Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[Chris Mason]

Propane generator expert here - certified Generac technician.

Chances are the problem lies with the fuel supply. Your inverter is working
better, taking more power, putting more current into the batteries.
Therefore the generator, which is well within it's rating, is taking more
fuel.
99% of propane generator problems are improperly specified or installed
propane or NatGas supply. Most people don't read the manual, and the
requirements are always more than people realize.
An 8KW propane unit will need a 3/4" line or more to develop full power. If
the fuel is being starved, it will run rough. It will only happen under
load.
Get hold of a manometer and measure the gas pressure at the internal
regulator. You should see a steady 11" WC for propane or 7" WC for NatGas.
Measure under load. If the pressure drops, there's your problem.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Chris Daum  wrote:

>  Dear people:
>
> I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
> of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
> other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
> he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's
> at
> a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
> time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
> generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After
> 3
> hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator
> (and
> hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
> Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
> 406-777-0830 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
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-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question

[jerrysgarage01]

You may want to check the ac voltage with a good "true RMS" meter and see what 
the results are, some (most) new Freq Drives, and soft start drives may have an 
issue with a high RMSJerry


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Roy Butler  
Date: 4/26/2016  4:22 AM  (GMT-10:00) 
To: RE-wrenches  
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question 


Allan,



I have several customers running the Grundfos SQE series on their
modified square wave inverters.

To be clear, those most recent was about 5 years ago, so perhaps
there's been a design change since then.

Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.



On 4/25/2016 11:15 PM, Allan Sindelar
  wrote:



  
  Wrenches,

  Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC
  submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter?

  I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS
  2800-12. The customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging
  an inverter upgrade.

  Thank you,

  Allan

  -- 














  Allan Sindelar

al...@sindelarsolar.com

NABCEP Certified PV
  Installation Professional

  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional

  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician

  Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.

  505 780-2738 cell

  

  
   

  
  

  
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[jerrysgarage01]

ChrisA few questionsAre you drawing from both AC legs from the genny, at max of 
2200 watts per leg then the genny should not have an issue but if you upsized 
the batteries and as stated by Mike the fuel delivery system cant keep up 
because the inverter charge load is higher, steady and for long duration. Can 
you load test the genny at 240 and see if the issue happens with out the 
inverter at all.  When we size a propane tank we like to see at least 75 lbs 
per 3 kw genny depending on air temp, bigger when colder, its all about 
available BTU.Jerry


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Mike Kocsmiersky  
Date: 4/26/2016  12:41 AM  (GMT-10:00) 
To: 'RE-wrenches'  
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems 

Chris,
In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current
(or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior
battery bank.  I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for
fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not
evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset.  This
caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually
would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize.  This doesn't sound like
it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the
longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to
evaporate enough.  May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently
overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and
can't maintain pressure.  May want to check the tank size of propane for the
genset.  (I'm assuming this is LPG).



Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Phone: 413 883-3144 
Spirit Solar
www.SpiritSolar.net



-Original Message-
From: Chris Daum [mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question

[Luke Christy]

Hi Allan,
 just to add to the testimony of others, I have several customers out there 
with 1990s era Trace DR inverters running SQ pumps and they seem to work fine. 

-Luke

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 
CoSEIA Certified PV Installer 
 
Solar Gain Services, LLC
PO Box 531
Monte Vista, CO 81144
sgsrenewab...@gmail.com
719.588.3044
www.sgsrenewables.com

> On Apr 25, 2016, at 21:15, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC submersible pump 
> from a modified square wave inverter?
> I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS 2800-12. The 
> customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging an inverter upgrade.
> Thank you,
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question

[Roy Butler]

  
  
Allan,

I have several customers running the Grundfos SQE series on their
modified square wave inverters.
To be clear, those most recent was about 5 years ago, so perhaps
there's been a design change since then.
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.



On 4/25/2016 11:15 PM, Allan Sindelar
  wrote:


  
  Wrenches,
  Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC
  submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter?
  I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS
  2800-12. The customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging
  an inverter upgrade.
  Thank you,
  Allan
  -- 











  Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV
  Installation Professional
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
  505 780-2738 cell
  
  
   

  
  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

You can tell the grey-beards from younger wrenches…..A square wave is generated 
and modified to act like a sine wave, thus, it is a modified square wave. As I 
see it, in order to deceive the consumer, the term "modified sine wave" was 
created.

Larry

On Apr 26, 2016, at 5:57 AM, Carl Hansen  wrote:

Allen,
 …. I think some folks refer to these inverters as modified square wave.

  Carl
  Hansen Elect.

On 4/25/2016 9:15 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Wrenches,
> Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC submersible pump 
> from a modified square wave inverter?…..


> Thank you,
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
> 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question

[Carl Hansen]

Allen,
  I have a customer who until recently ran her SQ off of a Trace DR2412 
modified sinewave inverter/charger just fine for 6 or more years. I 
think some folks refer to these inverters as modified square wave.


  Carl
  Hansen Elect.

On 4/25/2016 9:15 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC 
submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter?
I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS 2800-12. 
The customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging an inverter 
upgrade.

Thank you,
Allan
--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Chris,
In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current
(or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior
battery bank.  I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for
fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not
evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset.  This
caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually
would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize.  This doesn't sound like
it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the
longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to
evaporate enough.  May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently
overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and
can't maintain pressure.  May want to check the tank size of propane for the
genset.  (I'm assuming this is LPG).



Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Phone: 413 883-3144 
Spirit Solar
www.SpiritSolar.net



-Original Message-
From: Chris Daum [mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com





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