Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes?

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

My vague recollection of a similar problem I saw 10 yrs ago was that the surges 
and sags of a balancing transformer like the T240 are greater than that of a 
true isolation transformer.  Whereas the T240 has both primary and secondary 
sides sharing a neutral, the surge that the generator sees becomes too high.  I 
recall we fixed this by using a 2400VA acme isolation transformer.  Can’t 
really remember the engineering explanation, but you may want to explore this 
avenue.

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Spirit Solar Inc.

 

 

 

From: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
[mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes?

 

Hi Jay,

 

The diversion load is AC, and controlled by the Aux output dump load function 
on the MX 60. The aux output triggers a relay that opens the 1000 W, space 
heater dump load 

 

Since this is an AC coupled system, the dump load is between the inverter and 
the Stirling generator, fed from the off grid service panel where the AC 
coupling takes place. The Stirling puts out close to 1000 W. 

 

When the Stirling is charging batteries, the FET board on the Outback is 
working hard, turning the AC into DC. When the batteries reach the programmed 
voltage level, the relay triggers and the power goes to an electric space 
heater. The inverter has little to do. 

 

A sketch of the setup is attached. 

 

 

The problem  seems to occur when there is a change in the load. It can also be 
other loads that cause the Stirling to go into high voltage shutdown 

 

Thanks,

 

Drake 


- Original Message -

From:

"RE-wrenches" 

 

To:

"RE-wrenches" 

Cc:

 

Sent:

Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:29:33 -0700

Subject:

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes?


Hi Drake,

Can you explain the diversion load more. 
Dc or ac
Size, Watts
What type of load
How is it turned on, off

My reasoning is that you seem to point to a connection between diversion load 
and shut down. 

Thx
Jay




> On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:25 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> We have an Outback VFX3648 inverter AC coupled to a Stirling Generator. We 
> use an Outback autotransformer to get the 240 V needed to match the Stirling. 
> The Stirling generator must run continuously, as it is difficult to start up 
> after a shut down.
> 
> The system works flawlessly for many hours. At some point, usually when the 
> dump load kicks on, the generator shuts down on a high voltage error. High 
> voltage is about 264 V. We have never seen voltage that high on the system. 
> 
> We replaced the control board on the inverter, and the output voltage appears 
> very stable. The Stirling people say that the Outback must be putting out 
> high voltage spikes that are so brief that we will not be able to see them 
> with a voltmeter. 
> 
> Can an Outback inverter create such spikes? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Drake 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

I recommend the hydraulically pressed ballast block over the non hydraulically 
pressed kind.

 

From: cwarfel [mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:08 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks

 

I am not trying to prolong this thread, but I do want to say that there should 
be an inspection of the blocks in freeze/thaw areas.  We started an inspection 
program of our systems or systems in the area and although we don't install 
ballasted systems, we found enough other things to address. On my own 8 year 
old system zip tie failure was over 50%.  It opened my eyes to the need to do 
these inspections, and spec better materials at the start.  

I remember the survey in Wisconsin regarding the inspecting of fairly old solar 
thermal systems.  All the participants really seemed to love their systems, but 
I think over 3/4 of them were not working. 

 

On 7/1/2018 8:02 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Kirt, Chris, Wrenches

We have not had any issues other then one or two in Hawaii or California, it 
might be the location, concrete blocks sitting in the weather all exposed to 
rain from on all sides and then potential freezing conditions will cause 
failure of the blocks, the same issue pools will get if there are tiles around 
the edge when they pop off in freezing conditions but thats just me>

Jerry

NABCEP Installer and PVI

 

 

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

All,

I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid cap 
blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to rubble. I 
assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What might be the 
preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort?

 

Kirk Herander

Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC 

Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM  2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

 

 


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-- 

 

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

 
  EEI logo

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

A dampening of the knee of the IV curve would be indicative of higher series 
resistance.  The higher series resistance would also increase cell temperatures 
as shown in the thermo image.  The cooling off of the cells under open circuit 
conditions would also correlate to the higher series resistance, whereas there 
would be no current flowing generating heat through the cell resistance under 
open circuit conditions.  The question then becomes why would some cells have 
high resistance.  Could be cell fractures, albeit odd that they would be random 
within the module, and also random in the group of modules shown.  I’m guessing 
it was only this one string, perhaps this crate of modules was banged up in 
shipping or something.

Here is a link to an article about the relationship between series resistance 
and fill factor.  
http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/series-resistance

 

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Spirit Solar Inc.

(413) 734-1456

 

 

 

From: Corey Shalanski [mailto:co...@joule-energy.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 6:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation

 

On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon on a 
single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals that the 
measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) are 
significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For reference, the 
ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010 W/m².

 

The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal image 
(also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better term I 
would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a 
"checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly 55°C 
and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the inverter 
was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules revert to a much 
more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, instead varying by only a 
couple degrees across the entire module/string.

 

There was no apparent physical damage to the modules.

 

Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this phenomenon?

 

--

Corey Shalanski

Joule Energy

New Orleans, LA

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

My quick thoughts would be using a sunlight resistant insulated wire, and 
stripping the insulation where needed to make the grounding connection.  Second 
would be to use a tinned copper wire, where I believe eliminates the galvanic 
corrosion / dissimilar metals issue, but perhaps not depending on the metals.  
I've always used for metal roof applications.

Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Spirit Solar Inc.
(413) 734-1456



-Original Message-
From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [mailto:offgridso...@sti.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 12:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size
for this wiring. What do they say please?  --Dave

> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one:
> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763
>
> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't
> touch the rack.
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana <d...@solarwork.com> wrote:
>
>> Good Morning Wrenches,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum
>> frame
>> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically
>> connected
>> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals]
>> and
>> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6
>> bare
>> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans
>> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy
>> solution to this.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse  the
>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated
>> cable
>> standoff”.
>>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source
>> this strap?
>>
>>
>>
>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall
>> where I saw it or what it was for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions.
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>>
>> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
>> <d...@solarwork.com>*
>>
>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>>
>> NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.biz
>>
>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>>
>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Will White*
> Curriculum Developer
>
> [image: Inline image 3]
>
> e: w...@solarenergy.org
> w: www.solarenergy.org
> p: 802-272-3092
>
> PV Installation Professional
> # 093006-34
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Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water temperature 
and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp.  My recollection 
is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 
12gpd thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly with consumers, from those 
that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 showers a day.  In the 
northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the total household energy load for 
the year.  Also, I would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if 
you have significant humidity or an on demand unit.  Water tanks are typically 
under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses.

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Spirit Solar Inc.

(413) 734-1456

 

 

 

From: Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

 

You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 or 
so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are typically 
10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate how many Btus 
are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add 
some contingency and you should be good. 

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric 
water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be 
used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The 
current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be 
consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot 
water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. 

Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. 

The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think 
the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water 
consumed would be the main issue. 

How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot 
water? Any other suggestions are welcome.

Thank you,

Drake





-- 

-- 

Barton Churchill
406.587.5295  
2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715
 <http://www.solarips.com/> www.solarips.com

Image removed by sender.

 

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[RE-wrenches] Remote battery monitoring

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

I am going to be working with a group of high school students this summer
who have very limited prior solar experience.  We will be installing a small
off grid PV system (1.9kW) and small wind turbine generator (400W to 1kW).
I plan on using three Morningstar Trimetric controllers, one to control
charge of the PV array to the battery bank, a second as a load control
relay, and a third as a dump control.  I can connect all the Morningstar
controllers together on an RS485 bus and connect to the solar charge
controller via an Ethernet link to the local area network.  The Morningstar
controllers will be monitored via a classroom computer, and they will be
able to give me Ahrs in from the solar array, Ahrs to the load, Ahrs to the
dump load, but not the Ahrs in from the wind turbine generator.  My question
is, how can I add monitoring of the wind turbine Ahrs that goes to the
battery?  I will need something that can get to the local area network.
Wifi or direct broadcast may be difficult because I have to go through the
electronics cabinet and two brick walls.

 

The only thing I can think of is to add a Tri or Penta Metric from Bogart
Engineering, which would duplicate the info the Morningstar controllers
would give me, but could add the Wind Turbine Generator as well, but perhaps
there is a better way.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Spirit Solar

413 734-1456 (cell)

 

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[RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

In the past I determined that anything above a 4 pitch on standing seam roofs 
would require rails.  Just too difficult otherwise.  I would recommend the use 
of rails all the time however on larger systems, there can be significant added 
cost.  Because the seams don't align as a perfect multiple of the module length 
or width, you do end up having some modules with a greater spacing between 
supports than perhaps the module spec sheet requires.  Additionally I have 
found that for multiple home run strings, a stainless steel retaining clip 
dunked in rubber (mfg that way), is a good way to bundle the wires.  Even 
better is to use a flexible conduit with a slit to run the home run wiring up / 
across under the array, where the conduit supports are on S-5 clips.  Sorry 
don't have access to pictures at the moment.Mike KocsmierskySpirit Solar
  From: "re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org" 

 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 3:43 PM
 Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 13
   
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line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted 
message.
 Today's Topics:

  1. Wire management with S5! Railless System (Hilton Dier)
  2. Re: Wire management with S5! Railless System (August Goers)
  3. This is as admin test message, please do not respond
      (Michael Welch)
  4. This is as admin test message, please do not respond
      (Michael Welch)
Add my voice to the “never without rails” chorus. 

1) S-5 clamps are only as good as the standing seam they are on. At least rails 
spread out the stresses and avoid large point loads. 

2) Ice likes to slide. Rails give some height above that. 

3) Rail height gives better ventilation and hot weather performance.

4) Module width is never an even multiple of roofing pan width. No rails means 
inevitably some modules will be “diving boards.”

5) Without rails, getting the modules to an even height is a giant PITA. Takes 
forever. I did it once and never again.

Best

Hilton

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
Ray - I agree with the others that S5 clamps with rails is the way to go on
standing seam roofs. We buy our S5 clamps through LMCurbs and I've found
their pricing and service to be good: http://www.lmcurbs.com/

We go though a good deal of effort to determine the exact standing seam
make/model and then procure the S5 clamps that are specifically designed
for the roof. Even then, sometimes the seams need to be compressed a bit to
slip the clamp over. You can squeeze the seams with a large pair of channel
locks with a piece or cardboard to protect the channel lock teeth from
marring the metal standing seam coating.

If you still need to run PV wires along modules frames without rails,
HellermannTyton might make a product that will work for you:
http://www.hellermanntyton.us/industry.aspx?id=3132
You might be able to get a solar sampler kit from them to find a good fit.

Best,

August
Luminalt


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Ray  wrote:

> Hi All;
>
> I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on
> Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once
> again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail.  I have some of
> those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them
> slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.)
> Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I
> have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing
> seam roofs.  I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular
> roof.  AEE quit carrying S5 altogether.
> Give me your Standing seam wisdom.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
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Hi gang. I'm still testing file attachments, please do not respond. 

Sorry to bother you 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar Water Heating Systems

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Most often I used 1" thick isocyanurate pre-adhered to the PVC wrap.  I chose 
this method for the high R-value, about R7 per inch.  A bit pricier than closed 
cell foam rubber insulation, but much better R-value, R7 vs R3ish.  At first I 
would use a PVC sealant, extremely high in VOCs, to seal the PVC seams.  The 
sealant kept freezing in the work van, and was so nauseous that I moved to just 
using the adhesive strip on the PVC and PVC tape at the seams.  The PVC tape 
would peel so went to barbed tacks.  I then realized that the isocyanurate was 
hydroscopic so it was very important to make sure that all the piping was 
waterproof, or the water would provide a very low impedance path for the heat.  
So I would try and work from the bottom of the pipe run to the top so that I 
could layer the PVC coverings, and keep the PVC covering overlap facing down on 
horizontal runs.  However, where an elbow buts a straight piece, the seam 
cannot be overlapped by the PVC covering due to the angle.  Thu
 s you wrap a 3" wide PVC over the seam.  This however allows any water coming 
vertically down the straight piece to work its way behind the PVC lapping and 
into the seam, thereafter absorbed by the isocyanurate.  Thus I would tape the 
joint, using two barbed tacks to hold the tape.  Overall I am concerned that 
the potential to absorb water was too high and that using the foam rubber, 
which will not absorb water, will provide better overall results, despite the 
lower R-Value, for typical short exterior runs of residential systems (<50' 
total).  The use of the foam rubber line sets provide a bit better R-value by 
adjoining the two pipes, but they almost always fall a few feet short of final 
connection with either the insulation or the PV resistant covering, the 
connection fittings are expensive, difficult to make longer runs look nice, and 
concern over the longevitiy of the lineset due to corrosion of the thousands of 
thin rippled edges made me use these sparingly.  I have never done 
 a real study on the thermal losses associated with real world application of 
the different types of insulation, but would like to see one.  Good luck with 
the article Chris.

-Original Message-
From: cwarfel [mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 6:52 AM
To: solar1onl...@charter.net; 'RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar Water 
Heating Systems

I thinkthis problem is really only "solved" by using the coverings 
suggested, especially it seems, aluminum jacketing.  I will be going off 
island in a week and I will have the chance to go to a store that sells 
these products. I am hoping to put this system into HomePower, so, this 
will be part of the article. Thanks for everyone's responses. I 
hopefully responded to everyone off line. Stay tuned.  Chris


On 11/6/2017 4:57 PM, solar1onl...@charter.net wrote:
> Hi Chris, Your question certainly generated a number of responses. 
> While the field applied covering I mentioned certainly peeled off and 
> had the consistency of latex paint, I did _not_ perform an analysis. 
> There is outdoor latex paint which should have UV inhibitors, so 
> perhaps it really was latex. The original owner is gone, so no help 
> there but a paint manufacturer may be able to verify latex paint as an 
> inexpensive _and effective_ covering solution. What made this solution 
> stand out in my mind so well was the flex roof flashings, which when 
> unprotected become brittle (and useless) oftentimes before the ten 
> year mark. This painted flashing was just as flexible as a new unit 
> and as you are well aware, replacing a solar flashing is way more 
> involved than a plumbing flashing. I am aware of many manufacturers 
> that rebrand/repackage a common item as a solution for a very specific 
> problem and charge an outlandish premium for the common item in a 
> shiny package (sometimes not even a shiny package). Bill
>
> -
>
> From: "cwarfel"
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent: 06-Nov-2017 13:01:11 +
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar 
> Water Heating Systems
>
> Hi Bill, thanks. I did not think latex would hold up anywhere near 
> that long.  Chris
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 9:13 AM, solar1onl...@charter.net wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> The fitted covers certainly provide a more finished appearance. One of
> my customers painted the insulation (w/o fitted covers) with latex
> paint and after 30+ years the insulation was still quite flexible. My
> take away was simply that eliminating the sun (UV) effects paid off
> big time. As I remember they used white paint.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> 314 631 1094
>
>   -From: "Glenn Burt"
> To: "RE-wrenches"
> Cc:
> Sent: 04-Nov-2017 00:21:14 +
> Subject: Re: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar Water Heating Systems

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

I see this often as a shortcoming of solar thermal installations, the lack of 
UV protection on the insulation.  You see it all the time with HVAC equipment.  
The most economical is the PVC wrap.  I suggest using white vs the 
architectural brown whereas the white is more UV resistant.  It can be tricky 
trying to cover rubber insulated foam trying to get it to look nice, whereas a 
rigid insulation is a bit easier.  Nonetheless would also suggest using barbed 
tacks to keep the PVC jacketing secure, the adhesive strip, if it has any, will 
not suffice.  Other options may include metal jacketed insulation (costly) or 
UV protection on some of the newer linesets.  Painting the PVC with spray paint 
to change the color I have had good success with.

Mike Kocsmiersky
PV Inspections
(413) 734-1456



-Original Message-
From: solar1onl...@charter.net [mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 9:14 AM
To: 'glenn.b...@glbcc.com, RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar Water 
Heating Systems

Chris,

The fitted covers certainly provide a more finished appearance. One of
my customers painted the insulation (w/o fitted covers) with latex
paint and after 30+ years the insulation was still quite flexible. My
take away was simply that eliminating the sun (UV) effects paid off
big time. As I remember they used white paint.

Best wishes,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

-From: "Glenn Burt" 
To: "RE-wrenches"
Cc: 
Sent: 04-Nov-2017 00:21:14 +
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar
Water Heating Systems

 How about the white PVC jacketing? You can buy fitted elbow covers
and other fitted parts as well. Probably paintable in any color to
blend into location.

 List-Archive:  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D)

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

You may also want to cite the 2017 code which does not require the GEC for 
ungrounded inverters, or rather non transformer isolated inverters.  

 

From: Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 2:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D)

 

I don’t think that was the intention necessarily, but I have argued the same 
thing with varying degrees of success. Fortunately (?) we are still on 2011 
here, but 2014 is coming and hopefully AHJs will remain permissive of no 
additional electrode if the home already has one within 6 feet of the service 
entrance (which it almost always does).

 

Jason Szumlanski




 

 

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:57 PM, William Miller  wrote:

Mark:

For micro-inverter systems I have successfully argued the application of
Exception No. 1. in that the load is the micro-inverter.

William


Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of ma...@berkeleysolar.com
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D)

Folks,

NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a
residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as
a requirement.

Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am
planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to
say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"?

Mark


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[RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Recently I've been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and the
design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter.  If I have a 300W module
going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential
power output is clipped because the micro inverter can't handle all the
power.  I'm thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance.  It is typical
nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2.  Have you seen
any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is
increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter?
This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded.

Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade slightly
as well, reducing the amount of power clipping.

 

I welcome your thoughts.

 

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Phone: 413 883-3144 

Spirit Solar

www.SpiritSolar.net

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Your measurements of the Isc for the four stings seems to be odd in string 3
with only 2.4A.  However, when you measure the circuit under load, you are
getting 14.6A from all 4 strings, which averages 3.65A.  I’d say check that
string again, perhaps the current clamp wasn’t zeroed or something.

First I would try reading the MPPT voltage and current for each string
individually connected to the load.  If one of the strings had a bad diode,
I’m not sure it would show up in a Voc test.  Perhaps a bad bypass diode
could give the MPPT algorithm a difficult time finding the MPPT of the
array, and it gets stuck on curve of the one string that has a bad diode.

 

Also, it could be more of an issue with the MPPT controller thinking the
array is a 24V Array, or some other controller failure.  I would look there.

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Phone: 413 883-3144 

Spirit Solar

www.SpiritSolar.net

 

 

From: Allan Sindelar [mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 2:12 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system

 

Steve,
Yes, in the same sequence: 75.5V, 73.8V, 73.9V, 74.0V. All just about what
I'd expect.

Brian,
I have seen that with KC120s over the years - good Voc and Isc but no MPP.
That's a known failure that Kyocera (to their credit) continues to warrant
15 years out. But I haven't seen it with the many 75W BPs we installed in
that same time period. So it's possible, but unlikely, especially with all
four strings behaving in a similar manner.
Thank you. I'm off on field work now, will respond to any more replies
tomorrow.

Allan




On 8/25/2016 8:24 AM, Steve Bell wrote:

Hello Allan, 

 

Did you check the Voc of each string?  Is it possible that there could one
or more shorted bypass diodes in the modules?

 

Just a thought.

 

Steve Bell

Morningstar tech support

 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Allan Sindelar <al...@sindelarsolar.com>
wrote:

Wrenches,
Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system that
was one of my first, although actual installation was by another before I
was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that time.
Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four 48V
strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested
with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell
mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint.

At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I
measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I
measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except
for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from 20-year-old
module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep from the MX60
at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire 48V array
settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W (originally
rated) array.

I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related
degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have
never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V
module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out
there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird
behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so
far below what is typical?

There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, because
of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a ground fault
(a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage to ground).
This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were direct burial
for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the array and the
house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage
measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would
indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue.

As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here.
Allan

-- 

Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 <tel:505%20780-2738>  cell

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

I used to think exactly like Kirk, in that I would design the DC array size to 
match the inverter size, figuring why clip potential output.  However, when you 
have 1000W/m2 shining down on the modules, a crystalline silicone module will 
heat up about 30C above ambient, and dropping your output by about 12% to 15%.  
As outlined by Chris, adding other loss factors and you will probably never 
clip in the summertime even if you are 15% greater with DC module rating vs AC 
inverter rating.  The benefits of keeping a higher DC power to AC power ratio 
allows the inverter to operate closer to peak efficiency during low light 
levels, startup and near power down conditions.  Also, as the modules degrade 
over time, the ratio will drop.  So does having the added available power 
earlier in the morning and later in the day keep the inverter on longer to 
produce more power during those times than the power lost due to noontime 
clipping in the winter?  Conventional wisdom says yes.  (Here I am trusting the 
inverter sizing software designers, and my own experience.  The only other 
drawback is additional heat buildup on the heat sink due to the extra power the 
inverter is pushing through, which the inverter should be able to handle.  
Overall I think you are best to design residential systems with a ratio of 1.12 
+/- .02 to 1 of DC array size to inverter AC rating.  For commercial systems go 
a bit higher 1.2:1 to 1.25:1.

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Phone: 413 883-3144 

Spirit Solar

www.SpiritSolar.net

 

 

From: Chris Mason [mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter

 

In high temperature locations such as the Caribbean, where we are, the modules 
run at about 40C during midday. Combine the temperature derate with losses for 
dust, cabling, azimuth and tilt, it makes sense to add ten to twenty percent 
more PV.

Given that the string design is never perfect, I would rather go a little over 
than way under. When we were installing 240W modules on European Sunny Tripower 
20KW units using 1,000V PV designs, we could either go with three strings = 
18KW or 4 strings = 24KW. The three strings would have seriously underpowered 
the inverter. 

 

On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Kirk Herander <vtso...@icloud.com> wrote:

Hello folks,

I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It seems 
a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than the inverter 
AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate more power on either 
side of peak output, but at a cost I don’t feel is justified. My opinion of 
this particular big-box installer I will keep to myself. My response to the 
customer, trying to keep it simple:

 

“On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. For 
instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. 
Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and technical 
reasons.

On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. Power 
output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. In my 
example, the inverter can’t output more than 10 kw AC. What overloading the 
input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. generating more power in the 
morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So 
there is power to be gained in morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if 
conditions allow the peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can 
never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. Depending upon time of 
year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the peak may be 
clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both gaining and losing 
power using this method. And typically the inverters are only overloaded in 
this manner on large-scale farms where the economics are favorable.

In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of 
inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array would 
cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that extra 50Kw 
would generate will take 2 – 3x the time that the array size does that stays 
inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I’m not a big fan of 
dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all,  in your case. Any KW 
portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is 
going to have a longer payback for these reasons. “

I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don’t want to be too loose with the facts. 
Comments are appreciated. Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC 

Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM  2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Air compressors have a high surge current and the SW5548 doesn't handle
surges that well.  I'm surprised you even got the compressor to run.  Adding
more capacitance for the startup might help.

Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Phone: 413 883-3144 
Spirit Solar
www.SpiritSolar.net



-Original Message-
From: Jeremy Rodriguez [mailto:allsolarjer...@msn.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 12:46 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Compressor motor/SW+5548

Hello
I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it does
run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it reads
60+ amps. 
Do you think better capacitors would help the situation?
BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. 
I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with no
benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. 

Jeremy Rodriguez 
Solar Installation And Design Expert 
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M St
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

Chris,
In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current
(or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior
battery bank.  I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for
fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not
evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset.  This
caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually
would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize.  This doesn't sound like
it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the
longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to
evaporate enough.  May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently
overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and
can't maintain pressure.  May want to check the tank size of propane for the
genset.  (I'm assuming this is LPG).



Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Phone: 413 883-3144 
Spirit Solar
www.SpiritSolar.net



-Original Message-
From: Chris Daum [mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com





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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

I've had good luck with both the SureSine from Morningstar and Exeltech for
inverters.  Couldn't tell you the noise output.

Also, you may want to try Solar Converters Inc, or Samlex for DC to DC
converters.

 

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Phone: 413 883-3144 

Spirit Solar

www.SpiritSolar.net

 

 

From: Ray Walters [mailto:r...@solarray.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 6:47 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters

 

What about building a 30 vdc system (5 x 6v batteries in series)  and adjust
the settings on a Midnite Classic to work with that?  How tight does the 30
vdc output need to be?

On inverters, I've had  trouble with the Suresine, basically not working
with GFCI outlets.
I keep trying different models of GFCIs, but they keep randomly tripping on
2 different systems. 
Morningstar's list of "approved" GFCIs doesn't list any currently
manufactured models, while calls to their tech support yields "Oh, that
shouldn't be a problem, it should work with all GFCIs..."
Way too many free trips out trying to fix this, so I may have to abandon
GFCI protection, or replace the inverters.  
My suggestion for that small load: Exeltech 125.  Better than grid waveform,
and I recently pulled one out of corroded outdoor enclosure almost 15 years
old: it looked terrible, but was still working fine.  It would also be lower
cost and fit in a smaller enclosure.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/28/2016 2:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote:

Hi William; 

30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar Converters
might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or perhaps 36V is within the
sat unit's input range.

As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar SureSine.
Slick little unit.




Dan Fink 

Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute

IREC Certified InstructorT for: 

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

Executive Director, Buckville Energy

NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT
  970.672.4342


 

 

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com>
wrote:

Friends:

 

I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for a
state highway department facility.  We will be using the Outback Optics data
capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web.

 

I'd like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can hope
to use it when we need it most, when the power is down.  We have a separate
24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control system.
The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps.

 

My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts.  Do
any of you know of one that you could recommend?

 

My second choice is to use a small inverter.  Can anyone suggest one at this
small wattage?  I don't know how good the power supply is at rejecting
waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a
sine wave.

Thanks in advance.

 

William Miller

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/> 
805-438-5600

 

 






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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fuses on TL Inverters

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

I believe that when you have a TL inverter that has two channels you may have 
up to two strings, unfused, going into each channel.  Thus leaving you with 
four strings of modules with no fusing.  

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Phone: 413 883-3144 

Spirit Solar

www.SpiritSolar.net

 

 

From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 6:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fuses on TL Inverters

 

Wrenches
We have been installing combiners with anything more then 1 string on the TL 
inverters. Troubleshooting is better with a remote combiner, its seems a waist 
but all our inspectors to like to see it also. 

On Jan 29, 2016 10:36 AM, "Mark Byington" <ma...@cobaltpower.com> wrote:

 

"Transformerless inverters need fuses on both DC positive and DC negative legs 
to protect the inverter in case of ground fault."

 

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that TL inverters are no different 
than transformer type inverters in terms of DC fusing requirements - no fuse 
required for one or two strings in parallel; fuses required on + and - leads 
for 3 or more strings in parallel.

 

Mark Byington

Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Friend with system needs help

[Mike Kocsmiersky]

My hunch is that you have four strings of 11 modules and 1 of the four strings 
is wired backwards such that the DC+ goes to the negative input of the 
inverter, and the DC- of the string to the fused DC+ of the inverter.  This 
would look fine under open circuit conditions, but not perform properly when 
connected.  But it is impossible to tell from the information given.  Jay’s 
advice to test with each string individually would be the way to go.

 

Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Phone: 413 883-3144 

Spirit Solar

www.SpiritSolar.net

 

 

From: jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Friend with system needs help

 

HI Steve,

 

So they are all low?

 

Then I suggest an IV curve tracer.

 

 

jay

 

 

On Nov 19, 2015, at 7:18 AM, Steve Jefferson <steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com> 
wrote:

 

The outputs are pretty close. That’s what is throwing me off.

In most trouble shooting adventures, the problem is fairly obvious.

This one, not so much.

 

SMA America, LLC

Steve Jefferson

Service Line Supervisor

3925 Atherton Ave

Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714

U.S.A.

Tel:  +1 916 625 3185 (direct)

Fax: +1 916 625 0871

Mobile: +1 916 622 4253

Email:  <mailto:steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com> steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com

 <http://www.sma-america.com/> www.SMA-America.com

 

 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQWzPuyqhzo=youtu.be> 

 

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [ <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches < <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Friend with system needs help

 

Hi steve. 

 

Is the output from each string of 11 the same?

Have you tried ruining 1 string at a time?  

 

Jay



Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:14 AM, Steve Jefferson < 
<mailto:steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com> steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com> wrote:

Afternoon wrenches,

 

I have a friend who I helped install second hand modules onto a pergola 
structure at their home.

 

The system is as follows:

 

44 – Siemens SP-150

1 – SMA SB6000US-12 (XFMR unit)

 

Since install, they have not produced half of what they should be.  I have 
tested the diodes and they seem to be good, there were a couple that tested 
questionable, so they were replaced.

VOC is good, but it seems that under load the system goes to garbage.

 

I am at a loss of what/how to test anything else that may determine cause.

 

Would a PV Analyzer help? Would there happen to be anyone in the Sacramento 
area with one who could come to the site? Obviously the customer will pay for 
their time.

 

Thanks in advanced.

 

SMA America, LLC

Steve Jefferson

Service Line Supervisor

3925 Atherton Ave

Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714

U.S.A.

Tel:  +1 916 625 3185 (direct)

Fax: +1 916 625 0871

Mobile: +1 916 622 4253

Email:  <mailto:steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com> steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com

 <http://www.sma-america.com/> www.SMA-America.com

 

 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQWzPuyqhzo=youtu.be> 

 

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.

 

 

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