subject:"\[RBW\] Saddle Height"

[RBW] Saddle Height

2023-08-20 Thread Matt

Newb here, but long time Rivendell lurker. Chatted to Will today about a 
Platypus and he mentioned saddle height. My BPH is 83cm (self measured - 
pretty sure it was to bone but maybe another cm?). Currently riding an 
ebike, which feels like driving an automatic only worse, so I'm not sure 
the saddle height is a good indication of what's ideal with a real bicycle. 
Any thoughts on measuring or extrapolating from PBH? 

btw looking for 55/60cm Platypus, but may well wait for the next stock. 

Lovely group, this. Thanks for the edification.

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and PBH

2023-03-11 Thread Jay Lonner

So here’s a 3-month followup for those interested. Brief recap: I was querying the list about the ~18 cm difference between my 93 cm PBH and 75 cm saddle height, which is at odds with the recommended ~10-11 cm.First off, I decided to really make sure that I was measuring my PBH accurately. My prior estimate of 93-94 cm was based on Riv’s recommendation to put a yardstick between your legs and pretend like you’re trying to lift yourself off the ground. It’s a clever descriptor, but not foolproof — to some extent the value you get depends on how much discomfort you can put up with. This time I went with “firm but not intolerable pressure” as an endpoint, instead of “trying out for the Vienna Boys’ Choir.” After multiple measurements I wound up with a new PBH of 91 cm.I then raised my saddle from 75 to 79 cm, which brought things to a much more reasonable 12 cm difference between saddle height and PBH. The Catalyst pedals that I favor, which are designed for midfoot pedaling, account for another 1-2 cm, per the manufacturer’s recommendation. So that brings me squarely in line with the 10-11 cm guideline.So how does it feel? I have to say, much better. Pedaling efficiency seems improved, and it feels like I’m engaging my core more. My shoulders are more relaxed, and the hand numbness that I’ve struggled with off and on for years has basically resolved. My hamstrings also seem less tight. In this more leaned over posture, the backs of my upper thighs were brushing against my B68, so I switched back to a B17 (no the B68 isn’t for sale).I guess the moral of the story is that I’ve never approached bike fit systematically — I’ve just kind of vibed my way to what seemed right, and that has been to my detriment. Thanks to everyone for the input, it’s really made a difference in my riding.Jay LonnerBellingham, WASent from my Atari 400On Dec 12, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Jay Lonner wrote:I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbhThis suggests that based on my PBH my saddle height should be closer to 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.Jay LonnerBellingham, WA

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-15 Thread Andy Beichler

I am not very flexible.  Even when I was young, before I hit my growth 
spurt, touching my toes was difficult at best.  I have a 92 PBH and run my 
saddle around 78 cm.  Anything higher and I feel like I am reaching for the 
pedal.  I usually just get it in the ballpark and adjust it if I start to 
hurt.

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 4:26:06 PM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:

> I'm about your same size (36"/91cm PBH), but I run a 32"/81cm saddle 
> height (bottom bracket center to top of my (of course) level saddle). I 
> couldn't imagine pedaling with my saddle 6cm lower.
>
> When I played around with mid foot pedaling, I found I had to drop my 
> saddle, but less than an inch. 
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 12:49 PM Jay Lonner  wrote:
>
>> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. 
>> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have 
>> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>>
>> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 
>> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. 
>> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For 
>> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>>
>> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>>
>> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to 
>> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my 
>> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, 
>> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and 
>> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe 
>> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of 
>> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is 
>> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. 
>>
>> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle 
>> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at 
>> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and 
>> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a 
>> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors 
>> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations 
>> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the 
>> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>>
>> Jay Lonner
>> Bellingham, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-15 Thread Patrick Moore

Whoops, that's 4 *centimeters* ...

On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 2:13 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I agree that rules of thumb are only starting points. The heel-on-pedal at
> max leg extension puts my saddle a good 3 cm too low as I like a lot of leg
> extension and tend to pedal toe-down. But it's a good starting point.
>
> And get your saddle set back to where it is comfortable before doing
> anything else; IMO and IME, saddle height and setback are the 2 primary
> adjustments around which all others are determined.
>
> But heck, if you've been comfortable with your previous "4-inches-too-low"
> and slammed back saddle -- no hip-rockin', no aching quads, no strained
> whatever it is along the inside of the thigh, you have been doing it right.
>
> But I disagree that standover is a negligible part of fit; try an
> emergency dismount on a steep slope facing uphill.
>
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:49 AM Jay Lonner  wrote:
>
>> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit.
>> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have
>> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>>
>> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size
>> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost.
>> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For
>> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>>
>> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>>
>> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to
>> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my
>> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird,
>> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and
>> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe
>> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of
>> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is
>> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest.
>>
>> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle
>> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at
>> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and
>> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a
>> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors
>> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations
>> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the
>> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>>
>> Jay Lonner
>> Bellingham, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cf9d0b0a-c497-4181-9c30-afdac0d6f54bn%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-15 Thread Patrick Moore

I agree that rules of thumb are only starting points. The heel-on-pedal at
max leg extension puts my saddle a good 3 cm too low as I like a lot of leg
extension and tend to pedal toe-down. But it's a good starting point.

And get your saddle set back to where it is comfortable before doing
anything else; IMO and IME, saddle height and setback are the 2 primary
adjustments around which all others are determined.

But heck, if you've been comfortable with your previous "4-inches-too-low"
and slammed back saddle -- no hip-rockin', no aching quads, no strained
whatever it is along the inside of the thigh, you have been doing it right.

But I disagree that standover is a negligible part of fit; try an emergency
dismount on a steep slope facing uphill.

On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:49 AM Jay Lonner  wrote:

> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit.
> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have
> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>
> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size
> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost.
> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For
> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>
> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to
> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my
> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird,
> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and
> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe
> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of
> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is
> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest.
>
> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle
> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at
> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and
> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a
> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors
> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations
> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the
> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cf9d0b0a-c497-4181-9c30-afdac0d6f54bn%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-14 Thread 'Slacky Mac' via RBW Owners Bunch

Thanks (thank you, thank you) for bringing attention to the the Catalyst 
pedal - I think it will be a godsend for me.  I deal with an injury related 
neuropathy in my left calf muscle which prevents me from doing things like 
a tippy toe on that side.  Had to sell my pristine manual ‘07 Honda S2000 
as I could no longer use the clutch safely - a tragedy!  Being able to 
incorporate more of my foot on the pedal will be wonderful as I half-foot 
my left pedal now and it is a struggle.  I measure to a 76cm saddle height 
based on PBH, but it runs closer to 70cm in actual use.  Not ideal, but 
better than siting on the couch.

With a new Sam ordered, I now think I will now request the smaller 170MM 
crank as part of the build to help balance things out.

Sure glad I found this group!

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 8:59:19 AM UTC-5 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Jay, I noticed your mention of the Pedaling Innovations Catalyst pedal. If 
> you are using a mid-foot position on your pedals ( I do) you may need to 
> adjust your saddle down 2-3 cm. I discovered this on my own then confirmed 
> it with Pedaling Innovations. For this and other reasons I do not favor the 
> PBH method of determining saddle height. It’s more a guideline than a rule. 
> I have used the knee slightly bent at bottom of stroke for 50 years without 
> injury or incident.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 12, 2022, at 12:49 PM, Jay Lonner  wrote:
>
> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. 
> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have 
> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>
>
> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 
> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. 
> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For 
> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>
> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to 
> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my 
> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, 
> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and 
> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe 
> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of 
> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is 
> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. 
>
> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle 
> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at 
> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and 
> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a 
> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors 
> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations 
> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the 
> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cf9d0b0a-c497-4181-9c30-afdac0d6f54bn%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-13 Thread Mackenzy Albright

I find a more slack seat tube I run my saddle a bit lower than a steeper 
counterpart. 

Ride whatever is comfortable. Don't worry too much about stand over. French 
fit looks great. 

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 5:59:19 AM UTC-8 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Jay, I noticed your mention of the Pedaling Innovations Catalyst pedal. If 
> you are using a mid-foot position on your pedals ( I do) you may need to 
> adjust your saddle down 2-3 cm. I discovered this on my own then confirmed 
> it with Pedaling Innovations. For this and other reasons I do not favor the 
> PBH method of determining saddle height. It’s more a guideline than a rule. 
> I have used the knee slightly bent at bottom of stroke for 50 years without 
> injury or incident.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 12, 2022, at 12:49 PM, Jay Lonner  wrote:
>
> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. 
> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have 
> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>
>
> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 
> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. 
> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For 
> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>
> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to 
> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my 
> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, 
> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and 
> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe 
> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of 
> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is 
> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. 
>
> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle 
> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at 
> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and 
> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a 
> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors 
> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations 
> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the 
> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cf9d0b0a-c497-4181-9c30-afdac0d6f54bn%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-13 Thread Richard Rose

Jay, I noticed your mention of the Pedaling Innovations Catalyst pedal. If you are using a mid-foot position on your pedals ( I do) you may need to adjust your saddle down 2-3 cm. I discovered this on my own then confirmed it with Pedaling Innovations. For this and other reasons I do not favor the PBH method of determining saddle height. It’s more a guideline than a rule. I have used the knee slightly bent at bottom of stroke for 50 years without injury or incident.Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 12, 2022, at 12:49 PM, Jay Lonner wrote:I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbhThis suggests that based on my PBH my saddle height should be closer to 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.Jay LonnerBellingham, WA

Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-12 Thread Eric Daume

I'm about your same size (36"/91cm PBH), but I run a 32"/81cm saddle height
(bottom bracket center to top of my (of course) level saddle). I couldn't
imagine pedaling with my saddle 6cm lower.

When I played around with mid foot pedaling, I found I had to drop my
saddle, but less than an inch.

Eric


On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 12:49 PM Jay Lonner  wrote:

> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit.
> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have
> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>
> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size
> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost.
> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For
> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>
> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to
> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my
> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird,
> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and
> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe
> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of
> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is
> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest.
>
> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle
> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at
> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and
> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a
> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors
> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations
> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the
> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
>
>
>
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> .
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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-12 Thread Eliot B


If you put the heel of your foot on the pedal and rotate it to the furthest 
point away from you, you should be just about locked out. When you then put 
the ball of your foot on the pedal like you normally ride, you will be just 
shy of full extension which should be a good ball park. You want the saddle 
as high as it will go without causing rocking in your hips or over 
extension in your legs. 
On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 10:06:58 AM UTC-8 cjus...@gmail.com wrote:

> Standover is generally a non-issue and should be of limited consideration 
> for fit purposes, all things being equal.
>
> I do believe your saddle height has been very low based on the fact that I 
> have an 83cm PBH and run a height of 72cm.  The Riv guidance looks to be 
> within expected range.
>
> Generally recommend dialing in saddle setback first and since yours is 
> slammed back, I would recommend centering it on the rails and raising it a 
> little further.  If you can sit  on the bike (with someone holding it 
> upright for you) and hover your hands over the bars without engaging too 
> much core strength, you are probably in a good spot with respect to saddle 
> setback (and its relation to bar height).  If your weight distribution with 
> the new setback leans you into the bars and puts weight on your wrists, 
> then still work to do (fore, aft, tilt, relationship to bars etc.)  
>
> Saddle height should be such that your legs come close to full extension 
> on downstroke but do not lock out and does not create side to side hip 
> movement (reaching for the pedals).
>
> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 11:55:35 AM UTC-6 Jay Lonner wrote:
>
>> Please note the typo in the subject heading - I am referring to PBH 
>> (pubic bone height) and not BPH (benign prostatic hypertrophy) which is 
>> another, separate factor of potential interest to bike riding men of a 
>> certain age…
>>
>> Sent from my Atari 400
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Jay Lonner  wrote:
>>
>> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. 
>> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have 
>> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>>
>>
>> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 
>> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. 
>> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For 
>> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>>
>> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>>
>> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to 
>> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my 
>> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, 
>> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and 
>> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe 
>> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of 
>> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is 
>> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. 
>>
>> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle 
>> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at 
>> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and 
>> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a 
>> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors 
>> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations 
>> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the 
>> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>>
>> Jay Lonner
>> Bellingham, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cf9d0b0a-c497-4181-9c30-afdac0d6f54bn%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-12 Thread Justus G

Standover is generally a non-issue and should be of limited consideration 
for fit purposes, all things being equal.

I do believe your saddle height has been very low based on the fact that I 
have an 83cm PBH and run a height of 72cm.  The Riv guidance looks to be 
within expected range.

Generally recommend dialing in saddle setback first and since yours is 
slammed back, I would recommend centering it on the rails and raising it a 
little further.  If you can sit  on the bike (with someone holding it 
upright for you) and hover your hands over the bars without engaging too 
much core strength, you are probably in a good spot with respect to saddle 
setback (and its relation to bar height).  If your weight distribution with 
the new setback leans you into the bars and puts weight on your wrists, 
then still work to do (fore, aft, tilt, relationship to bars etc.)  

Saddle height should be such that your legs come close to full extension on 
downstroke but do not lock out and does not create side to side hip 
movement (reaching for the pedals).

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 11:55:35 AM UTC-6 Jay Lonner wrote:

> Please note the typo in the subject heading - I am referring to PBH (pubic 
> bone height) and not BPH (benign prostatic hypertrophy) which is another, 
> separate factor of potential interest to bike riding men of a certain age…
>
> Sent from my Atari 400
>
> On Dec 12, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Jay Lonner  wrote:
>
> I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. 
> I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have 
> maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.
>
>
> So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 
> 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. 
> Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For 
> reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh
>
> This suggests that based on my  PBH my saddle height should be closer to 
> 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my 
> saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, 
> which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and 
> my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe 
> maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of 
> embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is 
> still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. 
>
> So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle 
> height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at 
> other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and 
> even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a 
> S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors 
> might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations 
> platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the 
> optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
>
>
>
> -- 
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-12 Thread Jay Lonner

Please note the typo in the subject heading - I am referring to PBH (pubic bone height) and not BPH (benign prostatic hypertrophy) which is another, separate factor of potential interest to bike riding men of a certain age…Sent from my Atari 400On Dec 12, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Jay Lonner wrote:I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. I’m a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have maybe 2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size 62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost. Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbhThis suggests that based on my PBH my saddle height should be closer to 83 cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my saddle height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, which of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and my feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe maneuvers. So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of embarrassing. Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is still ~4cm lower than my PBH would suggest. So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.Jay LonnerBellingham, WA

[RBW] Saddle height and BPH

2022-12-12 Thread Jay Lonner

I just took delivery of a new (non-Riv) bike and am dialing in the fit. I’m
a little worried that the frame is too big for me, since I only have maybe
2” standover, which seems tight for a gravel bike.

So I went out and measured the saddle height on my Hunq (which is a size
62). It came in at about 75cm. This gives me a solid fistful of seatpost.
Then I remeasured my PBH, which is 93-94 cm depending on hard I pull. For
reference, here’s the relevant page from HQ:

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-bone-height-how-to-measure-your-pbh

This suggests that based on my PBH my saddle height should be closer to 83
cm – an 8cm discrepancy. Before riding in this morning I raised my saddle
height to 79 cm, basically splitting the difference. It felt weird, which
of course it would after so many years at 75cm. But I made it in and my
feet were in full contact with the pedals without any tippytoe maneuvers.
So I guess I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time? Kind of embarrassing.
Even so, according to the Riv method my saddle height is still ~4cm lower
than my PBH would suggest.

So I guess I’m wondering about alternative ways of determining saddle
height somewhat objectively, and/or whether I should now be looking at
other variables such as a fore-aft saddle positioning, saddle angle, and
even saddle type (currently a B68, slammed back as far as it can go on a
S83, with the nose pitched up ~10 degrees or so). Other relevant factors
might be crank arm length (175mm), pedal height (Pedaling Innovations
platform pedals), and shoes (Chuck Taylors, typically). Looking for the
optimum balance of comfort, efficiency, and protecting my perineum.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

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[RBW] Saddle height for new Flyer (vs current B17) on Joe Appaloosa

2017-08-01 Thread Kai Vierstra

The springs aren't very springy, set it the same.
-Kai 
BK NY 

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-30 Thread Richard Rios

I prefer the heel on pedal method plus a few hairs up. I found Riv's 
recomendation of pbh -10 or 11 put me a tad high. Always felt like I was 
reaching for the pedals and my toes were pointed down to much for my taste. I 
prefer a flatter foot while pedaling. I end up around 72.5-73 with a 85 cm pbh 
measured by the old book jammed up crotch method.

Richard "it's close either way though" rios

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-30 Thread Patrick Moore

Christopher: any saddle height rule is only a "rule of thumb." It's a
starting point, like KOPS. Measure per Grant or whomever; ride; adjust.

Patrick Moore, who has recently very slightly reduced his saddle setback
over the center of the bb spindle.

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Christopher Cote <
christopherjamesc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm curious how many here find that Grant's "rule" about saddle height
> being 10-11cm lower than PBH to be true for them. My PBH is 86cm and for
> the longest time, ran my saddle at 75cm from the center of the cranks.
> Lately, I switched from clipless pedals to flats, and now that the weather
> is warm, I have been riding in Bedrock Sandals. Because the soles are so
> thin, I had to lower my saddle a bit. I've also been dealing with some knee
> pain and came across these articles: https://www.
> stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/02/seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be/ and
> https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-
> seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/. I think a lot of what he says is going
> on for me: knee and back pain, tilted hips, pedaling toes-down, etc. I went
> for a ride this morning and stopped to lower my saddle a few times. No new
> knee pain (same as before), and now I feel like I can pedal with a more
> level foot. My legs are still pretty far extended at the bottom of the
> stroke, and I can't reach them at the bottom with my heels (another
> possibly flawed guide for setting saddle height). When I got home I
> measured the saddle height at 73cm. I know the Bedrock sandals are thin,
> but I doubt they're 2cm thinner than my clipless pedals and shoe combo.
> Maybe the additional sole flex makes them effectively even thinner?
>
> Chris
>
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[RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-29 Thread Jay Connolly

My PBH is 95 and I run my saddles (180/178 cranks) at 85. On my Joe, I use 
Pedaling Innovations long pedals and push my foot further forward. The saddle 
on that one is at 84. (Jury still out on the overall value of the pedals, but I 
no longer suffer excruciating hot foot on long rides, so that aspect of the 
experiment has been a success.)

Jay

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[RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-29 Thread Kai Vierstra

Not true for me, I'm losing about 13 from my pbh, with 178 cranks.
-Kai
BK NY 

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Re: [RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-29 Thread Steven Sweedler

Chris, it works  for me, a pbh of 91 and a saddle height of 81, most of my
riding is in Shimano or Chaco sandals, all on platform  pedals. Steve
On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 7:20 PM Christopher Cote <
christopherjamesc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm curious how many here find that Grant's "rule" about saddle height
> being 10-11cm lower than PBH to be true for them. My PBH is 86cm and for
> the longest time, ran my saddle at 75cm from the center of the cranks.
> Lately, I switched from clipless pedals to flats, and now that the weather
> is warm, I have been riding in Bedrock Sandals. Because the soles are so
> thin, I had to lower my saddle a bit. I've also been dealing with some knee
> pain and came across these articles:
> https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/02/seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be/
>  and
>
> https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/.
> I think a lot of what he says is going on for me: knee and back pain,
> tilted hips, pedaling toes-down, etc. I went for a ride this morning and
> stopped to lower my saddle a few times. No new knee pain (same as before),
> and now I feel like I can pedal with a more level foot. My legs are still
> pretty far extended at the bottom of the stroke, and I can't reach them at
> the bottom with my heels (another possibly flawed guide for setting saddle
> height). When I got home I measured the saddle height at 73cm. I know the
> Bedrock sandals are thin, but I doubt they're 2cm thinner than my clipless
> pedals and shoe combo. Maybe the additional sole flex makes them
> effectively even thinner?
>
> Chris
>
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Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-29 Thread Garth

As you know, what GP summizes as a starting point for saddle height is based on 
his experience and assumptions. Of course, we all have our own. I don't think 
he means it as the one and only way, just his experience and he's passing it 
along. 

Like all fit questions, the variables are infinite, and trying to "figure it 
out and pin it down for yourself", is utter futility. 

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[RBW] Saddle height vs PBH

2017-07-29 Thread Christopher Cote

I'm curious how many here find that Grant's "rule" about saddle height
being 10-11cm lower than PBH to be true for them. My PBH is 86cm and for
the longest time, ran my saddle at 75cm from the center of the cranks.
Lately, I switched from clipless pedals to flats, and now that the weather
is warm, I have been riding in Bedrock Sandals. Because the soles are so
thin, I had to lower my saddle a bit. I've also been dealing with some knee
pain and came across these articles:
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/02/seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be/
and
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/.

I think a lot of what he says is going on for me: knee and back pain,
tilted hips, pedaling toes-down, etc. I went for a ride this morning and
stopped to lower my saddle a few times. No new knee pain (same as before),
and now I feel like I can pedal with a more level foot. My legs are still
pretty far extended at the bottom of the stroke, and I can't reach them at
the bottom with my heels (another possibly flawed guide for setting saddle
height). When I got home I measured the saddle height at 73cm. I know the
Bedrock sandals are thin, but I doubt they're 2cm thinner than my clipless
pedals and shoe combo. Maybe the additional sole flex makes them
effectively even thinner?

Chris

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-21 Thread happyriding

On Apr 21, 12:14 am, RM b...@san.rr.com wrote:
 On Apr 20, 2010, at 10:19 PM, happyriding wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for the response.

  On Apr 20, 10:09 am, RM b...@san.rr.com wrote:
 Besides establishing a better position on the bike for increasing my power 
 output ability, I also came away no longer suffering from shoulder blade area 
 pain on long rides. I do not know if he is still personally doing bike fits, 
 but he is still listed on staff at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine.


Any one specific thing you can attribute to solving your shoulder
aches?

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[RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Jay LePree

Hi all:

One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.  The
measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

Here are the questions.  How many of you use this formula?  Do you
adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
(Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15.  I would like to raise
it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
have been.

Regards,

Jay
Demarest, NJ

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Re: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Bruce

Jay:

After numerous saddle tweaks, I found that all my saddles ended up at 67 cm in 
height from the BB center, and my PBH is 78, so I'd say the Riv formula works 
really well for me. I measure through the center-line of the seat post. Moving 
the saddle back or forward changes the measurement due to the angle I pitch the 
saddle at, so yes, I have to raise or lower the seat post if I slide the saddle 
around.  Also, if I wear thick soled shoes (like KSwiss hikers), I have to 
raise the saddle for efficient pedaling. My standard is based on Addidas 
Sambas, or my Summer sandals (Teva and Nike) which have the same sole thickness.

Rather than tune your saddle to numbers on the riv site, you might try small 
changes in height to see where the sweet spot is for you. That's giving you an 
efficient stroke (you feel all the leg power going into the pedals when 
climbing or accelerating) and you have no pain in front and above your knees or 
just behind your knees. Then see how your numbers compare. You can of course 
just try the riv suggestions and see how they go, and tweak from there. small 
increments though regardless.

Bruce





From: Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net
To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 6:46:17 AM
Subject: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

Hi all:

The RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11. 

 How many of you use this formula?  
Do youadjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
(Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)


  

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Tim McNamara



On Apr 20, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Jay LePree wrote:


Hi all:

One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.


There's a lot of variation in this and a lot of factors (e.g., how  
far your saddle is pushed back), whether you pedal toe down, heel  
down or foot about level, etc.  Your flexibility is also an issue.   
So is the relative strength of different muscle groups.  Bike fit is  
a dynamic rather than static thing.  Just measuring lengths, which  
most scientific fitting systems do, is not enough.


Through years of trial and error adjustments, reading lots of things  
on the topic, etc., I have arrived at a saddle height that is PBH  
-9.5 cm.


My advice is raise the saddle until your hips start rocking and then  
lower it a bit.  Move it fore and aft until your weight distribution  
between the saddle and the handlebars is comfortable.  Then do the  
measurements.


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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread stevep33

The formula is spot on for me.  PBH 81.5 SH 71.
I check it by putting the heel of my foot on the pedal with that crank
rotated to about 6 or 7 o'clock; if my leg is fairly straight and my
hips don't rock up/down while trying to keep my heel on the pedal,
then the saddle height is about right for me. This rough check works
well for me.  Finer adjustments are just by feel.

On Apr 20, 8:32 am, Bruce fullylug...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jay:

 After numerous saddle tweaks, I found that all my saddles ended up at 67 cm 
 in height from the BB center, and my PBH is 78, so I'd say the Riv formula 
 works really well for me. I measure through the center-line of the seat post. 
 Moving the saddle back or forward changes the measurement due to the angle I 
 pitch the saddle at, so yes, I have to raise or lower the seat post if I 
 slide the saddle around.  Also, if I wear thick soled shoes (like KSwiss 
 hikers), I have to raise the saddle for efficient pedaling. My standard is 
 based on Addidas Sambas, or my Summer sandals (Teva and Nike) which have the 
 same sole thickness.

 Rather than tune your saddle to numbers on the riv site, you might try small 
 changes in height to see where the sweet spot is for you. That's giving you 
 an efficient stroke (you feel all the leg power going into the pedals when 
 climbing or accelerating) and you have no pain in front and above your knees 
 or just behind your knees. Then see how your numbers compare. You can of 
 course just try the riv suggestions and see how they go, and tweak from 
 there. small increments though regardless.

 Bruce

 
 From: Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net
 To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 6:46:17 AM
 Subject: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

 Hi all:

 The RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.

  How many of you use this formula?  
 Do youadjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
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 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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 athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread newenglandbike

I found that Rivendell's formula SH - 10 or 11 puts the seat a tad low
for me. My experience has been PBH - 9.0 cm.I'm also positive
I'm not under-measuring my pbh, as I've measured it myself with one
other person, pulled up until it hurt, had it done at the LBS and it's
always the same (or below my biggest measurement). I find that my
knees are pretty sensitive to a seat that's too low, even by 1 or 2
cm, unless I'm riding standing out of the saddle all the time.

Other potentially influencing data points for my SH:

-MKS touring pedals
-usually ride in a pair of sneakers
-size 10
-do not ride on my toes
-brooks b17/nitto crystal fellow

If the fronts of your knees feel sore after a ride, a good first thing
to check is your seat height, to make sure it's not too low.  I've
read that a good method for finding the sweet spot is to set the
saddle too high (which in terms of rideability, is impossible to
ignore even for short distances) and incrementally lower it until you
can ride the bike normally.



Matt



On Apr 20, 8:32 am, Bruce fullylug...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jay:

 After numerous saddle tweaks, I found that all my saddles ended up at 67 cm 
 in height from the BB center, and my PBH is 78, so I'd say the Riv formula 
 works really well for me. I measure through the center-line of the seat post. 
 Moving the saddle back or forward changes the measurement due to the angle I 
 pitch the saddle at, so yes, I have to raise or lower the seat post if I 
 slide the saddle around.  Also, if I wear thick soled shoes (like KSwiss 
 hikers), I have to raise the saddle for efficient pedaling. My standard is 
 based on Addidas Sambas, or my Summer sandals (Teva and Nike) which have the 
 same sole thickness.

 Rather than tune your saddle to numbers on the riv site, you might try small 
 changes in height to see where the sweet spot is for you. That's giving you 
 an efficient stroke (you feel all the leg power going into the pedals when 
 climbing or accelerating) and you have no pain in front and above your knees 
 or just behind your knees. Then see how your numbers compare. You can of 
 course just try the riv suggestions and see how they go, and tweak from 
 there. small increments though regardless.

 Bruce

 
 From: Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net
 To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 6:46:17 AM
 Subject: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

 Hi all:

 The RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.

  How many of you use this formula?  
 Do youadjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group 
 athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Michael_S

From the other side of the range... My PBH is 86 but a SH somewhere
around 72.5-73cm works best for me. I always measure on the centerline
even though I'm one of those long femured people who slides the saddle
back, even with 71.5 degree SA's.  I have had bike fitting done as
well and their recommendation is always higher than my hamstrings can
handle.

~Mike~

On Apr 20, 7:01 am, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:
 On Apr 20, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Jay LePree wrote:

  Hi all:

  One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
  RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.

 There's a lot of variation in this and a lot of factors (e.g., how  
 far your saddle is pushed back), whether you pedal toe down, heel  
 down or foot about level, etc.  Your flexibility is also an issue.  
 So is the relative strength of different muscle groups.  Bike fit is  
 a dynamic rather than static thing.  Just measuring lengths, which  
 most scientific fitting systems do, is not enough.

 Through years of trial and error adjustments, reading lots of things  
 on the topic, etc., I have arrived at a saddle height that is PBH  
 -9.5 cm.

 My advice is raise the saddle until your hips start rocking and then  
 lower it a bit.  Move it fore and aft until your weight distribution  
 between the saddle and the handlebars is comfortable.  Then do the  
 measurements.

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Re: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread PATRICK MOORE

I believe from my experience that finding the right height, horizontal
position and tilt for a saddle is a matter of personal experience and
preference, with rules being simply a more convenient starting point than,
say, starting with your saddle resting on the top tube.

So the question becomes: how do you feel presently? Do you feel the need or
desire to stretch your legs more? Raise the saddle a cm or so. Do you feel
as if you can't get power over the top of the stroke? Try pushing it back a
cm. Do you feel as if it is slowly slicing you in half? Lower it a cm. And
so on. For me, it took 20 years of riding before I learned my preferences,
and even now I continue to adjust slightly, by 5 mm increments, as season,
shoes and astrological signs vary (just kidding about the signs; I always do
my yearly height tuning in Mars/Ram.)

Seriously, if you are inexperienced, start with the Riv instructions and
adjust per the above.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:46 AM, Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net wrote:

Hi all:

One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask. The
RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11. The
measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

Here are the questions. How many of you use this formula? Do you
adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
(Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15. I would like to raise
it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
have been.

Regards,

Jay
Demarest, NJ

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--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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Re: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Bill Connell

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net wrote:
 Hi all:

 One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
 RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.  The
 measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
 bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

 Here are the questions.  How many of you use this formula?  Do you
 adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

 I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
 pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15.  I would like to raise
 it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
 have been.


I'll mostly echo what others have said: the Riv method is a great
starting point, but like everything else in bike fit, the details can
vary quite a bit. Tim's note to put the saddle up until your hips rock
then back it off a bit is good too. Make small adjustments, ride,
repeat. I can do this for days when i'm setting up a new bike, or
especially if i'm trying a new saddle. All of those parts have
different dimensions, so you just have to tweak.

Once you figure out what you're happy with, noting the resulting
measurements can make it easier to set up the next bike for yourself,
but the numbers themselves aren't important otherwise.

-- 
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Mojo

It worked perfectly for me; 89.2 PBH and settled on a saddle height of
79.3.

On Apr 20, 5:46 am, Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net wrote:
 Hi all:

 One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
 RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.  The
 measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
 bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

 Here are the questions.  How many of you use this formula?  Do you
 adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

 I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
 pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15.  I would like to raise
 it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
 have been.

 Regards,

 Jay
 Demarest, NJ

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Angus

Works well for me:

PBH: 89cm, Saddle Height 79cm.

If I go through all the LeMond formulas (which I believe came from a
French cycling team he road for early on) I end up at 79cm.

Angus


On Apr 20, 6:46 am, Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net wrote:
 Hi all:

 One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
 RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.  The
 measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
 bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

 Here are the questions.  How many of you use this formula?  Do you
 adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

 I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
 pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15.  I would like to raise
 it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
 have been.

 Regards,

 Jay
 Demarest, NJ

 --
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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Mike

PBH: 91cm, SH: 80cm.

I have four bikes and the saddle is at the same height on all of them.
I ride two of the bikes with platform pedals and two with SPDs. Like
others have said, the RBW system is a great starting place and get
definitely get you close to where you want to be. Good luck.

--mike

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Re: [RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread RM

My PBH: 87cm, SH: 76cm. 11cm difference

My saddle height was established 10 years ago during two training camps and 
bike fits at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine with Dr Andy Pruitt and has 
been spot on for my comfort ever since. There is no black magic to Rivendell's 
fit formula, it's about right in the center of what works for most people's 
bio-geometry.

Rob

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Re: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread James Dinneen

PBH minus 10, measured to the top of the saddle works great for me.
 Jim D.  Massachusetts

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net wrote:

From: Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net
Subject: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question
To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 7:46 AM

Hi all:

One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.  The
measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

Here are the questions.  How many of you use this formula?  Do you
adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
(Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15.  I would like to raise
it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
have been.

Regards,

Jay
Demarest, NJ

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread Jay LePree

Hi all:

Thanks for the responses and the clarifications.  I will try to raise
my saddle gradually and just test how I feel.  Again, I appreciate the
thoughtful responses.

Jay

On Apr 20, 6:14 pm, James Dinneen jfxdinn...@yahoo.com wrote:
 PBH minus 10, measured to the top of the saddle works great for me.
  Jim D.  Massachusetts

 --- On Tue, 4/20/10, Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net wrote:

 From: Jay LePree lep...@optonline.net
 Subject: [RBW] RBW Saddle Height question
 To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 7:46 AM

 Hi all:

 One of the things I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask.  The
 RBW method for determining saddle height is PBH - 10 to 11.  The
 measurement is made from center of the cranks (the spindle of the
 bottom bracket) to the top of the saddle.

 Here are the questions.  How many of you use this formula?  Do you
 adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?)

 I ask because my saddle height seems to be shorter than this (with MKS
 pedals and Addidas Sambas)..more like PBH - 15.  I would like to raise
 it to Riv recommendations, but I was wondering what your experiences
 have been.

 Regards,

 Jay
 Demarest, NJ

 --
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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread MikeC


PBH=94 cm, SH=83.5 cm at point of sit bones on B17 slammed all the way
back on seat post on my Sam Hill.

I like to use the method of putting the heels of your bare feet on the
pedals and setting seat height when your leg is fully extended at 6:00
position. For me, this works out to PBH- 10-11 cm and it automatically
takes into account any changes is seat fore/aft and seat angle.

-Mike

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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread happyriding

pbh: 91.5
saddle height: currently 83cm

I tend to move my saddle height around between 83cm-84cm depending on
how my knees are feeling.  Last year, I was recovering from a broken
leg, and I had to lower it a bit to 83cm.

How many of you use this formula?

Not me.  I wasn't aware of it.  My difference is 8.5-9.5 cm.


 Do you
 adjust it if you place the saddle all the way back on its rails?
 (Relateddon't laugh...where does one measure the top of the
 saddle...the area where you sit, the area right over the seat post?

If you think about it, ramming your saddle as far back as it will go
is the same as having a bike with a slacker/shallower/lower-number-
numerically seat tube angle with the saddle centered on the rails.  So
I suggest you measure from the center of the BB to the place where you
sit on the saddle--not along the seat tube.  The idea is to set the
reach for your legs, so the location of the seat tube is irrelevant.

Be careful adjusting your saddle height.  The recommendation is to do
it in small increments. If you feel pain in the back of your knee,
which can feel like you pulled a muscle in the back of your leg, the
saddle is too high.  Alternately, if you feel pain or tendonitis in
the front of your knee, the saddle is too low.

An ad hock rule is usually just an average.  Whether the average works
for you or not, you'll have to see.  If you are just starting to
cycle, then you have to start somewhere.  Then pay attention to how
your knees feel and adjust from there.

As Tim McNamara pointed out, what I've heard termed as 'ankling' plays
a role as well.  Do you naturally pedal with your toes pointed down,
i.e. with your heel higher then your toes, or with your feet parallel
to the ground?  I don't think there is a correct way--just different
natural tendencies.  Obviously, if you point your toes down, your
saddle will be higher than your twin's saddle if he pedals with his
feet flat.

If you were interested in achieving maximum power output, you could go
to a professional fitter, and they could hook you up to a Compu-
Trainer and then measure power output with various positions, saddle
heights, and fore-aft cleat adjustments.


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[RBW] Re: RBW Saddle Height question

2010-04-20 Thread happyriding

On Apr 20, 10:09 am, RM b...@san.rr.com wrote:
 My PBH: 87cm, SH: 76cm. 11cm difference

 My saddle height was established 10 years ago during two training camps and 
 bike fits at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine with Dr Andy Pruitt and 
 has been spot on for my comfort ever since. There is no black magic to 
 Rivendell's fit formula, it's about right in the center of what works for 
 most people's bio-geometry.


I wonder if you could give some more details.  I almost went to get
fit by Dr. Andy Pruitt many years ago.  Did you have aches and pains
that went away after the fit?  Does he still do fittings?

Thanks.

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