Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island vs. XW system - advice requested
When net metering became available in Va. in 2006, we wanted to upgrade and enlarge a Y2K battery backup system using the Trace Power Panel and Kohler 8.5 RMY generator. So we became one of the first on the East Coast, judging from serial number, to use the XW6048. A couple of the early units needed control board replacement last year, under warrantee and reimbursed, but no issues other than that, after about a dozen systems. We typically do a 3-3.5 KW array on a single CC, ansd single 6048, and use the Midnite E-Panel, with 4 8A8D Deka AGM's. Performance runs about 16-18 KWH's per day peak, with output in Va. conditions, of 10-12 KWH/ d , 1 yr + annual average. It's what I used on my own house. Rarely need generator backup. I have the Midnite Classic CC on my system, and I'm pleased with that also. Just ordered another system from Sunwize yesterday. Ken Schaal CommonWealth Solar, LLC Ashland Va. - Original Message - From: Glenn Burt To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island vs. XW system - advice requested I have experience with the SI/SB designs, and can warn you that they typically need a boatload of additional switchgear to support a good robust design. That being said they work great together, handle battery charging like no other and we rarely get calls on them. I have seen the XW system, and although have no firsthand experience with it, was walked through one by another trusted wrench, and his experience with both systems may have swayed me - almost all the wall of additional switchgear has been incorporated into the XW. My next GTWB system will be an XW system. YMMV, Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island vs. XW system - advice requested Wrenches, We have worked with Outback Radian and Schneider XW once or twice each for grid-tie with backup, and with Sunny Boy/Sunny Island numerous times. The SMA is certainly the most sophisticated equipment, but also the most expensive. For a particular job coming up, the loads are not excessive, and the array will be 8kW. The main hitch is that the array will be located on a barn roof that is about 500' from the BOS and home. I suspect that running high-voltage DC from the array to a Sunny Boy, and then feeding a pair of Sunny Islands makes the most sense. My question is this: does it make any sense to consider running two high-voltage subarrays 500' to two Schneider XW-MPPT-80 600V charge controllers, feeding two XW inverters (in order to handle the full 8kW) in a DC-coupled approach? Is there ever a situation in which this would be a better solution than SMA? Thank you, as always, Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
David may be on the right track. Check for a newer digital watt-hour meter at your customer's location. Newer watt-hour meters have two channels of metering in an attempt to thwart people who used to flip their mechanical meters over (usually at night) and run them backwards to un-use power, and thus reduce their utility bill. As installed, newer W-H meters consider both channels consumed power, so it won't matter whether the meter is installed correctly, or reversed. If your customer hasn't notified their utility company of their system, this could be the problem. Case in point: When we installed a grid-tied PV system on our home, we obtained a grid-tie agreement with the power company, they came out and replaced our original meter with one that had been reprogrammed, allowing one channel to measure incoming; the other outgoing power. Without that change, we'd have been billed for our consumed power AND our back-fed power, which would have easily increased our bill by 50% or more. Dan, Senior Engineer Exeltech Solar Products --- On Fri, 8/24/12, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: From: David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, August 24, 2012, 7:43 AM Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Jesse, Are you sure that you even want to take this on? 20' wind tower, 500 watt (rated) machines, four battery strings in parallel - the design itself has enough weakness, based only on the scant information that you have provided, that it might not be a system with which you'd want to get involved. Also, some confusion here - are the inverters FX3048T or GTFX3048? David has assumed the latter, asking about selling, but you are describing a utility-backup setup, rather than utility-interactive. Utility backup with only ineffective wind as the secondary source would indeed increase a utility bill, at least marginally. It sounds as though the system could be performing exactly as designed. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 8/24/2012 7:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: "Jesse Dahl" dahlso...@gmail.com To: "Wrenches" RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
It would be good to know how much energy the wind turbines have been producing, if any, if that information is even available. Eight batteries per inverter? Two separate banks? They installed the system? DIY? In any event, it sounds like a situation you want to approach with caution. The crux of the problem may be they now use the grid to charge the batteries which power the inverters which power the loads, instead of directly supplying the loads with the grid. Dick Ratico --- You wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse --- end of quote --- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] PV Production Meter on a XW System
Wrenches, I would like to here some thoughts on monitoring the production a XW in grid tie with battery backup mode. I normally use the Sunny Island for my grid tie with battery backup systems and am considering going with the XW on my next one. Just wondering where in the system one would wire the AC PV Production meter to best represent the amount of power sold to the grid. We have performance based incentives around here that require metering of the power going back to the grid. With the SI systems this is easily accomplished by putting the required meter after the sunny boy before going to the critical loads panel. Any ideas about how to accomplish this with the DC coupled XW system? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Aaron Mandelkorn NABCEP Certified PV Installer Owner / Operator Renewable Energy Outfitters Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201 (970)596-3744 reoso...@gmail.com www.reosolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the house. Batteries are energy losers! What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two register meter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com mailto:dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com mailto:dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have gathered is an absolute bust. Just doing a little online research it seems like they are getting next to nothing from the wind generators. From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I would say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads. This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg k...@coveoregon.com wrote: Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the house. Batteries are energy losers! What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two register meter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in this application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters (board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid (internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an outage to back up. the only additional use the system would bring to their bill is re-floating the batteries occasionally. with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house ups. i wonder what the intention or original design was supposed to do? todd On Friday, August 24, 2012 9:14am, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com said: I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have gathered is an absolute bust. Just doing a little online research it seems like they are getting next to nothing from the wind generators. From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I would say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads. This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg [mailto:k...@coveoregon.com] k...@coveoregon.com wrote: Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the house. Batteries are energy losers! What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two register meter. Kent OsterbergBlue Mountain Solar, Inc.[http://www.bluemountainsolar.com] www.bluemountainsolar.comOn 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz [mailto:dk...@aeesolar.com] dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl [mailto:dahlso...@gmail.com] dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem.They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank.They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. What I know about the system: 2 - outback inverters, 48v 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. Thanks eh! Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Im with you on the wisdom of it. The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid tie, but there are very few people that understand the off-grid applications (DT is the only person I think is worth listening to.) The contractor they chose was the only contractor the home owners spoke to that lacked any type of certification, not that that means anything. The homeowner told them what they wanted to do and the contractor said okay. Even though it was a poor idea. I was shown email conversations between the two. Of course there is always two sides to these stories... The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge two battery banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters. Both inverters were also tied to the homes panelboard to help charge the bank in-case of low wind. The two Outbacks fed a 100A panelboard that had a few loads from the home wired to it (well pump, furnace, sump, various receptacles) The panel also has a bypass switch that allows it to bypass the inverters all together and use straight grid power to run the loads. The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers, the contractor supplied the inverters and electrical BOS and the 16 MK 12V batteries. Another contractor came up to program the setpoints. I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I keep finding them up here, its getting a little old. I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80 feet or to scrap both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the want to hire me, what I say goes and if I say it all comes out to start over, that's what happens. On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in this application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters (board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid (internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an outage to back up. the only additional use the system would bring to their bill is re-floating the batteries occasionally. with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house ups. i wonder what the intention or original design was supposed to do? todd On Friday, August 24, 2012 9:14am, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com said: I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have gathered is an absolute bust. Just doing a little online research it seems like they are getting next to nothing from the wind generators. From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I would say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads. This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg k...@coveoregon.com wrote: Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the house. Batteries are energy losers! What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two register meter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling. Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time. David Katz - Reply message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Hello, I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any
[RE-wrenches] Disconnets
Hello, I've been having a long conversation with a local guy about disconnects that are usable in DC PV circuits. From what I have seen, GE, Eaton... they are usable up to the 250VDC it has listed on the labels, or more if poles are wired in series. The squared D 600Vac/dc is self tested to 600VDC/pole. The disconnects in question are not the solar disconnects on the market now. What are people using for the GDI systems? I seem to think that if if says 250VDC on the label, that is its rating unless you wire pole in series and the manufacturer has literature saying that that is acceptable. Thoughts on the square D self listing? Jesse ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Schott mods
Anyone knows who still might have a stash of Schott 240s available for sale? Thanks, marco ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Jesse, Sometimes the best thing you can do for a customer is document, in writing, what's wrong. And walk away if they aren't willing to fix it. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/24/2012 6:36 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: Im with you on the wisdom of it. The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid tie, but there are very few people that understand the off-grid applications (DT is the only person I think is worth listening to.) The contractor they chose was the only contractor the home owners spoke to that lacked any type of certification, not that that means anything. The homeowner told them what they wanted to do and the contractor said okay. Even though it was a poor idea. I was shown email conversations between the two. Of course there is always two sides to these stories... The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge two battery banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters. Both inverters were also tied to the homes panelboard to help charge the bank in-case of low wind. The two Outbacks fed a 100A panelboard that had a few loads from the home wired to it (well pump, furnace, sump, various receptacles) The panel also has a bypass switch that allows it to bypass the inverters all together and use straight grid power to run the loads. The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers, the contractor supplied the inverters and electrical BOS and the 16 MK 12V batteries. Another contractor came up to program the setpoints. I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I keep finding them up here, its getting a little old. I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80 feet or to scrap both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the want to hire me, what I say goes and if I say it all comes out to start over, that's what happens. On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in this application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters (board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid (internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an outage to back up. the only additional use the system would bring to their bill is re-floating the batteries occasionally. with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house ups. i wonder what the intention or original design was supposed to do? todd On Friday, August 24, 2012 9:14am, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com mailto:dahlso...@gmail.com said: I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have gathered is an absolute bust. Just doing a little online research it seems like they are getting next to nothing from the wind generators. From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I would say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads. This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg k...@coveoregon.com mailto:k...@coveoregon.com wrote: Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the house. Batteries are energy losers! What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two register meter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com http://www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com mailto:dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Check to see if their meter goes backwards.
