Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
We have been doing testing on the Blue Ion over the last several months, we
have been using PV, back up grid connected charger, we have CT's on DC in,
PV in, Charger in, and Load out, some days we push to three cycles a day,
other days 1/2 cycle. The Blue Ion BMU has done well keeping everything in
control including a relay for the charger. Eguage has done all the
monitoring and has some impressive data.
Jerry

On Feb 20, 2018 6:02 AM, "Kirpal"  wrote:

> Larryyes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't
> have the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to
> be accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on the
> books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real
> world matches the lab testsI don't have a copy of their warranty but it
> is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  70%
> remaining after 15 years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From what
> I have seen they are a strong off grid option.  Could be one of the last
> battery banks some of our customers ever buy.  The visibility into cycle
> count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour
> meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time.  I am looking forward to
> the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead!
>
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
> la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Kirpal,
>>
>> “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of
>> discharge…”
>> I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real
>> cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000
>> cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch.
>> Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty?
>>
>>
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal  wrote:
>>
>> Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off
>> grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters.  They are rated
>> at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and
>> can be monitored remotely.  The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are
>> made by Sony.
>> The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very
>> good feedback from local installers.
>> One more option for the tool bag.
>> Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid
>> state relay into the Radian.   So they are now providing some guidance on
>> this as of just recently.  I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode
>> when the grid does come back around.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> Oregon LRT#25
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Oregon Solarworks LLC
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>> 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings Wrenches;
>>>
>>> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will
>>> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to
>>> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is
>>> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with
>>> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the
>>> Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has
>>> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages?
>>>
>>> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum
>>> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like
>>> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and
>>> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited
>>> charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have
>>> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We feel this
>>> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its
>>> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency.
>>>
>>> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted
>>> territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be
>>> functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries.  We
>>> use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not
>>> feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ray Walters
>>>
>>> Remote Solar
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:

Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Lee Bristol]

Looks like your choice of LiFe Blue is a good one!

Lee Bristol
Executive Director
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

Global Solace Inc
20530 Beallsville Road
Beallsville, MD 20839
(301) 972-8672
(240) 479-1510 (c)
lee.bris...@globalsolace.org
www.globalsolace.org

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Ray  wrote:

> Greetings Wrenches;
>
> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will
> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to
> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is
> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with
> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the
> Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has
> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages?
>
> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum
> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like
> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and
> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited
> charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have
> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We feel this
> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its
> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency.
>
> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory.
> We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in
> 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries.  We use HUP
> batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible
> because of their size and maintenance requirements.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Test data is almost as important as will the company will still be there!
That is why I was unhappy that LG Chem (huge company) has decided not to
be a player for Offgrid. Oh well!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Test data is important. If you check out most Li battery brands, they copy
> each other: “2000 cycles with 80% remaining.” Like Clara Peller said
> in 1984, “ Where’s the beef?”
>
> One brand of Li battery that we sell, LiFeBlue, has published actual test
> data for their cells (Topband). At 1C rate and 100% DoD, they produced
> over 2800 cycles and had 83% remaining capacity. Extrapolate to 8000
> cycles and that would mean 48.5% remaining capacity if degradation
> remained linear.  However, we are in fantasy land here due to the unknown
> affects of battery aging on one hand and the fact that no one will use a
> battery like that on the other. Besides, in a decade or so, will Li-ion
> battery cost make lead batteries a relic?
>
> IMO, lead is dead…or at least dying…slowly.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Kirpal  wrote:
>
> Larryyes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't
> have the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to
> be accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on
> the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the
> real world matches the lab testsI don't have a copy of their warranty
> but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,
> 70% remaining after 15 years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From
> what I have seen they are a strong off grid option.  Could be one of the
> last battery banks some of our customers ever buy.  The visibility into
> cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp
> hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time.  I am looking
> forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead!
>
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com 
> 541-299-0402___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
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>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Test data is important. If you check out most Li battery brands, they copy each 
other: “2000 cycles with 80% remaining.” Like Clara Peller said in 1984, “ 
Where’s the beef?”

One brand of Li battery that we sell, LiFeBlue, has published actual test data 
for their cells (Topband). At 1C rate and 100% DoD, they produced over 2800 
cycles and had 83% remaining capacity. Extrapolate to 8000 cycles and that 
would mean 48.5% remaining capacity if degradation remained linear.  However, 
we are in fantasy land here due to the unknown affects of battery aging on one 
hand and the fact that no one will use a battery like that on the other. 
Besides, in a decade or so, will Li-ion battery cost make lead batteries a 
relic?

IMO, lead is dead…or at least dying…slowly. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Feb 20, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Kirpal  wrote:

Larryyes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't have 
the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to be 
accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books 
including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world 
matches the lab testsI don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 
years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  70% remaining after 15 
years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From what I have seen they are a 
strong off grid option.  Could be one of the last battery banks some of our 
customers ever buy.  The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is 
refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy 
over time.  I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the 
years ahead! 


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com 
541-299-0402___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[toddcory]

" I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! 
"

i gotta reply (off list) to this. as i have said before, i LOVE my flooded lead 
calcium wet cells. no, they aren't sexy li-ons, but they are proven technology 
for my grid-tied with battery backup application. this is what the telecom and 
industrial hydro plants have been using for ever.

i should easily get 20+ years out of these. (the used set i got from our hydro 
plant went 30). i eq every 6 months, i add water (about 20 ml/ cell) every 
other year. their self discharge is around 1 kWh/month and they just sit there 
waiting for an outage. the only issue is these are not designed for a lot of 
cycling, which in a grid tied application they won't be doing much of. our grid 
outages are just a couple of times a year, usually during the kick-ass winter 
storms we (used to) get.


i guess i am an old fart who doesn't always think newer and more high tech is 
better and i hope to still be able to get another set of these in ~20 years... 
if i am still alive! :)
 
todd
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 8:02am, "Kirpal"  said:



Larryyes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't have 
the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to be 
accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books 
including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world 
matches the lab testsI don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 
years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  70% remaining after 15 
years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From what I have seen they are a 
strong off grid option.  Could be one of the last battery banks some of our 
customers ever buy.  The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is 
refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy 
over time.  I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the 
years ahead! 









Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
[ www.oregonsolarworks.com ]( http://www.oregonsolarworks.com )
541-299-0402

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <[ 
la...@starlightsolar.com ]( mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com )> wrote:

Hi Kirpal,
 
“...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…” 
I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real cycle 
life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 cycles at 80% 
DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. Do you have any 
information about testing or a copy of their warranty?





Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal <[ solarwo...@gmail.com ]( 
mailto:solarwo...@gmail.com )> wrote:

Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off grid 
and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters.  They are rated at 8000 
cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and can be 
monitored remotely.  The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are made by Sony.
The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good 
feedback from local installers. 
One more option for the tool bag.  
Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid state 
relay into the Radian.   So they are now providing some guidance on this as of 
just recently.  I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode when the grid 
does come back around. 









Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
[ www.oregonsolarworks.com ]( http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/ )
[ 541-299-0402 ]( tel:(541)%20299-0402 )

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray <[ r...@solarray.com ]( 
mailto:r...@solarray.com )> wrote:
Greetings Wrenches;

 We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will 
eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to operate 
reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is everyone's 
experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with the regular 
Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the Storedge is not 
a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge 
in longer term outages?

 Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum inverters 
with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like Simpliphi and 
LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and allow us to use more 
traditional off grid designs, but also have limited charge and discharge 
current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have had to reduce the 
storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable 
considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Daniel Young]

Dave,

Do you have a document that indicates the LG Chem is not warrantied when in
off-grid use? I've been looking for this exact document with no luck. Also
you stated the 48V is not covered, would that also mean the 400V versions is
also not covered?

I have a client that is trying to specify components for an off grid system,
because his online research says that those are the products he wants. Never
a good sign, but we're used to it here with a lot of retired professors, you
just have to take some time to show them your reasons for not doing what
they want and they usually come around.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 2:46 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

LG has decided not to allow their 48V batteries to be used for offgrid.
The 400V LG and Solar edge is too small to be useful for offgrid in my
opinion and no warranty.

I would add Discover battery to your LFP list. They communicate by canbus
and Xanbus to Schneider XW and CSW gear.

It is too bad about LG (or Tesla) as they were light and not too expensive
Lithium type NMC chemistry.

The other LFP Chemistry is much heavier and around $1,000 a usable KWH, or
4 times flooded LA. A hard sell at this time.

I still am running the LG RESU10 XW power system and I attached a screen
shot of how nice the Engineers at Schneider did making a simple power
display with all the Offgrid data. I left out the Generator display as we do
not need one here in the California Sierras.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Greetings Wrenches;
>
> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will 
> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to 
> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What 
> is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've 
> worked with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, 
> but I've heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are 
> the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages?
>
> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum 
> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, 
> like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower 
> cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also 
> have limited charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost 
> effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to 
> lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to 
> be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency.
>
> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted 
> territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to 
> not be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid 
> batteries.  We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, 
> but these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance
requirements.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Kirpal]

Larryyes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't
have the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to
be accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on the
books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real
world matches the lab testsI don't have a copy of their warranty but it
is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  70%
remaining after 15 years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From what
I have seen they are a strong off grid option.  Could be one of the last
battery banks some of our customers ever buy.  The visibility into cycle
count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour
meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time.  I am looking forward to
the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead!


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> Hi Kirpal,
>
> “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…”
> I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real
> cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000
> cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch.
> Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty?
>
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal  wrote:
>
> Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off
> grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters.  They are rated
> at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and
> can be monitored remotely.  The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are
> made by Sony.
> The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good
> feedback from local installers.
> One more option for the tool bag.
> Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid
> state relay into the Radian.   So they are now providing some guidance on
> this as of just recently.  I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode
> when the grid does come back around.
>
>
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray  wrote:
>
>> Greetings Wrenches;
>>
>> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will
>> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to
>> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is
>> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with
>> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the
>> Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has
>> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages?
>>
>> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum
>> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like
>> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and
>> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited
>> charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have
>> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We feel this
>> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its
>> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency.
>>
>> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted
>> territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be
>> functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries.  We
>> use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not
>> feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ray Walters
>>
>> Remote Solar
>>
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