Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi William, I have had a similar experience here in New Zealand on a FP2 fitted 
with VFXR3024E inverters.  Factory wired with a Mate3.  Ran ok for around 2 
months then random errors with “FX Firmware incompatible” then “FX Firmware OK” 
until eventually the slave inverter shut down with a message on the mate of 
FXRBL which means Boot Load, going back to very basic bootup mode.  It could 
only be corrected by doing a firmware upgrade which would not work via the Mate 
and Hub, had to plug Mate directly into inverter.  Reloaded system config from 
SD card file and all ok.

 

Now, after around 2 weeks, Mate display went blank except for border graphics.  
Supplier, suspecting a possibly faulty mate has sent a replacement and, when 
trying to load system configuration the file which I resaved on leaving last 
time has been scrambled.

 

Still waiting for a resolution but I suspect it is something to do with the 
VFXR’s or possibly the Mate.  Software bug or something.  Solution might be to 
replace VFXR’s with VFX’s but we will have to see what Outback come back with.  
Meantime I have a very irate customer with ½ of the system operating (Master 
inverter only).  System is nearly 3 hours travel one way so popping over to 
reset it when it is likely to randomly shut down again is not an option!  Still 
waiting to hear from Outback if they will cover this with warranty.

 

Bruce Geddes

Freedom Energy Ltd

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Friday, 11 November 2016 5:26 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost

 

Ray:

 

I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the 
password. It does look like some serious glitch. 

 

William


On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff 
themselves.  Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices?



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote:

Colleagues: 

 

I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers.  
The system has been on line for about 6 years.  It got upgraded about 7 months 
ago with 2 Mate3s.

 

About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power.  A 
maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored.  I did not hear 
about the situation for several days.

 

A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the 
telephone to see if we could restart the system.  The system would only run if 
the inverter output breakers were all off.  

 

I examined the system via Optics.  I was very surprised to see that the system 
programming was absolutely scrambled.  This was so much so that even the 
stacking settings were wrong.  For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, 
which we all know will crash any system.  Other settings were also found with 
very random values.

 

This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must 
have been right prior to the outage.  I am completely mystified as to how this 
could have happened.  

 

I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously.  I have not 
heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this 
or anything similar.  I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to 
enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group.

 

Thank you in advance for any input.

 

William Miller






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost

[Ray Walters]

I think the other poster's idea that the cables could have been switched 
is possible.  It could explain the Master getting switched.  I'm 
certainly not saying a complete internal glitch wasn't it either.  We've 
all seen our share of those as well.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 11/10/2016 9:26 PM, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the 
password. It does look like some serious glitch.


William

On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:


It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram 
stuff themselves.  Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote:

Colleagues:

I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge 
controllers.  The system has been on line for about 6 years.  It got 
upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s.


About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without 
power.  A maintenance worker started a generator and power was 
restored.  I did not hear about the situation for several days.


A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me 
over the telephone to see if we could restart the system.  The 
system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off.


I examined the system via Optics.  I was very surprised to see that 
the system programming was absolutely scrambled.  This was so much 
so that even the stacking settings were wrong.  For example, 
inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any 
system.  Other settings were also found with very random values.


This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at 
least must have been right prior to the outage.  I am completely 
mystified as to how this could have happened.


I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously.  I 
have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else 
has experienced this or anything similar.  I'd like to broaden my 
knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share 
any findings with the group.


Thank you in advance for any input.

William Miller


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost

[William Miller]

Ray:

I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the 
password. It does look like some serious glitch. 

William

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
> It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff 
> themselves.  Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices?
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>> On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote:
>> Colleagues:
>> 
>> I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. 
>>  The system has been on line for about 6 years.  It got upgraded about 7 
>> months ago with 2 Mate3s.
>> 
>> About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power.  A 
>> maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored.  I did not 
>> hear about the situation for several days.
>> 
>> A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the 
>> telephone to see if we could restart the system.  The system would only run 
>> if the inverter output breakers were all off.  
>> 
>> I examined the system via Optics.  I was very surprised to   see 
>> that the system programming was absolutely scrambled.  This was so much so 
>> that even the stacking settings were wrong.  For example, inverter 2 was set 
>> as a Master, which we all know will crash any system.  Other settings were 
>> also found with very random values.
>> 
>> This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must 
>> have been right prior to the outage.  I am completely mystified as to how 
>> this could have happened.  
>> 
>> I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously.  I have not 
>> heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced 
>> this or anything similar.  I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this 
>> situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the 
>> group.
>> 
>> Thank you in advance for any input.
>> 
>> William Miller
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Drake]

Electrical noise coming in from the utility side
can also cause an arc fault code.

At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote:

This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.

As for grounding, The array and the shed with
the interconnection point are in the same area.
There are a couple ground rods there, which
everything on the AC side is connected to,Â
including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is
just a #10 ground coming from the array to the inverters.Â
The house is a couple hundred feet away and has
its own grounding electrode system.

Jerry,
The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago),
but it is a good idea to check firmware.
As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types
of things you mentioned, although there
may be a well pump. They also do have a large
water storage tank for heating, but they
say that they have not needed to use it yet this
year. Then there is also the generator...

Thanks for your recommendations.
-Dave



--

Dave Tedeyan
Project Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer
<jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave.
We have many TL-22 in the field and they will
detect faults even when they are normal
contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is
the latest, last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it
may have a patch in there, you can turn off the
feature for testing only and see if you melt
something down but if you do please be on site
as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC
system with contacts, welders, compressors,
anything that has a dry contacts that brakes
under load, this is another place I would look.
Every time we have had a code out it was real
weather from something normal or a wire issue.
Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field
from the 3's to the 24's and as much as I dread
getting a call with this issue I can usually
find the problem and it can be either AC or DC.
Jerry

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan
<dtede...@taitem.com> wrote:
Hi All,Â

Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a
couple inverters keep arc faulting:

-There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
-3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the inverter.
-Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the
inverters are located (indoors)
-Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
-There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
-We interconnect by using piercing taps on the
line side of the generator transfer switch
-There has been only one power outage there
since the system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.

-The arc faults have been happening on both
inverters. Sometimes only one at a time,
sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
-The events have been approximately one a month,
but sometimes more, sometimes less.

-We have already checked every single connection
in the system twice, by two different people.
-We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
-We have replaced all home runs.
-We have replaced both inverters.
-Arc faults are still happening.
-Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.

I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?Â
Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan
Project Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Howie Michaelson]

Sorry, I meant "Dave"...

Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

On Nov 11, 2016 7:33 AM, "Dave Tedeyan"  wrote:

> This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.
>
> As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point
> are in the same area.
> There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
> connected to,
> including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
> from the array to the inverters.
> The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding
> electrode system.
>
> Jerry,
> The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
> check firmware.
> As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
> although there
> may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
> heating, but they
> say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
> the generator...
>
> Thanks for your recommendations.
> -Dave
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Dave.
>> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when
>> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest,
>> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn
>> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if
>> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
>> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
>> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
>> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
>> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
>> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
>> problem and it can be either AC or DC.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
>>> faulting:
>>>
>>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
>>> inverter.
>>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
>>> (indoors)
>>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the
>>> generator transfer switch
>>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
>>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>>>
>>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only
>>> one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
>>> sometimes less.
>>>
>>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
>>> two different people.
>>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>>> -We have replaced all home runs.
>>> -We have replaced both inverters.
>>> -Arc faults are still happening.
>>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>>>
>>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
>>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *--*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>>> *Project Engineer*
>>>
>>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
>>> www.taitem.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Howie Michaelson]

Hi Dane,
It was a few years ago, but I believe we had an arc fault with the same
type of array setup (although I'm wondering now if they were -12s - I'm
pretty sure they were -22s). After checking everything twice, we ran 1
string at a time and still got the arc fault. After badgering tech support
for too long, they had us run a couple of perfunctory tests and finally
agreed to replace them. Problems gone. I believe this is an undocumented
hardware out firmware problem with some of these. I assume you've been
dealing with sma on this, just thought I'd mention this...

Howie
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

On Nov 11, 2016 7:33 AM, "Dave Tedeyan"  wrote:

> This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.
>
> As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point
> are in the same area.
> There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
> connected to,
> including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
> from the array to the inverters.
> The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding
> electrode system.
>
> Jerry,
> The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
> check firmware.
> As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
> although there
> may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
> heating, but they
> say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
> the generator...
>
> Thanks for your recommendations.
> -Dave
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Dave.
>> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when
>> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest,
>> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn
>> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if
>> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
>> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
>> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
>> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
>> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
>> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
>> problem and it can be either AC or DC.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
>>> faulting:
>>>
>>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
>>> inverter.
>>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
>>> (indoors)
>>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the
>>> generator transfer switch
>>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
>>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>>>
>>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only
>>> one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
>>> sometimes less.
>>>
>>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
>>> two different people.
>>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>>> -We have replaced all home runs.
>>> -We have replaced both inverters.
>>> -Arc faults are still happening.
>>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>>>
>>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
>>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *--*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>>> *Project Engineer*
>>>
>>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
>>> www.taitem.com
>>>
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>> _

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Dave Tedeyan]

This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.

As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point are
in the same area.
There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
connected to,
including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
from the array to the inverters.
The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding electrode
system.

Jerry,
The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
check firmware.
As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
although there
may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
heating, but they
say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
the generator...

Thanks for your recommendations.
-Dave



*--*


*Dave Tedeyan*
*Project Engineer*

*Taitem Engineering, PC*
109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Dave.
> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they
> are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last
> I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off
> the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you
> do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
> problem and it can be either AC or DC.
> Jerry
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
>> faulting:
>>
>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
>> inverter.
>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
>> (indoors)
>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
>> transfer switch
>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>>
>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
>> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
>> sometimes less.
>>
>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
>> two different people.
>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>> -We have replaced all home runs.
>> -We have replaced both inverters.
>> -Arc faults are still happening.
>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>>
>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>>
>> Thanks for your help,
>> Dave
>>
>> *--*
>>
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>> *Project Engineer*
>>
>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
>> www.taitem.com
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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