Re: [RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance

[Carl Hansen]

I use a Fluke 36 amp clamp and i have to flip the meter to get the 
current flow direction right otherwise I always get a difference like that.


 Carl Hansen

On 5/29/2013 6:48 PM, Chris Mason wrote:

Try rotating the meter so the current flows the other way and see if the
effect is reversed. You probably have to zero the meter.
the current should be the same in every part of the circuit.


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Corey Shalanski <
cshalan...@joule-energy.com> wrote:


Wrenches,

I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic
understandings of electrical circuit theory:

Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter
turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and
4A on negative conductor.


I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the
circuit.

I've noticed this "imbalance" on several different inverter brands. Has
anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this
and satisfy my curiosity?

--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance

[Nick Soleil]

Hi Corey,

Are you sure the meter was zeroed?  If the meter was reading 0.5A at rest,
then that would happen.


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Corey Shalanski <
cshalan...@joule-energy.com> wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic
> understandings of electrical circuit theory:
>
> Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter
> turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and
> 4A on negative conductor.
>
>
> I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the
> circuit.
>
> I've noticed this "imbalance" on several different inverter brands. Has
> anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this
> and satisfy my curiosity?
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Joule Energy
> New Orleans, LA
>
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-- 

Cordially,

*Nick Soleil*

*Field Applications Engineer
*

*Enphase Energy*

Mobile: (707) 321-2937


**

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*
*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance

[Chris Mason]

Try rotating the meter so the current flows the other way and see if the
effect is reversed. You probably have to zero the meter.
the current should be the same in every part of the circuit.


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Corey Shalanski <
cshalan...@joule-energy.com> wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic
> understandings of electrical circuit theory:
>
> Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter
> turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and
> 4A on negative conductor.
>
>
> I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the
> circuit.
>
> I've noticed this "imbalance" on several different inverter brands. Has
> anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this
> and satisfy my curiosity?
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Joule Energy
> New Orleans, LA
>
> ___
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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[RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance

[Corey Shalanski]

Wrenches,

I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic
understandings of electrical circuit theory:

Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter
turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and
4A on negative conductor.


I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the
circuit.

I've noticed this "imbalance" on several different inverter brands. Has
anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this
and satisfy my curiosity?

--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA
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[RE-wrenches] Defective modules

[Hilton Dier III]

Greetings Wrenches,

I looked at the article a bit more closely and a crack emerged. The 
article mentions two Spanish projects that were tested and the modules 
had a 34% "defect rate." I looked at the study (linked in the article) 
and what they were talking about was thermographic defects - hot spots, 
not absolute failures. They didn't specify how relatively hot these 
spots were, either. They noted that the modules by that manufacturer 
("E", no names mentioned) had a power loss rate over three years that 
was 0.9% greater than others. None of the modules in the study lost more 
than 4% in the first three years. No mention of absolute failures.


Allan Sindelair's and Jim Duncan's points about vertically integrated 
companies are good. Better chance of survival and better control over 
inputs.


Hilton

--
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602
Tel: 802-223-6652

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz Pumps

[Carl Hansen]

  Ray, I've been getting Lorentz pumps from "The American West Windmill 
& Solar Co." in Abq.  the Rep. is Tony Tucker 505 238-8303  or 505 888-5119


   Carl
   Hansen&Sun Elect.
   505 470-0770

On 5/19/2013 1:50 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Interesting about the licensed pump installer, because in New Mexico 
there is not a license.  I've been installing PV pumping systems since 
1988, so I tire easily now when companies won't work with me, because 
I'm not "qualified".
I actually installed some of the "Mono" hand crank and electric 
powered pumps in Morocco before it was ETA or Lorentz.

I'll talk to Genpro on Monday.

Thanks everybody,

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 5/18/2013 6:19 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:

Hello Ray,

We have had success selling solar pumps, but nothing in the 30,000 
gpd category.


Unfortunately, as I understand it, Lorentz will not sell to anyone 
that is not a licensed pump installer.  You may talk to GenPro at 
http://www.genproenergy.com/lorentz-submersible-pumps.html to get the 
latest about Lorentz, or maybe team up with a licensed pump installer 
and do the solar part.


We have had great results with the Grundfos SQFlex system for 
anything that we have installed and haven't found the need to specify 
a Lorentz.


Good Luck


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:


Greetings Wrenchies;

I have had a few inquiries for larger flow rate pumps, and was
wondering what the latest on Lorentz pumps was.  They show some
commercial models with high flow rates (30,000gpd) but I haven't
gotten any response from the company directly.
I have three questions:
Are there any good in country distributors?
are they worth giving a try?
and finally, is anyone actually selling any solar pumps, or just
taking a lot of phone calls that ultimately lead no where (like us)?

Thanks in advance as always,

-- R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-American crap?

[Ray Walters]

  
  
Our only protection at this point is
  the Wrenches list.  If anybody on the list is seeing premature
  failures, we need to know.  You folks have saved my tushy many
  times in the past.  For now, I've stuck mostly with Solar World,
  and not had problems.  I will not be afraid to call any module
  manu out if I have to, to help save this industry.  If the failure
  rate is high enough, and energy production effected enough, I
  could see Congress even pulling the 30% tax credit.
  Tying warranties to nondisclosure agreements is bordering on
  unethical.
  I always knew something was fishy with modules selling for under
  $1/ watt
  
  R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
  On 5/29/2013 11:05 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
I find that at
least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the PV
buying market really doesn’t care what goes on their roof or
who puts it up; they just want it now (before the grid gets
too saturated and unable to accommodate much more PV) and
they want it cheap.  Being in this business for 35 years,
I’ve concluded that warranties are mostly smoke and mirrors
as far as 10 year or longer coverages, whether coming from
manufacturers or integrators.  How many of you bother to put
anything away to cover future warranty liabilities?  Doesn’t
happen in our business, whether a modco, inverter
manufacturer or integrator.  On the flip side, the fact that
the costs of going PV have gone down so much means that even
if mods and inverters have to be replaced at some point in
the future, it shouldn’t cost an arm and a leg.
 
My theory is that
those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned
subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are
more likely to be left standing in the years to come.  But
then, look at BP’s decision to pull out of the PV sphere
several years ago and the Schott group’s decision to bail
last June.  Maybe all bets are off?
 
And note that in
that New York Times piece of today:  Non-Chinese
manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The
defective panels installed on the Los Angeles area
warehouse, for instance, were made by an American
  manufacturer. A reporter was granted access to the
project on the condition that the parties’ identities not be
disclosed because of a confidential legal settlement.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

 
Names need to be
made public for the good of all concerned.
 
marco
 

  
From:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
  Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective
modules-Chinese crap?
  

 

  On more than
one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential
customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and
perhaps (vertically-integrated and long-established)
Kyocera, I'm not confident that any manufacturer will be
still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year warranty that
all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my
points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on
off grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a
cautionary note about going for the cheapest price, and the
effects of the unsustainable drop in module prices on the
global PV industry. 

It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace
entire arrays of 160s under warranty when 25% showed the
familiar hot-spot failure. 

There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV
module. The NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no
clothes.  Better to tell the world about the naked emperor
sooner than later, so that just possibly the shift can
begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin
to a system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath:
as long as commercial systems are based on short-term

[RE-wrenches] Defective modules-American crap?

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

I find that at least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the PV
buying market really doesn't care what goes on their roof or who puts it up;
they just want it now (before the grid gets too saturated and unable to
accommodate much more PV) and they want it cheap.  Being in this business
for 35 years, I've concluded that warranties are mostly smoke and mirrors as
far as 10 year or longer coverages, whether coming from manufacturers or
integrators.  How many of you bother to put anything away to cover future
warranty liabilities?  Doesn't happen in our business, whether a modco,
inverter manufacturer or integrator.  On the flip side, the fact that the
costs of going PV have gone down so much means that even if mods and
inverters have to be replaced at some point in the future, it shouldn't cost
an arm and a leg.

 

My theory is that those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned
subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are more likely to
be left standing in the years to come.  But then, look at BP's decision to
pull out of the PV sphere several years ago and the Schott group's decision
to bail last June.  Maybe all bets are off?

 

And note that in that New York Times piece of today:  Non-Chinese
manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The defective panels
installed on the Los Angeles area warehouse, for instance, were made by an
American manufacturer. A reporter was granted access to the project on the
condition that the parties' identities not be disclosed because of a
confidential legal settlement.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-d
ark-side.html?pagewanted=all
 &_r=2& 

 

Names need to be made public for the good of all concerned.

 

marco

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap?

 

On more than one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential
customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and perhaps
(vertically-integrated and long-established) Kyocera, I'm not confident that
any manufacturer will be still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year
warranty that all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my
points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on off
grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a cautionary note about going
for the cheapest price, and the effects of the unsustainable drop in module
prices on the global PV industry. 

It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace entire arrays of
160s under warranty when 25% showed the familiar hot-spot failure. 

There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV module. The
NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no clothes.  Better to tell the
world about the naked emperor sooner than later, so that just possibly the
shift can begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin to a
system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath: as long as commercial
systems are based on short-term third-party financial gain - accelerated
depreciation and the 30% federal tax credit - there's no incentive for
systems to be built to last, or to cost more than whatever is cheapest up
front. 

Have you reviewed the list of deceased solar companies?
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Decea
sed-Solar-Companies

This could turn into quite a rant, so . We all just need to be
careful what we ask for, because we might get it.


Allan

Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com   

 

 

On 5/29/2013 9:01 AM, frenergy wrote:

Hilton,

 

I have not been experiencing anything unusual in failure
rates.of course I have not caved to the up-front lower cost tease of
Chinese PVs and have only sold USA made PVs built by manus in biz for
decades.  This choice has lost me only a few customers, maybe now they will
come back.  It seems interesting to me that you would mention 3 Chinese
companies as 'first tier'.  When I think of first tier I think of companies
that have been around for much longer than that.

 

You are absolutely right though, as an industry, "we" need to
identify this problem and deal with it now, like now, lest we go the path of
solar thermal in the 80's.  Possibly the solar bandwagon has become
overloaded?

 

Bill



 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Hilt

Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

[Tom Duffy]

Hilton

We have been seeing catastrophic failures with 3C panels here in Panama mostly 
either No-Name or Re-Branded from a discounter in the USA (who shall remain 
nameless) The problems seem to occur within the first three years.

BTW we don't sell any Chinese 3C panels. We have had some luck with Canadian 
Solar

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
[Real-logo-X-195]
Toll Free 888-895-8179
t...@thesolar.biz
Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810
Grid tie sales 888-895-7847
Off Grid sales 888-895-4058
Other Product Sales 888-895-9612
Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253
Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497
Tech Support 888-895-8179
SKYPE:  thesolarbiz

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:09 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

Greetings wrenches,

I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&;

I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling 
his project.

First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so, 
what brands?
Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina, 
Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is "no-name" brands?
Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin film?

And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil fuel 
and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm.

Thanks,

Hilton


--

Hilton Dier III

Renewable Energy Design

Partner, Solar Gain LLC

453 East Hill Rd.

Middlesex, VT 05602
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[RE-wrenches] Defective modules

[Hilton Dier III]

Greetings wrenches,

I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&;


I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about 
canceling his project.


First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if 
so, what brands?
Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers 
(Trina, Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is "no-name" brands?
Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as 
thin film?


And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil 
fuel and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm.


Thanks,

Hilton

--
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602

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