Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof

[jerrysgarage01]

Wrenches
We got one, takes a long time to set up, it works great but it seams either we 
got a 1 story or a high rise. We also have a crane which is a little costly to 
deploy but sure looks cool. Something else we use up to 3 stories is a sizzer 
truck, the whole box lifts up to the height, picked it up from a military 
auction, was a plane loading truck. Works well for OSHA 
Jerry


Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dana Brandt 
 Date:05/26/2016  12:26 PM  (GMT-10:00) 
To: RE-wrenches  
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof 

Hi Wrenches,

I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are people 
using to lift modules to the roof? 

I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work in 
practice. Any experience or advice?

Thanks,

Dana

Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.com
d...@ecotechenergy.com
360.318.7646

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers  wrote:
Hi Wrenches,

 

I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard thought 
on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are various lifts on 
the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or walk them up a ladder 
(sling them over your back). I find that the majority of our competition in the 
Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for residential projects. What is your 
feeling about OSHA compliance of doing this?

 

Best,

 

 

August

415.559.1525


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Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof

[Dana Brandt]

Hi Wrenches,

I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are
people using to lift modules to the roof?

I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd
work in practice. Any experience or advice?

Thanks,

Dana

Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.com
d...@ecotechenergy.com
360.318.7646

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers  wrote:

> Hi Wrenches,
>
>
>
> I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard
> thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are
> various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or
> walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority
> of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for
> residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing
> this?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
>
>
> August
>
> 415.559.1525
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

[Tump]

I believe that generator wire sizing is not the same as theNEC wiring sizing 
power coming from the utility. As the wiring /generator shorts the engine will 
slow there by reducing the output current. IF if IS UL certified, then I see no 
reason NOT to install the unit. You are not running those wires any distance, 
no more then 18” to a disconnect device. 
Large Kohler, Wisperwatt, Onans  units do have the 12 wires from the alternator 
sized at 10 AWG to the breaker.
> On May 26, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Chris Mason  
> wrote:
> 
> I would find a way to load test the generator, let it run under load for four 
> hours. If nothing breaks, you don't need to do anything.
> 
> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Kevin Pegg  > wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
> 
>  
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts on this.
> 
>  
> 
> - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3' long 
> from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free air, but 
> most is contained within the conduit.
> 
> - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A.
> 
> - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full 
> load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that. 
> Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy loads 
> & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max load for 
> hrs at a time.
> 
>  
> 
> The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug.
> 
>  
> 
> The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells me 
> that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the wires 
> myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think have made 
> a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be me who the 
> client is calling if there is an issue.
> 
>  
> 
> Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was either 
> # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm.
> 
>  
> 
> Kevin
> 
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Daniel Young
> Sent: May-25-16 7:24 AM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'  >
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues
> 
>  
> 
> Kevin,
> 
>  
> 
> Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points.
> 
>  
> 
> On the 4AWG wire:
> 
>  
> 
> Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table 
> 310.15(B)(19). It’s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where you 
> might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a generator 
> enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type or similar 
> based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is used.
> 
>  
> 
> Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous 
> (maybe it’s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a 
> generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a generator 
> depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality do you 
> expect more than 120A to be a true “continuous” load on this unit. I don’t 
> know the answer, just worth thinking about.
> 
>  
> 
> Plastic bushings:
> 
>  
> 
> I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL 
> does not force them to, don’t expect them to include it. (Capitalism at 
> work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC 
> bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the end 
> of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing…. I 
> would not do it on a new install, but it’s a useful trick when you walk up on 
> existing mistakes.
> 
>  
> 
> Lug:
> 
>  
> 
> You could continuity test it to see if it’s a good connection, otherwise that 
> strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the manu at 
> the clients expense in my opinion. It’ll work fine for now, but not likely in 
> 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I’d just throw a star washer underneath if 
> possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough.
> 
>  
> 
> So there is a little bitta’ code and a lotta’ opinion.
> 
>  
> 
> With Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Daniel Young,
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
> 
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues
> 
>  
> 
> Wrenches,
> 
>  
> 
> Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette.
> 
>  
> 
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

[August Goers]

All –



Just to cheer you up, this reminds me of client of ours who had 12/3 NM
Romex run between the utility service-drop conductors and weatherhead:



https://goo.gl/photos/m5kDypbXmyPSftnU7



This was a 200 A service and the client had been running his entire house
this way for years!



I would never advocate for under sizing wires but it goes to show that
there are certainly some safety factors in NEC wire sizing.



Best,



August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Chris Mason
*Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2016 8:26 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues



I would find a way to load test the generator, let it run under load for
four hours. If nothing breaks, you don't need to do anything.



On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Kevin Pegg 
wrote:

Hi Daniel,



Appreciate your thoughts on this.



- This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3'
long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free
air, but most is contained within the conduit.

- the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A.

- This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full
load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that.
Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy
loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max
load for hrs at a time.



The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug.



The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells
me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the
wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think
have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be
me who the client is calling if there is an issue.



Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was
either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm.



Kevin



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Young
*Sent:* May-25-16 7:24 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues



Kevin,



Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points.



On the 4AWG wire:



Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table
310.15(B)(19). It’s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where
you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a
generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z
type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C)
wiring is used.



Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous
(maybe it’s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for
a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a
generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In
reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true “continuous” load on this
unit. I don’t know the answer, just worth thinking about.



Plastic bushings:



I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL
does not force them to, don’t expect them to include it. (Capitalism at
work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC
bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the
end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing….
I would not do it on a new install, but it’s a useful trick when you walk
up on existing mistakes.



Lug:



You could continuity test it to see if it’s a good connection, otherwise
that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the
manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It’ll work fine for now, but not
likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I’d just throw a star washer
underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough.



So there is a little bitta’ code and a lotta’ opinion.



With Regards,



Daniel Young,

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues



Wrenches,



Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette.



Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are
outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns
are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit,
and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued.



The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I
do not feel that actual issues have 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

[Chris Mason]

I would find a way to load test the generator, let it run under load for
four hours. If nothing breaks, you don't need to do anything.

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Kevin Pegg 
wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
>
>
>
> Appreciate your thoughts on this.
>
>
>
> - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3'
> long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free
> air, but most is contained within the conduit.
>
> - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A.
>
> - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full
> load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that.
> Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy
> loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max
> load for hrs at a time.
>
>
>
> The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug.
>
>
>
> The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells
> me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the
> wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think
> have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be
> me who the client is calling if there is an issue.
>
>
>
> Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was
> either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm.
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Daniel Young
> *Sent:* May-25-16 7:24 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues
>
>
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points.
>
>
>
> On the 4AWG wire:
>
>
>
> Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table
> 310.15(B)(19). It’s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where
> you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a
> generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z
> type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C)
> wiring is used.
>
>
>
> Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous
> (maybe it’s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for
> a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a
> generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In
> reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true “continuous” load on this
> unit. I don’t know the answer, just worth thinking about.
>
>
>
> Plastic bushings:
>
>
>
> I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL
> does not force them to, don’t expect them to include it. (Capitalism at
> work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC
> bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the
> end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing….
> I would not do it on a new install, but it’s a useful trick when you walk
> up on existing mistakes.
>
>
>
> Lug:
>
>
>
> You could continuity test it to see if it’s a good connection, otherwise
> that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the
> manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It’ll work fine for now, but not
> likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I’d just throw a star washer
> underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough.
>
>
>
> So there is a little bitta’ code and a lotta’ opinion.
>
>
>
> With Regards,
>
>
>
> Daniel Young,
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues
>
>
>
> Wrenches,
>
>
>
> Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette.
>
>
>
> Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are
> outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns
> are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit,
> and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued.
>
>
>
> The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I
> do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care
> what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many
> hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't
> really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted
> alternator.
>
>
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N:
>
>
>
> I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as
>