[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island guide request
Wrenches, Can anyone direct me to an online guide to setup and operation of the Sunny Island? I am faced with an existing quad stack SI system with some anomalies in its interaction with a generator, and I suspect that some of its behavior is due to settings and adjustments. I'd also like to understand some of the warning and event log messages - what triggers a message, what it means, and what to do as a result. I'd like a guide that goes into more detail than the Sunny Island manual about these things. Thank you for any suggestions or links. Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries
Hi dan I'm curious why you opted for NiFe vs lithium? Jay Peltz power. On Jul 26, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Dan Fink danbo...@gmail.com wrote: I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them. 1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is shining) . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down! So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot the satellite internet, tv etc. My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: HI Tom, They are considered 1.2v nominal. Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more the voltage is too high for most inverters. The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had a internal pot you could turn up. But heck give it a try and play with it. jay peltz power On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane t...@ecs-solar.com wrote: I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? Sent from my iPad ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries
Hi Jay; Price, proven long-term reliability, no high-tech computerized Battery Management System, and finally lots of questions about NiFe from potential prepper clients. A lot of grid-connected folks are best served by a backup generator, but want to have batteries stored in pristine condition in their vault for doomsday 5-20 years from now. A bank of L-16s even on careful float charge will have significantly degraded on the far side of that time frame. Dry charged FLA batteries these days are really moist charged IE at the factory filled, charged to form the plates, and drained. That only gives you an extra 18 months before damage occurs, maybe 3 years with a strict rehab regime afterwards for a couple weeks (thanks to Rolls/Surrette for that tidbet, and to my buddy at the local ATV/jetski/snowmobile/boat store who has to mix up electrolyte and fill moist-charged batteries and put them out on the shelves).(saves hazmat shipping fees) Another advantage I see on NiFe cells is that you can add another string to the battery bank years down the road.drain and dispose of the electrolyte in the original bank, mix and refill with fresh, and the new string will match the old closely.You can get spare electrolyte powder from the battery mfr packed for long term storage. I made myself a guinea pig on these, but hey, my L-16s were shot after the flood. I'm going to add more PV to help get that 1.65v per cell on a daily basis, and then hopefully add battery #10 back in the string once my PV can maintain that daily, as the inverter/charger refuses to try. Best regards; Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Jay jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi dan I'm curious why you opted for NiFe vs lithium? Jay Peltz power. On Jul 26, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Dan Fink danbo...@gmail.com wrote: I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them. 1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is shining) . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down! So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot the satellite internet, tv etc. My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: HI Tom, They are considered 1.2v nominal. Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more the voltage is too high for most inverters. The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had a internal pot you could turn up. But heck give it a try and play with it. jay peltz power On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane t...@ecs-solar.com wrote: I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? Sent from my iPad ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers
Hi: When deciding on voltage drops and otherwise working out the design of a solar system, one thing that needs careful attention is to make sure that the array voltage does not drop below a level at which the inverter cannot produce full power. This voltage will occur when the inverter is working at full input current such as a hypothetical 3000 W inverter which can handle a maximum of 10 Amps of input current to produce its full rated 3000 Watts (10Amps @ 300 Vdc). At any voltage less than 300 Vdc, the power will be limited by the maximum 10 Amps. For example at 290 Vdc you get 2.9 kW, 280 Vdc you get 2.8kW, and so on. Even if the inverter can operate down to 100 Vdc, you don't want to be anywhere near there, especially not during the midday hours as that will hurt peak power production, a lot. In this case -0.3% loss for every volt below 300Vdc. Identifying this voltage for a particular inverter may not however be straightforward due to wide variety of wording used in specifying ratings. Wording such as, 1. operating voltage range 2. full power operating voltage range 3. MPPT operating voltage range 4. minimum operating voltage 5. minimum MPPT operating voltage 6. rated operating voltage range 7. Rated MPPT operating voltage range 8. starting voltage 9. nominal operating voltage range 10. maximum input current 11. minimum input voltage 12. minimum DC voltage 13. nominal DC input current 14. maximum operating DC input current 15. maximum continuous operating DC input current 17. When looking for the voltage below which you don't want go, look for the following: 1. The maximum operating input current 2. The minimum MPPT operating voltage Then make sure the array can produce at least that much voltage and current when its really hot when the resistance of all the wires is more than at room temperature. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/25/2015 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org You would want to confirm hot temp PV circuit values with chosen Vdrop to ensure the irrelevant value doesn't drop you out of the inverters' operational limit, however. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. From: Chris Mason Sent: 7/25/2015 15:20 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers It should be noted that the NEC recommendations for feeder circuits are to do with acceptable voltages at the load, i.e., you do not want your 208V equipment running on 200V. PV circuits are not feeder circuits, voltage drop is irrelevant. Power loss may be relevant, but only in terms of economic value. If it is preferable to add more PV and lose 10% of the power, as long as there are no issues of heat and potential fire, why shouldn't you be able to make that decision? As PV gets cheaper, replacing cables costing $10,000 to save $10 a year does not make sense. The NEC rules on voltage drop were never designed for PV source circuits. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: Wrenches I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but they take this as a must not exceed instead, I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from Mike Holt Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements [90.5(C)]. The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a performance issue, not a safety issue. Jerry On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Jerry, A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage controller. Have a look at Schneider and
Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries
WrenchesI have had good experiences with these batteries and with the same issues with the magnum on 12 volts, don't seam to have any issues with my 48 volt systems. We did double up the cables to reduce the high load (overdriving) the radians with no issues. It's just the cost, but it should be the last battery you buyJerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Jay jay.pe...@gmail.com Date: 07/27/2015 4:47 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries Hi dan I'm curious why you opted for NiFe vs lithium? JayPeltz power. On Jul 26, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Dan Fink danbo...@gmail.com wrote: I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them.1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is shining) . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down!So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot the satellite internet, tv etc.My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer. Dan FinkBuckville EnergyIREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional~ Small Wind InstallerNABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: HI Tom, They are considered 1.2v nominal. Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more the voltage is too high for most inverters. The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had a internal pot you could turn up. But heck give it a try and play with it. jay peltz power On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane t...@ecs-solar.com wrote: I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? Sent from my iPad ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers
Wrenchesthe VD is 105 VDC into a charge controller, the engineer is looking good at it like it a grid tie running at wide open all the time, he will not listen to sugestions, that's the problem I haveJerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Date: 07/27/2015 5:34 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Hi: When deciding on voltage drops and otherwise working out the design of a solar system, one thing that needs careful attention is to make sure that the array voltage does not drop below a level at which the inverter cannot produce full power. This voltage will occur when the inverter is working at full input current such as a hypothetical 3000 W inverter which can handle a maximum of 10 Amps of input current to produce its full rated 3000 Watts (10Amps @ 300 Vdc). At any voltage less than 300 Vdc, the power will be limited by the maximum 10 Amps. For example at 290 Vdc you get 2.9 kW, 280 Vdc you get 2.8kW, and so on. Even if the inverter can operate down to 100 Vdc, you don't want to be anywhere near there, especially not during the midday hours as that will hurt peak power production, a lot. In this case -0.3% loss for every volt below 300Vdc. Identifying this voltage for a particular inverter may not however be straightforward due to wide variety of wording used in specifying ratings. Wording such as, 1. operating voltage range 2. full power operating voltage range 3. MPPT operating voltage range 4. minimum operating voltage 5. minimum MPPT operating voltage 6. rated operating voltage range 7. Rated MPPT operating voltage range 8. starting voltage 9. nominal operating voltage range 10. maximum input current 11. minimum input voltage 12. minimum DC voltage 13. nominal DC input current 14. maximum operating DC input current 15. maximum continuous operating DC input current 17. When looking for the voltage below which you don't want go, look for the following: 1. The maximum operating input current 2. The minimum MPPT operating voltage Then make sure the array can produce at least that much voltage and current when its really hot when the resistance of all the wires is more than at room temperature. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
