[RE-wrenches] Generator bonding discussion

[Allan Sindelar]

The problem of the bonded chassis in most generators has been with us for
years, and there is no real solution. With most cheap (and ubiquitous)
portables, the AC neutral is internally bonded to the chassis and can't be
easily undone.  When I wrote the HP generator article I attempted to address
this issue without getting too technical. I ran this specific issue by John
Wiles for his advice, and the final wording reflected his position that the
AC ground loop - that is, maintaining the neutral-ground bond in both the
generator and the inverter system and accepting that the ground conductor
would carry a portion of any current otherwise being carried on the neutral
- was the best of the options. 

 

. The final wording as submitted to HP was: "Quality generators
allow the neutral conductor to either connect to the generator chassis (for
prime power application) or remain separate from it. Portable generators are
seldom properly grounded, so manufacturers ground the neutral output
conductor to the chassis. When connected into a grounded power system,
however, this presents a safety hazard, as the neutral is now bonded to the
ground at two places-one in the power system AC and one in the generator-and
the safety ground wire becomes current-carrying. Some units also include AC
ground-fault protection, which is incompatible with connection to a grounded
power system.  There is no simple, Code-compliant solution to this. The
safest noncompliant approach is to bundle an insulated green ground
conductor with the power conductors between the generator and the main
ground buss, to both ground the chassis and minimize shock potential."

 

Inherent in this is that that grounding conductor between gennie and ground
buss be bundled in conduit and boxes, rather than being left bare or
exposed, as would otherwise be OK with any grounding conductor.

 

 

Allan Sindelar

al...@positiveenergysolar.com

NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer

EE98J Journeyman Electrician

Positive Energy, Inc.

3201 Calle Marie

Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507

505 424-1112

www.PositiveEnergySolar.com  

 

Larry,
Sounds like there are two neutral ground bonds: one at the generator and one
at the house.  This causes part of the neutral current to flow on the ground
- a guaranteed way to trip the GFI.  This is the catch 22 of connecting a
portable generator, or one with an outlet, to a house system.  The house
panel has to have a neutral ground bond.  The generator also has to have a
neutral ground bond (Although the small Honda and Yamaha inverter generators
don't. How do they get away with that? - No exposed metal to touch I guess.)
or the GFI won't work and ground faults won't trip the generator output
breakers.

Solutions (unfortunately none of these may be suitable and they all have
potential problems):

Permanently wire the generator.  On the generator, remove the neutral/ground
bond and remove all of the electric outlets.  In some locations, you aren't
allowed to permanently wire a generator unless it is U/L listed.  And most
(maybe all) portable generators aren't U/L listed.

Replace the GFI outlet with a non-GFI outlet (so it will be like the old
Homelight generator).  Part of the neutral current will flow on the ground
wire.  That's a code violation, but for 20 and 30-amp outlets the ground
wire has adequate ampacity so nothing is going to overheat.  In fact, even 6
AWG SO cord has a ground wire the same size as the conductors.

Use a 2-prong cheater.  This will prevent the GFI from tripping.  It also
prevents any ground fault past the cheater from returning to the generator.
It's probably best to locate the cheater at the load end of the cord; that
way if the cord is damaged the GFI will still trip.  If there is ground
fault past the cheater, there will be one or probably more than one
locations where there is shock hazard.  If you touch the generator frame,
it'll tingle; if the ground is wet, it might be severe.

Use a mobile-style inverter that will switch the neutral/ground bond.  Most
of these are not U/L for house wiring.  I think this is the best solution
but it doesn't cover the circumstance of a grid backup inverter connected to
a portable generator.

See. I don't have any good solutions.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2008 690.31

[Carl Adams]

Dave,

I'd be interested in seeing pictures of your work here.  We have
several ground mount systems upcoming.

Thanks
Carl


On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:51 PM, David Palumbo
 wrote:
> William,
>
>
>
> From 2008 Handbook (actual codebook is not at my desk at this time).
>
> IV. Wiring Methods
>
> 690.31 Methods Permitted
>
> (A)  Wiring Systems. All raceway and cable wiring Methods included in this
> Code and other wiring systems and fittings specifically intended and
> identified for use on photovoltaic arrays shall be permitted. Where wiring
> devices with integral enclosures are used, sufficient length of cable shall
> be provided to facilitate replacement.
>
> Where photovoltaic source and output circuits operating at maximum system
> voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in readily accessible
> locations, circuit conductors shall be installed in a raceway.
>
>
>
> Highlighted note in Handbook: Most PV modules do not have provisions for
> attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made “not readily
> accessible” by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.
>
>
>
> It goes on with a FPN on temperatures and then continues with sections (B)
> thru (F);  which someone with the CD could paste for us.
>
>
>
> I assumed you were interested primarily in (A) William. We are using a
> screening method on DPW TPM that works well for us. We are using an outdoor
> plastic lattice, white in color, that we buy at Lowes and custom cut for our
> specific needs. We use it to screen any MC cables that are within 8 feet of
> ground level. I could send anyone interested a picture if they e-mail and
> request. To bring our wiring down from the PV modules we enter the DPW
> gimbal thru a Hubbell ¾” 90 degree cord grip (DPW has a knock out for such)
> and then we exit the steel pipe mast directly into the back of a PVC j-box
> thru a 2-1/2” hole we make in the pipe, we weld a 6x6 plate onto the hole
> for the j-box and protect the wiring coming out of the pipe mast with a
> short piece of PVC that is bushed on both ends. After the j-box we are all
> SCHD 80 PVC before transitioning to schedule 40 under ground.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
> Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:14 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2008 690.31
>
>
>
> Friends:
>
> I have not received my 2008 NEC on CD.  Pending it's arrival, could one of
> you good folks please post 690.31 to the wrenches as a personal favor to me?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> William Miller
>
>
> Please note new e-mail address and domain:
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar
> Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
> email: will...@millersolar.com
> http://millersolar.com
> License No. C-10-773985
>
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[RE-wrenches] Solar Christmas Goodies

[Carl Adams]

Hello Wrenches,

Since year end projects are going to keep us crazy busy till year end,
I am breaking with tradition and getting started early on my Christmas
shopping.  I have a tradition in my family of giving an ornament to
each family member.  Usually something relevant to the years
experience for them.  I'd like to find some solar related Christmas
ornaments for the SunRock crew this year.  Any suggestions on where to
look would be appreciated.

Thanks and an early Merry Christmas to all.
Carl
SunRock Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[tump]

Generators are usually shipped w/ the neutral bonded to the frame. I agree ck & 
remove the bonding from the n. 
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-Original Message-
From: Mick Abraham 
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:15:57 
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Drake Chamberlin]

For a test, install a three prong to two prong adaptor on the 
attachment plug, and see if the problem persists.  The neutral to 
ground bond is likely made in the generator as well as in the 
electrical service. This will cause a current in the equipment 
ground, which will trip a GFCI.   It might be possible to undo the 
neutral to ground bond in the generator.


Drake

At 07:10 PM 11/10/2009, you wrote:

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked well.
Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
interface with the system?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain ___
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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
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[RE-wrenches] generator unbalance

[Dana]

We added a T-240 transformer to step down voltage, 240 to 120 VAC into an
older system with a SW4024 this summer, and had input lead balancing issues
till OB had us pull the neutral from the generator to the x-former. This
cleared up some of the issue but not all of it. We even swapped out the
transformer and installed an OB X240 transformer and the issue persisted
identically, with and without the neutral from the generator to the
transformer hooked up.

OB, Koehler and myself are still trying to figure out the reason for this
unbalance. We are getting 22 amps /11amps on the 230VAC input to the
x-former. Switching the input leads does not change the unbalance.

Any thoughts out there?

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:27 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

Allan,

Using a T-240 fed from the 30 amp twist lock, non GFI, outlet with  
240 volts and then taking the stepped down 120 volts into the Outback  
looks like it would solve the problem of having two neutral to ground  
bounds.
It is a little pricey for the extra T-240 needed but it means not  
altering the new generator and possibly voiding the warrantee.  It  
also leaves the 2-20 amp GFI receptacles on the generator in their  
proper working order for future use.

Thanks for the helpful fix

Larry

On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

> Larry,
> The single VFX3524 takes 19A plus loads from one leg, way  
> overloading that
> 120V leg. Your best bet would be to add a T240 or PSX240 to balance  
> both
> legs. Then use the 30A 240V receptacle on the Genereck. The twist-loc
> receptacle doesn't run through a GFI, so the tripping will go away.  
> Plus
> your VFX can overload and trip the 20A breaker when charging at the  
> full 19A
> and a surge load comes on. This would likely solve that.
>
> Contact me off-list if you'd like a pdf copy of the off-grid  
> gennies article
> in Home Power; it will help explain a bit about wiring with the !)$%&@
> bonded-chassis neutral and a few other issues.
>
>
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.PositiveEnergySolar.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of  
> Larry Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:11 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator
>
> Fellow Wrenches,
>
> On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
> installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
> They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked  
> well.
> Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
> generator.
> Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
> receptacle on the generator pops.
> There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
> this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
> Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
> interface with the system?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Allan Sindelar]

Larry,
One of my points in the HP gennie article is that you get what you pay for,
and cheap generators - in this case, both the Homelite and the Generac -
aren't always a good choice. The added cost of the T240 makes the great
price not so great. 

If the customer balks, offer them the article. If they still balk, turn down
the job - you didn't cause the problem.

If the Generac had a 120/120-240 selector switch, the T240 wouldn't be
necessary. The selector switch comes on some more expensive units, like some
Hondas and Subarus. Without it a T240 or equivalent is the only way to get
full available output from the unit.

I guarantee you'd void the warranty.

Good luck!

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.PositiveEnergySolar.com

Allan,
Using a T-240 fed from the 30 amp twist lock, non GFI, outlet with  
240 volts and then taking the stepped down 120 volts into the Outback  
looks like it would solve the problem of having two neutral to ground  
bonds.
It is a little pricey for the extra T-240 needed but it means not  
altering the new generator and possibly voiding the warrantee.  It  
also leaves the 2-20 amp GFI receptacles on the generator in their  
proper working order for future use.

Thanks for the helpful fix
Larry

On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Larry,
> The single VFX3524 takes 19A plus loads from one leg, way  
> overloading that
> 120V leg. Your best bet would be to add a T240 or PSX240 to balance  
> both
> legs. Then use the 30A 240V receptacle on the Genereck. The twist-loc
> receptacle doesn't run through a GFI, so the tripping will go away.  
> Plus
> your VFX can overload and trip the 20A breaker when charging at the  
> full 19A
> and a surge load comes on. This would likely solve that.
>
> Contact me off-list if you'd like a pdf copy of the off-grid  
> gennies article
> in Home Power; it will help explain a bit about wiring with the !)$%&@
> bonded-chassis neutral and a few other issues.
>
> Allan Sindelar
> 
> -Original Message-
>
> On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
> installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
> They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked  
> well.
> Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
> generator.
> Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
> receptacle on the generator pops.
> There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
> this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
> Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
> interface with the system?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain


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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Larry Brown]

Allan,

Using a T-240 fed from the 30 amp twist lock, non GFI, outlet with  
240 volts and then taking the stepped down 120 volts into the Outback  
looks like it would solve the problem of having two neutral to ground  
bounds.
It is a little pricey for the extra T-240 needed but it means not  
altering the new generator and possibly voiding the warrantee.  It  
also leaves the 2-20 amp GFI receptacles on the generator in their  
proper working order for future use.


Thanks for the helpful fix

Larry

On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Larry,
The single VFX3524 takes 19A plus loads from one leg, way  
overloading that
120V leg. Your best bet would be to add a T240 or PSX240 to balance  
both

legs. Then use the 30A 240V receptacle on the Genereck. The twist-loc
receptacle doesn't run through a GFI, so the tripping will go away.  
Plus
your VFX can overload and trip the 20A breaker when charging at the  
full 19A

and a surge load comes on. This would likely solve that.

Contact me off-list if you'd like a pdf copy of the off-grid  
gennies article

in Home Power; it will help explain a bit about wiring with the !)$%&@
bonded-chassis neutral and a few other issues.


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.PositiveEnergySolar.com


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of  
Larry Brown

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked  
well.

Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
interface with the system?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Kent Osterberg]

Mike,

If the neutral/ground bond is removed, any outlets on the generator
should also be removed so it can't be used as a portable power supply.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


Mick Abraham wrote:
As a check, Larry might disconnect the Generac machine
from the Outback system and everything else, then with machine not
running, check for continuity from the neutral (wide) slot on the GFI
receptacle and the metal frame of the generator.
  
If there is continuity, the neutral is bonded to ground at the
generator...and is probably also bonded to ground at the first
disconnect in the home. That would explain the GFI trip-out. 
  
I would then suggest to find and remove the bond from generator neutral
to chassis, especially if this machine is hard-wired into the Outback
system then there is a bond elsewhere so two bonds are not needed.
  
Jolliness,
  
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
  www.abrahamsolar.com
  
Voice: 970-731-4675
  
  
  On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Larry Brown
  
wrote:
  Dave,

The original setup was an 1800 watt Homelite generator with two non GFI
receptacles, no twist lock receptacle
The client had the generator from building their house
It was wired through a fused disconnect to the VFX3524
All worked fine
They tried the same set up with the new Generac 8000 watt inverter
They plugged into a 20 amp GFI receptacle on the generator and it kept
popping the GFI breaker
I did lower the Battery charger AC amps and the AC amps in but it
seemed to make no difference

Larry




On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:22 PM, David Palumbo wrote:


Larry,
  
Are you sure it is not a simple overload situation? Have you tried
reprogramming the VFX with a Mate to lower critical values (AC Amps In,
and
Battery charger AC amps)?
  
Seems strange a 8kW generator to have a 20A breaker protect a load like
a
generator (unless you were plugged into that outlet). How do you have
the
output wired?
  
Dave
  
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of Larry Brown
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator
  
Fellow Wrenches,
  
On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked well.
Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
interface with the system?
  
Thanks
Larry
  
Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Kent Osterberg]

Larry,

Sounds like there are two neutral ground bonds: one at the generator
and one at the house.  This causes part of the neutral current to flow
on the ground - a guaranteed way to trip the GFI.  This is the catch 22
of connecting a portable generator, or one with an outlet, to a house
system.  The house panel has to have a neutral ground bond.  The
generator also has to have a neutral ground bond (Although the small
Honda and Yamaha inverter generators don't. How do they get away with
that? - No exposed metal to touch I guess.) or the GFI won't work and
ground faults won't trip the generator output breakers.

Solutions (unfortunately none of these may be suitable and they all
have potential problems):

Permanently wire the generator.  On the generator, remove the
neutral/ground bond and remove all of the electric outlets.  In some
locations, you aren't allowed to permanently wire a generator unless it
is U/L listed.  And most (maybe all) portable generators aren't U/L
listed.

Replace the GFI outlet with a non-GFI outlet (so it will be like the
old Homelight generator).  Part of the neutral current will flow on the
ground wire.  That's a code violation, but for 20 and 30-amp outlets
the ground wire has adequate ampacity so nothing is going to overheat. 
In fact, even 6 AWG SO cord has a ground wire the same size as the
conductors.

Use a 2-prong cheater.  This will prevent the GFI from tripping.  It
also prevents any ground fault past the cheater from returning to the
generator.  It's probably best to locate the cheater at the load end of
the cord; that way if the cord is damaged the GFI will still trip.  If
there is ground fault past the cheater, there will be one or probably
more than one locations where there is shock hazard.  If you touch the
generator frame, it'll tingle; if the ground is wet, it might be severe.

Use a mobile-style inverter that will switch the neutral/ground bond. 
Most of these are not U/L for house wiring.  I think this is the best
solution but it doesn't cover the circumstance of a grid backup
inverter connected to a portable generator.

See. I don't have any good solutions.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


Larry Brown wrote:
Dave,
  
  
The original setup was an 1800 watt Homelite generator with two non GFI
receptacles, no twist lock receptacle
  
The client had the generator from building their house
  
It was wired through a fused disconnect to the VFX3524
  
All worked fine
  
They tried the same set up with the new Generac 8000 watt inverter
  
They plugged into a 20 amp GFI receptacle on the generator and it kept
popping the GFI breaker
  
I did lower the Battery charger AC amps and the AC amps in but it
seemed to make no difference
  
  
Larry
  
  
  
On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:22 PM, David Palumbo wrote:
  
  
  Larry,


Are you sure it is not a simple overload situation? Have you tried

reprogramming the VFX with a Mate to lower critical values (AC Amps In,
and

Battery charger AC amps)?


Seems strange a 8kW generator to have a 20A breaker protect a load like
a

generator (unless you were plugged into that outlet). How do you have
the

output wired?


Dave


-Original Message-

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Brown

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:11 PM

To: RE-wrenches

Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator


Fellow Wrenches,


On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we

installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.

They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked
well.

Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac

generator.

Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp

receptacle on the generator pops.

There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing

this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition

Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to

interface with the system?


Thanks

Larry


Larry Brown

Sun Mountain

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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Mick Abraham]

As a check, Larry might disconnect the Generac machine from the Outback
system and everything else, then with machine not running, check for
continuity from the neutral (wide) slot on the GFI receptacle and the metal
frame of the generator.

If there is continuity, the neutral is bonded to ground at the
generator...and is probably also bonded to ground at the first disconnect in
the home. That would explain the GFI trip-out.

I would then suggest to find and remove the bond from generator neutral to
chassis, especially if this machine is hard-wired into the Outback system
then there is a bond elsewhere so two bonds are not needed.

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Larry Brown wrote:

> Dave,
>
> The original setup was an 1800 watt Homelite generator with two non GFI
> receptacles, no twist lock receptacle
> The client had the generator from building their house
> It was wired through a fused disconnect to the VFX3524
> All worked fine
> They tried the same set up with the new Generac 8000 watt inverter
> They plugged into a 20 amp GFI receptacle on the generator and it kept
> popping the GFI breaker
> I did lower the Battery charger AC amps and the AC amps in but it seemed to
> make no difference
>
> Larry
>
>
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:22 PM, David Palumbo wrote:
>
>  Larry,
>>
>> Are you sure it is not a simple overload situation? Have you tried
>> reprogramming the VFX with a Mate to lower critical values (AC Amps In,
>> and
>> Battery charger AC amps)?
>>
>> Seems strange a 8kW generator to have a 20A breaker protect a load like a
>> generator (unless you were plugged into that outlet). How do you have the
>> output wired?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
>> Brown
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:11 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator
>>
>> Fellow Wrenches,
>>
>> On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
>> installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
>> They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked well.
>> Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
>> generator.
>> Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
>> receptacle on the generator pops.
>> There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
>> this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
>> Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
>> interface with the system?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Larry
>>
>> Larry Brown
>> Sun Mountain
>> ___
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>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
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>> wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Mark Dickson]

Had the exact same thing happen once after we replaced a circuit board in a
FX3524.  After some head scratching I went and checked over the AC
connections at the inverter, which my overly helpful client had wired and
found that he had switched the neutral and hot in legs.

Best regards,
 
Mark Dickson,
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T
Oasis Montana Inc.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David
Palumbo
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:22 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

Larry,

Are you sure it is not a simple overload situation? Have you tried
reprogramming the VFX with a Mate to lower critical values (AC Amps In, and
Battery charger AC amps)? 

Seems strange a 8kW generator to have a 20A breaker protect a load like a
generator (unless you were plugged into that outlet). How do you have the
output wired? 

Dave

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we  
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.   
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked well.
Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac  
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp  
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing  
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to  
interface with the system?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Larry Brown]

Dave,

The original setup was an 1800 watt Homelite generator with two non  
GFI receptacles, no twist lock receptacle

The client had the generator from building their house
It was wired through a fused disconnect to the VFX3524
All worked fine
They tried the same set up with the new Generac 8000 watt inverter
They plugged into a 20 amp GFI receptacle on the generator and it  
kept popping the GFI breaker
I did lower the Battery charger AC amps and the AC amps in but it  
seemed to make no difference


Larry


On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:22 PM, David Palumbo wrote:


Larry,

Are you sure it is not a simple overload situation? Have you tried
reprogramming the VFX with a Mate to lower critical values (AC Amps  
In, and

Battery charger AC amps)?

Seems strange a 8kW generator to have a 20A breaker protect a load  
like a
generator (unless you were plugged into that outlet). How do you  
have the

output wired?

Dave

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of  
Larry Brown

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked  
well.

Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
interface with the system?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aurora & Exeltech Inverters

[wind...@wind-sun.com]

I would add the new Exeltech grid tie inverter to that question. I see their ad 
in the latest HP magazine, but no info on their website about them, and no 
distributor seems to know much about them.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
  - Original Message - 
  From: William Miller 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:53 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora Inverters


  Friends:

  Does anyone here have any experience with the Aurora inverters?  I visited 
their booth in Anaheim and was impressed with some of the features:

  Made in Camarillo, CA, near the Solar World plant.
  Dual MPPT inputs
  90 to 500 VDC input window.
  Transformerless (or balanced, as we would say in broadcasting) inputs
  Nema 4 case.
  Up to 97% efficient

  I am particularly intrigued with the Transformerless input.  This, IMHO is a 
much safer scheme.  Prior to a ground fault, no polarity is referenced to 
ground, reducing shock hazard significantly.  Any ground fault only references 
one side of the circuit to the racking and metallic structures.

  I'd like to know more.

  William Miller


  Please note new e-mail address and domain:

  William Miller 
  Miller Solar
  Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607   
  email: will...@millersolar.com
  http://millersolar.com
  License No. C-10-773985




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[RE-wrenches] Aurora Inverters

[William Miller]

Friends:

Does anyone here have any experience with the Aurora inverters?  I visited 
their booth in Anaheim and was impressed with some of the features:


Made in Camarillo, CA, near the Solar World plant.
Dual MPPT inputs
90 to 500 VDC input window.
Transformerless (or balanced, as we would say in broadcasting) inputs
Nema 4 case.
Up to 97% efficient

I am particularly intrigued with the Transformerless input.  This, IMHO is 
a much safer scheme.  Prior to a ground fault, no polarity is referenced to 
ground, reducing shock hazard significantly.  Any ground fault only 
references one side of the circuit to the racking and metallic structures.


I'd like to know more.

William Miller


Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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