Re: [RE-wrenches] Possible genset configuration error...but how do I convince my client!

[William Miller]

Mick:

Do you have access to a dual trace oscilloscope?  That is how I check phase 
angle.


William


At 09:45 PM 4/7/2011, you wrote:

Hello, Mechanics~

I went to a distant "off grid" jobsite where my client has an 
inverter/charger system set up for 120/240 60 hz system architecture. 
While investigating some screwy charge behavior I clipped my "pretty good" 
Extech clamp meter around the various AC wires from the generator, with 
the meter set for frequency display.


The two hots looked good around 60 hz but the neutral was showing wacky 
frequency numbers much higher...and about double. The ground also showed 
similar wacky frequency numbers so I think there is a ground fault but my 
greater worry at present is the approximately double frequency which is 
showing up on the neutral.


I suspect that the two hots are not perfectly 180 degrees out of phase to 
each other, but how do I convince my client of that and how do we fix it?


The generator is...old...massive...noisy & intimidating of course...and 
the type with taps that can be set to choose the type of power delivery 
that one wants. I fear that it may not have taps for good ol' single phase 
with two opposing hots, however. My client thinks it's set up for 
something called "double delta" and showed me a diagram that implies this 
to yield "two hots and a neutral" ordinary single phase.


The voltage looks normal from each line to neutral and from line to line. 
It's just that puzzling frequency on the neutral that has me concerned. 
Charge performance actually cleaned up very well by the time I left the 
site but I fear that something is still amiss. Gosh! I didn't measure the 
amps on all lines but if the hots are not canceling each other out maybe 
the neutral is being required to carry more than just the imbalance 
current. Maybe I gotta go back and maybe some pointers or suggestions from 
the group would help me do a better job. Is there anything short of an 
oscilloscope that can help us figure this out?


Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
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[RE-wrenches] Possible genset configuration error...but how do I convince my client!

[Mick Abraham]

Hello, Mechanics~

I went to a distant "off grid" jobsite where my client has an
inverter/charger system set up for 120/240 60 hz system architecture. While
investigating some screwy charge behavior I clipped my "pretty good" Extech
clamp meter around the various AC wires from the generator, with the meter
set for frequency display.

The two hots looked good around 60 hz but the neutral was showing wacky
frequency numbers much higher...and about double. The ground also showed
similar wacky frequency numbers so I think there is a ground fault but my
greater worry at present is the approximately double frequency which is
showing up on the neutral.

I suspect that the two hots are not perfectly 180 degrees out of phase to
each other, but how do I convince my client of that and how do we fix it?

The generator is...old...massive...noisy & intimidating of course...and the
type with taps that can be set to choose the type of power delivery that one
wants. I fear that it may not have taps for good ol' single phase with two
opposing hots, however. My client thinks it's set up for something called
"double delta" and showed me a diagram that implies this to yield "two hots
and a neutral" ordinary single phase.

The voltage looks normal from each line to neutral and from line to line.
It's just that puzzling frequency on the neutral that has me concerned.
Charge performance actually cleaned up very well by the time I left the site
but I fear that something is still amiss. Gosh! I didn't measure the amps on
all lines but if the hots are not canceling each other out maybe the neutral
is being required to carry more than just the imbalance current. Maybe I
gotta go back and maybe some pointers or suggestions from the group would
help me do a better job. Is there anything short of an oscilloscope that can
help us figure this out?

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV to 208v 3-phase with high leg

[Darryl Thayer]

the usual 208 3 phase is Y and not have high leg.  sometimes you will measure 
up 
to 208 on the high leg of at Delta high leg to neutral.  If it is Delta 3 phase 
120-240 and a 200 about volt high leg, connect across the 240 volt legs, I e 
that is across each phase they should be 240 each leg to leg connect the 
neutral 
only if you have one in that phase.  both Fronius and SMA have nice drawings in 
their installation guidelines or at their training courses.  






From: Aladdin Solar 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 11:06:55 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV to 208v 3-phase with high leg

 
What is the best approach to interconnecting with a  208 volt 3-phase 
service having a high leg? Small to medium  sized PV systems.
 
Charlie Pickard
Aladdin  Solar
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[RE-wrenches] PV to 208v 3-phase with high leg

[Aladdin Solar]

What is the best approach to interconnecting with a 208 volt 3-phase service 
having a high leg? Small to medium sized PV systems.

Charlie Pickard
Aladdin Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[Kent Osterberg]

Daryl,

AEE has a corrugated
roof block that works pretty well. Penetrations are through the
ridges, where leaks are less likely, and they can be sealed with Butyl
tape. One draw back, same with the EJOT, is that the metal ridges will
rarely line up with support structure below. You'll need to install
extra bracing underneath for almost every bracket. If working over an
insulated attic, you won't be able to install very far down from the
ridge.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

  Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
have others dealt with this type of material?

Thanks for any information,
Daryl

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Penobscot Solar Design


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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[Mike Nelson]

I have used hanger bolts on this exact roof several times. Filled the holes
with copious amounts of a good polyurethene sealant (vulkem) before driving
the hanger bolt, then built up with sealant around the hanger bolt base.
Haven't had any leaks, always tried to stay on the ribs, above the water
line.

Mike Nelson
MD Electric & Solar
Gualala Ca.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:47 PM, R Ray Walters  wrote:

> Interesting that it seems the industry is moving back to L-feet and
> sealant?
> Always worked for many situations.
>
>  R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
>
>
>
>
>  On Apr 7, 2011, at 7:11 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote:
>
>
> Here's the VersaBracket option from S-5!:
>
> http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_71.cfm
>
>
> For a brighter energy future,
>
> Andrew Truitt
> Principal
> Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
>  <%28202%29%20486-7507>(202) 486-7507
>  http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713
>
>  <24 copy.jpg>
>
> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
> to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
>
> ~William McDonough
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, jay peltz  wrote:
>
>> Hi Daryl,
>>
>> I have drilled a small pilot hole, put plenty of sealant around it, then
>> lag through it with what ever foot you are using.
>>
>> I don't think the cost of flashing around each foot with a rubber boot and
>> 15 screws is any better but its sure more costly in time and money.
>>
>> jay peltz power
>>
>>
>> On Apr 7, 2011, at 2:28 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
>>
>> > Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
>> > galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
>> > has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
>> > barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
>> > have others dealt with this type of material?
>> >
>> > Thanks for any information,
>> > Daryl
>> >
>> > Daryl DeJoy
>> > NABCEP Certified PV installer
>> > Penobscot Solar Design
>> >
>> > mbers.re-wrenches.org
>>  >
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[R Ray Walters]

Interesting that it seems the industry is moving back to L-feet and sealant?
Always worked for many situations.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Apr 7, 2011, at 7:11 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote:

>  
> Here's the VersaBracket option from S-5!:
>  
> http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_71.cfm
>  
>  
> For a brighter energy future,
> 
> Andrew Truitt
> Principal
> Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
> (202) 486-7507
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713
> 
> <24 copy.jpg>
> 
> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to 
> fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor 
> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could 
> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
> 
> ~William McDonough
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, jay peltz  wrote:
> Hi Daryl,
> 
> I have drilled a small pilot hole, put plenty of sealant around it, then lag 
> through it with what ever foot you are using.
> 
> I don't think the cost of flashing around each foot with a rubber boot and 15 
> screws is any better but its sure more costly in time and money.
> 
> jay peltz power
> 
> 
> On Apr 7, 2011, at 2:28 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
> > galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
> > has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
> > barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
> > have others dealt with this type of material?
> >
> > Thanks for any information,
> > Daryl
> >
> > Daryl DeJoy
> > NABCEP Certified PV installer
> > Penobscot Solar Design
> >
> > mbers.re-wrenches.org
> >
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[North Texas Renewable Energy Inc]

Daryl, I haven't done it but have heard of using "U" bolts from below to 2X
rafters. Think 8 inch long muffler clamp with a metal flat drilled plate on
the top, the bottom coated with sealant & L foot held down by nuts on top.
Pullout strength is unlimited and a sturdy metal plate to attach to plus
it's watertight.
I have seen galv metal barns with only roofing nails holding the roof down.
Low pressure inside is not a problem where there aren't 4 walls so uplift is
not an issue. I'd also draw up a CYA liability release.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installer No.031310-57
TECL 27398
nt...@1scom.net
817.917.0527
www.ntrei.com



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of
penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing


Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
have others dealt with this type of material?

Thanks for any information,
Daryl

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Penobscot Solar Design


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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[Mick Abraham]

Daryl~ Take a look at the EJOT line of fasteners:

http://www.ejot.com/ejot.de/EJOT_Solarbefestiger_Bau_2009--2749,websiteLang__en.htm

These sort of look like a "hanger bolt" but they are machined to cram down
on a fat rubbery washer as they are tightened. EJOT is showing up in some of
the PV wholesaler inventories, and there are fastener companies with
inventory in the US.

Contact me off list if you have trouble finding a supplier via normal
channels, and I'll think of a source or two to which I can point you.

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Hi Daryl,
>
> I have drilled a small pilot hole, put plenty of sealant around it, then
> lag through it with what ever foot you are using.
>
> I don't think the cost of flashing around each foot with a rubber boot and
> 15 screws is any better but its sure more costly in time and money.
>
> jay peltz power
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2011, at 2:28 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
> > galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
> > has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
> > barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
> > have others dealt with this type of material?
> >
> > Thanks for any information,
> > Daryl
> >
> > Daryl DeJoy
> > NABCEP Certified PV installer
> > Penobscot Solar Design
> >
> > mbers.re-wrenches.org
> >
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[Andrew Truitt]

Here's the VersaBracket option from S-5!:

http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_71.cfm


For a brighter energy future,

Andrew Truitt
Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
(202) 486-7507
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713

[image: 24 copy.jpg]

"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough





On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Hi Daryl,
>
> I have drilled a small pilot hole, put plenty of sealant around it, then
> lag through it with what ever foot you are using.
>
> I don't think the cost of flashing around each foot with a rubber boot and
> 15 screws is any better but its sure more costly in time and money.
>
> jay peltz power
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2011, at 2:28 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
> > galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
> > has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
> > barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
> > have others dealt with this type of material?
> >
> > Thanks for any information,
> > Daryl
> >
> > Daryl DeJoy
> > NABCEP Certified PV installer
> > Penobscot Solar Design
> >
> > mbers.re-wrenches.org
>  >
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power One Aurora Inverters

[Darryl Thayer]

I have been involved with two installs,  They are working great, they have dual 
inputs and the broadest MPPT range of any inverter I have seen.  I have had no 
failure problems, and I have a friend that has experience with several and he 
reports no problems.  


They are ungrounded so you have to use PV wire exposed.  Your array disconnect 
has to open both DC lines per input, which means a four pole disconnect if you 
have two parallel strings.  (it takes a long time  to get the 4 pole 
disconnects 
from square D, rarely stocked)
daryl






From: Bruce 
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 6:44:12 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power One Aurora Inverters

Hi all.  Does anyone have   any experience with the Power One Aurora 
grid-tied inverters?  Any   comments on the failure rate for inverters 
manufactured in the   last year or two?

Thanks.
 

Bruce Leininger  
Bruce Leininger
PV System Designer
GRID Alternatives
-
1171 Ocean Avenue
Suite 200
Oakland, CA  94608
C: 415-571-1764
www.gridalternatives.org
 
GRID Alternatives' mission is to empower   communities in need to 
meet   their basic requirements of health, education, and   

economic opportunity by   providing renewable energy and energy 
efficiency services,   equipment, and   training.  GRID 
Alternatives works   collaboratively with communities and local 
organizations   to identify specific   needs and to 
develop renewable energy solutions that are   environmentally,  
 
socially, and economically sustainable. We believe that   
environmental   stewardship, women's rights,and humanitarian 
protection are integral to these sustainable   solutions.___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SunnyBoy 1800

[Ryan J LeBlanc]

In addition to David's insight, I would like to also offer this link for the
manual:

 http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/service/downloads.html

If you click on the "Archive" tab, documentation is available for all
out-of-production units.

Also, http://www.SMA.de sometimes may have info that the US site doesn't.

~ Ryan LeBlanc

--

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 08:25:47 -0700
From: David Katz 
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny boy 1800
Message-ID: <4d9dd77b.9010...@asis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Jesse,
Here is one more thing to look at.  I have 3 SMA 1800 W inverters on my 
house and had a very similar problem when I installed them.  They are 
very sensitive to AC voltage.  Mine would turn off at 128 VAC.  My 
utility voltage is 125 per leg and because of voltage "drop" in a log 
run of wire, it would get over 128 when the inverters were putting out 
power. This made it go on and off every 5 minutes.  I changed the 
parameters through the Sunny WebBox and set the AC cut-off to 135 and 
the problem went away.
David

David Katz

Founder & CTO

AEE Solar

T(707) 825-1200

C(831) 325-9582

F(707) 825-1202

dk...@aeesolar.com 

www.aeesolar.com 



On 4/6/2011 4:41 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote:
> Wrenches,
>
> I've been working on a sunny boy 1800 with some problems. There is no
manual and SMA website does not have it available.  I need to watch the
lights on the inverter to find the problem, but I'm not there now and I
can't get this off my mind, so I will ask the esteemed members of this list.
>
> When it's cloudy, the inverter comes on and loads the array. I can watch
the sunny keeper watts reading rise until it get around 1000w and full sun
hits the array.  Once full sun hits the array, the inverter drops out.  It
did it three times to me today, and the inverter will not come on during
full sun. Grid volts and hz are okay durning this.
>
> I know it's impossible to troubleshoot like this, but anyone deal with
problems like this?
>
>
> Thanks for the help!
>
>
> Jesse Dahl
>
> Sent from my iPad!!!
> ___

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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[jay peltz]

Hi Daryl,

I have drilled a small pilot hole, put plenty of sealant around it, then lag 
through it with what ever foot you are using.

I don't think the cost of flashing around each foot with a rubber boot and 15 
screws is any better but its sure more costly in time and money.

jay peltz power


On Apr 7, 2011, at 2:28 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

> Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
> galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
> has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
> barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
> have others dealt with this type of material?
> 
> Thanks for any information,
> Daryl
> 
> Daryl DeJoy
> NABCEP Certified PV installer
> Penobscot Solar Design
> 
> mbers.re-wrenches.org
> 

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[RE-wrenches] Power One Aurora Inverters

[Bruce]

Hi all.  Does anyone have any experience with the Power One Aurora 
grid-tied inverters?  Any comments on the failure rate for inverters 
manufactured in the last year or two?


Thanks.

Bruce Leininger

PV System Designer

GRID Alternatives

-

1171 Ocean Avenue

Suite 200
Oakland, CA  94608

C: 415-571-1764

/www.gridalternatives.org/

/GRID Alternatives' mission is to empower communities in need to meet 
their basic requirements of health, education, and economic opportunity 
by providing renewable energy and energy efficiency services, equipment, 
and training.GRID Alternatives works collaboratively with communities 
and local organizations to identify specific needs and to develop 
renewable energy solutions that are environmentally, socially, and 
economically sustainable. We believe that environmental stewardship, 
women's rights,and humanitarian protection are integral to these 
sustainable solutions./


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Re: [RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

[Peter Parrish]

The Code back then was a little vague back then and I am not sure it has
been improved.

First, there needs to be a DC disconnect just before or just after
penetrating the building shell. Most AHJ allowed us to place this disconnect
in the attic within reach of the access door. Once we needed to place the DC
disconnect on the roof and we were able to get away with a fused combiner
box. Another time we actually needed to put a 600V 3-pole fused disco on the
roof.

Second, and this is really an obscure point. Only conduit, raceways and the
like (not cable runs) were allowed in the attic space and walls. So FMC is
okay but MC is not. It is an issue of unfortunate terminology.

Third, you need to label the conduit “Caution – Solar Circuit”, even in the
walls.

Finally, where the conduit passes thru studs, you need protection plates on
the studs to prevent screws or nails piercing the conduit.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

-Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 3:05 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

Hi folks

Was wondering- does anyone know back in 2005, if it was permissible to run
DC conductors from the roof, through the home to the inverter location,
inside the house, per the NEC?

Thanks 

Keith Cronin

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conductor supporting requirements

[dan]

338.10(B)(4)(b) also kicks you over to 225 I... like 225.12+14- which kicks over to Table 230.51C.. maybe? (I'd do a messenger ground).Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conductor supporting requirements
From: Dave Click 
Date: Thu, April 07, 2011 3:11 pm
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

338.10(B)(4)(b) says to support in accordance with 334.30:

334.30 Securing and Supporting.
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, 
cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed 
so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4.5 ft) 
and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, 
or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be 
required to be secured within the raceway.

Andrew Truitt wrote:
> Does anyone know the maximum support spacing for conductors in free air
> and what code section addresses it?  I'm thinking of USE-2 or PV Wire
> being run in loop hangars along purlins under an array.
> Thanks in advance!
> For a brighter energy future,
>
> Andrew Truitt
> Principal
> TruittRenewableEnergyConsulting
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
> (202) 486-7507 
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713
> ;
>
> 24 copy.jpg
>
> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer
> fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous
> fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers
> more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
>
> ~William McDonough
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

[Hans Frederickson]

690.31(E), requiring metallic raceways or enclosures for DC circuits inside
the building was introduced in the 2005 NEC. Depending on when the 2005 NEC
was adopted by your local authority, it may or may not have been required at
the time of the installation. 
 
-Hans

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 3:05 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house


Hi folks


Was wondering- does anyone know back in 2005, if it was permissible to run
DC conductors from the roof, through the home to the inverter location,
inside the house, per the NEC?


Thanks 

Keith Cronin
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conductor supporting requirements

[dan]

Maybe check out 396?Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conductor supporting requirements
From: Andrew Truitt 
Date: Thu, April 07, 2011 1:39 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

  Does anyone know the maximum support spacing for conductors in free air and what code section addresses it?  I'm thinking of USE-2 or PV Wire being run in loop hangars along purlins under an array.   Thanks in advance!      For a brighter energy future,Andrew Truitt  PrincipalTruitt Renewable Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66) (202) 486-7507 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough ___
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[RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

[Keith Cronin]

Hi folks

Was wondering- does anyone know back in 2005, if it was permissible to run DC 
conductors from the roof, through the home to the inverter location, inside the 
house, per the NEC?

Thanks 

Keith Cronin___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] galvanized barn roofing

[penobscotsolar]

Does anyone have experience mounting arrays on barns with 24" wide
galvanized roofing (not standing seam)? It is flat, not corrugated, but
has an overlapping edge on either side. It's pretty much a standard on
barn roofs around here, but I hesitate to penetrate any metal roof. How
have others dealt with this type of material?

Thanks for any information,
Daryl

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Penobscot Solar Design


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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Howie Michaelson]

Vermont has a "Group Net Metering" program that permits any individual
rate payers on the same utility to create a net metered array and have the
utility credit each members account according to a formal legal agreement.
 Legislation requires that all utilities in the state are required to
allow and facilitate this program.

Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Thu, April 7, 2011 4:29 pm, Michael Welch wrote:
> This is a great topic for discussion on the RE-Markets list, where there
> are several more policy-oriented folks than here. I am cc'ing that address
> in this reply, so let's move the discussion there.
>
> Community solar is an important, up-and-coming thing. Specially for folks
> that don't have solar access. There's lots to it, like what kind of
> organizations can be set up to do this, and some serious barriers like
> securities regulations.
>
> Home Power has a couple of good community solar pieces in edit right now
> for the June/July issue.
>
> Larry Brown wrote at 12:56 PM 4/7/2011:
>
>>wrenches.
>>
>>I have had several inquires into this possible scenario.  anybody have
>>any experience doing this with their local utility?
>>
>>several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put
>>up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent
>>solar access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window.  the
>>system is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each
>>sub array having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output
>>of that sub array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement
>>and the proper paper work)  to a particular family based on how much
>>they invested into the system.  the output of the whole system is then
>>grid tied and all of the kwh go directly to the utility.  it is then
>>just a matter of accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's
>>produced is deducted from the kwh's used by that particular customer
>>on their home or business utility bill.  So the customer either has a
>>credit that is carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the
>>next utility bill.
>>
>>The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized
>>local location.
>>It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
>>And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
>>Much like Community Supported Agriculture
>>
>>Larry Brown
>>Sun Mountain
>>
>>
>>
>>___
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>
>
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>



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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Michael Welch]

This is a great topic for discussion on the RE-Markets list, where there are 
several more policy-oriented folks than here. I am cc'ing that address in this 
reply, so let's move the discussion there.

Community solar is an important, up-and-coming thing. Specially for folks that 
don't have solar access. There's lots to it, like what kind of organizations 
can be set up to do this, and some serious barriers like securities regulations.

Home Power has a couple of good community solar pieces in edit right now for 
the June/July issue.

Larry Brown wrote at 12:56 PM 4/7/2011:
 
>wrenches.
>
>I have had several inquires into this possible scenario.  anybody have  
>any experience doing this with their local utility?
>
>several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put  
>up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent  
>solar access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window.  the  
>system is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each  
>sub array having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output  
>of that sub array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement  
>and the proper paper work)  to a particular family based on how much  
>they invested into the system.  the output of the whole system is then  
>grid tied and all of the kwh go directly to the utility.  it is then  
>just a matter of accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's  
>produced is deducted from the kwh's used by that particular customer  
>on their home or business utility bill.  So the customer either has a  
>credit that is carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the  
>next utility bill.
>
>The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized  
>local location.
>It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
>And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
>Much like Community Supported Agriculture
>
>Larry Brown
>Sun Mountain
>
>
>
>___
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>
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>
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>www.members.re-wrenches.org


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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Jeff Irish]

I believe Massachusetts has this, which is called "community net metering".  
New York State does not allow it, but a bill is in the assembly and senate this 
session called "virtual net metering" whereby a single customer with multiple 
meters can interconnect to one and apply excess generation credits to the 
others.  The target market is counties, towns, cities, large companies.  Not 
quite what you have in mind, Larry, but a step in the right direction.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Energy 
Solutions
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

Washington State has a very good program which I believe is a kind of FIT 
Community solar thing that pays over $1.00/kW generated.
Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com

"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."


--- On Thu, 4/7/11, Dave Click  wrote:

From: Dave Click 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 1:05 PM
If you have a muni then it's possible, but I'd guess that with most
investor-owned utilities they'd just laugh in your face. There are a few
utilites out there that have done this- I think that Portland, OR and
Seattle have this and we're working on it here in Orlando too.

These links should help:
http://votesolar.org/2010/12/community-solar-coming-to-a-town-near-you/
http://votesolar.org/communitysolar/
http://irecusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/IREC-Community-Renewables-Report-11-16-10_FINAL.pdf

Larry Brown wrote:
> wrenches.
>
> I have had several inquires into this possible scenario. anybody have
> any experience doing this with their local utility?
>
> several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put
> up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent solar
> access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window. the system
> is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each sub array
> having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output of that sub
> array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement and the proper
> paper work) to a particular family based on how much they invested into
> the system. the output of the whole system is then grid tied and all of
> the kwh go directly to the utility. it is then just a matter of
> accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's produced is deducted
> from the kwh's used by that particular customer on their home or
> business utility bill. So the customer either has a credit that is
> carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the next utility bill.
>
> The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized
> local location.
> It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
> And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
> Much like Community Supported Agriculture
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Solar Energy Solutions]

Washington State has a very good program which I believe is a kind of FIT 
Community solar thing that pays over $1.00/kW generated.


Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.

503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 
 
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."

--- On Thu, 4/7/11, Dave Click  wrote:


From: Dave Click 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 1:05 PM


If you have a muni then it's possible, but I'd guess that with most 
investor-owned utilities they'd just laugh in your face. There are a few 
utilites out there that have done this- I think that Portland, OR and 
Seattle have this and we're working on it here in Orlando too.

These links should help:
http://votesolar.org/2010/12/community-solar-coming-to-a-town-near-you/
http://votesolar.org/communitysolar/
http://irecusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/IREC-Community-Renewables-Report-11-16-10_FINAL.pdf

Larry Brown wrote:
> wrenches.
>
> I have had several inquires into this possible scenario. anybody have
> any experience doing this with their local utility?
>
> several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put
> up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent solar
> access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window. the system
> is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each sub array
> having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output of that sub
> array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement and the proper
> paper work) to a particular family based on how much they invested into
> the system. the output of the whole system is then grid tied and all of
> the kwh go directly to the utility. it is then just a matter of
> accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's produced is deducted
> from the kwh's used by that particular customer on their home or
> business utility bill. So the customer either has a credit that is
> carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the next utility bill.
>
> The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized
> local location.
> It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
> And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
> Much like Community Supported Agriculture
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Options & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Lee Bristol]

Larry, et al,

The State of Maryland is working on legislation to enable such "virtual" net
metering arrangements but it is not here yet.  It is a wonderful idea as you
can imagine new sub-divisions being built with one lot set aside for a large
array for the community.

We set up a group of local investor/folks to do a PPA on a local community
church in University Park, Maryland.  The investors all contributed from $2k
to $5k to pay for the system and will get a return on their investment over
the next few years of hopefully more than 5%.  This was the only way for the
folks to have solar PV in their neighborhood as their houses generally had
trees and slate roofs.   Check out their website:
http://www.universityparksolar.com/

Lee Bristol

NABCEP Certified Solar Designer/Installer
Co-Founder & Commercial Channel Manager

Standard Solar Inc.
1355 Piccard Drive, Suite 300
Rockville, MD 20850
(301) 944-5105 Direct
(240) 479-1510 Cell
(301) 944-1202 Fax
leebris...@standardsolar.com


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Larry Brown  wrote:
> wrenches.
>
> I have had several inquires into this possible scenario.  anybody have any
> experience doing this with their local utility?
>
> several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put up
a
> solar array either on an existing building that has excellent solar access
> or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window.  the system is set up
> so that it is configured into sub arrays with each sub array having an
> inverter and a kwh meter that records the output of that sub array. each
of
> the sub arrays is designated (by agreement and the proper paper work)  to
a
> particular family based on how much they invested into the system.  the
> output of the whole system is then grid tied and all of the kwh go
directly
> to the utility.  it is then just a matter of accounting in that each of
the
> sub arrays kwh's produced is deducted from the kwh's used by that
particular
> customer on their home or business utility bill.  So the customer either
has
> a credit that is carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the
next
> utility bill.
>
> The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized
local
> location.
> It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
> And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
> Much like Community Supported Agriculture
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Options & settings:
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-- 
Lee Bristol
NABCEP Certified Solar Designer/Installer

Co-Founder & Commercial Channel Manager
Standard Solar, Inc.
1355 Piccard Drive, #300
Rockville, MD 20850
(301) 944-5105
(240) 479-1510 (c)
www.standardsolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Dave Click]

If you have a muni then it's possible, but I'd guess that with most 
investor-owned utilities they'd just laugh in your face. There are a few 
utilites out there that have done this- I think that Portland, OR and 
Seattle have this and we're working on it here in Orlando too.


These links should help:
http://votesolar.org/2010/12/community-solar-coming-to-a-town-near-you/
http://votesolar.org/communitysolar/
http://irecusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/IREC-Community-Renewables-Report-11-16-10_FINAL.pdf

Larry Brown wrote:

wrenches.

I have had several inquires into this possible scenario. anybody have
any experience doing this with their local utility?

several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put
up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent solar
access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window. the system
is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each sub array
having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output of that sub
array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement and the proper
paper work) to a particular family based on how much they invested into
the system. the output of the whole system is then grid tied and all of
the kwh go directly to the utility. it is then just a matter of
accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's produced is deducted
from the kwh's used by that particular customer on their home or
business utility bill. So the customer either has a credit that is
carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the next utility bill.

The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized
local location.
It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
Much like Community Supported Agriculture

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain



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[RE-wrenches] community solar

[Larry Brown]

wrenches.

I have had several inquires into this possible scenario.  anybody have  
any experience doing this with their local utility?


several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put  
up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent  
solar access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window.  the  
system is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each  
sub array having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output  
of that sub array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement  
and the proper paper work)  to a particular family based on how much  
they invested into the system.  the output of the whole system is then  
grid tied and all of the kwh go directly to the utility.  it is then  
just a matter of accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's  
produced is deducted from the kwh's used by that particular customer  
on their home or business utility bill.  So the customer either has a  
credit that is carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the  
next utility bill.


The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized  
local location.

It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
Much like Community Supported Agriculture

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conductor supporting requirements

[Dave Click]

338.10(B)(4)(b) says to support in accordance with 334.30:

334.30 Securing and Supporting.
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, 
cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed 
so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4.5 ft) 
and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, 
or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be 
required to be secured within the raceway.


Andrew Truitt wrote:

Does anyone know the maximum support spacing for conductors in free air
and what code section addresses it?  I'm thinking of USE-2 or PV Wire
being run in loop hangars along purlins under an array.
Thanks in advance!
For a brighter energy future,

Andrew Truitt
Principal
TruittRenewableEnergyConsulting
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
(202) 486-7507 
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713


24 copy.jpg

"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer
fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous
fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers
more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough



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[RE-wrenches] Conductor supporting requirements

[Andrew Truitt]

Does anyone know the maximum support spacing for conductors in free air and
what code section addresses it?  I'm thinking of USE-2 or PV Wire being run
in loop hangars along purlins under an array.

Thanks in advance!


For a brighter energy future,

Andrew Truitt
Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
(202) 486-7507
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713

[image: 24 copy.jpg]

"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny boy 1800

[David Katz]

Jesse,
Here is one more thing to look at.  I have 3 SMA 1800 W inverters on my 
house and had a very similar problem when I installed them.  They are 
very sensitive to AC voltage.  Mine would turn off at 128 VAC.  My 
utility voltage is 125 per leg and because of voltage "drop" in a log 
run of wire, it would get over 128 when the inverters were putting out 
power. This made it go on and off every 5 minutes.  I changed the 
parameters through the Sunny WebBox and set the AC cut-off to 135 and 
the problem went away.

David

David Katz

Founder & CTO

AEE Solar

T(707) 825-1200

C(831) 325-9582

F(707) 825-1202

dk...@aeesolar.com 

www.aeesolar.com 



On 4/6/2011 4:41 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote:

Wrenches,

I've been working on a sunny boy 1800 with some problems. There is no manual 
and SMA website does not have it available.  I need to watch the lights on the 
inverter to find the problem, but I'm not there now and I can't get this off my 
mind, so I will ask the esteemed members of this list.

When it's cloudy, the inverter comes on and loads the array. I can watch the 
sunny keeper watts reading rise until it get around 1000w and full sun hits the 
array.  Once full sun hits the array, the inverter drops out.  It did it three 
times to me today, and the inverter will not come on during full sun. Grid 
volts and hz are okay durning this.

I know it's impossible to troubleshoot like this, but anyone deal with problems 
like this?


Thanks for the help!


Jesse Dahl

Sent from my iPad!!!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Float, Sell Voltages

[Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]]

Mike,

I approached it as if the batteries where installed in a UPS system. What
constant float voltage would the batteries be charged at during grid-up, so
they would be ready for grid-down? 

I would use 53.2V for Float and for Sell. 

I also recommend to use software on the inverter to automatically bring the
batteries to Absorb periodically. Most inverters have a setting to do this
daily. The Absorb Time can be rather short since the Depth of the Discharge
is so low. Of course, I would use different Absorb settings for an off-grid
location.

I am not sure what you mean by "wide open". The Charge Controller should go
wide open so long as it can stay in Bulk mode while the inverter is selling.
I have seen settings on the CC that cause it to go into Float and then the
inverter has nothing to sell.  

I would not set the float to 55V for hours on end. The batteries might start
to off-gas. At the same time, you can adjust Sell seasonally for inverters
that do not Temperature Correct the Sell Voltage. Concorde's Lifeline AGM
Technical Manual has a temperature chart that explains the V/T relationship.

Good Luck,

Maverick

Maverick Brown
BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer R # 091209-26
President & CEO
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
hol...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Float, Sell Voltages

Trying to tweak a couple of battery based grid-tie systems.Trying to
maximize sell back without frying or draining the batteries. Have gotten
various opinions from manufacturer's techs, so why not a few more..
Concord AGM's set now as follows:
Bulk = 57.2v
float = 53.2v
sell = 52v
It is my understanding that sell is actually a "low end float" on a grid-tie
system and to keep the CC "wide open" for sellback, I might set the float to
around 54.5v+ ( and maybe even as high as 55v?) and the sell voltage a bit
higher - (53.2?) with the understanding that if grid goes down for extended
period of time that the float must be set back to 53.2.  Any thoughts?

One other thingwith 4.3kW PV array, what would you expect as the maximum
sell wattage to show up at peak sun? (my guess is 3.3 - 3.5)



Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

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[RE-wrenches] Float, Sell Voltages

[holtek]

Trying to tweak a couple of battery based grid-tie systems.Trying to 
maximize sell back without frying or draining the batteries. Have gotten 
various opinions from manufacturer's techs, so why not a few more..

Concord AGM's set now as follows:
Bulk = 57.2v
float = 53.2v
sell = 52v
It is my understanding that sell is actually a "low end float" on a grid-tie 
system and to keep the CC "wide open" for sellback, I might set the float to 
around 54.5v+ ( and maybe even as high as 55v?) and the sell voltage a bit 
higher - (53.2?) with the understanding that if grid goes down for extended 
period of time that the float must be set back to 53.2.  Any thoughts?


One other thingwith 4.3kW PV array, what would you expect as the maximum 
sell wattage to show up at peak sun? (my guess is 3.3 - 3.5)




Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

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