Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Bill Lindsay]

In your original post you refer to your "current bike" with Billie bars. 
 Is that the Curtlo that you are selling over on the iBob list?   If so, 
for the benefit of the commenters, you said that Curtlo was designed to 
emulate a Rambouillet.  

I've got two comments:  First, I'm not crazy about your comment "I need my 
bars quite high cuz I'm old".  There are plenty of cyclists into their 80s 
who have the flexibility and general fitness to ride drop bars, and there 
are plenty of cyclists of every conceivable age that need their bars quite 
high in order to enjoy cycling.  If you in fact are old, and in fact need 
your bars high, the causal relationship between the two is not universal.  

Second, I think you'd experience a huge improvement with just a longer 
wheelbase.  Just going from a Rambouillet to a Leo Roadini would probably 
be a big improvement.  An A. Homer Hilsen may be even better.  The Hilsen 
is a road-oriented bike designed for uprights.  Try to arrange a test ride 
of a 54.5cm Hilsen.  It may be just your thing.  The go live on Thursday!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
> is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
> guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
> the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Steve]

Eddie, your initial post asking " how does shorter or longer stem effect 
steering?" has generated a a lot of interesting discussion about steering 
dynamics - but it seems that what you really want to get at is which size 
Roadini will work best for you with upright bars. 

You might start by taking a look at the geo for the 54 & 57 Roadinis and 
comparing  them both to the diagram of your current bike. (try the link to 
Bike Insights I've pasted below).   My suggestion is that the larger frame 
will better lend itself to a more upright riding position by virtue of its 
taller stack and shorter effective TT.   Both of the Roadinis have a longer 
wheelbase, slacker ST & HT angles, and more neutral trail than your current 
ride. I think you would discover that either of them  provide a more stable 
feeling front end than your current bike (which looks like it has maybe 
been pushed a bit beyond its design intent).  

Ultimately I agree with the suggestion that if you are looking for a bike 
that handles well with an upright position that you should consider a frame 
set intentionally designed for that style of riding.. 

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5bb29e327581960016665a31,5bb29e327581960016665a32,

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 8:58:13 AM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

> Doug, my guess is that headtube angle and trail on the Clem probably adds 
> to steadier steering. Riv does not seem to publish trail numbers but as I 
> understand it trail is key to steering characteristics.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:47:46 AM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I 
>> hope you find the right setup for your bike.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 8:41 AM eddietheflay  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two 
>>> years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands 
>>> are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright 
>>> that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less 
>>> steady.
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: 
 http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
 And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars 
 look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the 
 steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would 
 require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?
 Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
 https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6


 On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my 
> head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop 
> bars. 
> I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach 
> to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on 
>> a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to 
>> move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of 
>> with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up 
>> to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get 
>> from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". 
>> Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands 
>> forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to 
>> maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me 
>> all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of 
>> people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, 
>> and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand 
>> the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't 
>> relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that 
>> which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company 
>> as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become 
>> so 
>> passe', so to speak. In 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Richard Rose]

Precisely.Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 10, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the world, I ride them and it's fun. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 5:51:36 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , and this is a whole case of them ! First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars. The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much. The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's always the same guitar. This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie ! On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without needing the longest possible stem. *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. Joe Bernard On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like you find on all drop bar bikes?On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?



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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

Doug, my guess is that headtube angle and trail on the Clem probably adds 
to steadier steering. Riv does not seem to publish trail numbers but as I 
understand it trail is key to steering characteristics.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:47:46 AM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:

> I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I 
> hope you find the right setup for your bike.
> Doug
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 8:41 AM eddietheflay  wrote:
>
>> Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two 
>> years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands 
>> are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright 
>> that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less 
>> steady.
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: 
>>> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
>>> And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars 
>>> look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the 
>>> steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would 
>>> require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?
>>> Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my 
 head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. 
 I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach 
 to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.

 On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on 
> a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to 
> move 
> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with 
> a 
> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". 
> Bikes 
> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to 
> maximize 
> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me 
> all 
> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of 
> people 
> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, 
> and 
> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand 
> the 
> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't 
> relate 
> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that 
> which 
> one enjoys. 
>
> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company 
> as 
> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become 
> so 
> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be 
> something 
> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  
> in 
> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to 
> be 
> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never 
> enough, 
> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear 
> missing 
> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality 
> of 
> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>
>
>
> -- 
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>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Doug H.]

I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I
hope you find the right setup for your bike.
Doug

On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 8:41 AM eddietheflay  wrote:

> Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two
> years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands
> are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright
> that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less
> steady.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones:
>> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
>> And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars
>> look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the
>> steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would
>> require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?
>> Here are photos of my current twitchy setup:
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6
>>
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my
>>> head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars.
>>> I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach
>>> to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>>>
 More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a
 Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move
 forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a
 shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to
 the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride
 them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from
 Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes
 simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward
 of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize
 the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all
 the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis
 will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people
 ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I
 simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and
 we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the
 Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate
 to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which
 one enjoys.

 I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the
 last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as
 it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so
 passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to
 experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon
 for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes
 way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something
 more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for
 "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the
 inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in
 some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be
 fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The
 compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always
 taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough,
 and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't
 absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing
 aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of
 What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on.



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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two 
years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands 
are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright 
that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less 
steady.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: 
> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
> And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars look 
> cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the steering 
> would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would require a 
> smaller frame with shorter top tube?
> Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6
>
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my 
>> head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. 
>> I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach 
>> to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>>
>>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>>> one enjoys. 
>>>
>>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

-- 
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To view this discussion on the web visit 
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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these 
ones: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars look 
cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the steering 
would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would require a 
smaller frame with shorter top tube?
Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6


On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
> is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
> guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
> the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Doug H.]

Eddie,
When I first rode a Clem with Bosco bars it was so different from drop bars 
below the saddle level that steering seemed odd. It took a few rides to 
settle in to the upright position and having the bars above the saddle and 
coming back toward me, if that makes sense. Like you though I was having 
neck pain. I see many folks my age and older still riding drop bars and 
good on them. But, we are all different and thank goodness there are 
options! I guess my advice would be to give upright bars 100 miles or so to 
see if the steering becomes more palatable for you. 
Doug

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 8:26:34 AM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
> is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
> guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
> the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
the hoods on drop bars comfortable.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
> one enjoys. 
>
> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 
> 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it 
> became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Garth]

More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
one enjoys. 

I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 
20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it 
became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
"newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Joe Bernard]

Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that 
there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on 
Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like 
the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the 
world, I ride them and it's fun. 

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 5:51:36 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , 
> and this is a whole case of them ! 
>
> First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, 
> largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as 
> identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar 
> frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design 
> otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could 
> stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, 
> albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of 
> gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar 
> end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong 
> application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars. 
>
> The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond 
> of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for 
> comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still 
> be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and 
> best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, 
> I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design 
> philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much. 
>
> The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's 
> isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's 
> always the same guitar. 
>
> This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in 
> the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering 
> and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause 
> and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie ! 
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a 
>> couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a 
>> shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, 
>> then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?
>>
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either 
>>> my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has 
>>> been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with 
>>> relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little 
>>> bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I 
>>> have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on 
>>> that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots 
 of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference 
 in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call 
 tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos 
 without needing the longest possible stem. 

 *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road 
 bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for 
 Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 

 Joe Bernard 
 On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be 
> twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in 
> front like you find on all drop bar bikes?
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be 
>> best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without 
>> hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall 
>> adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to 
>> both 
>> the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems 
>> quite 
>> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really 
>> twitchy. 
>> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Garth]

Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , 
and this is a whole case of them ! 

First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, 
largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as 
identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar 
frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design 
otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could 
stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, 
albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of 
gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar 
end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong 
application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars. 

The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond 
of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for 
comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still 
be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and 
best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, 
I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design 
philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much. 

The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's 
isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's 
always the same guitar. 

This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in 
the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering 
and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause 
and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie ! 

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

> So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a 
> couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a 
> shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, 
> then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either 
>> my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has 
>> been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with 
>> relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little 
>> bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>> Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I 
>> have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on 
>> that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots 
>>> of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference 
>>> in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call 
>>> tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos 
>>> without needing the longest possible stem. 
>>>
>>> *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road 
>>> bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for 
>>> Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard 
>>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
 when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front 
 like 
 you find on all drop bar bikes?

 On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. 
> I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
> myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall 
> adjustable 
> stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
> portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make 
> things 
> more steady?

 -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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>>  
>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a 
couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a 
shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, 
then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my 
> Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a 
> long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively 
> straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But 
> other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I 
> have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on 
> that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 
>
>
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of 
>> upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in 
>> steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller 
>> effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without 
>> needing the longest possible stem. 
>>
>> *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road 
>> bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for 
>> Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 
>>
>> Joe Bernard 
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
>>> when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like 
>>> you find on all drop bar bikes?
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. 
 I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
 myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall 
 adjustable 
 stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
 portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
 comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
 Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things 
 more steady?
>>>
>>> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Richard Rose]

Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without needing the longest possible stem. *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. Joe Bernard On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like you find on all drop bar bikes?On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?



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