put the seat where you want it to be given the saddle and the seatpost 
you have chosen.  This typically becomes and issue only because of the 
relatively short seat rails of the B.17 (compared to many other saddles) 
and the popularity of the B.17 with owners of Rivendells, Ramblers, etc.


And if you can get your saddle to the identical position, you will feel 
exactly nothing as a result of the seat angle being 1/2 or 1 degree 
less, and there will be no "relaxed rear geometry effects" to feel.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2016-01-17 Thread Matt B. 
The slacker STA dovetails with the taller headtubes on Riv bikes, so really 
the typical cycling body position is preserved but kind of rotated slightly 
back around the BB, and you still have a totally natural position for 
pedaling, but with the added benefit that your neck is not kinked if you 
want to take in the scenery as you ride by.   It's really an old-school 
geometry.  If you look at bikes from the early 20th century, even racing 
bikes, they had slack angles and bars at saddle height or above.   I have a 
1969 raleigh that has that old geometry, and it rides almost exactly like a 
riv, though the BB is a bit higher and the build quality is not as great 
though nottingham raleighs are known for sloppy construction.   I also have 
a mid eighties specialized with a 74 deg. seat tube, and riding it, 
especially after not having ridden it for a while, definitely feels like 
you are more perched up on a high wire or something like that.  It's 
noticeable.  Not uncomfortable, since the way I ride it I still have the 
bars up within 2cm of the saddle, but just different and not as relaxed 
feeling.



On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 3:32:54 PM UTC-5, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Hi
> About 20 days ago, you replied to my question concerning relaxed STAs on 
> Rivendells.   You said you can definitely feel the relaxed  STA.
> Can you described what you feel in a little more detail
> I'm looking at an Ocean Air Rambler 650B low trail frame/fork, and it has 
> a 72degree STA and 72.5 HTA, STA same as a AHH and very similar to other 
> Rivendells.  The Rambler is more relaxed than other 650B frames out there 
> and RBWs are more relaxed than other normal trial frames also.
> My existing frames have 73.5 and 74 degrees STA, so I am not as far back 
> as I would be on a Rambler or a RBW.  I also have the bars at the saddle 
> height (Nitto Technomic used), which is the typical RBW location (at or 
> above).   While the RBWs are not low trial, I feel the relaxed rear 
> geometry effects are more or less the same regardless of trial. 
> So I'm trying to understand if you see the relaxed rear geometry effect as 
> a small, medium, or large effect and what does it feel like.  
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>  
>  
> On 12/29/15, Utah wrote:
>  
> The slack seat tube works together with the slack headtube which you can 
> definitely feel! 
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 5:32:11 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>> A relaxed rear geometry seems 1 major feature of all Rivendells (except 
>> the Roadeo), i.e s*lacker Seat Tube Angles (STA)are used compared to 
>> other frames*, whether large or small builder.  The STA angles of the 
>> small to medium frames vary from 71.5 deg (Sam, Joe A, San Macro) to 72.5 
>> deg (AHH, Atlantis, Ram) which are less than:
>>
>>- Small 27"/700C frames which typically have steeper STA, 73 to 74 
>>deg, to avoid toe clip overlap.  The exception being a long top tube, 
>>requiring shorter stems to maintain reach within limits
>>- Larger frames even are less than 73 deg, a typical British STA.  
>>
>> The slacker STA puts you further back, 6 to 18mm, depending on the STA 
>> compared to 73deg STA.  
>>
>> My questions to the group
>>  
>> 1.  Is the relaxed rear geometry something you can feel when compared to 
>> other frames??
>>
>> 2.  Do you see it as a positive??  
>>
>> The relaxed rear seems to go together with the higher head tube, bars up 
>> to saddle height and further back, which also seem to differentiate 
>> Rivendell, assuming lugs & great paint jobs don't affect the ride.  
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2016-01-17 Thread john . hawrylak 
HiAbout 20 days ago, you replied to my question concerning relaxed STAs on Rivendells.   You said you can definitely feel the relaxed  STA.Can you described what you feel in a little more detailI'm looking at an Ocean Air Rambler 650B low trail frame/fork, and it has a 72degree STA and 72.5 HTA, STA same as a AHH and very similar to other Rivendells.  The Rambler is more relaxed than other 650B frames out there and RBWs are more relaxed than other normal trial frames also.My existing frames have 73.5 and 74 degrees STA, so I am not as far back as I would be on a Rambler or a RBW.  I also have the bars at the saddle height (Nitto Technomic used), which is the typical RBW location (at or above).   While the RBWs are not low trial, I feel the relaxed rear geometry effects are more or less the same regardless of trial. So I'm trying to understand if you see the relaxed rear geometry effect as a small, medium, or large effect and what does it feel like.  John HawrylakWoodstown NJ  On 12/29/15, Utah wrote: The slack seat tube works together with the slack headtube which you can definitely feel! On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 5:32:11 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:A relaxed rear geometry seems 1 major feature of all Rivendells (except the Roadeo), i.e slacker Seat Tube Angles (STA)are used compared to other frames, whether large or small builder.  The STA angles of the small to medium frames vary from 71.5 deg (Sam, Joe A, San Macro) to 72.5 deg (AHH, Atlantis, Ram) which are less than:Small 27"/700C frames which typically have steeper STA, 73 to 74 deg, to avoid toe clip overlap.  The exception being a long top tube, requiring shorter stems to maintain reach within limitsLarger frames even are less than 73 deg, a typical British STA.  The slacker STA puts you further back, 6 to 18mm, depending on the STA compared to 73deg STA.  My questions to the group 1.  Is the relaxed rear geometry something you can feel when compared to other frames??2.  Do you see it as a positive??  The relaxed rear seems to go together with the higher head tube, bars up to saddle height and further back, which also seem to differentiate Rivendell, assuming lugs & great paint jobs don't affect the ride.  John HawrylakWoodstown NJ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/j0vrJR2W_78/unsubscribe.To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2015-12-30 Thread masmojo 
It occurs to me that having a slack STA is probably necessary in situations 
where you have fewer frame sizes (like the Clem/Clementine) because as the seat 
post is raised it opens up the effective top tube distance allowing the frame 
to accommodate a broader range of riders. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2015-12-28 Thread Garth 

Yes, every change makes for a completely different bike !  No matter how 
small. No 2 of anything are ever alike , even the same model built by the 
same person to the same specs. etc. etc.  


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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2015-12-28 Thread Utah 
The slack seat tube works together with the slack headtube which you can 
definitely feel! 



On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 5:32:11 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> A relaxed rear geometry seems 1 major feature of all Rivendells (except 
> the Roadeo), i.e s*lacker Seat Tube Angles (STA)are used compared to 
> other frames*, whether large or small builder.  The STA angles of the 
> small to medium frames vary from 71.5 deg (Sam, Joe A, San Macro) to 72.5 
> deg (AHH, Atlantis, Ram) which are less than:
>
>- Small 27"/700C frames which typically have steeper STA, 73 to 74 
>deg, to avoid toe clip overlap.  The exception being a long top tube, 
>requiring shorter stems to maintain reach within limits
>- Larger frames even are less than 73 deg, a typical British STA.  
>
> The slacker STA puts you further back, 6 to 18mm, depending on the STA 
> compared to 73deg STA.  
>
> My questions to the group
>  
> 1.  Is the relaxed rear geometry something you can feel when compared to 
> other frames??
>
> 2.  Do you see it as a positive??  
>
> The relaxed rear seems to go together with the higher head tube, bars up 
> to saddle height and further back, which also seem to differentiate 
> Rivendell, assuming lugs & great paint jobs don't affect the ride.  
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
>
>  
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Relaxed Rear Geometry & Actual Effect

2015-12-23 Thread Don Compton 
I think more significant  geo numbers are front to center and the chain 
stay length. They are a big part of Grant's bikes wonderful handling.


On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 4:32:11 PM UTC-8, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> A relaxed rear geometry seems 1 major feature of all Rivendells (except 
> the Roadeo), i.e s*lacker Seat Tube Angles (STA)are used compared to 
> other frames*, whether large or small builder.  The STA angles of the 
> small to medium frames vary from 71.5 deg (Sam, Joe A, San Macro) to 72.5 
> deg (AHH, Atlantis, Ram) which are less than:
>
>- Small 27"/700C frames which typically have steeper STA, 73 to 74 
>deg, to avoid toe clip overlap.  The exception being a long top tube, 
>requiring shorter stems to maintain reach within limits
>- Larger frames even are less than 73 deg, a typical British STA.  
>
> The slacker STA puts you further back, 6 to 18mm, depending on the STA 
> compared to 73deg STA.  
>
> My questions to the group
>  
> 1.  Is the relaxed rear geometry something you can feel when compared to 
> other frames??
>
> 2.  Do you see it as a positive??  
>
> The relaxed rear seems to go together with the higher head tube, bars up 
> to saddle height and further back, which also seem to differentiate 
> Rivendell, assuming lugs & great paint jobs don't affect the ride.  
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
>
>  
>

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