Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

Ha, funny how those little differences present themselves!  But that makes 
sense to me, the former that is...  Since those "boots" would be used for 
hiking, as well as winter croquet, I will plan on building them around a 
felt insole and just enjoy the added warmth while cycling, even if it isn't 
quite noticeable...  Thanks for all of your insights, it is much 
appreciated!

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Mat, I held off on adding felt underfoot and was surprised that I didn’t need 
it cycling, whereas I did for hiking. Ground contact vs. pedal/air contact 
underfoot perhaps? Me being weird? Doubtless the latter. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

Ah ha!  Thanks for the winter "boot" tip!  My wife and I have been talking 
about shoe making (
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/villagevideo/shoemaking-instructional-video)
 and 
making a last while my foot is donning thick thick socks, and perhaps a 
felt insole, could be the ticket.

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Mat, for winter, down to -20˚F, I oversize my shoes by +2 or 3 and wear boiled 
wool socks (multiple pair, as needed, also sized up a bit). This will get a bit 
trickier as I put in the leather insole which takes up room, but the essentials 
to any winter system are: circulation, insulation, breathability, wind 
blocking. Most people botch the circulation because they add too much 
insulation without enough room to allow for it.

For a shoe, I use Xeros Coalton: 
https://xeroshoes.com/shop/shoes/casual-shoes/coalton/

Boiled wool socks: https://www.sweaterchalet.com/quality-woolens/wool-socks/

3-ply heavy that I use: 
https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear/dw-5115-adult-socks/#cc-m-product-11653655331

I then add in a ventile gator as needed (completely blocks the wind, keeps in 
warmth, still breathes). Works great with knickers/breeks.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

Hey, I have looked at Chacos, but I'm not keen on their bulk.  I will, 
however, put up with strapping a brick to my foot when it keeps my toes 
toasty through a Wisconsin winter!

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 1:39:54 PM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:
>
> Since, the beginning of summer I've been rocking Chaco sandals, no real 
> foot retention per se, but they grip real well on a wide/pinned platform 
> pedal . Most of the guys I know around here also ride Chacos. I prefer them 
> to other sandals,  many of which use Neoprene,  which can get sort of 
> squishy, nasty and smelly over time. The Chacos just have, the strap & are 
> pretty durable.
> For retention if I need it, I use SPDs.
> It's well into the 100s now so I want to let my dogs breathe. 

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[masmojo]

Since, the beginning of summer I've been rocking Chaco sandals, no real foot 
retention per se, but they grip real well on a wide/pinned platform pedal . 
Most of the guys I know around here also ride Chacos. I prefer them to other 
sandals,  many of which use Neoprene,  which can get sort of squishy, nasty and 
smelly over time. The Chacos just have, the strap & are pretty durable.
For retention if I need it, I use SPDs.
It's well into the 100s now so I want to let my dogs breathe. 

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Ginz]

I have a lightly used set of power grips I’d part with should anyone want to 
try them. 

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

I'm a size 10 and on moderately on the wide side of feet.  Nothing out of 
the ordinary, but that 8" platform felt rather nice underfoot, especially 
with thin sandals.  Thanks for the update Deacon, and keep us posted on how 
you like the urban pedals.  If the Grip Kings don't work out long term, 
I've pondered going back to forefoot'ish and using the Urban pedals.  

On the Grip Kings subject, I don't share the biggest gripe folks have with 
them, I think they grip just fine in the rain!  But I am experiencing 
pressure point from the force the back of the pedal exerts on my foot when 
pedaling hard.  Perhaps my minimalist sandals... or feet... need to be 
beefed up to distribute that pressure, hence the long term trial.

Perhaps this warrants a new thread, but, have any other folks done the 
forefoot, mid-foot, back to forefoot position?  If so, what were your 
observations about both techniques and why you currently use one over the 
other, especially with floppy footwear and hilly regions?

Thanks all,
Mat

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hey, Mat! The shift to a toeclip pedal is going well. Some of it you can read 
about here:
https://thegrid.ai/withabandon/pedals-and-shoes-for-feet-shaped-feet-and-fixed-gear-riding

I’ll likely do another post after I’ve bikepacked with the Rinko MKS Urban 
pedals. I love how they feel underfoot, give better clearence all round, and 
ride. My plan is on long LCG sections, which are the hardest on pedals/clips as 
the fixed gear pedals spin over the roughest trails bashing into rocks and 
roots that can’t be avoided with the weight of my full bike less engine, to 
remove the pedals because that takes ten seconds each and 20 seconds each to 
reattach them, so they don’t get bashed nearly as much.

As for thoughts on midfoot vs. forefoot pedaling, I’d say they are roughly 
equal in most ways (power/torque generation) given proper setup of stiff or 
soft shoes, grip, etc, but that my mid-foot pedaling has less capacity to spin 
fast than my forefoot pedaling capacity does. I suspect this is biomechanical 
because mid-foot pedaling eliminates the ankle as a pivot point, and the ankle 
pivot makes fast spinning noticably smoother (180+ rpm, or 28-30 mph in a 61” 
gear, 20mph in a 47” gear, based on speed zone radar readings. I don’t use a 
computer.)

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

Alas, the rearward pedal extender met it's end after less than 6 months.  
It stressed enough to break at the right angle bend.  I thought about 
making one that is stiffer out of a steel rod, but I've decided to try flat 
pedals for now as mid-foot pedaling and the extended toe clips have an 
issue of dragging on the ground when my cranks are vertical...

Deacon, how has your switch from mid-foot to forefoot pedaling been working 
out?


On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 2:37:18 PM UTC-5, Mat Grewe wrote:
>
> Hey, what has worked for me thus far with sylvan like pedal, midfoot, 
> floppy sandals, and simplicity is this.
>
> VO Half clips installed with 25mm bushings (easily variable) from a 
> hardware store to allow my foot to be forward enough on the pedal.  This 
> works great, but there isn't much support for the heal of my foot, sooo I 
> hacked off the "toe" part of an old pair of toe clips and installed them on 
> the back side of the pedal, where the reflector usually goes.  This gives 
> my foot a solid platform nearly eight inches long with some retention in 
> the toe area.  I am still needing to modify the backwards toe clip to have 
> some grip as my heal moves around on bumpy wet conditions slightly.  I'm 
> thinking of drilling some holes and punching them out from underneath as 
> faux pins, with an added addition of drillium.
>
> The downsides...  It is not a solid foot to the pedal retention like 
> clipless pedals or power grips, but it does have some (not sure how much 
> you are after).  It has a learning curve when mounting steep and rough 
> terrain and won't ever be as quick as a flat pedal.  The toe clips won't 
> fit big winter boots, but my guess, based on looking at some of your 
> pictures, it would fit your winter footwear.  You may have to bend the toe 
> clips a smidge though.
>
> The upside.  Simple, reliable, and darn near every bike shop has a pair of 
> old quill pedals laying around if the pedals ever get messed up on tour.  
> Also, I do find it pretty darn comfortable.
>
> Here is a picture to get the idea.
>
>
> 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Patrick Moore]

Come to think of it, my Rivats have metal reinforced leather soles; they
must be very old.

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 9:56 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Re: minimalist: these are pretty minimalist. I have a pair; very nice,
> though I no longer use clips and straps except on the Hon Solo. I'm tempted
> to go back, though.
>
> Patrick Moore, who still regrets giving away a pair of pristine, NOS
> Dettos circa 2001.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Deacon Patrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Follow-up: I received toeclips and straps from two generious listers.
>> Installed and rode this afternoon. Ended up doing 20 miles, including about
>> 7 single track. Wow.  Vs the HoldFast straps toeclips are easier in/out,
>> far more comfortable, and allow for greater power throughout the stroke. A
>> delicious ride! And that’s as yet without toe-flips. Grin. Now I just have
>> to get the minimalist cycling shoe thing sorted, and I’ll be all set!
>> Thanks for all your help!
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Patrick Moore]

Re: minimalist: these are pretty minimalist. I have a pair; very nice,
though I no longer use clips and straps except on the Hon Solo. I'm tempted
to go back, though.

Patrick Moore, who still regrets giving away a pair of pristine, NOS Dettos
circa 2001.





On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Follow-up: I received toeclips and straps from two generious listers.
> Installed and rode this afternoon. Ended up doing 20 miles, including about
> 7 single track. Wow.  Vs the HoldFast straps toeclips are easier in/out,
> far more comfortable, and allow for greater power throughout the stroke. A
> delicious ride! And that’s as yet without toe-flips. Grin. Now I just have
> to get the minimalist cycling shoe thing sorted, and I’ll be all set!
> Thanks for all your help!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Patrick Moore]

Patrick: For MKS on a budget, the "Esprit: model is a lot wider than the
GR-9s I used to use and supports the foot better than the Sylvans. (For
$35-odd, you don't get a correct spelling of "spirit" -- that's reserved
for the more expensive models.) I didn't care for the Urbans, and quickly
sold mine. The Esprits combine a nice, wide-ish body and serrated cage that
works very well for my aging, sole-thinning boat shoes.

On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Things about fixed gear pedal retention I’ve learned so far:
>
> — MKS bearings, even their cheapies, feel gd underfoot. Leaning toward
> eventually going with the Allways pedals.
> — I really like Hold Fast straps, though I’m unsure how well they’ll hold
> up to my riding. Already a wee bit of fraying from typical pedal brushing
> of dirt on side of trail. Fraying that leads to protective layering will be
> just fine. Time will tell.
> — I really dislike sandals and straps. Sandals on big platform pedals, no
> straps? Fantastic. Love them. Add straps? Foot is all over the place. Ugh.
> — Test rode (two tenths of a mile) wool socks (so the shoes don’t stink,
> hopefully ever) and Xero Shoes. Foot much more secure in pedal. Really like
> the feel. Will test further over longer rides. Sandals may be done. Sigh.
> — MKS Sylvan stream pedals way too narrow for me.
> — MKS Sylvan Touring pedals feel really good for 90% of my riding, but not
> beefy enough (at least with sandals only, maybe worth revisiting with shoes
> and socks. Hmmm), but the 10% they do not feel good (Stomping up steep
> stuff) means platforms may be the way to go.
> — Testing VP Vice Platforms (because they are semi-analogous to MKS
> Allways and I have them) with Xero Shoes, hopefully tomorrow.
>
> Progress is being made!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Deacon Patrick]

Things about fixed gear pedal retention I’ve learned so far:

— MKS bearings, even their cheapies, feel gd underfoot. Leaning toward 
eventually going with the Allways pedals.
— I really like Hold Fast straps, though I’m unsure how well they’ll hold up to 
my riding. Already a wee bit of fraying from typical pedal brushing of dirt on 
side of trail. Fraying that leads to protective layering will be just fine. 
Time will tell.
— I really dislike sandals and straps. Sandals on big platform pedals, no 
straps? Fantastic. Love them. Add straps? Foot is all over the place. Ugh.
— Test rode (two tenths of a mile) wool socks (so the shoes don’t stink, 
hopefully ever) and Xero Shoes. Foot much more secure in pedal. Really like the 
feel. Will test further over longer rides. Sandals may be done. Sigh.
— MKS Sylvan stream pedals way too narrow for me.
— MKS Sylvan Touring pedals feel really good for 90% of my riding, but not 
beefy enough (at least with sandals only, maybe worth revisiting with shoes and 
socks. Hmmm), but the 10% they do not feel good (Stomping up steep stuff) means 
platforms may be the way to go.
— Testing VP Vice Platforms (because they are semi-analogous to MKS Allways and 
I have them) with Xero Shoes, hopefully tomorrow.

Progress is being made!

With abandon,
Patrick   

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Deacon Patrick]

I had a fantastic conversation with the founders of Hold Fast. “We don’t have 
planned obsolence” was one stand out phrase, given in response to my 
description of the stupid riding I do and the LCG wear an upsidedown strap will 
encounter. “If you have a problem with it, let us know, whenever.” and “All our 
materials are mill spect. for us to withstand the rigors of urban fixed gear 
riding doing all kinds of stupid stuff nothing else stood up to.”

Sold. They are sewing me an all grey large as we speak. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Mat. I admire your solution.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

I do ride without socks and no issues with the clips chewing my toes.  I 
have Xero Z-Trails and the sandals do have some extra room at the toes, 
which might help.  I was thinking that I would have to put some twine (in 
true Riv fashion) around the toe area, but haven't felt the need to yet.  
Heck, if it did end up causing issues, I could make a net out of twine that 
completely fills in the gap between.  I'm not one to pull up while I pedal, 
the half clips more prevent the front of my foot from sliding forward and 
around.  So I could see the toe munching being more of an issue if you pull 
up when you pedal or if your toes extent beyond the ends of your sandals.

They are surprisingly hearty indeed!  We have a lot of 8-12% grades in 
southwest Wisconsin and I have had no issues sprinting up those.  I thought 
flex would be an issue, thinking the long bushing would act as a lever and 
over stress the bolt.  However, there isn't much that much torque in the 
front.  The rear I chose not to have any bushings as I do feel that bend 
ever so slightly when climbing out of the saddle.  But those steel toe 
clips are surprisingly resilient, which one learns when hack sawing them in 
half!

Oh, and another con, which might be the one that nixes this idea for you!  
The weight of the front toe clips means that it points down.  When walking 
the bike, the pedals have to be horizontal (not possible with fixed), 
otherwise they nick the ground.   You could try to counter weight it so it 
doesn't, but that just sounds tedious...

Hope you find a solid simple solution that works for you!

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Deacon Patrick]

Wow, Matt, what an amazing hack! That’s fantastic it works for you. It’s likely 
beyond my hack skills, but I have to ask: do you ride in sandals without socks? 
The toe clip seems it would be chewing on my toes. Not to mention I’d likely 
bend the front and back down on my first climb. Is it heartier than it looks?

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Mat Grewe]

Hey, what has worked for me thus far with sylvan like pedal, midfoot, 
floppy sandals, and simplicity is this.

VO Half clips installed with 25mm bushings (easily variable) from a 
hardware store to allow my foot to be forward enough on the pedal.  This 
works great, but there isn't much support for the heal of my foot, sooo I 
hacked off the "toe" part of an old pair of toe clips and installed them on 
the back side of the pedal, where the reflector usually goes.  This gives 
my foot a solid platform nearly eight inches long with some retention in 
the toe area.  I am still needing to modify the backwards toe clip to have 
some grip as my heal moves around on bumpy wet conditions slightly.  I'm 
thinking of drilling some holes and punching them out from underneath as 
faux pins, with an added addition of drillium.

The downsides...  It is not a solid foot to the pedal retention like 
clipless pedals or power grips, but it does have some (not sure how much 
you are after).  It has a learning curve when mounting steep and rough 
terrain and won't ever be as quick as a flat pedal.  The toe clips won't 
fit big winter boots, but my guess, based on looking at some of your 
pictures, it would fit your winter footwear.  You may have to bend the toe 
clips a smidge though.

The upside.  Simple, reliable, and darn near every bike shop has a pair of 
old quill pedals laying around if the pedals ever get messed up on tour.  
Also, I do find it pretty darn comfortable.

Here is a picture to get the idea.



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Re: [RBW] Pedal Retention Questions

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, lads!

Brian, I may take you up on your generious offer, though I’d like to learn more 
with the pedals I have and have coming first to have a better idea if yours are 
likely to work.

Howard, thank you for your generious offer. As I look at the Power Grips more 
closely, they seem to stick out (in the non-fixie version anyway) a bit, 
decreasing clearence — a big deal on trails. While I suspect the tension 
pushing down on my foot would be a good thing, about 9 months out of the year I 
often have to switch to my boiled wool and up-sized 14 shoes, so ease of 
adjustability is a must.

Patrick of the Moore, I might go that route if I could wal more than three 
steps in a shoe/sandle that thick without needing three days to recover. Grin. 
Even my full winter system of boiled wool and suede leather up sized shoes is 
thinner than that. It is amazing the difference a few mm of foam and/or a shoe 
that doesn’t move with the foot messes with proprioception. Grin. You’re 
assessment of the cone and bearings system is spot on as to why I want to give 
it a go and see how it works. 

My plan as of now (always subject to change) is to get Fast Grips and try them 
with my various pedals, learn, and see where I go. My ideal set up would be the 
Catalyst, but I seem to keep unsealing the bearings or have gotten two out of 
two less than correct pairs. No idea which. I have my third pair (replacement 
for the first pair) on Shadowfax and tested back and forth with forefoot 
postion (weight on forefoot only) vs shifting my foot back a wee bit to engage 
the heel also (weight on forefoot and heel, utilizing the arch as intended). I 
have just as much power either way. Forefoot only feels better spinning and 
makes spinning faster easier and thus smoother (ankle can micro-adjust with 
each rotation, I suspect). WIth the arch engaged, however, weight distribution 
is better and so it feels better when climbing. Oh! For the best of all 
possible worlds! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick 

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