[RE-wrenches] Fwd: AC Coupled
Wrenches, I have a client with a 4.6 kw grid tied system using a Sunny Boy 6000 inverter. We have AC Coupled to that system with 2 Sunny Island 5048's and 8-Concorde SunXtender 3050T 6 volt batteries in series feeding an essential load/critical load sub panel. The wiring to the sub panel from the Sunny Islands is #6, the max wire size that can be used in the AC 1 and AC 2, in and out, of the Sunny Islands. The 2 pole breaker at the sub panel is 70 amps ( 56 amps feed through current x 1.25 = 70 amps ). This allow the 4.6 kw solar system and the Sunny Boy 6000 to act as a micro grid and charge the batteries and support the loads in the SubPanel when the grid is down and still be isolated from the main service panel and the grid. We have moved several loads from the main 200 amp service panel into the essential load/critical load panel, the well pump, the refrigerator, the circulator/boiler controls for the propane fired radiant heating system and some lights and communication circuits. The main 200 amp main service panel has an integrated manual transfer switch that has allowed them to fire up the gas powered Honda generator and run all of the loads when the grid was down before we installed any systems to their home. They would like to be able to continue to do this in an extended power outage. So here is the question? In a power outage, if they fire up the generator and move the manual transfer switch in the Main Service Panel to generator, the Sunny Islands will see this generator power coming from the Main Service Panel and switch from Back Up Mode to Pass Through Mode. The Sunny Boy 6000 will send any excess power not used by the loads to the the generator (as if it was a net metering arrangement ) believing it is the grid. This would probably destroy the generator or some other disasterous scenario. So how can the generator feeding the Main Service panel be isolated from the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boy feeding the SubPanel as a micro grid in a power outage and still provide power to the loads that are in the Main Service Panel? Thank you for the collective wisdom and knowledge that this group has acquired from years in the trenches making it all happen. Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain NABCEP Certified PV Installer ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Maverick, But you would think after 20 years, inverter manufacturers would make some software similar to generator cycling to handle this cycling issue. I believe that the XW Inverters have this ability in sell mode. There is traditional sell voltage. And then there is a setting that puts the batteries through a traditional bulk cycle while still selling back any excess energy. The next question would be, is this better for battery longevity. Seems like a hybrid of the two would be ideal. Doug Wells The Solar Specialists Morrisville, VT 05661 (p) 802-223-7014 (c) 802-498-5856 www.thesolarspecialists.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: AC Coupled
Larry, Would it not be better to connect the Honda directly to the the Sunny Islands? Use a manual transfer switch to choose between the grid and the Honda. Then, in an extended outage, your client could charge the batteries with it and turn the darn thing off once in awhile. Maybe you could transfer more of the loads to the backup panel. How big is the Honda? I don't know of one bigger than 10KW. That's too small to support a busy 200 Amp panel anyway. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric --- You wrote: Wrenches, I have a client with a 4.6 kw grid tied system using a Sunny Boy 6000 inverter. We have AC Coupled to that system with 2 Sunny Island 5048's and 8-Concorde SunXtender 3050T 6 volt batteries in series feeding an essential load/critical load sub panel. The wiring to the sub panel from the Sunny Islands is #6, the max wire size that can be used in the AC 1 and AC 2, in and out, of the Sunny Islands. The 2 pole breaker at the sub panel is 70 amps ( 56 amps feed through current x 1.25 = 70 amps ). This allow the 4.6 kw solar system and the Sunny Boy 6000 to act as a micro grid and charge the batteries and support the loads in the SubPanel when the grid is down and still be isolated from the main service panel and the grid. We have moved several loads from the main 200 amp service panel into the essential load/critical load panel, the well pump, the refrigerator, the circulator/boiler controls for the propane fired radiant heating system and some lights and communication circuits. The main 200 amp main service panel has an integrated manual transfer switch that has allowed them to fire up the gas powered Honda generator and run all of the loads when the grid was down before we installed any systems to their home. They would like to be able to continue to do this in an extended power outage. So here is the question? In a power outage, if they fire up the generator and move the manual transfer switch in the Main Service Panel to generator, the Sunny Islands will see this generator power coming from the Main Service Panel and switch from Back Up Mode to Pass Through Mode. The Sunny Boy 6000 will send any excess power not used by the loads to the the generator (as if it was a net metering arrangement ) believing it is the grid. This would probably destroy the generator or some other disasterous scenario. So how can the generator feeding the Main Service panel be isolated from the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boy feeding the SubPanel as a micro grid in a power outage and still provide power to the loads that are in the Main Service Panel? Thank you for the collective wisdom and knowledge that this group has acquired from years in the trenches making it all happen. Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain NABCEP Certified PV Installer --- end of quote --- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: AC Coupled
Larry, It sounds like the customer can power all loads with the generator and the non-critical load may even be the motivation for starting the generator? How about a relay that opens the SunnyBoy output or the Sunny Island input when the generator runs? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 2/18/2012 6:03 AM, Larry Brown wrote: Wrenches, I have a client with a 4.6 kw grid tied system using a Sunny Boy 6000 inverter. We have AC Coupled to that system with 2 Sunny Island 5048's and 8-Concorde SunXtender 3050T 6 volt batteries in series feeding an essential load/critical load sub panel. The wiring to the sub panel from the Sunny Islands is #6, the max wire size that can be used in the AC 1 and AC 2, in and out, of the Sunny Islands. The 2 pole breaker at the sub panel is 70 amps ( 56 amps feed through current x 1.25 = 70 amps ). This allow the 4.6 kw solar system and the Sunny Boy 6000 to act as a micro grid and charge the batteries and support the loads in the SubPanel when the grid is down and still be isolated from the main service panel and the grid. We have moved several loads from the main 200 amp service panel into the essential load/critical load panel, the well pump, the refrigerator, the circulator/boiler controls for the propane fired radiant heating system and some lights and communication circuits. The main 200 amp main service panel has an integrated manual transfer switch that has allowed them to fire up the gas powered Honda generator and run all of the loads when the grid was down before we installed any systems to their home. They would like to be able to continue to do this in an extended power outage. So here is the question? In a power outage, if they fire up the generator and move the manual transfer switch in the Main Service Panel to generator, the Sunny Islands will see this generator power coming from the Main Service Panel and switch from Back Up Mode to Pass Through Mode. The Sunny Boy 6000 will send any excess power not used by the loads to the the generator (as if it was a net metering arrangement ) believing it is the grid. This would probably destroy the generator or some other disasterous scenario. So how can the generator feeding the Main Service panel be isolated from the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boy feeding the SubPanel as a micro grid in a power outage and still provide power to the loads that are in the Main Service Panel? Thank you for the collective wisdom and knowledge that this group has acquired from years in the trenches making it all happen. Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain NABCEP Certified PV Installer ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled
Larry, I have run into similar situations. The simplest thing is to wire the Sunny Boy 6000 into a breaker in a small dedicated box on the *grid side* of the transfer switch. Grid present: feeds back normally Grid absent: interacts with Sunny Islands Grid absent, genset on: Sunny Boy cut off from the system I'd assume that they wouldn't lose much, if any production from the PV, since they'd probably be running the genset for short runs, at night, or in cloudy weather. Best, Hilton Wrenches, I have a client with a 4.6 kw grid tied system using a Sunny Boy 6000 inverter. We have AC Coupled to that system with 2 Sunny Island 5048's and 8-Concorde SunXtender 3050T 6 volt batteries in series feeding an essential load/critical load sub panel. The wiring to the sub panel from the Sunny Islands is #6, the max wire size that can be used in the AC 1 and AC 2, in and out, of the Sunny Islands. The 2 pole breaker at the sub panel is 70 amps ( 56 amps feed through current x 1.25 = 70 amps ). This allow the 4.6 kw solar system and the Sunny Boy 6000 to act as a micro grid and charge the batteries and support the loads in the SubPanel when the grid is down and still be isolated from the main service panel and the grid. We have moved several loads from the main 200 amp service panel into the essential load/critical load panel, the well pump, the refrigerator, the circulator/boiler controls for the propane fired radiant heating system and some lights and communication circuits. The main 200 amp main service panel has an integrated manual transfer switch that has allowed them to fire up the gas powered Honda generator and run all of the loads when the grid was down before we installed any systems to their home. They would like to be able to continue to do this in an extended power outage. So here is the question? In a power outage, if they fire up the generator and move the manual transfer switch in the Main Service Panel to generator, the Sunny Islands will see this generator power coming from the Main Service Panel and switch from Back Up Mode to Pass Through Mode. The Sunny Boy 6000 will send any excess power not used by the loads to the the generator (as if it was a net metering arrangement ) believing it is the grid. This would probably destroy the generator or some other disasterous scenario. So how can the generator feeding the Main Service panel be isolated from the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boy feeding the SubPanel as a micro grid in a power outage and still provide power to the loads that are in the Main Service Panel? Thank you for the collective wisdom and knowledge that this group has acquired from years in the trenches making it all happen. Larry -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] cycling flooded batteries is not necessary
to reiterate wrenches: two battery manufacturers (surrette trojan) have both stated there is NO NEED to cycle floating, flooded lead-antimony batteries. i have heard this urban legend for some time and it is nice to finally have it put to rest as an incorrect myth. todd On Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:04am, Doug Wells dwe...@thesolarspecialists.com said: Maverick, But you would think after 20 years, inverter manufacturers would make some software similar to generator cycling to handle this cycling issue. I believe that the XW Inverters have this ability in sell mode. There is traditional sell voltage. And then there is a setting that puts the batteries through a traditional bulk cycle while still selling back any excess energy. The next question would be, is this better for battery longevity. Seems like a hybrid of the two would be ideal. Doug Wells The Solar Specialists Morrisville, VT 05661 (p) 802-223-7014 (c) 802-498-5856 www.thesolarspecialists.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] cycling flooded batteries is not necessary
This thread has been quite riveting for me over the last few days! Over the last couple decades in my remote mostly off-grid area here.we have seen quite a passel (perhaps the proper group term might instead be a thud, deadweight or boat anchor) of different battery types. My personal observations (and my aching back) say: ~Cycling flooded lead acid batteries when new, either PbSb or PbCa, to bring them up to full capacity is an urban legend and is actually deleterious to battery life; not necessarily so with other more exotic battery types that PV folks don't use and can't afford yet (lithium ion etc) -- all a new flooded battery bank needs is water and a proper initial equalization cycle; ~PbCa batteries have the amazing property of using very little water. The ones we've used (CD) also have a very large sludge pit at the bottom, and clear plastic sides so you can watch it build up. Woe to the homeowner that replaces Ca with Sb and doesn't follow the NEW maintenance guidelines for Sb (water them only every year or two with Ca, not so with Sb) ~The difference in cycle life between 2 volt batteries and 6 volt is huge. Just the difference in sludge pit capacity per amp-hour is big, maybe that's part of it. On that note; ~L-16s have only one advantage over T105s IMHO, other than portability for the 105s - you don't need as many parallel strings to get the same capacity, and parallel strings cause all kinds of unforeseen problems creeping up on the unwary owner; ~And, if you need a huge battery bank, 2 volt cells are the way to go. For all of the above reasons. And if you are paying for a big bank of 2-volt cells to make 48 volts, you can probably afford a system maintenance contract too. ~If the system is owner-maintained and not installer-maintained, avoid AGMs gels etc at all costs. Most folks just don't understand. If we can do all the system programming, and lock the owner's know-it-all buddies, cousins, inlaws and outlaws out of the system, AGMs are great. If some unauthorized know-it-all tweaks a controller setting somewhere for their buddy over a few beers, watch out! -- Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 (voicemail) On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 2:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: to reiterate wrenches: two battery manufacturers (surrette trojan) have both stated there is NO NEED to cycle floating, flooded lead-antimony batteries. i have heard this urban legend for some time and it is nice to finally have it put to rest as an incorrect myth. todd ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] cycling flooded batteries is not necessary
But they say that periodic equalazation is, the is this same as one good hard cycle. So it could be said that One cycle a month is all a lead antinmony battery needs. and of course water replacement, and sp gr testing to be sure the equalization was successful and when the battery gets old and the self discharge gets higher you may have to cycle more like once a week. DT. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com toddc...@finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 3:37 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] cycling flooded batteries is not necessary to reiterate wrenches: two battery manufacturers (surrette trojan) have both stated there is NO NEED to cycle floating, flooded lead-antimony batteries. i have heard this urban legend for some time and it is nice to finally have it put to rest as an incorrect myth. todd On Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:04am, Doug Wells dwe...@thesolarspecialists.com said: Maverick, But you would think after 20 years, inverter manufacturers would make some software similar to generator cycling to handle this cycling issue. I believe that the XW Inverters have this ability in sell mode. There is traditional sell voltage. And then there is a setting that puts the batteries through a traditional bulk cycle while still selling back any excess energy. The next question would be, is this better for battery longevity. Seems like a hybrid of the two would be ideal. Doug Wells The Solar Specialists Morrisville, VT 05661 (p) 802-223-7014 (c) 802-498-5856 www.thesolarspecialists.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled
If it was connected such that the gen start would disable the DGI inverter and any manuel start would use the gen start module the syn would happen. Darryl From: Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled Larry, I have run into similar situations. The simplest thing is to wire the Sunny Boy 6000 into a breaker in a small dedicated box on the *grid side* of the transfer switch. Grid present: feeds back normally Grid absent: interacts with Sunny Islands Grid absent, genset on: Sunny Boy cut off from the system I'd assume that they wouldn't lose much, if any production from the PV, since they'd probably be running the genset for short runs, at night, or in cloudy weather. Best, Hilton Wrenches, I have a client with a 4.6 kw grid tied system using a Sunny Boy 6000 inverter. We have AC Coupled to that system with 2 Sunny Island 5048's and 8-Concorde SunXtender 3050T 6 volt batteries in series feeding an essential load/critical load sub panel. The wiring to the sub panel from the Sunny Islands is #6, the max wire size that can be used in the AC 1 and AC 2, in and out, of the Sunny Islands. The 2 pole breaker at the sub panel is 70 amps ( 56 amps feed through current x 1.25 = 70 amps ). This allow the 4.6 kw solar system and the Sunny Boy 6000 to act as a micro grid and charge the batteries and support the loads in the SubPanel when the grid is down and still be isolated from the main service panel and the grid. We have moved several loads from the main 200 amp service panel into the essential load/critical load panel, the well pump, the refrigerator, the circulator/boiler controls for the propane fired radiant heating system and some lights and communication circuits. The main 200 amp main service panel has an integrated manual transfer switch that has allowed them to fire up the gas powered Honda generator and run all of the loads when the grid was down before we installed any systems to their home. They would like to be able to continue to do this in an extended power outage. So here is the question? In a power outage, if they fire up the generator and move the manual transfer switch in the Main Service Panel to generator, the Sunny Islands will see this generator power coming from the Main Service Panel and switch from Back Up Mode to Pass Through Mode. The Sunny Boy 6000 will send any excess power not used by the loads to the the generator (as if it was a net metering arrangement ) believing it is the grid. This would probably destroy the generator or some other disasterous scenario. So how can the generator feeding the Main Service panel be isolated from the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boy feeding the SubPanel as a micro grid in a power outage and still provide power to the loads that are in the Main Service Panel? Thank you for the collective wisdom and knowledge that this group has acquired from years in the trenches making it all happen. Larry -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Net-Metering Vs. Net-Billing
I've been invited to take part in stake holder consultation meetings with a consultancy employed by the Government to make recommendations on renewable energy legislation for Anguilla. In the first of two meetings, they announced their intention to recommend a net-billing arrangement for grid-tied residential solar systems on the basis of offering the consumer less-than-avoided-cost. I was vocally opposed to anything other than net-metering at retail as I believe it cannot work and will fail and I have written a blog entry describing the issues. http://caribbeanrenewable.blogspot.com/ As I have another meeting with them, I would like to prepare some examples of how this is a failed system. If anyone can offer some information I can use, or would like to critic my post, I would like to hear from you. As background, this is a tropical island with great sunshine, electricity at 43c/Kwh, and no incentives for solar installation. -- Chris Mason Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
