Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note
Just a note here: 504 is not a quoted note, but one that is constructed: Includes bibliographical references () On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dana Van Meter vanme...@ias.edu wrote: Thanks everyone. I did see rule 1.7.1 at some point in my RDA travels, and then forgot about it. I agree that it probably should apply in the case of the 504. I hate that cataloging in RDA feels like assembling a puzzle every single time. I wish that one didn’t have to jump to all over the place to find out how one thing should be done. ** ** Thanks again. ** ** -Dana ** ** ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Cronquist, Michelle J *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2013 3:21 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note ** ** You’d omit the brackets, according to LC-PSS 1.7.1, which says “Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used in quoted data,” and gives this example: ** ** 500 http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $aTypes of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin: pages 310-375. Not ... pages [310]-[375]. ** ** --- Michelle Cronquist North Caroliniana Cataloger Special Collections Technical Services CB#3926, Wilson Library University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill ** ** 919-962-6901 919-962-3594 (fax) ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Dana Van Meter *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2013 2:57 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note ** ** Hello. I’ve rooted around RDA several times trying to find an answer to this question and I can’t find one anywhere. Is there any direction anywhere in RDA or in the policy statements that tell you what to do when you are noting that bibliographical references are present and are noting the page numbers the references fall on, and where either the starting or ending (though usually the starting) page is not numbered in the book itself. In AACR2 we would put the correct page number inside square brackets. In most of the cases of this situation I’ve seen in the RDA copy that’s out there, I see people just citing the page number without the square brackets. I’ve only seen someone use square brackets once or twice. The AACR2 in me hates to put the page number without the square bracket when the page is not numbered in the book itself, which is generally the case with most of the books I catalog, as the heading Bibliography (or Bibliographical References, or whatever the case may be) usually appears a bit lower down on the page, and thus the page number is usually skipped on the starting page for the bibliographical references. I’ve looked at rule 7.16.1.3 and the LC-PCC PS for 7.16.1.3 and neither mentions what to do in a bibliographical references note when the starting (or ending) page is not numbered in the book itself. Is this mentioned anywhere in RDA, or in an LC-PCC PS? If it’s not, can someone from LC monitoring this list please add this to the LC-PCC PS for 7.16.1.3 so I don’t have to hem and haw every time I encounter this situation? Thanks very much for your help, Dana Van Meter Cataloging Librarian Historical Studies-Social Science Library Institute for Advanced Study Princeton, NJ 08540 vanme...@ias.edu -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note
I don't see how LC PCC PS 1.71. applies to this. The one example given simply gives the pages. The past practice would indicate that those page numbers are actually printed in the item. If not, then the pages not numbered would be put in brackets, so that if p. 310 were not printed the note would read (pages [310]-325. If both 310 and 325 were not printed, it would be (pages [310]-[325] (meaning that pages 311-324 are printed If none of the pages numbers are printed, but only implied, the extent of the bibliography would be (p. [310-325] On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Gene Fieg gf...@cst.edu wrote: Just a note here: 504 is not a quoted note, but one that is constructed: Includes bibliographical references () On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dana Van Meter vanme...@ias.edu wrote: Thanks everyone. I did see rule 1.7.1 at some point in my RDA travels, and then forgot about it. I agree that it probably should apply in the case of the 504. I hate that cataloging in RDA feels like assembling a puzzle every single time. I wish that one didn’t have to jump to all over the place to find out how one thing should be done. ** ** Thanks again. ** ** -Dana ** ** ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Cronquist, Michelle J *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2013 3:21 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note ** ** You’d omit the brackets, according to LC-PSS 1.7.1, which says “Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used in quoted data,” and gives this example: ** ** 500 http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $aTypes of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin: pages 310-375. Not ... pages [310]-[375]. ** ** --- Michelle Cronquist North Caroliniana Cataloger Special Collections Technical Services CB#3926, Wilson Library University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill ** ** 919-962-6901 919-962-3594 (fax) ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CARDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Dana Van Meter *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2013 2:57 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note ** ** Hello. I’ve rooted around RDA several times trying to find an answer to this question and I can’t find one anywhere. Is there any direction anywhere in RDA or in the policy statements that tell you what to do when you are noting that bibliographical references are present and are noting the page numbers the references fall on, and where either the starting or ending (though usually the starting) page is not numbered in the book itself. In AACR2 we would put the correct page number inside square brackets. In most of the cases of this situation I’ve seen in the RDA copy that’s out there, I see people just citing the page number without the square brackets. I’ve only seen someone use square brackets once or twice. The AACR2 in me hates to put the page number without the square bracket when the page is not numbered in the book itself, which is generally the case with most of the books I catalog, as the heading Bibliography (or Bibliographical References, or whatever the case may be) usually appears a bit lower down on the page, and thus the page number is usually skipped on the starting page for the bibliographical references. I’ve looked at rule 7.16.1.3 and the LC-PCC PS for 7.16.1.3 and neither mentions what to do in a bibliographical references note when the starting (or ending) page is not numbered in the book itself. Is this mentioned anywhere in RDA, or in an LC-PCC PS? If it’s not, can someone from LC monitoring this list please add this to the LC-PCC PS for 7.16.1.3 so I don’t have to hem and haw every time I encounter this situation? Thanks very much for your help, Dana Van Meter Cataloging Librarian Historical Studies-Social Science Library Institute for Advanced Study Princeton, NJ 08540 vanme...@ias.edu -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only. -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of
Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note
LC PCC PS 1.7.1 is a guideline for all notes, including a 504. As you say, 504 does not contain quoted data. Since the instruction for square brackets says they are to be used only in the case of quoted data, they should not be used for the case of unprinted page numbers. This is a departure from past practice. Hope this helps, Lizzy Elizabeth Schroeder Cataloging/Metadata Librarian Cardinal Stritch University Library Phone: 414-410-4258 E-mail: eeschroed...@stritch.edumailto:eeschroed...@stritch.edu From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 3:11 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note I don't see how LC PCC PS 1.71. applies to this. The one example given simply gives the pages. The past practice would indicate that those page numbers are actually printed in the item. If not, then the pages not numbered would be put in brackets, so that if p. 310 were not printed the note would read (pages [310]-325. If both 310 and 325 were not printed, it would be (pages [310]-[325] (meaning that pages 311-324 are printed If none of the pages numbers are printed, but only implied, the extent of the bibliography would be (p. [310-325] On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Gene Fieg gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu wrote: Just a note here: 504 is not a quoted note, but one that is constructed: Includes bibliographical references () On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dana Van Meter vanme...@ias.edumailto:vanme...@ias.edu wrote: Thanks everyone. I did see rule 1.7.1 at some point in my RDA travels, and then forgot about it. I agree that it probably should apply in the case of the 504. I hate that cataloging in RDA feels like assembling a puzzle every single time. I wish that one didn't have to jump to all over the place to find out how one thing should be done. Thanks again. -Dana From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Cronquist, Michelle J Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:21 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note You'd omit the brackets, according to LC-PSS 1.7.1, which says Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used in quoted data, and gives this example: 500http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $aTypes of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin: pages 310-375. Not ... pages [310]-[375]. --- Michelle Cronquist North Caroliniana Cataloger Special Collections Technical Services CB#3926, Wilson Library University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 919-962-6901tel:919-962-6901 919-962-3594tel:919-962-3594 (fax) From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Dana Van Meter Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 2:57 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Unnumbered page in a 504 note Hello. I've rooted around RDA several times trying to find an answer to this question and I can't find one anywhere. Is there any direction anywhere in RDA or in the policy statements that tell you what to do when you are noting that bibliographical references are present and are noting the page numbers the references fall on, and where either the starting or ending (though usually the starting) page is not numbered in the book itself. In AACR2 we would put the correct page number inside square brackets. In most of the cases of this situation I've seen in the RDA copy that's out there, I see people just citing the page number without the square brackets. I've only seen someone use square brackets once or twice. The AACR2 in me hates to put the page number without the square bracket when the page is not numbered in the book itself, which is generally the case with most of the books I catalog, as the heading Bibliography (or Bibliographical References, or whatever the case may be) usually appears a bit lower down on the page, and thus the page number is usually skipped on the starting page for the bibliographical references. I've looked at rule 7.16.1.3 and the LC-PCC PS for 7.16.1.3 and neither mentions what to do in a bibliographical references note when the starting (or ending) page is not numbered in the book itself. Is this mentioned anywhere in RDA, or in an LC-PCC PS? If it's not, can someone from LC monitoring this list please add this to the LC-PCC PS for 7.16.1.3 so I don't have to hem and haw every time I encounter this situation? Thanks very much for your help, Dana Van Meter Cataloging Librarian Historical Studies-Social Science Library Institute for Advanced Study Princeton, NJ 08540 vanme...@ias.edumailto:vanme...@ias.edu -- Gene Fieg
Re: [RDA-L] RDA CIP
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:50 PM, Jacqueline Byrd wrote: So, would we just ignore CIP information that would normally go in a transcription field? It's not unusual for me to find an edition and/or series statement only in the CIP. Is it best not to record information for these fields if it appears only in the CIP data, or should it be bracketed with maybe a note identifying the source? Yes, if information is only in the CIP block and not anywhere else in the book/resource, it would be ignored/treated as skeptical information not necessarily pertaining to the resource being described. If the publisher wanted the edition statement or series statement to appear on the book, they should have included it somewhere on their portion of the resource, rather than telling the CIP block creator (LC or other provider of cataloging-in-publication data blocks) that it would appear on the resource and then not mentioning it anywhere else on the resource. As for bracketing and making a note, it seems like that would be appropriate for edition and series statements where you have evidence that such statements are valid for the resource being described. For example, if subsequent volumes of a series mention your volume, but yours doesn't list a series statement, then adding a bracketed 490 or 500 might be helpful to justify an 8xx. On the other hand, if all books in the series (thinking of some children's series) mention Other books in this series followed by a list of titles, but none of them have a valid series statement outside of the CIP block, then I'd say there isn't a legitimate series, so none should be recorded/bracketed-in. I hope this helps, Bryan Baldus Senior Cataloger Quality Books Inc. The Best of America's Independent Presses 1-800-323-4241x402 bryan.bal...@quality-books.com
Re: [RDA-L] RDA CIP
So, would we just ignore CIP information that would normally go in a
transcription field?
In most cases, the CIP information is in the LC or LAC record which
was upgraded from a CIP one. We would not remove nor bracket that
information; it is in the item.
Of course one must be aware of earlier CIP printed in a later edition,
and of changes which might have happened during the publishing
process. Title page information would supersede older CIP
information, although the CIP information might also be included,
e.g., a changed title in 246; the item might have been listed as a
forthcoming book with the earlier title.
While 588 is usually used for sources outside the item, it could be
used to note CIP derived data. Better CIP data than [ not
identified], which would not be true if in the CIP.
Let's be pragmatic in supplying all available ISBD information.
Perhaps a publisher might feel it is not necessary to include
information twice, particularly the LCCN and ISBN.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
It's not unusual for me to find an edition and/or series statement
only in the CIP. Is it best not to record information for these
fields if it appears only in the CIP data, or should it be bracketed
with maybe a note identifying the source?
