Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Garth]

  I'd venture to guess those pads would be made by SwissStop .   I mean 
hey ... there are not that many pad manufacturers !   



On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> On Tuesday we'll have some really good brake pads. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Michael Hechmer]

Ron, perhaps I misunderstood your post.  The picture shows two brakes, 
neither Pauls, and a note saying these are the brakes Paul recommends.  But 
perhaps your note referred to my previous quote rather than your pictures. 
 Sorry if I came across as overly argumentative.

Michael

 

On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 7:48:44 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> those are the pads Paul brakes were designed for, and the only pads that 
> Paul sells.  
> Achieving proper alignment and toe is everything in brakes, and good 
> cartridge pads with some degree of spherical freedom is the answer.  
>
>    
>
> The Yokozuna  cartridges took the Weinmann SPs from marginally scary to 
> more than adequate.  The Dura cartridges gave the CPs all the power of Paul 
> cantis (there's nothing beyond lockup), but of course not the modulation of 
> Paul cantis.  
>
>
> On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 6:41:56 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Ok I agree that all of the popular style of brake design can be made into 
>> very good brakes but.
>>
>> I have never owned or even ridden a bike with "disk" brakes, but looking 
>> at them they seem to offer two advantages.  First they can accommodate much 
>> larger pads; second, their position, further from the road could make them 
>> less likely to get grimy, especially with road tar & oil.  (See my last 
>> paragraph on this.)
>>
>> While all the currently popular designs are functional, good brakes & 
>> good braking relies just as much on three other variables - execution, 
>> setup, and maintenance.
>>
>> Many years ago I put a pair of Dia Compe hi profile cantis on a Trek 620. 
>>  They looked like a good brake with a very traditional design but nothing 
>> ever improved their very weak power.  I concluded that it wasn't the design 
>> but the execution.  About 20 years ago I had a set of Shimano low profile 
>> cantis mated to Ultegra brifters.  They were very difficult to set up and 
>> barely stopped the bike.  The brifters simply pulled too much cable for 
>> them.  Switching to Tectro levers helped quite a bit, but ultimately bought 
>> a set of Paul's neo Retros and felt much safer on my daily commute.  I now 
>> owe Paul my life, which makes me a pretty loyal user!
>>
>> Finally maintenance.  Recently, in a single day the braking on our tandem 
>> went from deteriorating to almost non existent. I cleaned the rims, which 
>> had road tar on them.  Things did not get better.  Inspection showed that 
>> the salmon pads also had black smear across the surface.  I had to file off 
>> a micrometer of pad to get back to rubber.
>>
>> Finally, there may not be a need for "better" pads but there is a need 
>> for different pads.  I find that the slimline pads are much easier to set 
>> up on bikes with wide rims, at least with my Paul's brakes.  In fact they 
>> are the only pads that will not brush the tire on their way to the rims.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday we'll have some really good brake pads. I found out about 
>>> them from a customer/friend, who is not prone to raving and wasn't trying 
>>> to "turn me on" to his favorite widget, so I listened a bit harder and we 
>>> got samples. There's no need for better brake pads than Shimano or 
>>> Yokozuma...but these seem to be it, anyway, and they have other advantages, 
>>> at least in the V-brake version. I'm not sure if they're lockerupppers 
>>> (that has an odd political feel to it these days, not intended), but they 
>>> are remarkable, and if I didn't know what pads I had, I'd think wow, these 
>>> are amazing, I want more..
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Tim Gavin >> > wrote:
>>>
 Joe-  

 With QR wheels, it can be tricky to get the disc rotor in *exactly* the 
 same place as the last time.  The answer is to use the exact same method 
 each time you replace a wheel.

 Through-axles make this more fool-proof.

 But there will be neither disc brakes nor through-axles on the upcoming 
 Riv MTB, so it's irrelevant here.  Grant will build what he wants, and 
 with 
 the more "reasonable" MIT pricing, he'll sell all the bikes he orders.  


 Speaking of irrelevant elephants, I think "Olyphant" is a good name for 
 this upcoming Rivbike, as it harkens back to the mammoth badge on the 
 Hunq.  

 But not Timothy Olyphant, that name is taken.





 P.S.
 Personally, I prefer disc brakes on most bikes.  But then, I'm #250 and 
 have regularly been disappointed with the stopping power of rim brakes.  
 Even with Paul Racers, I could never lock up the front wheel on my Riv 
 Road 
 (not that I would want to, but it's a measure of braking power).  It was 
 frustrating to fully squeeze the brake lever and still feel the bike 
 creeping forward.  And 

Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Patrick Moore]

Cork pads: Are those standard material for cf rims? I gather that they
worked well.

In his book Gironimo, describing his entrepid, sometimes forlorn, always
funny repeat ride of the 1914 Giro d'Italia on a period bike, Brit author
Tim Moore describes cutting brake pads from wine corks to use with his
wooden rims. Apparently cork was standard fare for wood rims.

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 5:21 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> When I built up my bare-frame '98 Moser, got a set of new shopworn Chorus
> brakes for $65, removed from a floor bike to replace with new skeletons.
>
> 
>
> They came with cork pads for carbon rims.  Didn't last long, but the most
> freaking-amazing brakes I've ever had on a bike.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Michael Hechmer]

Not so.  If you look at the brake 
page: https://paulcomp.com/product-category/components/brakes/  you will 
see that every model he sells has thinline pads; and if you click on the 
neo-retros there is a link to a video on how to install pads, and you will 
see thinline being installed.

I spent an hour this week trying to install a set of cartridge pads on the 
rear of my tandem with neo-retro brakes and 1.75 tires so am quite certain 
that it can't be done.

Michael

On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 7:48:44 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> those are the pads Paul brakes were designed for, and the only pads that 
> Paul sells.  
> Achieving proper alignment and toe is everything in brakes, and good 
> cartridge pads with some degree of spherical freedom is the answer.  
>
>    
>
> The Yokozuna  cartridges took the Weinmann SPs from marginally scary to 
> more than adequate.  The Dura cartridges gave the CPs all the power of Paul 
> cantis (there's nothing beyond lockup), but of course not the modulation of 
> Paul cantis.  
>
>
> On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 6:41:56 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Ok I agree that all of the popular style of brake design can be made into 
>> very good brakes but.
>>
>> I have never owned or even ridden a bike with "disk" brakes, but looking 
>> at them they seem to offer two advantages.  First they can accommodate much 
>> larger pads; second, their position, further from the road could make them 
>> less likely to get grimy, especially with road tar & oil.  (See my last 
>> paragraph on this.)
>>
>> While all the currently popular designs are functional, good brakes & 
>> good braking relies just as much on three other variables - execution, 
>> setup, and maintenance.
>>
>> Many years ago I put a pair of Dia Compe hi profile cantis on a Trek 620. 
>>  They looked like a good brake with a very traditional design but nothing 
>> ever improved their very weak power.  I concluded that it wasn't the design 
>> but the execution.  About 20 years ago I had a set of Shimano low profile 
>> cantis mated to Ultegra brifters.  They were very difficult to set up and 
>> barely stopped the bike.  The brifters simply pulled too much cable for 
>> them.  Switching to Tectro levers helped quite a bit, but ultimately bought 
>> a set of Paul's neo Retros and felt much safer on my daily commute.  I now 
>> owe Paul my life, which makes me a pretty loyal user!
>>
>> Finally maintenance.  Recently, in a single day the braking on our tandem 
>> went from deteriorating to almost non existent. I cleaned the rims, which 
>> had road tar on them.  Things did not get better.  Inspection showed that 
>> the salmon pads also had black smear across the surface.  I had to file off 
>> a micrometer of pad to get back to rubber.
>>
>> Finally, there may not be a need for "better" pads but there is a need 
>> for different pads.  I find that the slimline pads are much easier to set 
>> up on bikes with wide rims, at least with my Paul's brakes.  In fact they 
>> are the only pads that will not brush the tire on their way to the rims.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday we'll have some really good brake pads. I found out about 
>>> them from a customer/friend, who is not prone to raving and wasn't trying 
>>> to "turn me on" to his favorite widget, so I listened a bit harder and we 
>>> got samples. There's no need for better brake pads than Shimano or 
>>> Yokozuma...but these seem to be it, anyway, and they have other advantages, 
>>> at least in the V-brake version. I'm not sure if they're lockerupppers 
>>> (that has an odd political feel to it these days, not intended), but they 
>>> are remarkable, and if I didn't know what pads I had, I'd think wow, these 
>>> are amazing, I want more..
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Tim Gavin >> > wrote:
>>>
 Joe-  

 With QR wheels, it can be tricky to get the disc rotor in *exactly* the 
 same place as the last time.  The answer is to use the exact same method 
 each time you replace a wheel.

 Through-axles make this more fool-proof.

 But there will be neither disc brakes nor through-axles on the upcoming 
 Riv MTB, so it's irrelevant here.  Grant will build what he wants, and 
 with 
 the more "reasonable" MIT pricing, he'll sell all the bikes he orders.  


 Speaking of irrelevant elephants, I think "Olyphant" is a good name for 
 this upcoming Rivbike, as it harkens back to the mammoth badge on the 
 Hunq.  

 But not Timothy Olyphant, that name is taken.





 P.S.
 Personally, I prefer disc brakes on most bikes.  But then, I'm #250 and 
 have regularly been disappointed with the stopping power of rim brakes.  
 Even with Paul Racers, I could never lock up the front wheel on my Riv 
 

Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Ron Mc]

those are the pads Paul brakes were designed for, and the only pads that 
Paul sells.  
Achieving proper alignment and toe is everything in brakes, and good 
cartridge pads with some degree of spherical freedom is the answer.  

   

The Yokozuna  cartridges took the Weinmann SPs from marginally scary to 
more than adequate.  The Dura cartridges gave the CPs all the power of Paul 
cantis (there's nothing beyond lockup), but of course not the modulation of 
Paul cantis.  


On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 6:41:56 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Ok I agree that all of the popular style of brake design can be made into 
> very good brakes but.
>
> I have never owned or even ridden a bike with "disk" brakes, but looking 
> at them they seem to offer two advantages.  First they can accommodate much 
> larger pads; second, their position, further from the road could make them 
> less likely to get grimy, especially with road tar & oil.  (See my last 
> paragraph on this.)
>
> While all the currently popular designs are functional, good brakes & good 
> braking relies just as much on three other variables - execution, setup, 
> and maintenance.
>
> Many years ago I put a pair of Dia Compe hi profile cantis on a Trek 620. 
>  They looked like a good brake with a very traditional design but nothing 
> ever improved their very weak power.  I concluded that it wasn't the design 
> but the execution.  About 20 years ago I had a set of Shimano low profile 
> cantis mated to Ultegra brifters.  They were very difficult to set up and 
> barely stopped the bike.  The brifters simply pulled too much cable for 
> them.  Switching to Tectro levers helped quite a bit, but ultimately bought 
> a set of Paul's neo Retros and felt much safer on my daily commute.  I now 
> owe Paul my life, which makes me a pretty loyal user!
>
> Finally maintenance.  Recently, in a single day the braking on our tandem 
> went from deteriorating to almost non existent. I cleaned the rims, which 
> had road tar on them.  Things did not get better.  Inspection showed that 
> the salmon pads also had black smear across the surface.  I had to file off 
> a micrometer of pad to get back to rubber.
>
> Finally, there may not be a need for "better" pads but there is a need for 
> different pads.  I find that the slimline pads are much easier to set up on 
> bikes with wide rims, at least with my Paul's brakes.  In fact they are the 
> only pads that will not brush the tire on their way to the rims.
>
> Michael
>
> On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday we'll have some really good brake pads. I found out about them 
>> from a customer/friend, who is not prone to raving and wasn't trying to 
>> "turn me on" to his favorite widget, so I listened a bit harder and we got 
>> samples. There's no need for better brake pads than Shimano or 
>> Yokozuma...but these seem to be it, anyway, and they have other advantages, 
>> at least in the V-brake version. I'm not sure if they're lockerupppers 
>> (that has an odd political feel to it these days, not intended), but they 
>> are remarkable, and if I didn't know what pads I had, I'd think wow, these 
>> are amazing, I want more..
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Tim Gavin  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe-  
>>>
>>> With QR wheels, it can be tricky to get the disc rotor in *exactly* the 
>>> same place as the last time.  The answer is to use the exact same method 
>>> each time you replace a wheel.
>>>
>>> Through-axles make this more fool-proof.
>>>
>>> But there will be neither disc brakes nor through-axles on the upcoming 
>>> Riv MTB, so it's irrelevant here.  Grant will build what he wants, and with 
>>> the more "reasonable" MIT pricing, he'll sell all the bikes he orders.  
>>>
>>>
>>> Speaking of irrelevant elephants, I think "Olyphant" is a good name for 
>>> this upcoming Rivbike, as it harkens back to the mammoth badge on the 
>>> Hunq.  
>>>
>>> But not Timothy Olyphant, that name is taken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> P.S.
>>> Personally, I prefer disc brakes on most bikes.  But then, I'm #250 and 
>>> have regularly been disappointed with the stopping power of rim brakes.  
>>> Even with Paul Racers, I could never lock up the front wheel on my Riv Road 
>>> (not that I would want to, but it's a measure of braking power).  It was 
>>> frustrating to fully squeeze the brake lever and still feel the bike 
>>> creeping forward.  And this was with very well tuned brakes with a low 
>>> straddle cable.
>>>
>>> I just replaced the fork on my Riv Road with the spare forks Crust was 
>>> selling (from the Romanceur, I believe).  Now I have low trail, rack 
>>> eyelets, and a disc brake on my touring bike.
>>>
>>> My next MTB will have a steel frame, but will be otherwise pretty 
>>> modern.  I'm starting to build up an All-City Electric Queen 
>>> !

Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Michael Hechmer]

Ok I agree that all of the popular style of brake design can be made into 
very good brakes but.

I have never owned or even ridden a bike with "disk" brakes, but looking at 
them they seem to offer two advantages.  First they can accommodate much 
larger pads; second, their position, further from the road could make them 
less likely to get grimy, especially with road tar & oil.  (See my last 
paragraph on this.)

While all the currently popular designs are functional, good brakes & good 
braking relies just as much on three other variables - execution, setup, 
and maintenance.

Many years ago I put a pair of Dia Compe hi profile cantis on a Trek 620. 
 They looked like a good brake with a very traditional design but nothing 
ever improved their very weak power.  I concluded that it wasn't the design 
but the execution.  About 20 years ago I had a set of Shimano low profile 
cantis mated to Ultegra brifters.  They were very difficult to set up and 
barely stopped the bike.  The brifters simply pulled too much cable for 
them.  Switching to Tectro levers helped quite a bit, but ultimately bought 
a set of Paul's neo Retros and felt much safer on my daily commute.  I now 
owe Paul my life, which makes me a pretty loyal user!

Finally maintenance.  Recently, in a single day the braking on our tandem 
went from deteriorating to almost non existent. I cleaned the rims, which 
had road tar on them.  Things did not get better.  Inspection showed that 
the salmon pads also had black smear across the surface.  I had to file off 
a micrometer of pad to get back to rubber.

Finally, there may not be a need for "better" pads but there is a need for 
different pads.  I find that the slimline pads are much easier to set up on 
bikes with wide rims, at least with my Paul's brakes.  In fact they are the 
only pads that will not brush the tire on their way to the rims.

Michael

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> On Tuesday we'll have some really good brake pads. I found out about them 
> from a customer/friend, who is not prone to raving and wasn't trying to 
> "turn me on" to his favorite widget, so I listened a bit harder and we got 
> samples. There's no need for better brake pads than Shimano or 
> Yokozuma...but these seem to be it, anyway, and they have other advantages, 
> at least in the V-brake version. I'm not sure if they're lockerupppers 
> (that has an odd political feel to it these days, not intended), but they 
> are remarkable, and if I didn't know what pads I had, I'd think wow, these 
> are amazing, I want more..
>
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Tim Gavin  > wrote:
>
>> Joe-  
>>
>> With QR wheels, it can be tricky to get the disc rotor in *exactly* the 
>> same place as the last time.  The answer is to use the exact same method 
>> each time you replace a wheel.
>>
>> Through-axles make this more fool-proof.
>>
>> But there will be neither disc brakes nor through-axles on the upcoming 
>> Riv MTB, so it's irrelevant here.  Grant will build what he wants, and with 
>> the more "reasonable" MIT pricing, he'll sell all the bikes he orders.  
>>
>>
>> Speaking of irrelevant elephants, I think "Olyphant" is a good name for 
>> this upcoming Rivbike, as it harkens back to the mammoth badge on the 
>> Hunq.  
>>
>> But not Timothy Olyphant, that name is taken.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> P.S.
>> Personally, I prefer disc brakes on most bikes.  But then, I'm #250 and 
>> have regularly been disappointed with the stopping power of rim brakes.  
>> Even with Paul Racers, I could never lock up the front wheel on my Riv Road 
>> (not that I would want to, but it's a measure of braking power).  It was 
>> frustrating to fully squeeze the brake lever and still feel the bike 
>> creeping forward.  And this was with very well tuned brakes with a low 
>> straddle cable.
>>
>> I just replaced the fork on my Riv Road with the spare forks Crust was 
>> selling (from the Romanceur, I believe).  Now I have low trail, rack 
>> eyelets, and a disc brake on my touring bike.
>>
>> My next MTB will have a steel frame, but will be otherwise pretty 
>> modern.  I'm starting to build up an All-City Electric Queen 
>> !
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Joe Bernard > > wrote:
>>
>>> Well I said I was going to let it go so I will, but you shouldn't be 
>>> having to reset your brakes every time you pull a wheel on a disc bike. The 
>>> pads don't come out of adjustment unless you're knocking them back. Don't 
>>> knock them back. 
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>> .
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>>> For 

Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Ron Mc]

When I built up my bare-frame '98 Moser, got a set of new shopworn Chorus 
brakes for $65, removed from a floor bike to replace with new skeletons.  



They came with cork pads for carbon rims.  Didn't last long, but the most 
freaking-amazing brakes I've ever had on a bike.  


On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 11:39:43 PM UTC-5, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> Sidepulls are easiest for me too. Thanks for the comparison to the Compass 
> brakes. I love my Tektro R559 brakes. R539 are awesome, too.

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Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

[Lum Gim Fong]

Sidepulls are easiest for me too. Thanks for the comparison to the Compass 
brakes. I love my Tektro R559 brakes. R539 are awesome, too.

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Re: [RBW] Re: stopping and rim brakes

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have a Hunqapillar with canti brakes, a Hilsen and Roadeo with side pulls, a 
MAP with crazy expensive Compass centerpulls, and the tandem with V brakes. 
Here's a though I've never, ever had, period..."I wish this bike stopped 
better." They are all absolutely fine. I pull that handle and the bike slows 
down. I pull it a little harder and it slows down quicker. I will say that the 
sidepulls on the Hilsen and Roadeo seem to be better than than the, in my 
opinion, over-hyped Compass, but they're all fine. Sidepulls also are the 
easiest to set up and adjust, at least for me. 

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