Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



EVs apparently have their own problems with metering:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/



William





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2024 9:52 AM
*To:* William Miller
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



This isn't an acceptable response that I can give to people spending tens
of thousands of dollars on batteries. These clients roll into their garage
and their EV tells them how many miles are left (state of charge,
effectively). If it can be done in an EV, it's unacceptable to resign
ourselves as solar professionals to tell clients there is no reasonably
accurate way estimate state of charge of a backup battery, which is based
on the same technology as an EV battery.



I have seen the "elasticity" of SOC reading you mentioned. It's just
unacceptable in this day and age. We need to demand better from the
manufacturers. Clients will be okay with some degree of uncertainty, but we
can't have a fuel gauge bouncing all over the place.



-end of rant-



Jason





On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 11:51 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
inaccurate.



Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line
that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The
SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to
about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?



In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes
concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the
batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.





[image: SOC][image: VDC]



This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
the battery manufacturer’s engineers.



It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining
battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to
watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you
can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I
like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system
examines battery voltage over time.



I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
suffer for it.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter
mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based
meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick
and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new
Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.



They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

This isn't an acceptable response that I can give to people spending tens
of thousands of dollars on batteries. These clients roll into their garage
and their EV tells them how many miles are left (state of charge,
effectively). If it can be done in an EV, it's unacceptable to resign
ourselves as solar professionals to tell clients there is no reasonably
accurate way estimate state of charge of a backup battery, which is based
on the same technology as an EV battery.

I have seen the "elasticity" of SOC reading you mentioned. It's just
unacceptable in this day and age. We need to demand better from the
manufacturers. Clients will be okay with some degree of uncertainty, but we
can't have a fuel gauge bouncing all over the place.

-end of rant-

Jason


On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 11:51 AM William Miller 
wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
> is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
> inaccurate.
>
>
>
> Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph
> line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.
> The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20%
> to about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
> that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?
>
>
>
> In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and
> becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates
> the batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: SOC][image: VDC]
>
>
>
> This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
> example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
> but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
> lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
> but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
> the battery manufacturer’s engineers.
>
>
>
> It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of
> ascertaining battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my
> clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are
> elastic.  If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better.
> This is why I like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good
> AGS system examines battery voltage over time.
>
>
>
> I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
> reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
> suffer for it.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark
>
>
>
> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired
> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage
> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a
> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their
> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.
>
>
>
> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
> see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
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[RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud

[Lou Russo via RE-wrenches]

Aloha All,

I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider products,
Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in Insight Cloud.
Both systems are experiencing communications issues with Insight Cloud and
a bit on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way.

Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with Insight
Cloud or the Xanbus recently?
Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem.

I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call instructions.
All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet speeds confirmed to be
good, system set back to system defaults and reprogrammed, etc...

Thanks for your time.

Aloha,

Lou Russo
Owner
l...@spreesolarsystems.com
808 345 6762
Spree Solar Systems LLC
CT-34322
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
inaccurate.



Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line
that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The
SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to
about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?



In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes
concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the
batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.





[image: SOC][image: VDC]



This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
the battery manufacturer’s engineers.



It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining
battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to
watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you
can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I
like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system
examines battery voltage over time.



I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
suffer for it.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter
mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based
meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick
and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new
Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.



They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group


image002.emz
Description: Binary data


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Description: Binary data
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

I have done the cheap tablet route in the same application. Just install a
browser extension to auto refresh the So-ark app screen at an interval of
your choosing. All browsers have add-ons which do it.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:33 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state of
> charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going to lead
> to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping the Sol-Ark
> could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external display. I'm
> leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal because the
> Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be used to display
> the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose I could use a web
> browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't really what I had in
> mind.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart
>> engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid
>> system back in the day.
>>
>> Christopher
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Cheap tablet mounted to the wall?
>>>
>>> -Glenn
>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>>
>>> -- Original message--
>>> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>>> *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM
>>> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>>> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski;
>>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark
>>>
>>> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired
>>> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage
>>> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a
>>> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their
>>> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.
>>>
>>> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they
>>> can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
>>> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
>>> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>> ___
>>>
>> ___
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-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state of
charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going to lead
to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping the Sol-Ark
could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external display. I'm
leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal because the
Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be used to display
the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose I could use a web
browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't really what I had in
mind.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart
> engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid
> system back in the day.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Cheap tablet mounted to the wall?
>>
>> -Glenn
>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>
>> -- Original message--
>> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>> *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM
>> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski;
>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark
>>
>> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired
>> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage
>> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a
>> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their
>> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.
>>
>> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they
>> can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
>> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
>> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

Jason,
  I have found that the TriMetric meter is still somewhat useful and as
with lead acid batteries, still recommend not trusting the SOC.  My
trimetric with no setting changes is
still reading SOC about as unreliable as with lead acid but I use the
voltage readings combined with a printout of a graph of actual voltages
thru the range of full to LBCO
If you don't have data from this customers system, I suspect that a chart
from any similar sized LFP battery would be close enough. I have Fortress
eflex batteries and the Guardian
for remote monitoring of the batteries.  I use it a lot but my wife always
keeps a hawk eye on the Trimetric as we manually start our backup
generator.  The mid range voltages are
plus or minus 20% but at the low end start to change more quickly with
about a 3 hour window to start the generator before LBCO.

John Blittersdorf
offgridvermont.com

On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 10:30 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired
> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage
> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a
> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their
> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.
>
> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
> see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
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> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches]

Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart
engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid
system back in the day.

Christopher

On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Cheap tablet mounted to the wall?
>
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski;
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark
>
> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired
> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage
> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a
> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their
> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.
>
> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
> see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
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"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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