Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Gary L Strawn]

Changing the topical Holmes heading to personal is indeed possible with the 
cataloger's toolkit. Instructions have been sent privately.

Gary L. Strawn, Authorities Librarian, etc.   Twitter: GaryLStrawn
Northwestern University Library, 1970 Campus Drive, Evanston IL 60208-2300
e-mail: mrsm...@northwestern.edu   voice: 847/491-2788   fax: 847/491-8306
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit.   BatchCat version: 2007.25.428

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 12:55 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

This is clearly confusing more than myself.   I appreciate the forwarding of 
the PCC list post.   And I’m following this continued conversation with 
interest.

When a fictitious character is already established in the subject authority 
file & the subject record is being cancelled & a “new one” reestablished in the 
name auth file it would seem to me that this is more a revision and less a new 
entry.

This practical reality of a number of authority fields in existing records that 
need to be changed, should be part of the decision-making process.

Perhaps one ought not to get bogged down in the practical, but really: it 
doubles the authority work (one cannot change 650s to 600s in Voyager, at least 
I have not come across a way to do this with Cataloger’s Toolkit) Sherlock 
Holmes is an excellent example that illuminates this change more obviously than 
some might.

This creates odd records such as (OCoLC)436030124 for which we have 6xxs for 
fictitious characters that are variously formatted.   Two fictitious characters 
along with Sherlock who has now gained mortal status:

650 _0‡a Russell, Mary (Fictitious character) ‡v Fiction.
60010‡a Holmes, Sherlock ‡v Fiction.
650_0‡a Holmes, Mycroft (Fictitious character) ‡v Fiction.

Presumably Russell and Mycroft will get 600 treatment eventually.  Whether 
they’ll be fictitious or not, remains to be seen.  Excellent series, by the way.

I look forward to seeing how the British Library proposal is received next 
month.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:29 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious 
character)

In a message to the PCC list dated September 4, 2013, Kate James of the LC 
Policy and Standards Division addressed this issue (with reference to the 
record for “Holmes, Sherlock”):

***
…

Regarding the issue of whether 9.19.1.2 f) should be applied, this is a source 
of ongoing debate because of the contradiction between the Core Element 
statement at 9.6 and the instruction in 9.19.1.1.   9.6 says, "Other 
designation associated with the person is a core element for a Christian saint 
or a spirit. For other persons, other designation associated with the person is 
a core element when needed to distinguish a person from another person with the 
same name."  However, 9.19.1.1 says to make the additions specified in 9.19.1.2 
regardless of whether they are needed to break a conflict.  The intent of the 
JSC in approving 6JSC/BL/3 and 6JSC/BL/4 last year was NOT to automatically add 
the additions specified in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g).  However, because 9.19.1.1 
was not changed, we are left with a contradiction. So for now, it is a valid 
interpretation to say that when creating a new NAR, you add a term of the type 
in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g) even in cases of non-conflict, and it is also a 
valid interpretation to say that when creating a new NAR, you only add a term 
of the type in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g) to break a conflict.  Since this is an 
existing NAR, you should not change the 1XX form unless a the need to break a 
conflict arises.

The British Library has done another JSC proposal to address this contradiction 
(6JSC/BL/13).  This new proposal will be discussed at the JSC meeting in DC in 
November 2013.  …

Kate James
Policy and Standards Division
Library of Congress

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 USAF AETC AUL/LTSC]

This is clearly confusing more than myself.   I appreciate the forwarding of 
the PCC list post.   And I’m following this continued conversation with 
interest.

When a fictitious character is already established in the subject authority 
file & the subject record is being cancelled & a “new one” reestablished in the 
name auth file it would seem to me that this is more a revision and less a new 
entry.

This practical reality of a number of authority fields in existing records that 
need to be changed, should be part of the decision-making process.

Perhaps one ought not to get bogged down in the practical, but really: it 
doubles the authority work (one cannot change 650s to 600s in Voyager, at least 
I have not come across a way to do this with Cataloger’s Toolkit) Sherlock 
Holmes is an excellent example that illuminates this change more obviously than 
some might.

This creates odd records such as (OCoLC)436030124 for which we have 6xxs for 
fictitious characters that are variously formatted.   Two fictitious characters 
along with Sherlock who has now gained mortal status:

650 _0‡a Russell, Mary (Fictitious character) ‡v Fiction.
60010‡a Holmes, Sherlock ‡v Fiction.
650_0‡a Holmes, Mycroft (Fictitious character) ‡v Fiction.

Presumably Russell and Mycroft will get 600 treatment eventually.  Whether 
they’ll be fictitious or not, remains to be seen.  Excellent series, by the way.

I look forward to seeing how the British Library proposal is received next 
month.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:29 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious 
character)

In a message to the PCC list dated September 4, 2013, Kate James of the LC 
Policy and Standards Division addressed this issue (with reference to the 
record for “Holmes, Sherlock”):

***
…

Regarding the issue of whether 9.19.1.2 f) should be applied, this is a source 
of ongoing debate because of the contradiction between the Core Element 
statement at 9.6 and the instruction in 9.19.1.1.   9.6 says, "Other 
designation associated with the person is a core element for a Christian saint 
or a spirit. For other persons, other designation associated with the person is 
a core element when needed to distinguish a person from another person with the 
same name."  However, 9.19.1.1 says to make the additions specified in 9.19.1.2 
regardless of whether they are needed to break a conflict.  The intent of the 
JSC in approving 6JSC/BL/3 and 6JSC/BL/4 last year was NOT to automatically add 
the additions specified in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g).  However, because 9.19.1.1 
was not changed, we are left with a contradiction. So for now, it is a valid 
interpretation to say that when creating a new NAR, you add a term of the type 
in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g) even in cases of non-conflict, and it is also a 
valid interpretation to say that when creating a new NAR, you only add a term 
of the type in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g) to break a conflict.  Since this is an 
existing NAR, you should not change the 1XX form unless a the need to break a 
conflict arises.

The British Library has done another JSC proposal to address this contradiction 
(6JSC/BL/13).  This new proposal will be discussed at the JSC meeting in DC in 
November 2013.  …

Kate James
Policy and Standards Division
Library of Congress

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Adam L. Schiff]

What is really missing from that LC record is this subject heading (which 
should probably have been created):


650 _0 Pawnee (Ind. : Imaginary place)

The only subject heading there is 630 00 Parks and recreation (Television 
program), and I don't think this books is ABOUT the television program.


Adam Schiff

**
* Adam L. Schiff * 
* Principal Cataloger*

* University of Washington Libraries *
* Box 352900 *
* Seattle, WA 98195-2900 *
* (206) 543-8409 * 
* (206) 685-8782 fax *
* asch...@u.washington.edu   * 
**


On Tue, 15 Oct 2013, Arakawa, Steven wrote:


Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:54:34 +
From: "Arakawa, Steven" 
Reply-To: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access

To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

When training, I like to use the LC cataloging for ISBN 9781401310646  (LCCN 
2011015148). The record was cataloged following AACR2, but it?s easy to see how 
a fictitious character AAP would be used in RDA. This is clearly not a 
pseudonym situation.
Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Jack Wu
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 9:12 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I must thank Mac and others for taking time to explain to me RDA's decision to 
treat ALL fictitious characters equally,  Nevertheless, I also have much less 
difficulty accepting the change from Clemens to Twain than accepting the 
authorship of Pooh, $c the Bear; or Snoopy, $c the Dog; or Kermit, $c the Frog. 
While one may just dress less formally, to have a bear, a dog, or a frog utter 
anything but growls, and groans, is hard to grasp.

Perhaps the relationship designator of $e author should here be changed to $e 
Dubious author, or perhaps $e attributed name, or $e Pretended author. Perhaps 
$c (fictional non-person), $c (fictional animal) can be added to $c (fictional 
character).

It is less likely the patron will fail to associate Milnes with Pooh, or 
Schultz with Snoopy, or know that Kermit is just a puppet from previous 
encounters with similar books, than to accept, or assume that Pooh, Snoopy, and 
Kermit actually wrote anything . Such pretense will not make catalogers, 
cataloging, or the cataloging code more intelligent or more intelligible than 
they are not.

Jack

Jack Wu
Franciscan University of Steubenville
j...@franciscan.edu<mailto:j...@franciscan.edu>





^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
(206) 543-8409
(206) 685-8782 fax
asch...@u.washington.edu
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
~~

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[J. McRee Elrod]

Jack Wu said:

>Perhaps the relationship designator of $e author should here be
>changed to $e Dubious author, or perhaps $e attributed name, or $e
>Pretended author.

Once upon a time, when we were more concerned with helping patrons
than theorizing, we inserted "[pseud.]" in the statment of
responsibility, now as forbidden as "[i.e. ...]", along with other
long term helpful practices.

Grumble.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Arakawa, Steven]

When training, I like to use the LC cataloging for ISBN 9781401310646  (LCCN 
2011015148). The record was cataloged following AACR2, but it’s easy to see how 
a fictitious character AAP would be used in RDA. This is clearly not a 
pseudonym situation.
Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Jack Wu
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 9:12 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I must thank Mac and others for taking time to explain to me RDA's decision to 
treat ALL fictitious characters equally,  Nevertheless, I also have much less 
difficulty accepting the change from Clemens to Twain than accepting the 
authorship of Pooh, $c the Bear; or Snoopy, $c the Dog; or Kermit, $c the Frog. 
While one may just dress less formally, to have a bear, a dog, or a frog utter 
anything but growls, and groans, is hard to grasp.

Perhaps the relationship designator of $e author should here be changed to $e 
Dubious author, or perhaps $e attributed name, or $e Pretended author. Perhaps 
$c (fictional non-person), $c (fictional animal) can be added to $c (fictional 
character).

 It is less likely the patron will fail to associate Milnes with Pooh, or 
Schultz with Snoopy, or know that Kermit is just a puppet from previous 
encounters with similar books, than to accept, or assume that Pooh, Snoopy, and 
Kermit actually wrote anything . Such pretense will not make catalogers, 
cataloging, or the cataloging code more intelligent or more intelligible than 
they are not.

Jack

Jack Wu
Franciscan University of Steubenville
j...@franciscan.edu<mailto:j...@franciscan.edu>

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Jack Wu]

I must thank Mac and others for taking time to explain to me RDA's decision to treat ALL fictitious characters equally,  Nevertheless, I also have much less difficulty accepting the change from Clemens to Twain than accepting the authorship of Pooh, $c the Bear; or Snoopy, $c the Dog; or Kermit, $c the Frog. While one may just dress less formally, to have a bear, a dog, or a frog utter anything but growls, and groans, is hard to grasp. 
 
Perhaps the relationship designator of $e author should here be changed to $e Dubious author, or perhaps $e attributed name, or $e Pretended author. Perhaps $c (fictional non-person), $c (fictional animal) can be added to $c (fictional character).
 
 It is less likely the patron will fail to associate Milnes with Pooh, or Schultz with Snoopy, or know that Kermit is just a puppet from previous encounters with similar books, than to accept, or assume that Pooh, Snoopy, and Kermit actually wrote anything . Such pretense will not make catalogers, cataloging, or the cataloging code more intelligent or more intelligible than they are not. 
 
Jack
 
Jack Wu
Franciscan University of Steubenville
j...@franciscan.edu
 
 
>>>Lynne LaBare, Senior Librarian/Cataloger"  10/14/2013 2:57 PM  
Mac,I am concerned that in all our discussions of fictitious characters as preferred access points, our many patrons will be confused (not to mention bemused) by the direction we are taking. That said, I like your idea of adding the Rowling cross reference to Biddle. That would neatly direct the patron who actually searched for works by J.K. Rowling to Biddle the Bard.  BTW the fictitious character is Geronimo Stilton. Thanks for your input!  I save most of your comments in my RDA folder--along with Bob Maxwell's and other frequent contributors who know far more about RDA than I ever will.Lynne J. LaBare Senior Librarian, CatalogerProvo Library at Academy Square 550 North University Avenue Provo, Utah 84601-1618801.852.7672801.852.6670 (fax) Email: lyn...@provo.lib.ut.us   On 10/14/2013 11:25 AM, J. McRee Elrod wrote:
Martin Kelleher wrote:


Thinking about it that way sadly doesn;t make it sound any less
ridiculous.
Entering Rowling under Biddle is no more ridiculous than entering
Clemens under Twain.  "Mark Twain" is a Mississippi River boaters'
call, no more a person than Geronimo Chilton.  

While I would favour including in the statement of responsibility
"[i.e. Samuel L. Clemens]", or "[i.e. J. K. Rowling]", RDA purists
would not approve.  We are dependent on authority cross references.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__




Scanned by for virus, malware and spam by SCM appliance 

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Kelleher, Martin]

They are each very different, however.

People think of Mark Twain as a real person, and he is - just with a different 
real name. Nobody thinks of Beedle as a real person. Well, OK, maybe some 
people do, but I don't think we should encourage that ;-)

Just to illustrate, here's the Wikipedia entries you get for Mark Twain:

"Mark Twain

For other uses, see Mark Twain (disambiguation).

Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910), better known by 
his pen name Mark Twain was an American author and humorist."

And here's the Wikipedia entry you get for Beedle the Bard:

"The Tales of Beedle the Bard"  
(Redirected from Beedle the Bard)

The Tales of Beedle the Bard is a book of children's stories by British author 
J. K. Rowling.

Author J. K. Rowling

The introduction (written by Rowling) to the publications released in December 
2008 mentions that the fictional character Beedle the Bard was born in 
Yorkshire, lived in the 15th century, and had "an exceptionally luxuriant beard"

Very different.


Martin

-Original Message-
From: J. McRee Elrod [mailto:m...@slc.bc.ca] 
Sent: 14 October 2013 18:25
To: Kelleher, Martin
Cc: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Martin Kelleher wrote:

>Thinking about it that way sadly doesn;t make it sound any less
>ridiculous.

Entering Rowling under Biddle is no more ridiculous than entering
Clemens under Twain.  "Mark Twain" is a Mississippi River boaters'
call, no more a person than Geronimo Chilton.  

While I would favour including in the statement of responsibility
"[i.e. Samuel L. Clemens]", or "[i.e. J. K. Rowling]", RDA purists
would not approve.  We are dependent on authority cross references.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Moore, Richard]

Adam

 

They should, and we ought to have relationship designators “Character created 
by” and “Creator of character” to express the relationship. And then persuade 
system designers to ensure that they make authorities available to the user, 
properly linked, so that these relationships can be navigated.

 

Regards

Richard

 

_

Richard Moore 

Authority Control Team Manager 

The British Library

  

Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806   

E-mail: richard.mo...@bl.uk 

 

 

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Adam Schiff
Sent: 15 October 2013 08:59
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

 

Such cross-references belong in authority records, but there are going to be 
times when you simply don’t know who the actual author is.  For example, Kermit 
the Frog’s books just say they are by him.  There is nothing to cross-reference 
unless one does extensive research to determine who the actual author is, if 
that is possible.  RDA does not allow you to add bracketed “[i.e.  ]” 
statements of responsibility.  It would permit you to add a note, however, 
something like “Actual author: ”.  But I would not like to start seeing 
records that have a 100 for the named person on the resource and a 700 for the 
actual author.  Those should be cross-refs in authority records I think.

 

Adam Schiff

University of Washington Libraries

 

From: Lynne LaBare, Senior Librarian/Cataloger <mailto:lyn...@provolibrary.com> 
 

Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 11:57 AM

To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA 

Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

 

Mac,

I am concerned that in all our discussions of fictitious characters as 
preferred access points, our many patrons will be confused (not to mention 
bemused) by the direction we are taking. That said, I like your idea of adding 
the Rowling cross reference to Biddle. That would neatly direct the patron who 
actually searched for works by J.K. Rowling to Biddle the Bard.  BTW the 
fictitious character is Geronimo Stilton. 

Thanks for your input!  I save most of your comments in my RDA folder--along 
with Bob Maxwell's and other frequent contributors who know far more about RDA 
than I ever will.



Lynne J. LaBare 
Senior Librarian, Cataloger
Provo Library at Academy Square 
550 North University Avenue Provo, Utah 84601-1618
801.852.7672
801.852.6670 (fax) 
Email: lyn...@provo.lib.ut.us



On 10/14/2013 11:25 AM, J. McRee Elrod wrote:

Martin Kelleher wrote:
 

Thinking about it that way sadly doesn;t make it sound any less
ridiculous.

Entering Rowling under Biddle is no more ridiculous than entering
Clemens under Twain.  "Mark Twain" is a Mississippi River boaters'
call, no more a person than Geronimo Chilton.  
 
While I would favour including in the statement of responsibility
"[i.e. Samuel L. Clemens]", or "[i.e. J. K. Rowling]", RDA purists
would not approve.  We are dependent on authority cross references.
 
 
   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

 


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 Think before you print
<>

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Adam Schiff]

Such cross-references belong in authority records, but there are going to be 
times when you simply don’t know who the actual author is.  For example, Kermit 
the Frog’s books just say they are by him.  There is nothing to cross-reference 
unless one does extensive research to determine who the actual author is, if 
that is possible.  RDA does not allow you to add bracketed “[i.e.  ]” 
statements of responsibility.  It would permit you to add a note, however, 
something like “Actual author: ”.  But I would not like to start seeing 
records that have a 100 for the named person on the resource and a 700 for the 
actual author.  Those should be cross-refs in authority records I think.

Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

From: Lynne LaBare, Senior Librarian/Cataloger 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 11:57 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA 
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Mac,

I am concerned that in all our discussions of fictitious characters as 
preferred access points, our many patrons will be confused (not to mention 
bemused) by the direction we are taking. That said, I like your idea of adding 
the Rowling cross reference to Biddle. That would neatly direct the patron who 
actually searched for works by J.K. Rowling to Biddle the Bard.  BTW the 
fictitious character is Geronimo Stilton. 

Thanks for your input!  I save most of your comments in my RDA folder--along 
with Bob Maxwell's and other frequent contributors who know far more about RDA 
than I ever will.



Lynne J. LaBare 
Senior Librarian, Cataloger
Provo Library at Academy Square 
550 North University Avenue Provo, Utah 84601-1618
801.852.7672
801.852.6670 (fax) 
Email: lyn...@provo.lib.ut.us

   

On 10/14/2013 11:25 AM, J. McRee Elrod wrote:

Martin Kelleher wrote:

Thinking about it that way sadly doesn;t make it sound any less
ridiculous.
Entering Rowling under Biddle is no more ridiculous than entering
Clemens under Twain.  "Mark Twain" is a Mississippi River boaters'
call, no more a person than Geronimo Chilton.  

While I would favour including in the statement of responsibility
"[i.e. Samuel L. Clemens]", or "[i.e. J. K. Rowling]", RDA purists
would not approve.  We are dependent on authority cross references.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

<>

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Lynne LaBare, Senior Librarian/Cataloger]

  
  
Mac,
  
I am concerned that in all our discussions
  of fictitious characters as preferred access points, our many
  patrons will be confused (not to mention bemused) by the
  direction we are taking. That said, I like your idea of adding
  the Rowling cross reference to Biddle. That would neatly
  direct the patron who actually searched for works by J.K.
  Rowling to Biddle the Bard.  BTW the
  fictitious character is Geronimo Stilton. 
  
  Thanks for your input!  I save most of your comments in my RDA
  folder--along with Bob Maxwell's and other frequent
  contributors who know far more about RDA than I ever will.
  
  
  
  Lynne






  J. LaBare 
  Senior
  Librarian,
  Cataloger
  Provo Library
  at Academy
  Square 
  550 North
  University
  Avenue Provo,
  Utah
  84601-1618
  801.852.7672
  801.852.6670
  (fax) 
  Email: lyn...@provo.lib.ut.us
  
    





  
  
  On 10/14/2013 11:25 AM, J. McRee Elrod wrote:


  Martin Kelleher wrote:


  
Thinking about it that way sadly doesn;t make it sound any less
ridiculous.

  
  
Entering Rowling under Biddle is no more ridiculous than entering
Clemens under Twain.  "Mark Twain" is a Mississippi River boaters'
call, no more a person than Geronimo Chilton.  

While I would favour including in the statement of responsibility
"[i.e. Samuel L. Clemens]", or "[i.e. J. K. Rowling]", RDA purists
would not approve.  We are dependent on authority cross references.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__



  

<>

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[J. McRee Elrod]

Martin Kelleher wrote:

>Thinking about it that way sadly doesn;t make it sound any less
>ridiculous.

Entering Rowling under Biddle is no more ridiculous than entering
Clemens under Twain.  "Mark Twain" is a Mississippi River boaters'
call, no more a person than Geronimo Chilton.  

While I would favour including in the statement of responsibility
"[i.e. Samuel L. Clemens]", or "[i.e. J. K. Rowling]", RDA purists
would not approve.  We are dependent on authority cross references.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Lynne LaBare, Senior Librarian/Cataloger]

   
  Lynne J. LaBare 
  Senior Librarian, Cataloger
  Provo Library at Academy Square

  550 North University Avenue
  Provo, Utah 84601-1618
  801.852.7672
  801.852.6670 (fax) 
  Email: 
lyn...@provo.lib.ut.us

  
  
  
  
  
  n 10/14/2013 4:13 AM, Kelleher, Martin wrote:


  
  
  
  
Thinking
about it that way sadly doesn’t make it sound any less
ridiculous.
 
“Oh
yes, sir, we’ve got more JK Rowling, sir, but we’ve
catalogued it under Beedle the Bard. Yes, sir, we’re fully
aware it’s not by Beedle the Bard, really, in the same
everyone else does, and that that part of the title page is
fictitious, but because the book says it’s by Beedle the
Bard, we’re pretending on the catalogue it’s true”
 
“Really
sir, moronic and ridiculous are very strong terms! This is a
LIBRARY, sir! We have STANDARDS!!!”
 
*sigh*
 
Martin
Kelleher
Metadata
Manager
University
of Liverpool

 

  From: Resource Description and Access / Resource
  Description and Access
  [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of M.
  E.
  Sent: 11 October 2013 23:41
  To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
  Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c
  (Fictitious character)

 

  

  
 
  
  
Another way to think about it is to
  consider the "identity" as being responsible for the
  work, not the flesh-and-blook human being bearing that
  name (real or pseudonymous).
  
  

  -- 
  


  Mark K.
  Ehlert


  Minitex


  <http://www.minitex.umn.edu/>

  

  


  

<>

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Kelleher, Martin]

I think currently we’d more likely put in the genuine authors name in all 
items, and just have any pseudonyms / fictional attributions / whatever in the 
authority file. on the other hand, I notice someone put Kermit the Frog as 
an example. In a way, that makes a bit more sense I can imagine franchise 
characters being attributed to in such a way, and actually not having a 
consistent /main author which they relate directly to. and I guess here I’m 
probably reproducing an argument that’s already been had amongst those who can 
afford the time/money to go to the RL meetings where all this stuff was 
presumably decided.

Nah. Even though Amazon do 
it<http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_adv_b?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&__mk_en_GB=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&field-keywords=&field-author=kermit+the+frog&field-title=&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-subject=&emi=&field-dateop=&f>
 (probably inconsistently), I just don’t think it’s something people will 
want/search for in such a way, but maybe I’m wrong.

Martin

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Moore, Richard
Sent: 14 October 2013 11:22
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Martin

You could argue the same where pseudonyms are concerned. In fact this is a bit 
like a pseudonym, and the relationship ought to be brought out in the authority 
file, by means of a 500 reference using a relationship designator like 
“Character created by”, which doesn’t exist yet in RDA.

At least in the “standard edition” “Tales of Beedle the Bard” says it’s by J.K. 
Rowling, on the preferred source…

Regards
Richard

_
Richard Moore
Authority Control Team Manager
The British Library

Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806
E-mail: richard.mo...@bl.uk<mailto:richard.mo...@bl.uk>

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Kelleher, Martin
Sent: 14 October 2013 11:13
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Thinking about it that way sadly doesn’t make it sound any less ridiculous.

“Oh yes, sir, we’ve got more JK Rowling, sir, but we’ve catalogued it under 
Beedle the Bard. Yes, sir, we’re fully aware it’s not by Beedle the Bard, 
really, in the same everyone else does, and that that part of the title page is 
fictitious, but because the book says it’s by Beedle the Bard, we’re pretending 
on the catalogue it’s true”

“Really sir, moronic and ridiculous are very strong terms! This is a LIBRARY, 
sir! We have STANDARDS!!!”

*sigh*

Martin Kelleher
Metadata Manager
University of Liverpool

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of M. E.
Sent: 11 October 2013 23:41
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)


Another way to think about it is to consider the "identity" as being 
responsible for the work, not the flesh-and-blook human being bearing that name 
(real or pseudonymous).

--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex
<http://www.minitex.umn.edu/>
**
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 Think before you print

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Moore, Richard]

Martin

 

You could argue the same where pseudonyms are concerned. In fact this is
a bit like a pseudonym, and the relationship ought to be brought out in
the authority file, by means of a 500 reference using a relationship
designator like "Character created by", which doesn't exist yet in RDA.

 

At least in the "standard edition" "Tales of Beedle the Bard" says it's
by J.K. Rowling, on the preferred source...

 

Regards

Richard

 

_

Richard Moore 

Authority Control Team Manager 

The British Library

  

Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806   

E-mail: richard.mo...@bl.uk   

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Kelleher, Martin
Sent: 14 October 2013 11:13
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

 

Thinking about it that way sadly doesn't make it sound any less
ridiculous.

 

"Oh yes, sir, we've got more JK Rowling, sir, but we've catalogued it
under Beedle the Bard. Yes, sir, we're fully aware it's not by Beedle
the Bard, really, in the same everyone else does, and that that part of
the title page is fictitious, but because the book says it's by Beedle
the Bard, we're pretending on the catalogue it's true"

 

"Really sir, moronic and ridiculous are very strong terms! This is a
LIBRARY, sir! We have STANDARDS!!!"

 

*sigh*

 

Martin Kelleher

Metadata Manager

University of Liverpool 

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of M. E.
Sent: 11 October 2013 23:41
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

 

 

Another way to think about it is to consider the "identity" as being
responsible for the work, not the flesh-and-blook human being bearing
that name (real or pseudonymous).


-- 

Mark K. Ehlert

Minitex

<http://www.minitex.umn.edu/>


**
Experience the British Library online at http://www.bl.uk/
 
The British Library’s latest Annual Report and Accounts : 
http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/annrep/index.html
 
Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. 
http://www.bl.uk/adoptabook
 
The Library's St Pancras site is WiFi - enabled
 
*
 
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally 
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intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the 
mailto:postmas...@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or 
copied without the sender's consent.
 
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author 
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Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
 
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 Think before you print

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Kelleher, Martin]

Thinking about it that way sadly doesn’t make it sound any less ridiculous.

“Oh yes, sir, we’ve got more JK Rowling, sir, but we’ve catalogued it under 
Beedle the Bard. Yes, sir, we’re fully aware it’s not by Beedle the Bard, 
really, in the same everyone else does, and that that part of the title page is 
fictitious, but because the book says it’s by Beedle the Bard, we’re pretending 
on the catalogue it’s true”

“Really sir, moronic and ridiculous are very strong terms! This is a LIBRARY, 
sir! We have STANDARDS!!!”

*sigh*

Martin Kelleher
Metadata Manager
University of Liverpool

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of M. E.
Sent: 11 October 2013 23:41
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)


Another way to think about it is to consider the "identity" as being 
responsible for the work, not the flesh-and-blook human being bearing that name 
(real or pseudonymous).

--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex
<http://www.minitex.umn.edu/>

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[M. E.]

Jack Wu  wrote:

>  I've always learned that a fictitious character is just that, a figment
> of our imagination. It is not capable of authorship (or as creator) unless
> it's a pseudonym of some real person. I can understand Holmes, Sherlock
> getting an access point, but cannot understand it as the Preferred access
> point.
>

Another way to think about it is to consider the "identity" as being
responsible for the work, not the flesh-and-blook human being bearing that
name (real or pseudonymous).

-- 
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Adam L. Schiff]

RDA takes at face value an assertion of creatorship.  So yes, it has 
changed from AACR2.  Any person can be a creator, and RDA asserts that 
persons include fictitious and legendary persons and non-humans:


9.0.  Persons include persons named in religious works, fictitious and 
legendary persons, and real or fictitious non-human entities.


RDA 19.2.1.3 has an example showing a fictitious character as creator:


Kermit, the Frog
Authorized access point representing the creator for: Before you leap : a 
frogs-eye view of lifes greatest lessons / by Kermit the Frog



On Fri, 11 Oct 2013, Jack Wu wrote:


Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:29:17 -0400
From: Jack Wu 
Reply-To: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access

To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Somehow in all these changes in establishment of name authorities for 
fictitious characters, I can't find anything that says the choice of main entry 
(or Preferred access point, or 100 field data) has changed. Although RDA 9.0 
says the scope of persons does include fictitious character; it also indicates 
if the fictitious entry's role is only as subject, the RDA instructions do not 
apply.

I've always learned that a fictitious character is just that, a figment 
of our imagination. It is not capable of authorship (or as creator) 
unless it's a pseudonym of some real person. I can understand Holmes, 
Sherlock getting an access point, but cannot understand it as the 
Preferred access point.


AS: AACR2 did not permit entry or the creation of name headings for these 
entities.  RDA does and doesn't require the cataloger to have to know if a 
particular person is fictitious or not.  Readers might not know either if 
a book written by someone named Jessica Fletcher is real or not.


Some RDA examples of works created by or contributed to by fictitious 
persons:


OCLC #837144081

100 1_ Fletcher, Jessica, $e author.
245 10 Close-up on murder : $b a novel / $c by Jessica Fletcher & Donald 
Bain.


OCLC #828418251

100 1_ Holmes, Sherlock, $e author.
245 14 The autobiography of Sherlock Holmes / $c by Sherlock Holmes ; 
edited by Don Libey, S.H.S.L.


OCLC #2013036659

100 1_ Adler, Irene $c (Fictitious character), $e author.
240 10 Trio della Dama Nera. $l English
245 14 The dark lady / $c by Irene Adler ; illustrated by Bruno Iacopo.

OCLC #664373969

245 00 Kermit unpigged $h [sound recording].
511 0_ Performed by Kermit the Frog with various artists.
700 0_ Kermit, $c the Frog.

OCLC #39875214

245 00 Dear Socks, dear Buddy : $b kids' letters to the first pets / $c 
[compiled, with a foreword, by] Hillary Rodham Clinton.

700 0_ Socks $c (Cat), $d 1989-2009, $e addressee.
700 0_ Buddy $c (Dog), $d 1997-2002, $e addressee.
700 1_ Clinton, Hillary Rodham, $e editor of compilation.

The LC-PCC Policy Statement for 9.0 makes it clear that even when a 
fictitious character is just needed as a subject, a name authority should 
be created.


Here are some examples from OCLC:

OCLC #788282024

245 04 The philosophy of Sherlock Holmes / ?c edited by Philip Tallon and 
David Baggett.

600 10 Doyle, Arthur Conan, ?d 1859-1930 ?x Characters ?x Sherlock Holmes.
600 10 Holmes, Sherlock.
650 _0 Detective and mystery stories, English ?x History and criticism.
650 _0 Philosophy in literature.
650 _0 Private investigators in literature.

OCLC #39812968

100 1_ Hammond, Diane Coplin.
245 10 Keiko's story : $b the real-life tale of the world's most famous 
killer whale / $c by Diane Coplin Hammond ; illustrated by Nyna 
Somerville.

600 00 Keiko, $d approximately 1976-2003.

OCLC #39875214

245 00 Dear Socks, dear Buddy : $b kids' letters to the first pets / $c
[compiled, with a foreword, by] Hillary Rodham Clinton.
600 00 Socks $c (Cat), $d 1989-2009 $v Humor.
600 00 Buddy $c (Dog), $d 1997-2002 $v Humor.


Here is the LC-PCC Policy Statement 9.0 on this matter:

Fictitious Entities and Real Non-Human Entities

LC practice/PCC practice: Apply this chapter to fictitious entities and 
real non-human entities following the guidelines below:


No LCSH Authority Record Exists

Create a name authority record for the entity following RDA instructions 
and NACO guidelines, whether needed as a creator, contributor, etc., under 
RDA, or needed only for subject access. Do not create a subject proposal 
for LCSH.


LCSH Authority Record Exists

If needed as a creator, contributor, etc., under RDA, create a new name 
authority record and notify the Policy & Standards Division 
(pol...@loc.gov) to cancel the existing subject authority record.
Optionally, a new name authority record may be created for such an entity 
if needed only for subject access. If a name authority record is created, 
notify the Policy & Standards Division (pol...@loc.gov) to cancel the 
existing subject authority record.
Future activity: A project to transition all fictitious

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[J. McRee Elrod]

Jack Wu said:

>I've always learned that a fictitious character is just that, a figment of =
>our imagination. It is not capable of authorship (or as creator) unless =
>it's a pseudonym of some real person.
 
We should describe things as they present themselves.  It the title
page says it was written by Geronimo Chilton, that should be the main
entry and basis of Cutter, as opposed to scattering them about under
title Cutters.  If we know the real identify of the person writing
under the name of a fictitious character, that name should be a cross
reference in the authority record of the bibliographic identity of the
fictitious character.

I don't see all that much distinction between Mark Twain and Geronimo
Chilton.  Both are on the title page as author.  We stopped entering
under Clemens decades ago.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Jack Wu]

Somehow in all these changes in establishment of name authorities for 
fictitious characters, I can't find anything that says the choice of main entry 
(or Preferred access point, or 100 field data) has changed. Although RDA 9.0 
says the scope of persons does include fictitious character; it also indicates 
if the fictitious entry's role is only as subject, the RDA instructions do not 
apply.
 
I've always learned that a fictitious character is just that, a figment of our 
imagination. It is not capable of authorship (or as creator) unless it's a 
pseudonym of some real person. I can understand Holmes, Sherlock getting an 
access point, but cannot understand it as the Preferred access point. 
 
100 field of Hums of Pooh, still under Milne, not Pooh; 100 field of Dr. 
Snoopy's advice to pet owners. still under Schultz, not Snoopy. Are these all 
to change? If that happens will Schultz and Milne go to the secondary 700?
The autobiography of Sherlock Holmes (OCLC#828418251) has Holmes in 100, and 
600; Watson in 650. Am I just behind with the changes?
 
Jack
 
Jack Wu
Franciscan University of Steubenville
j...@franciscan.edu

>>> Adam Schiff  10/11/2013 1:39 PM >>>
Yes that is true, at least for all newly established characters.  LC will 
(slowly, I imagine) undertake a project to convert their LCSH headings for 
ficititious characters to name authorities.  NACO libraries will establish 
them as well as needed and report existing LCSH terms for cancellation.

Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

-Original Message- 
From: Gray-Williams, Donna
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 7:57 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I can't use RDA yet, so I wasn't paying initial attention to this 
discussion.  I understood that a fictitious character as author would now be 
in a 100 field, but now it sounds like all fictitious characters are to be 
treated like real people and placed in the 600 field as well.  Is that the 
case? 


Scanned by for virus, malware and spam by SCM appliance

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[J. McRee Elrod]

Donna Gray-Williams asked:

>I understood that a fictitious character as author would now be in a
>100 field, but now it sounds like all fictitious characters are to be
>treated like real people and placed in the 600 field as well.

That's what we are doing, with $c(Fictitious character) always added.

the exceptions noted in earlier discussion, and adding the $c only to
break a conflict, create inconsistency, as do those 130 (Motion
picture) on some video records.

We used to say if a person breathed, 600, if not 650.  We now say if a
personal name, fictitious or real, human or animal, 600.  KISS


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Adam Schiff]

Yes that is true, at least for all newly established characters.  LC will 
(slowly, I imagine) undertake a project to convert their LCSH headings for 
ficititious characters to name authorities.  NACO libraries will establish 
them as well as needed and report existing LCSH terms for cancellation.


Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

-Original Message- 
From: Gray-Williams, Donna

Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 7:57 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I can't use RDA yet, so I wasn't paying initial attention to this 
discussion.  I understood that a fictitious character as author would now be 
in a 100 field, but now it sounds like all fictitious characters are to be 
treated like real people and placed in the 600 field as well.  Is that the 
case? 

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Gray-Williams, Donna]

I can't use RDA yet, so I wasn't paying initial attention to this discussion.  
I understood that a fictitious character as author would now be in a 100 field, 
but now it sounds like all fictitious characters are to be treated like real 
people and placed in the 600 field as well.  Is that the case?

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Moore, Richard]

Pat

I agree, we don't want them to look like real people, which is why we proposed 
the addition of "Fictitious character" as a core element last year. The same 
applies to access points for real non-human entities. This is why 9.19.1.2 is 
how it is. It's important to the functional objective "Identify" in RDA 8.2, 
and the user task "Contextualize" in FRAD 6, that users are able to distinguish 
access points that are for real persons, and for human persons, from access 
points that are not.

As has been said, this will all be discussed by JSC next month.

Regards
Richard

_
Richard Moore 
Authority Control Team Manager 
The British Library

Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806
E-mail: richard.mo...@bl.uk
 
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Sent: 08 October 2013 20:51
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Surely we include "fictitious character" for these names? Do we really want 
them to look like real people?
Pat

Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Head, Law Cataloging and Serials
D’Angelo Law Library
University of Chicago
773-702-9620
p...@uchicago.edu


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 2:37 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

This access point for Wiggin, Ender was first established by BYU *without* a 
qualifier, following LC's instructions only to add qualifier to these access 
point if there was a conflict. Somebody at BL took it upon themselves to add 
the qualifier (without the appropriate subfield coding, as you note). I do not 
think it was appropriate to change this access point, since there was no 
conflict at the time it was established and there is no new conflict now. 
(Subsequently somebody at Washington corrected the subfield coding).

The access point for Wiggin, Peter was first established by BYU *with* a 
qualifier (correctly coded) because there *was* a conflict with another Peter 
Wiggin.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568 

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but ‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious 
character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently? 

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & they 
have a number of Card's titles. 

I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as yet.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center 
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135  

  


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Experience the British Library online at http://www.bl.uk/
 
The British Library’s latest Annual Report and Accounts : 
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Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. 
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 Think before you print

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Moore, Richard]

Pat

I agree, we don't want them to look like real people, which is why we proposed 
the addition of "Fictitious character" as a core element last year. The same 
applies to access points for real non-human entities. This is why 9.19.1.2 is 
how it is. It's important to the functional objective "Identify" in RDA 8.2, 
and the user task "Contextualize" in FRAD 6, that users are able to distinguish 
access points that are for real persons, and for human persons, from access 
points that are not.

As has been said, this will all be discussed by JSC next month.

Regards
Richard

_
Richard Moore 
Authority Control Team Manager 
The British Library

Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806
E-mail: richard.mo...@bl.uk
 
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Sent: 08 October 2013 20:51
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

Surely we include "fictitious character" for these names? Do we really want 
them to look like real people?
Pat

Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Head, Law Cataloging and Serials
D’Angelo Law Library
University of Chicago
773-702-9620
p...@uchicago.edu


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 2:37 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

This access point for Wiggin, Ender was first established by BYU *without* a 
qualifier, following LC's instructions only to add qualifier to these access 
point if there was a conflict. Somebody at BL took it upon themselves to add 
the qualifier (without the appropriate subfield coding, as you note). I do not 
think it was appropriate to change this access point, since there was no 
conflict at the time it was established and there is no new conflict now. 
(Subsequently somebody at Washington corrected the subfield coding).

The access point for Wiggin, Peter was first established by BYU *with* a 
qualifier (correctly coded) because there *was* a conflict with another Peter 
Wiggin.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568 

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but ‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious 
character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently? 

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & they 
have a number of Card's titles. 

I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as yet.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center 
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135  

  

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 Think before you print

Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[M. E.]

Robert Maxwell  wrote:

>  In a message to the PCC list dated September 4, 2013, Kate James of the
> LC Policy and Standards Division addressed this issue (with reference to
> the record for “Holmes, Sherlock”):
>

Thanks for the reminder, Bob.  Looking through my inbox, I held on to and
highlighted Kate's original message, but don't remember having read it.
I'm also one who expects these sorts of details--temporary though they
are--to be posted somewhere on the NACO site if not in the LC-PCC PS.

-- 
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Robert Maxwell]

In a message to the PCC list dated September 4, 2013, Kate James of the LC 
Policy and Standards Division addressed this issue (with reference to the 
record for "Holmes, Sherlock"):

***
...

Regarding the issue of whether 9.19.1.2 f) should be applied, this is a source 
of ongoing debate because of the contradiction between the Core Element 
statement at 9.6 and the instruction in 9.19.1.1.   9.6 says, "Other 
designation associated with the person is a core element for a Christian saint 
or a spirit. For other persons, other designation associated with the person is 
a core element when needed to distinguish a person from another person with the 
same name."  However, 9.19.1.1 says to make the additions specified in 9.19.1.2 
regardless of whether they are needed to break a conflict.  The intent of the 
JSC in approving 6JSC/BL/3 and 6JSC/BL/4 last year was NOT to automatically add 
the additions specified in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g).  However, because 9.19.1.1 
was not changed, we are left with a contradiction. So for now, it is a valid 
interpretation to say that when creating a new NAR, you add a term of the type 
in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g) even in cases of non-conflict, and it is also a 
valid interpretation to say that when creating a new NAR, you only add a term 
of the type in 9.19.1.2 e), f), and g) to break a conflict.  Since this is an 
existing NAR, you should not change the 1XX form unless a the need to break a 
conflict arises.

The British Library has done another JSC proposal to address this contradiction 
(6JSC/BL/13).  This new proposal will be discussed at the JSC meeting in DC in 
November 2013.  ...

Kate James
Policy and Standards Division
Library of Congress

***

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of M. E.
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 2:49 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious 
character)

Robert Maxwell mailto:robert_maxw...@byu.edu>> wrote:
>
> No one should be "correcting" authorized access points that were correctly 
> established under current policy, which is to include the qualifier if there 
> is a conflict but otherwise not.

But the material of 9.6.1.7 falls under the 9.19.1.2 group of additions that 
are applied to AAPs regardless of conflict.  Unless you're referring to the 
core status laid out in the back half of the blue text below 9.6.

Did I miss something here?

--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex
<http://www.minitex.umn.edu/>

Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[M. E.]

Robert Maxwell  wrote:
>
> No one should be “correcting” authorized access points that were
correctly established under current policy, which is to include the
qualifier if there is a conflict but otherwise not.

But the material of 9.6.1.7 falls under the 9.19.1.2 group of additions
that are applied to AAPs regardless of conflict.  Unless you're referring
to the core status laid out in the back half of the blue text below 9.6.

Did I miss something here?

--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Robert Maxwell]

No one should be "correcting" authorized access points that were correctly 
established under current policy, which is to include the qualifier if there is 
a conflict but otherwise not.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of M. E.
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 2:27 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious 
character)

Bernhard, S. Michael mailto:mbernh...@cabq.gov>> wrote:
It seems to me, too, that the heading for Holmes should be Holmes, Sherlock |c 
(Fictitious character).  Do
others agree?  If I were still at a NACO library, I might go ahead and correct 
both headings (unless I've missed
something somewhere with regard to the Holmes heading).

Nothing missed.  The authority record was created before July of this year when 
"Fictitous character" monikers and such were sanctioned for use in RDA.  No 
one's gotten around to updating the 100 and 368 fields yet.  (The 040 $d DLC, 
it seems, refers to the merging of the old subject heading record to 
<http://lccn.loc.gov/no2013039964>.)

--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex
<http://www.minitex.umn.edu/>

Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[M. E.]

Bernhard, S. Michael  wrote:

> It seems to me, too, that the heading for Holmes should be Holmes,
> Sherlock |c (Fictitious character).  Do
> others agree?  If I were still at a NACO library, I might go ahead and
> correct both headings (unless I've missed
> something somewhere with regard to the Holmes heading).
>

Nothing missed.  The authority record was created before July of this year
when "Fictitous character" monikers and such were sanctioned for use in
RDA.  No one's gotten around to updating the 100 and 368 fields yet.  (The
040 $d DLC, it seems, refers to the merging of the old subject heading
record to .)

-- 
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Patricia Sayre-McCoy]

Surely we include "fictitious character" for these names? Do we really want 
them to look like real people?
Pat

Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Head, Law Cataloging and Serials
D’Angelo Law Library
University of Chicago
773-702-9620
p...@uchicago.edu


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 2:37 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

This access point for Wiggin, Ender was first established by BYU *without* a 
qualifier, following LC's instructions only to add qualifier to these access 
point if there was a conflict. Somebody at BL took it upon themselves to add 
the qualifier (without the appropriate subfield coding, as you note). I do not 
think it was appropriate to change this access point, since there was no 
conflict at the time it was established and there is no new conflict now. 
(Subsequently somebody at Washington corrected the subfield coding).

The access point for Wiggin, Peter was first established by BYU *with* a 
qualifier (correctly coded) because there *was* a conflict with another Peter 
Wiggin.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568 

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but ‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious 
character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently? 

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & they 
have a number of Card's titles. 

I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as yet.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center 
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135  

  

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Robert Maxwell]

This access point for Wiggin, Ender was first established by BYU *without* a 
qualifier, following LC's instructions only to add qualifier to these access 
point if there was a conflict. Somebody at BL took it upon themselves to add 
the qualifier (without the appropriate subfield coding, as you note). I do not 
think it was appropriate to change this access point, since there was no 
conflict at the time it was established and there is no new conflict now. 
(Subsequently somebody at Washington corrected the subfield coding).

The access point for Wiggin, Peter was first established by BYU *with* a 
qualifier (correctly coded) because there *was* a conflict with another Peter 
Wiggin.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568 

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but ‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious 
character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently? 

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & they 
have a number of Card's titles. 

I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as yet.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center 
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135  

  

Re: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Bernhard, S. Michael]

I would agree with Adam that the 100 field should be corrected.  Since the 400 
field has
the |c, I would take its absence in the 100 to be simply a typo or somebody's 
oversight.

 100 1_ |a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character) 
  --- 
 400 1_ |a Wiggin, Andrew |c (Fictitious character)

It seems to me, too, that the heading for Holmes should be Holmes, Sherlock |c 
(Fictitious character).  Do 
others agree?  If I were still at a NACO library, I might go ahead and correct 
both headings (unless I've missed
something somewhere with regard to the Holmes heading).


Michael Bernhard
Cataloger, Library Materials Support Services 
Albuquerque/Bernalillo County Library System
501 Copper Avenue NW
Albuquerque, NM  87102
Tel:  (505) 768-5119
Email: mbernh...@cabq.gov
http://www.cabq.gov/library


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 11:39 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious 
character)

Thanks.  I thought that must be the case but needed the validation.

As Michelle Cronquist noted, I'm seeing a mix of records with the |c variously
applied or not.

I'm still not at all comfortable with the reissued name authority record for
Holmes, Sherlock. But that's probably just my inexperience with fiction
cataloging.  I enjoy reading it, I just don't get the opportunity to catalog
it much.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135 
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Adam Schiff
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:24 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

The first one is simply incorrect and should be fixed.  The other
designation element (Fictitious character) should be coded in $c of the
personal name.

Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

-Original Message-
From: FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 7:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm
finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but
‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently?

[RDA-L] Thanks RE: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 USAF AETC AUL/LTSC]

smime.p7m
Description: S/MIME encrypted message

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Adam Schiff]

The first one is simply incorrect and should be fixed.  The other 
designation element (Fictitious character) should be coded in $c of the 
personal name.


Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

-Original Message- 
From: FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 USAF AETC AUL/LTSC

Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 7:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm 
finding:

‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but
‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently?

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & 
they have a number of Card's titles.


I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as 
yet.


//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135

Re: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[Cronquist, Michelle J]

I think the heading for Ender Wiggin should have $c before (Fictitious 
character) and it was just left out accidentally.  I did a search on the name 
file for "Fictitious character" and found several others with the same problem. 
 Establishing fictitious characters in the name file rather than the subject 
file is a new practice that was just announced a couple of months ago, so that 
may account for some of the inconsistency.

Michelle

---
Michelle Cronquist
North Caroliniana Cataloger
Special Collections Technical Services
CB#3926, Wilson Library
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

919-962-6901
919-962-3594 (fax)

-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 
USAF AETC AUL/LTSC
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 10:07 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but ‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious 
character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently? 

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & they 
have a number of Card's titles. 

I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as yet.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center 
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135  

  

[RDA-L] RDA name authorities |c (Fictitious character)

[FOGLER, PATRICIA A GS-11 USAF AETC AUL/LTSC]

I'm working through today's name authority changes & wondering why I'm finding:
‡a Wiggin, Ender (Fictitious character)  but
‡a Wiggin, Peter ‡c (Fictitious character)

Is this simply two different agencies interpreting the rules differently? 

We don't catalog a lot of fiction here so I've not much experience with 
fictitious characters.  I do edit our base library records occasionally & they 
have a number of Card's titles. 

I'd send this to LChelp4rda but I am guessing they are not back at work as yet.

//SIGNED//
Patricia Fogler
Chief, Cataloging Section  (AUL/LTSC)
Muir S. Fairchild Research Information Center 
DSN 493-2135   Comm (334) 953-2135