Re: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

William,

I am sure that I am not the only one on the list that appreciates your
willingness to share your experience, well thought out analysis, and
solutions.  As always, thank you for your insights and ideas. And thanks
for taking the time to highlight your positive interactions with Fortress.

I too have had generally good experience with Fortress's support, which is
no small part of why I've chosen to install many eVault Max cabinets,
particularly for off grid systems. This is also,  in part, why I chose to
try their Envy inverter in my off-grid house that currently has an older
1300 ah lead acid battery bank (whenever I have the opportunity to try new
to me equipment in my own place, I do so).

I have used Sol-Ark in many installs, and have been generally pleased with
them, but am growing weary of firmware updates that cause problems and
errors between disparate brands. This issue has only grown more critical
and troublesome with the advent of closed loop communications between
hybrid inverters and Lithium BMSs.

So I was anxious to try the Envy,  which is promoted as working with many
Lithium batteries in closed loop, as well as Lead acid, both on and off
grid. I should have done more research before buying it for use in this
setting.

In short,  in my opinion, the Envy is woefully inadequate for use with lead
acid batteries. The programming and capabilities for use with a Lead Acid
battery bank are on the verge of useless. And regrettably, in trying to
understand how to set it up and dealing with what turned out to be serious
shortcomings, talking with their support for many hours over several calls
about this, was even more abysmal.  I was basically  told that I should not
use the Envy with L-A  batteries, it wasn't  designed for such use, and if
i did so, that was at my own peril (not their exact words). This inspite of
their sales team and advertising saying otherwise. It was one of the worst
support  interactions I've  had since talking with Xantrex (about issues
with their TM500 meter interfering with the C40's functionality) 20 years
ago. This was not the experience I was hoping for.

I don't typically bad mouth a company here, especially one that I've
enjoyed good results with. My preference is to highlight
companies/equipment that have worked well for me. However, I have made
multiple attempts to email their support team, their sales team and their
higher level tech,  with absolutely no response.  Crickets. Now I am
frustrated, hence this missive.

I will be replacing the Envy with another more appropriately designed
inverter. Hopefully, I will be able to do something useful with it.

Howie Michaelson


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 10:14 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of
> Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled
> system.  If not, here
> 
> is the case study.
>
>
>
> The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to
> short days and cloudy weather.  There has not been enough sunshine to cause
> a recurrence.  Now that spring has sprung the problem is back.
>
>
>
> I did come up with a work-around:  I installed a contactor to disconnect
> the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%.  This works but it does waste
> some solar capability.
>
>
>
> I have been working with Fortress on the issue.  They have been in touch
> and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to
> find a solution.  Most important they have admitted the problem exists.
>
>
>
> To me this is very refreshing.  This makes me want to use more Fortress
> products and sing their praises.  I think my fellow wrenches would want to
> know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to
> use, which is the reason for this post.
>
>
>
> Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress.
>
>
>
> Hi William,
>
>
>
> Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still
> actively working on this case to provide you with a solution.
>
>
>
> We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve
> the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in
> discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility
> issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I
> unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your patience.
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Galen Gennaria
>
>
>
> I will update the case study when new developments occur.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Do you have the 42-48 or the newer 55-48, l have used both in off grid AC
Coupled systems with no issues, inverters freq shift and self power down. I
did eliminate the battery temp sensor and use a resistor in its place to
stabilize the charge rate.
Can you again call out the issue you are having with the inverters as this
might help answer or at least even resemble issue we might also be seeing.
Fun times

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 7:14 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of
> Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled
> system.  If not, here
> 
> is the case study.
>
>
>
> The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to
> short days and cloudy weather.  There has not been enough sunshine to cause
> a recurrence.  Now that spring has sprung the problem is back.
>
>
>
> I did come up with a work-around:  I installed a contactor to disconnect
> the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%.  This works but it does waste
> some solar capability.
>
>
>
> I have been working with Fortress on the issue.  They have been in touch
> and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to
> find a solution.  Most important they have admitted the problem exists.
>
>
>
> To me this is very refreshing.  This makes me want to use more Fortress
> products and sing their praises.  I think my fellow wrenches would want to
> know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to
> use, which is the reason for this post.
>
>
>
> Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress.
>
>
>
> Hi William,
>
>
>
> Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still
> actively working on this case to provide you with a solution.
>
>
>
> We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve
> the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in
> discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility
> issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I
> unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your patience.
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Galen Gennaria
>
>
>
> I will update the case study when new developments occur.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
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> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
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[RE-wrenches] Thread relevancy.

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I spent a lot of time trying to help you with your design.  If you take my
advice I think you will save a lot of time and money.  From the pushback I
gather you are not convinced.  So be it--others may benefit from the
discussion.



I commented on Kirk Herander’s link by thoughtfully evaluating three
realistic options for integrating multiple inverters with bypass
capabilities.  I did this in hopes someone would find the information
helpful.  I have long ago gone through the thought process and made my
choice so I am not doing it for myself.



The $26 amazon product will not be useful at all in this case because it
interlocks only two breakers.  It looks like you are comparing the $26
solution as equivalent to the $350-450 custom fabricated interlock or the
home-made option.  It is not and is therefore not relevant.  Also, it is
pretty common knowledge that labor practices at scamazon are atrocious
.
I encourage my fellow wrenches to find alternative, more ethical vendors.



I get that these discussions can branch out, and that can be useful in its
own way, but if it does and the poster that branches out does not indicate
the subject has shifted, the thread does not track.  The reader is left
wondering how an off-subject response applies to the question.



I’d like to respectfully request that my fellow wrenches read the questions
posted here carefully and try to answer the question at hand in order to
keep the discussions as useful and succinct as possible.  Good sentence and
paragraph structure helps readability.  I’d also like to point out that
anecdotal information that does not have factual foundation is not all that
helpful.



Respectfully,



William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 5:28 PM
*To:* William Miller
*Cc:* Kirk Herander; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



Sorry. $26.



https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw_tag=se=405275792334=t=9053055=g=e=1514810600998942803=kwd-847960718866=7662_9903424=ch+generator+interlock+kit=1711585215=8-1-spons_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY=1



This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the
interlocked breaker as a bypass.



I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I
can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an
interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated
to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my
area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for
cheap.





Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research
before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers
(4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are talking
apples against oranges.



Thank you.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
*To:* Kirk Herander
*Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.



Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a 

[RE-wrenches] Good tech support

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of
Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled
system.  If not, here

is the case study.



The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to
short days and cloudy weather.  There has not been enough sunshine to cause
a recurrence.  Now that spring has sprung the problem is back.



I did come up with a work-around:  I installed a contactor to disconnect
the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%.  This works but it does waste
some solar capability.



I have been working with Fortress on the issue.  They have been in touch
and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to
find a solution.  Most important they have admitted the problem exists.



To me this is very refreshing.  This makes me want to use more Fortress
products and sing their praises.  I think my fellow wrenches would want to
know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to
use, which is the reason for this post.



Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress.



Hi William,



Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still
actively working on this case to provide you with a solution.



We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve
the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in
discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility
issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I
unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon.



Thank you for your patience.



Warm regards,

Galen Gennaria



I will update the case study when new developments occur.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Sorry. $26.

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw_tag=se=405275792334=t=9053055=g=e=1514810600998942803=kwd-847960718866=7662_9903424=ch+generator+interlock+kit=1711585215=8-1-spons_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY=1

This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the
interlocked breaker as a bypass.

I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I
can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an
interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated
to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my
area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for
cheap.


Jason



On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some
> research before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5
> breakers (4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are
> talking apples against oranges.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
> *To:* Kirk Herander
> *Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
> on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
> legacy panels.
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
> I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked
> at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have
> to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Kirk:
>
>
>
> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>
>
>
> Let’s consider the options:
>
>
>
> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
> for what we are talking about).
>
>
>
> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>
>
>
> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
> can really add up.
>
>
>
> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>
>
>
> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
> That’s why we do it.
>
>
>
> Wm
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
> including multiple breakers.
>
>
>
> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
> QO breakers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research
before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers
(4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are talking
apples against oranges.



Thank you.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
*To:* Kirk Herander
*Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.



Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.








*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.

Jason


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked
> at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have
> to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Kirk:
>>
>>
>>
>> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s consider the options:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
>> for what we are talking about).
>>
>>
>>
>> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
>> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
>> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
>> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
>> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
>> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
>> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
>> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
>> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
>> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
>> can really add up.
>>
>>
>>
>> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
>> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
>> That’s why we do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
>> including multiple breakers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
>> QO breakers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>>
>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>>
>> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>>
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>
>> 802.559.1225
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> Replies below.
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
>> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
>> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> William,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
>> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
>> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
>> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
>> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>>
>>
>>
>> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
>> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
>> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
>> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
>> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
>> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
>> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
>> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
>> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
>> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
>> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
>> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
>> at full capacity.
>>
>>
>>
>> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
>> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
>> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
>> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Kirk:
>
>
>
> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>
>
>
> Let’s consider the options:
>
>
>
> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
> for what we are talking about).
>
>
>
> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>
>
>
> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
> can really add up.
>
>
>
> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>
>
>
> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
> That’s why we do it.
>
>
>
> Wm
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
> including multiple breakers.
>
>
>
> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
> QO breakers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>
>
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
> at full capacity.
>
>
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
> to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
> function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
> undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
> of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
> Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
> the Sol-Arc.  I would 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.










*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
believe this is overkill. 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.

Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.





*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>
>
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
> at full capacity.
>
>
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
> to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
> function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
> undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
> of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
> Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
> the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
> there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
> deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
> a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
> generator running.)
>
>
>
> But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
> with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
> 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
> The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
> backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
> believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
> that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
> points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
> that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
> the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
> understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
> tell inexperienced plan-checkers).
>
>
>
> With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to
> accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively
> cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I
> get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a
> generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically
> only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square
> D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is
> incompatible with the interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency
> condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps.  If you want full
> bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size
> breaker.  Here
> 
> is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked.  Here
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
tell inexperienced plan-checkers).



With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish
this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective
option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept
for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on
an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single
backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a
backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the
interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes
limit my bypass to 100 amps.  If you want full bypass ampacity you can
build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker.  Here

is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked.  Here

is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options.



Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
appreciated.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956

Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an excerpt.



*Error! Filename not specified.*



For those that 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

They are certainly friendly, but I didn't get a straight and definitive answer
when I called about this. It should really be documented. There is no
documentation about how paralleled units share/balance inputs and pass current
through.


Regardless, I still think it is best practice to size the load conductors for
the sum of the full generator/grid input (on the grid input lugs) plus 62.5A, or
200A, whichever is less, even in a parallel system in case one unit ceases to
function or is removed for service.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 8:03 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> Sol-Ark's applications engineers are your friends : )
> 
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:13 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>  wrote:
> 
> > William,
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.
> > 
> > 
> > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem
> > I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master
> > inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the
> > input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if
> > the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow
> > the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this
> > trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is
> > a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing
> > through all 150A.
> > 
> > 
> > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because
> > each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add
> > that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of
> > possible throughput.
> > 
> > 
> > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
> > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
> > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
> > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
> > backfed breaker.
> > 
> > 
> > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish
> > this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective
> > option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept
> > for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on
> > an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed
> > 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed
> > 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock
> > device.
> > 
> > 
> > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
> > appreciated.
> > 
> > Jason Szumlanski
> > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller  > [will...@millersolar.com]> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Jason:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
> > > shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an
> > > excerpt.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///yH5BAEALAABAAEAAAIBRAA7]
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support,
> > > here is how I describe it:  The inverter(s) are programmed for the
> > > generator capacity.  If the generator is powering loads and the demand
> > > exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start
> > > inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power.  This is
> > > only possible if battery charge levels are adequate.  In the Sol-Arc this
> > > function can be adjusted or turned off.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing:  I may have done a poor job
> > > describing how I see your project best approached.  Below is a diagram
> > > that may do a better job.  Power flow is from left to right:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///yH5BAEALAABAAEAAAIBRAA7]
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single
> > > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jason,

I talked through this scenario with Sol-Ark tech support a while back. The
take away was that grid peak shaving does exist but ONLY on the grid port.
If this is an off-grid installation, then land the conductors from the
generator on the grid port and select “gen connected to grid port” option.

But in a grid-tied scenario, where the generator is connected to the Gen
port, do not expect a smaller generator to get peak shaving support from
the inverter, and expect it to overload if an overload is present. Sol-Ark
suggested that you could use a ATS to allow the generator and grid
conductores to be shared on the single grid port…but that just seems like a
clunky idea.



On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 6:13 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> William,
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.
>
> But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
> with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
> 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
> The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
> backfed breaker.
>
> With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to
> accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively
> cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I
> get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a
> generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically
> only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square
> D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is
> incompatible with the interlock device.
>
> Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
> appreciated.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
>> shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an excerpt.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support,
>> here is how I describe it:  The inverter(s) are programmed for the
>> generator capacity.  If the generator is powering loads and the demand
>> exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start
>> inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power.  This is
>> only possible if battery charge levels are adequate.  In the Sol-Arc this
>> function can be adjusted or turned off.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing:  I may have done a poor job
>> describing how I see your project best approached.  Below is a diagram that
>> may do a better job.  Power flow is from left to right:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single
>> inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps.  Ergo
>> #4 copper.  The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp
>> breakers.  If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual
>> you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and
>> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is
>> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located
>> in the “Main Breaker Panel.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps,
>> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker
>> provides.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I have been more clear.  I 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

Sol-Ark's applications engineers are your friends : )

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:13 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> William,
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.
>
> But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
> with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
> 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
> The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
> backfed breaker.
>
> With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to
> accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively
> cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I
> get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a
> generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically
> only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square
> D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is
> incompatible with the interlock device.
>
> Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
> appreciated.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
>> shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an excerpt.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support,
>> here is how I describe it:  The inverter(s) are programmed for the
>> generator capacity.  If the generator is powering loads and the demand
>> exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start
>> inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power.  This is
>> only possible if battery charge levels are adequate.  In the Sol-Arc this
>> function can be adjusted or turned off.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing:  I may have done a poor job
>> describing how I see your project best approached.  Below is a diagram that
>> may do a better job.  Power flow is from left to right:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single
>> inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps.  Ergo
>> #4 copper.  The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp
>> breakers.  If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual
>> you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and
>> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is
>> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located
>> in the “Main Breaker Panel.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps,
>> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker
>> provides.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I have been more clear.  I also hope you don’t spend a lot of
>> money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Call me if I can help in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
>> bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn *on* the
>> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers.  See
>> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass
>> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client
>> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>