[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[masmojo]

Tightening helped mine as well. The problem is likely not the derailleur 
though. Unless you banged it on a rock or something.

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Wayne Naha]

I will certainly try tightening down the screws on my shifters.  Since they 
gave me problems from day one, I didn't figure they were loose, but 
anything can happen, I guess.  I cut my teeth on friction shifting, but 
only five cog freewheels.  Then there was the hiatus when I was riding 
indexed shifting.  Generally, I prefer manual over automatic, so I was glad 
to get back into friction shifting with the Clem.  I figured the problem I 
was having was due to degraded technique from 'the hiatus,' and the fact 
that there were three more cogs shimmied into the rear cluster.  A recipe 
for a real fuster cluck if ever there was one.  So I'll tighten down the 
shifter bolt, and maybe try the barrel adjuster to account for the fact 
that the cables are new and stretchy.  If that doesn't work, there is at 
least one derailer in the parts bin that could get swapped in, and if that 
doesn't work, maybe those new Silver Shifters, V2 will be showing up soon.  
I don't like to blame the equipment, but since others report the same 
problem, maybe it's not all me, either.

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 11:13:12 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I think it's mostly a 'not designed for derailers' problem, although the 
> OP seems to have solved it somewhat by cranking down on the shifter bolt. I 
> understand Riv's interest in them as erzats clicky-friction levers, but the 
> day I spent with them was frustrating. 

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Joe Bernard]

I think it's mostly a 'not designed for derailers' problem, although the OP 
seems to have solved it somewhat by cranking down on the shifter bolt. I 
understand Riv's interest in them as erzats clicky-friction levers, but the day 
I spent with them was frustrating. 

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

In my case the issue appears to have been soley user/mechanic error. Tightening 
the shifting mechanism resolved the issue.

The shifters aren't my favorite, but they now seem to work as well as one could 
ask.

I'm super happy with the bike overall. Perfect for family oriented cycling. 

Sky in new west

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

There was a big thread on this a while ago, not long after the Clems came 
out. A number of owners reported ghost shifting problems, including me. I 
suspect there may be quality control issues with these shifters, since it 
was a random but statistically significant sampling that reported the 
problem here.

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 11:31:46 AM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:
>
> My Clementine also has the Sunrace shifters its a 52cm & yes I do get some 
> ghost shifting, especially if I stand on the pedals to climb or sprint. 
> Some of it is the shifters, the long frame probably does not help, but my 
> 'tine is pretty stiff. I think changing to a silver shifter should mostly 
> solve the problem.

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[masmojo]

My Clementine also has the Sunrace shifters its a 52cm & yes I do get some 
ghost shifting, especially if I stand on the pedals to climb or sprint. Some of 
it is the shifters, the long frame probably does not help, but my 'tine is 
pretty stiff. I think changing to a silver shifter should mostly solve the 
problem.

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Garth]

Seems to from using friction shifting forever that a larger diameter shifter, 
like the mountain bike/SunTour thumbshifters , are less prone to loosening.  
The smaller road/SunTour Sprint style were always requiring slight 
retightening. The only time I seem to need to adjust the ST large thumbies is 
at the change of seasons sometimes with much different density of air. When Riv 
showed they were making a new shifter that looked like the old I assumed it was 
going to be a larger diameter like the original mtb style, but the innards are 
the same as the road. Oil well

Sky, I would use those Falcon shifters first before you buy anything else. 
Sure, the ratchet is plastic inside but so what, I bet it will stay put. I have 
both the Falcon and Sunrace thumbies as backups, but have never needed them as 
my ST pairs just keep working. 

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Kai, it's good to know that combination works. I just stripped a mini velo of 
its Shimano 9-speed bar-ends-on-VO-thumbies to transfer to my Appaloosa. I 
wasn't happy with the SunRace 9-speed thumbies I was using, so now I think I'll 
put the mini back together with SunRace mounts and Silver shifters (I have all 
the parts).

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Kai Vierstra]

I have Riv silver down tube shifters mounted on my Clem's standard issue 
shifter mounts. I think they're great! Mostly for the fact that the mount 
rotates, but they seem to hold well enough. And since they're already on your 
bike it would be an infinitely cheaper option than Paul's or the IRD mounts if 
you decide to swap out the shifters.
-Kai Vierstra 
Brooklyn NY  

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

Ya, I know. A little embarrassing. But...well worth embarrassment for an 
easy solution.  Thanks again to everyone for the help and advice.

Sky in new west

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:52:44 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Or you can tighten the shifter. I didn't think of that! ;-) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Or you can tighten the shifter. I didn't think of that! ;-) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Patrick Moore]

I'm glad the problem and the solution is so simple. I've used so many
shifters with attaching screws that gradually loosen; the old Nuovo Record
dt shifters were notorious for doing this. Blue Loctite is a wonderful all
purpose fix, along with vise grips, duct tape, and big hammers.

FWIW, with my otherwise superbly excellent Silver bar end shifters, you
have to get the bolts' tension just right to avoid both binding and
slipping. And the D screws loosen. I tossed the D screws in favor of allen
button head bolts, to which I apply a bit of blue loctite. Get them just
right and they stay adjusted.

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Sky Coulter 
wrote:

> Patrick,
>
> Thanks a bunch. I tightened the shifter mechanism (a little on the stiff
> side now for shifting) and voila indeed! Problem appears to have
> disappeared.
>
> Which is absolutely fantastic news.  I'll see if it holds up, but from the
> little test ride I just did - no more ghost shifting.
>
> I'm thrilled that it's not because I'm too big and the chain is too long.
>
> Sky in new west
>
>
> On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:06:00 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Ah yes, the infamous cheapie thumbies. I have a pair that have seen
>> several bikes, and they're almost comically good at what they do for how
>> cheap they are. I definitely prefer them over the ones I struggled with on
>> the Clem.
>
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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

Patrick,

Thanks a bunch. I tightened the shifter mechanism (a little on the stiff 
side now for shifting) and voila indeed! Problem appears to have 
disappeared.

Which is absolutely fantastic news.  I'll see if it holds up, but from the 
little test ride I just did - no more ghost shifting.

I'm thrilled that it's not because I'm too big and the chain is too long.

Sky in new west

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:06:00 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Ah yes, the infamous cheapie thumbies. I have a pair that have seen 
> several bikes, and they're almost comically good at what they do for how 
> cheap they are. I definitely prefer them over the ones I struggled with on 
> the Clem. 

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Ah yes, the infamous cheapie thumbies. I have a pair that have seen several 
bikes, and they're almost comically good at what they do for how cheap they 
are. I definitely prefer them over the ones I struggled with on the Clem. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Christopher Murray]

Any smaller rider would give you a pretty good idea if weight is the issue. 

Good luck!

cm 

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

Nice suggestion Chris! Unfortunately, the only 100lber I know who might be 
able to is a 12 year old girl, and I worry she's a bit too small to manage 
the bike.

Sky in New west.

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 3:42:53 PM UTC-8, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> Any chance you could find a 100lb test pilot? Then you'd know if weight/ 
> flex was the issue. 
>
> Cheers! 
> Chris
>

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

Thanks Joe, that's a super generous offer and I appreciate it. I think I 
already have a pair of cheaper thumbies in a parts box from 
velo-orange: 
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/shifting-freewheels-cassettes/shifters/falcon-friction-thumb-shifters.html

But in truth, if I replace the shifters that came with it, I'll probably go 
for the IRD ones or paul thumbies and silver or shimano shifters. Or hold 
out for the new ones riv are putting out.  But thanks very much for the 
offer.

Ya, the finicky shifting, ghost shifting is something that doesn't sit well 
with me.  But I love the ride of the bike otherwise.  I think Patrick's 
suggestion is promising and I'll try that before doing anything more 
drastic.

I'm really trying to avoid blinging out the clementine, on account that it 
is intended to be a practical, economy kind of ride. But I do seem to 
incline toward replacing the frugal with fancy - just so long as the 
function improves.

Sky in new west

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 3:45:04 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Well phooey, I was hoping that would work. The problem with the shifters 
> is they were designed for IGH hubs, where whatever ratchet effect in the 
> shifter was overcome by the solid clicks being in the hub. Without the hub 
> involved, the shifters - I've used them on a Clem demo I rode - tend to 
> want to settle into one of those little clicks. On the one day of riding I 
> spent with them I had a tough time finding and holding the right gear I was 
> looking for..it drive me batty. 
>
> I don't think you need to replace the derailer (yet), just match it with a 
> real 8-speed shifter, or go friction with Silver Power Ratchets. 
>
> Hey, I just thought of something. I have a SunRace 8-speed thumbshifter 
> that matches your shifters. You would have to swap your current righty to 
> the ledt, then mount the 8-speed on the right, but it would work without 
> having to pop for two new shifters. I bought it a while back from RBW and 
> used it for a short time on a now-abandoned project. They're only 18 bucks 
> new, so you can have it for flat-rate shipping, which is about $7.00. Looks 
> like the link below, let me know if you want to try it. 
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/shifting/products/sunrace-8-speed-m90-thumb-shifter
>
> Joe Bernard
> Vallejo, CA. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

Thanks Patrick,

I'll give that a go.


Sky in new west

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 3:29:52 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Sky: if the slipping occurs only in the direction that the rear derailleur 
> spring pulls, that is, toward smaller cogs (= higher gear), that indicates 
> that the shift lever is not tight enough. Remove the screw holding the 
> shift lever to the body, apply blue Loctite, re-install to the proper 
> torque, let dry, and wala, problem solved. At least, that's what I do with 
> my Silver bar end shifters.
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Sky Coulter  > wrote:
>
>> So. Took it out, tried adjusting the barrel on the derailer - no joy. I 
>> did discover that t is only shifting into the smaller gear though, when it 
>> slips.  Maybe it is the shifters.  I was hoping to avoid buying new ones, 
>> but...
>>
>> Sky in new west
>>
>> On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-8, Sky Coulter wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it's in both directions.  Hard to tell because it only happens 
>>> underload and discombobulates me everytime it happens. Thanks for the 
>>> advice, I'll try the adjustment you suggest - certainly easier and cheaper 
>>> than replacing bits.
>>>
>>> Thanks Joe.
>>>
>>> Sky in new west
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:53:46 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

 Is it shifting both directions under load, or only one way? Those weird 
 index-not-really-index shifters may have the derailer pulleys located just 
 off center of the cogs, which causes the ghost shift under load. 

 The trick in that case would be to use that adjuster thingy on the 
 derailer to loosen or tighten the cable a smidge. Example: If the shift is 
 always to a harder gear, turn the adjuster counter-clockwise a half turn, 
 which will move the derailer cage slightly left towards the bigger cogs. 

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>
>
>
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> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Well phooey, I was hoping that would work. The problem with the shifters is 
they were designed for IGH hubs, where whatever ratchet effect in the shifter 
was overcome by the solid clicks being in the hub. Without the hub involved, 
the shifters - I've used them on a Clem demo I rode - tend to want to settle 
into one of those little clicks. On the one day of riding I spent with them I 
had a tough time finding and holding the right gear I was looking for..it drive 
me batty. 

I don't think you need to replace the derailer (yet), just match it with a real 
8-speed shifter, or go friction with Silver Power Ratchets. 

Hey, I just thought of something. I have a SunRace 8-speed thumbshifter that 
matches your shifters. You would have to swap your current righty to the ledt, 
then mount the 8-speed on the right, but it would work without having to pop 
for two new shifters. I bought it a while back from RBW and used it for a short 
time on a now-abandoned project. They're only 18 bucks new, so you can have it 
for flat-rate shipping, which is about $7.00. Looks like the link below, let me 
know if you want to try it. 

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/shifting/products/sunrace-8-speed-m90-thumb-shifter

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Christopher Murray]

Any chance you could find a 100lb test pilot? Then you'd know if weight/ flex 
was the issue. 

Cheers! 
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Patrick Moore]

Sky: if the slipping occurs only in the direction that the rear derailleur
spring pulls, that is, toward smaller cogs (= higher gear), that indicates
that the shift lever is not tight enough. Remove the screw holding the
shift lever to the body, apply blue Loctite, re-install to the proper
torque, let dry, and wala, problem solved. At least, that's what I do with
my Silver bar end shifters.

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Sky Coulter 
wrote:

> So. Took it out, tried adjusting the barrel on the derailer - no joy. I
> did discover that t is only shifting into the smaller gear though, when it
> slips.  Maybe it is the shifters.  I was hoping to avoid buying new ones,
> but...
>
> Sky in new west
>
> On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-8, Sky Coulter wrote:
>>
>> I think it's in both directions.  Hard to tell because it only happens
>> underload and discombobulates me everytime it happens. Thanks for the
>> advice, I'll try the adjustment you suggest - certainly easier and cheaper
>> than replacing bits.
>>
>> Thanks Joe.
>>
>> Sky in new west
>>
>> On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:53:46 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
>>> Is it shifting both directions under load, or only one way? Those weird
>>> index-not-really-index shifters may have the derailer pulleys located just
>>> off center of the cogs, which causes the ghost shift under load.
>>>
>>> The trick in that case would be to use that adjuster thingy on the
>>> derailer to loosen or tighten the cable a smidge. Example: If the shift is
>>> always to a harder gear, turn the adjuster counter-clockwise a half turn,
>>> which will move the derailer cage slightly left towards the bigger cogs.
>>>
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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

Thanks for your help Joe. 

t's an 8 speed cassette.  In the 5th position, when pedalling hard, it 
shifts to 4th. Unfortunately the pic I took isn't very helpful and shows it 
in the 4th position. It doesn't matter how much I try to offset the 
derailer medially, it'll either start trying to shift to the next higher up 
gear, or it'll shift the the next lower gear under load.

But I don't believe the shifter is indexing - as near as I can tell it 
clicks, but the clicks don't correlate to any gear.  And from what I 
remember reading a while back the irrelevant clicks were intended to add to 
the charm of the bike.  In any case, if the derailer and/or shifters are 
gonna be this finicky, I'd rather replace them with something more 
reliable.  I guess my concern is that I'll buy bits and still have the same 
problem. If the root of the problem is that:  I'm heavy + the mixte frame 
is more prone to flex + the chain is super long.  


Thanks,

Sky

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 2:47:58 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Ok, let's try this. Shift into the middle of the cassette, which would be 
> 5th from biggest on a 9-speed. Get it into whatever click seems to 
> correspond with being able to pedal that gear normally. Now go back to the 
> derailer and see where the pulleys are lined up. Are they sitting directly 
> under the 5th cog, or slightly to the right? If so, you can turn that 
> adjuster more until the pulleys are slightly left of the cog. Shimano 
> derailers can function this way because of the floating top pulley. 
>
> For true indexed systems I set them up with this leftward bias. It still 
> allows solid shifts to smaller cogs, while making that climb up to bigger 
> ones a little easier. This should solve your problem, I don't think that 
> stout frame is going to flex enough to cause ghost shifting. Good luck!
>

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Ok, let's try this. Shift into the middle of the cassette, which would be 5th 
from biggest on a 9-speed. Get it into whatever click seems to correspond with 
being able to pedal that gear normally. Now go back to the derailer and see 
where the pulleys are lined up. Are they sitting directly under the 5th cog, or 
slightly to the right? If so, you can turn that adjuster more until the pulleys 
are slightly left of the cog. Shimano derailers can function this way because 
of the floating top pulley. 

For true indexed systems I set them up with this leftward bias. It still allows 
solid shifts to smaller cogs, while making that climb up to bigger ones a 
little easier. This should solve your problem, I don't think that stout frame 
is going to flex enough to cause ghost shifting. Good luck!

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

So. Took it out, tried adjusting the barrel on the derailer - no joy. I did 
discover that t is only shifting into the smaller gear though, when it 
slips.  Maybe it is the shifters.  I was hoping to avoid buying new ones, 
but...

Sky in new west

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-8, Sky Coulter wrote:
>
> I think it's in both directions.  Hard to tell because it only happens 
> underload and discombobulates me everytime it happens. Thanks for the 
> advice, I'll try the adjustment you suggest - certainly easier and cheaper 
> than replacing bits.
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> Sky in new west
>
> On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:53:46 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Is it shifting both directions under load, or only one way? Those weird 
>> index-not-really-index shifters may have the derailer pulleys located just 
>> off center of the cogs, which causes the ghost shift under load. 
>>
>> The trick in that case would be to use that adjuster thingy on the 
>> derailer to loosen or tighten the cable a smidge. Example: If the shift is 
>> always to a harder gear, turn the adjuster counter-clockwise a half turn, 
>> which will move the derailer cage slightly left towards the bigger cogs. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Garth]

The shifters.

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[RBW] Re: ghost shifting and the clementine

[Sky Coulter]

I think it's in both directions.  Hard to tell because it only happens 
underload and discombobulates me everytime it happens. Thanks for the 
advice, I'll try the adjustment you suggest - certainly easier and cheaper 
than replacing bits.

Thanks Joe.

Sky in new west

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 1:53:46 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Is it shifting both directions under load, or only one way? Those weird 
> index-not-really-index shifters may have the derailer pulleys located just 
> off center of the cogs, which causes the ghost shift under load. 
>
> The trick in that case would be to use that adjuster thingy on the 
> derailer to loosen or tighten the cable a smidge. Example: If the shift is 
> always to a harder gear, turn the adjuster counter-clockwise a half turn, 
> which will move the derailer cage slightly left towards the bigger cogs. 
>

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