Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/22/2017 06:40 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
Yeah, I recall trying to get my 19 mm racing tires to 120 psi back in 
the day. And I was young and strong.


The other problem was that, because it has no check valve, if you were 
not careful, the plunger would kick back and, if the pressure was high 
enough and you were not quick enough, kick back with enough force to 
shoot the entire plunger mech entirely out of the tube into the 
distance. That happened to me at least once.





Happened to me once, too.  I was riding a tandem with my daughter, doing 
a century at the time.  (For DC area locals, it was on Accokeek Road 
near Berry, across the road from a nursery.)  POOM!! and the whole thing 
shot right out the back of the pump, out of my hand and across the road.


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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Patrick Moore]

Yeah, I recall trying to get my 19 mm racing tires to 120 psi back in the
day. And I was young and strong.

The other problem was that, because it has no check valve, if you were not
careful, the plunger would kick back and, if the pressure was high enough
and you were not quick enough, kick back with enough force to shoot the
entire plunger mech entirely out of the tube into the distance. That
happened to me at least once.

But for getting F Freds to 25 or 30 psi max, no prob except for gunky
valves.

BTW, I've read Jobst sneering at wimps who found the Impero too hard to
use. His analysis of the problem: you lack upper body strength.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> On 01/22/2017 06:13 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> Actually, the Impero, besides ultimate coolness, is not so impractical
>> after all with my fattish and lowish pressure F Freds.
>>
>
> The Silca Impero was designed in a day when 70 psi was really high
> pressure.  It's got a large bore and moves a lot of air with each stroke;
> that makes it easy to get a tire up to a certain pressure fast, but as
> pressure increases enormous strength is required.   You can almost use the
> bulging of the veins in your forehead and neck as a pressure gauge.
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/22/2017 06:13 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
Actually, the Impero, besides ultimate coolness, is not so impractical 
after all with my fattish and lowish pressure F Freds. 


The Silca Impero was designed in a day when 70 psi was really high 
pressure.  It's got a large bore and moves a lot of air with each 
stroke; that makes it easy to get a tire up to a certain pressure fast, 
but as pressure increases enormous strength is required.   You can 
almost use the bulging of the veins in your forehead and neck as a 
pressure gauge.



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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Patrick Moore]

Meant to add: I rather expect that swapping out either rd or bes will
suffice, at least for my purposes. Either way, I'd get more precision. Eg,
I expect that with Simplex Retrofs, I'd get more control of the DA 740N;
or, with another Microshift, the Silvers would work outstandingly.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Jon BALER  wrote:

> Microshift makes a bar end shifter that is dynasys compatible.  There are
> other options for thumb or downtube too.
>
> Dynasys uses more cable pull distance for each shift, so the shifter and
> derailleur are different.   As far as precision, it depends on how the
> friction is designed.  You can get more cable pull distance by increasing
> lever travel or diameter.  If a larger diameter, then precision would be
> about the same.  A small diameter with more travel gives more tolerance
> between shifts.
>
> You can also make a 9 speed friction shifter work with dynasys by
> dremeling it to get more travel.
>
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**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

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world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Patrick Moore]

Got it; thanks. I recall the Retrofrictions I used with 10 speed -- smaller
barrels mean more travel per unit length of cable pulled, which translates
to more precision at the back, all else equal.

As for rear derailleur travel, theDynasys rd must require more pull, all
else equal, than some of the older r derailleurs like the present DA 7400
series one I'm using. It be similar in that regard to other modern, 10
speed derailleurs like the Miche road one I used. Nice shifting!

Not quite 18 miles today, again mostly on muddy dirt. I'd replaced the
problematical 16 and 17 t cogs that, of all the 10, were the ones on which
the chain didn't sit securely -- ghost shifting, IOW.

Today's ride was mostly in the 63" ad 67" gears, with some faster sections
in the 70" -- 19, 18, and 17 t respectively. I also tried the 75"/16 t just
to compare with the previous ride.

The 16 is now fine; the 19 and 18 remain as before -- fine. But the 17,
while not quite as incorrigible, is still problematical. I could get it to
seat securely, but doing so requires great care, and even when optimally
centered, the chain still grumbles at every 2 crank revolutions, and the
shift to the 16 is also problematical. So: similar to before: hard to shift
from 18 to 17, and from 17 to 16. Different: I can now get the chain to
stay in place securely and smoothly on the 16; with difficulty securely but
not properly smooth on the 17.

I'll replace the 17 with another one -- fortunately, 17s are among the most
common in my box. If several more swaps don't work, I may have to replace
the DA with something more practical, if far, far less stylish.

I wonder if Simplex Retrofrictions will fit onto Silver BES bodies?

(Yes, using old DA f and r derailleurs, and using a Silca Impero as the
frame pump, are blatant and unapologetic concessions to a roadie style that
I have very little right to. Actually, the Impero, besides ultimate
coolness, is not so impractical after all with my fattish and lowish
pressure F Freds. The only problem is that sealant tends to muck up the
valves, meaning that you have to work hard to overcome the gunk during your
first 5 lbs or so.)

But all the other 9 cogs seem to work fine.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Jon BALER  wrote:

> Microshift makes a bar end shifter that is dynasys compatible.  There are
> other options for thumb or downtube too.
>
> Dynasys uses more cable pull distance for each shift, so the shifter and
> derailleur are different.   As far as precision, it depends on how the
> friction is designed.  You can get more cable pull distance by increasing
> lever travel or diameter.  If a larger diameter, then precision would be
> about the same.  A small diameter with more travel gives more tolerance
> between shifts.
>
> You can also make a 9 speed friction shifter work with dynasys by
> dremeling it to get more travel.
>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Jon BALER]

Microshift makes a bar end shifter that is dynasys compatible.  There are other 
options for thumb or downtube too.

Dynasys uses more cable pull distance for each shift, so the shifter and 
derailleur are different.   As far as precision, it depends on how the friction 
is designed.  You can get more cable pull distance by increasing lever travel 
or diameter.  If a larger diameter, then precision would be about the same.  A 
small diameter with more travel gives more tolerance between shifts.

You can also make a 9 speed friction shifter work with dynasys by dremeling it 
to get more travel.

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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Patrick Moore]

Oh, perhaps it is. Can someone elucidate and, if it is the RD, explain the
difference? I don't understand what Jon means by "longer cable pull."

FWIW, I'm using a Dura Ace 7401-2 road RD which works fine, but doesn't
shift as well as:

1. Circa 2010-2011 LX rd; only this one was reverse pull, which I dislike;

2. Microshift road rd -- absolutely the best rd I've used; unfortunately,
this one caught a stick and shattered, literally.

Both 1 and 2 above with the same Silver bes.

Come to think of it, I expect that the reason 1 and 2 shifted so well was
that they moved less per angle of lever, and thus were more precise. I
daresay that's why the Dynasys is better.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> So that's a difference not in the shifter, but in the rear derailleur,
> right?
>
>
>
> On 01/22/2017 12:47 PM, Jon BALER wrote:
>
>> Assuming you had a road shifter, it would require more precision.  But
>> Shimano mountain 10 speed/dynasys has longer cable pull and therefore
>> requires less precision.  I have it on two bikes, and works great.
>>
>>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Steve Palincsar]

So that's a difference not in the shifter, but in the rear derailleur, 
right?



On 01/22/2017 12:47 PM, Jon BALER wrote:

Assuming you had a road shifter, it would require more precision.  But Shimano 
mountain 10 speed/dynasys has longer cable pull and therefore requires less 
precision.  I have it on two bikes, and works great.



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Re: [RBW] Friction shifting 10 cogs; Road BB7 disc brakes with Yokuzuna

[Patrick Moore]

One the contrary, 10 versus 9 versus etc. will require more precisions *ceteris
paribus, *but agree that smaller barrels (I take it that more lever travel
is what you mean by "longer cable pull") are more precise. Still, the
Silvers are quite good. As I said, I only really notice the greater level
of precision with 10; 9 compared to 8, very little.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Jon BALER  wrote:

> Assuming you had a road shifter, it would require more precision.  But
> Shimano mountain 10 speed/dynasys has longer cable pull and therefore
> requires less precision.  I have it on two bikes, and works great.
>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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