Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

I would challenge that inspector's assumption.  It starts becoming 
precedent if you don't.  I have challenged many rulings, and have lived 
to tell the tale.  There's a process and you just politely go through 
the process.  Often just mentioning that I will challenge a particular 
assumption like "lead acid batteries aren't allowed", will get them to 
back down on the spot.  Getting solar trade organizations on your side 
to help with the process can add much needed weight.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/17/2024 2:26 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote:
Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not 
needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid 
in IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL 
residential ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility 
interconnect, must be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC 
says so.


As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid 
side; as far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not 
intended or proceed for residential off-grid use.


Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to
9540 or 1973...    we are still trying to work out the kinks of
these UL codes.   This what happens when people try to blanket fix
a problem with one technology and apply it across the board
without a full understanding of the different chemistries that are
out there.



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
How are lead batteries dealing with this?

thanks
jay


On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

Chris;

I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all
the same reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much
trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid for now.  I missed
the acid burned jeans, its a "look".

Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid
battery at 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same
thing? At least lead acid can be recovered to some extent. 
I'm not married to either platform, I just want to spend my
customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after
having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead
acid is back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations
need to be replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important
issues:
1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.

I think we're close, but definitely not there.

Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation
needs to evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other
Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're
being forced to comply with all the same regulations as the
less stable, more energy dense chemistries.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:

Howie,

The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same
manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all
make sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress
has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing
a significant amount of programming and additional
integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring
platform.

Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4.
The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I
have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment
thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they
watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks
free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off
completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But
with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t
be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel
differently about Fortress Power and although they have been
a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe
that they are well intentioned and that their products and
business are solid.

There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I
will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent
issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dan Fink via RE-wrenches]

Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not
needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid in
IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL residential
ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility interconnect, must
be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC says so.

As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid side; as
far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not intended or
proceed for residential off-grid use.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342




On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or
> 1973...we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes.
>  This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one
> technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of
> the different chemistries that are out there.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
>> How are lead batteries dealing with this?
>>
>> thanks
>> jay
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Chris;
>>
>> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
>> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading
>> back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a
>> "look".
>>
>> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
>> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid
>> can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I
>> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and
>> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is
>> back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced,
>> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
>> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
>> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
>>
>> I think we're close, but definitely not there.
>>
>> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
>> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4
>> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the
>> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Howie,
>>
>> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
>> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
>> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
>> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
>> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.
>>
>> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
>> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
>> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
>> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
>> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
>> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
>> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
>> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
>> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
>> intentioned and that their products and business are solid.
>>
>> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
>> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
>> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
>> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
>> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
>> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
>> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
>> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
>> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
>> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
>> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
>> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
>> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.
>>
>> Kindly,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or
1973...we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes.
 This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one
technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of
the different chemistries that are out there.



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
> How are lead batteries dealing with this?
>
> thanks
> jay
>
> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Chris;
>
> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading
> back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a
> "look".
>
> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid
> can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I
> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and
> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is
> back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced,
> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
>
> I think we're close, but definitely not there.
>
> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4
> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the
> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Howie,
>
> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.
>
> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
> intentioned and that their products and business are solid.
>
> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.
>
> Kindly,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
>> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
>> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
>> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
>> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
>> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
>> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
>> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
>> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
>> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
>> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[jay via RE-wrenches]

A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.  
How are lead batteries dealing with this? 

thanks
jay

> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Chris;
> 
> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same reasons 
> you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading back to 
> lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a "look". 
> 
> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 16 
> v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid can be 
> recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I just want to 
> spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after having 
> both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is back.  Maybe 
> when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, LFP will have 
> solved 2 very important issues:
> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.  
> 
> I think we're close, but definitely not there.  
> 
> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to evolve 
> to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4 is 
> inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the same 
> regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. 
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 
> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> Howie,
>> 
>> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, 
>> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for 
>> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this 
>> unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional 
>> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. 
>> 
>> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was 
>> chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has 
>> called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because 
>> they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air 
>> conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in 
>> their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, 
>> I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel 
>> differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little 
>> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well 
>> intentioned and that their products and business are solid. 
>> 
>> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to 
>> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell 
>> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid 
>> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly 
>> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware 
>> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m 
>> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from 
>> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those 
>> phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO 
>> monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill 
>> of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable 
>> improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, 
>> the truck rolls a lot less. 
>> 
>> Kindly,
>> 
>> Chris 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
>> > > wrote:
>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is 
>> a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be 
>> important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but 
>> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed 
>> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently 
>> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did 
>> not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had 
>> already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our 
>> county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system 
>> that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the 
>> altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so 
>> much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
>> 
>> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the 
>> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said 
>> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to 
>> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Becareful with the EG4s and  AGMs.   Last I checked the EG4s couldn't be
properly programmed to charge at a high enough voltage to properly charge
some of the heavier plated AGM.   Surrette and Full river AGMs need to be
charged at 58.8 temp compensated to -4mv/deg/c...

The EG4s like the Sol Arks and a ton of the Hybrid inverters aren't really
made to charge lead batteries in general... some you can make work, many
you can't.

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 10:06 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Surrette and Full river AGM's  Been berry berry good to me!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I used to be Lead AGM for Off-grid; I used the Pure Lead Thin Plate for an
install 4 years ago from AltE, and it is still working fine.  I believe the
LiFe is the battery for off-grid and the trick is to find the correct BMS,

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 11:43 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
> (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
> at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
> with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
> certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
> of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
> tech support.
>
> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Chris;

I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same 
reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm 
heading back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its 
a "look".


Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 
16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid 
can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I 
just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, 
and after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead 
acid is back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be 
replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:

1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.

I think we're close, but definitely not there.

Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to 
evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  
LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with 
all the same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:

Howie,

The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same 
manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make 
sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed 
from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of 
programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to 
their monitoring platform.


Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX 
line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed 
paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and 
want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where 
unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 
off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with 
the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if 
they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress 
Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter 
market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their 
products and business are solid.


There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree 
to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and 
cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid 
applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in 
strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary 
firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault 
Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we 
came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 
volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my 
pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of 
dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that 
I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made 
for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot 
less.


Kindly,

Chris






On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in
general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those
listings may not be important to various DIY folks of
varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for
my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are
not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted
Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did
not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
client had already purchased an entire rack of them before
consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk
recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection.
Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings
on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much,
limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)

Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc
etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing
certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed
me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a
listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can
use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and
also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirementsbut from
my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540.
When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating
with me.

I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

I second using the 48v to 12 v DC DC converter.  I've had success with 
that, and avoided the issues Jeremy mentioned.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/17/2024 9:35 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote:
I powered a MidNite LSOB transmitter from a Classic AUX, though the 
receivers didn't work with the Classic. The Classic is limited to 
200ma output and the Tigo and APS transmitters are rated at up to 
800ma input, so it might overload the Classic AUX output if they 
really do draw that much.


I tested an APS RSD system recently with a Classic and it did not work 
well. I believe that the Tigo transmitter is very similar since the 
APS devices say "licensed by Tigo" on them, So, the Tigo RSD devices 
may not work well with a Classic either.


What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter 
to power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the 
one I recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 
    
I never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS 
devices.


With a Classic in the system I've had to use the FireRaptor RSD 
devices. If you can get approval or have older modules, you might be 
able to follow the FireRaptor instructions and use 2 modules in series 
for each FireRaptor. You do still have to have a way to disconnect the 
PV output circuit from the Classic in order to make that circuit dead 
from the Classic end of the circuit. I did that by putting an 
MNPV6-disco on the power shed which disconnects the PV output circuit 
as well as the 24VDC to the FireRaptors. And, I am powering my 
FireRaptors at 15VDC and it works fine.


Brad Bassett, ret.




On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 6:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo
Rapid Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ? Specifically
using the 12v Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of
relying on the inverter AC output to do this.

Think of this scenario.  Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF,
no PV to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge
batteries.


Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St.
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid

[bob--- via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jeremy...

The Classic AUX outputs will put out about 13 volts and allow up to 
about 200 mA maximum.
That might be enough to power the transmitter. That is only about 2.5 
watts so might not work

directly.

boB

Docked at Trinidad/Tobago today.  Great sun here.  Have only seen one PV 
module on this cruise so far.



On 2/16/2024 10:46 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote:

Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid 
Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ?  Specifically using the 12v Aux 
output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter AC 
output to do this.

Think of this scenario.  Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV to re 
charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries.


Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St.
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:



I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.



I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
could be obtained remotely for better analysis.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment



I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.

There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?

As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.

What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake



---





On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over



On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi All,



I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).



My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm
not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery,
but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI
batteries are certainly eye-catching.



I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Surrette and Full river AGM's  Been berry berry good to me!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the 
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there 
are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the 
cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to 
accomplish.


There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new 
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?


As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, 
especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, 
especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality 
isn't what it used to be.


What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake

---

On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away 
from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar 
suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY 
market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. 
However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see 
that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the 
Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I 
have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 
1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't 
have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is 
quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, 
but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or 
the EG4).


My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 
inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current 
take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality 
of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 
LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the 
Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about 
the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly 
smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly 
eye-catching.


I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the 
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues 
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated 
units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is 
so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option 
to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the 
other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut 
down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting 
process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't 
seen that problem" responses from tech support.


I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so 
I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight.


Thanks,

Howie Michaelson

Sun Catcher ___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches]

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there
are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the
cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to
accomplish. 


There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? 


As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club,
especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries,
especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality
isn't what it used to be. 

What is the best AGM battery these days? 

Thanks, 

Drake 


---

On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:


We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer 
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We 
had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and 
lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or 
replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to 
remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe 
donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed 
loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, 
despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but 
we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, 
there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. 
I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then 
ten
years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over 


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote: 

Hi All, 

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). 

My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.  

I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support.  

I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. 

Thanks, 

Howie Michaelson 


Sun Catcher ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid

[Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches]

I powered a MidNite LSOB transmitter from a Classic AUX, though the
receivers didn't work with the Classic. The Classic is limited to 200ma
output and the Tigo and APS transmitters are rated at up to 800ma input, so
it might overload the Classic AUX output if they really do draw that much.

I tested an APS RSD system recently with a Classic and it did not work
well. I believe that the Tigo transmitter is very similar since the APS
devices say "licensed by Tigo" on them, So, the Tigo RSD devices may not
work well with a Classic either.

What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to
power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I
recommended if it's still available:  mean-well/ddr30l12
I
never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices.

With a Classic in the system I've had to use the FireRaptor RSD devices. If
you can get approval or have older modules, you might be able to follow the
FireRaptor instructions and use 2 modules in series for each FireRaptor.
You do still have to have a way to disconnect the PV output circuit from
the Classic in order to make that circuit dead from the Classic end of the
circuit. I did that by putting an MNPV6-disco on the power shed which
disconnects the PV output circuit as well as the 24VDC to the FireRaptors.
And, I am powering my FireRaptors at 15VDC and it works fine.

Brad Bassett, ret.




On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 6:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid
> Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ?  Specifically using the 12v
> Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter
> AC output to do this.
>
> Think of this scenario.  Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV
> to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries.
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St.
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

fortress is making improvements to their firmware for sure. The fortress envy 12 has generator warmup/cool down which is a really important feature  IMO. The eg4 not. Nor does the Deye sol ark. JayOn Feb 16, 2024, at 8:48 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches  wrote:Howie,The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their products and business are solid. There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. Kindly,Chris On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches  wrote:The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me.I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting both AHJs and manufacturers. Dan FinkOwner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLCIREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind InstallationNABCEP Certified PV System InspectorNABCEP PV Associatedanbo...@gmail.com970-672-4342


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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Beyond the listing issues, there are also the NFPA 855 maximum energy
storage limitations to consider that battery manufacturers and distributors
are not considering in their marketing, leading consumers to conclusions
that won't work. I have a client who purchased three full racks of EG4 LL
as a kit and intended to put them in a garage. That's 5.12kWh x 3 x 6 =
92.16 kWh. That exceeds the 80kWh limit. I had to break the news and tell
them to return three of the batteries.

It seems pretty strange for Tesla to be putting out a 13.5kWh Powerwall 3
(13.5 x 3 > 40kWh and 13.5 x 6 > 80kWh). The EG4 PowerPro at 14.3kWh
suffers from the same capacity issues. At least Enphase has its head out of
the sand and offers options at precisely 40kWh and 80kWh capacity ratings.

Manufacturers seem to have a cavalier attitude toward these issues and make
it the designer/installer's issue to deal with. Meanwhile, they are losing
sales when they make a battery that puts them at 42.9kWh for a 3-pack.
Strange...

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 9:34 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I
> like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
>
> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the
> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said
> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
> requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
> communicating with me.
>
> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
> both AHJs and manufacturers.
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>>
>>
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