Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions
Hi all, I'm going to chime in here because Sandra Herrera recently took over from Matt James as our Applications Engineering Manager and voice to the Wrenches, but I'm not sure she's fully set up yet to respond. If this is a duplicate post, please forgive. We at OutBack believe in an empowered system owner, and we want to give system owners the tools and flexibility to manage their own power and investment in whatever way they see fit. The MATE3 also gives you tools to control user access, to lock the system down to prevent inadvertent changes, with multiple user-levels so depending upon whether the system is managed by a tenant, a tinkerer or a technogeek, they can have the right levels of access (or limit access if desired). With more and more variable utility rates and demand management programs beginning to be available, we see the Drop and Use commands being used more and more frequently as people want to manage their grid use. I don't see that going away. In terms of the Charger, the MATE3 does have a warning screen as you cycle the Charger through On/Off/Auto, to let you know what to expect. William, it is the original MATE which has reached its limits in terms of upgradability. All future development and updates are focusing on our MATE3 and AXS Port, and we release new features at least twice a year, if not quarterly. If you are afraid of homeowner tinkeritis you may want to look at our AXS Port -- our most recent update to its firmware gives it all of the intelligence and capabilities of our MATE3, only with zero buttons. All controls are via OpticsRE, our free web portal, and you can check in on all of your systems every morning if you wish. If you're not happy with the original generation MATE, I challenge you to take a new look at the MATE3. Respectfully yours, Phil Undercuffler Director of Strategic Platforms OutBack Power On Sunday, July 12, 2015, RE Ellison reelli...@gmail.com wrote: I doubt that Outback could change the Mate and improve it. I still find it difficult to deal with and switched to Magnum for that reason. In my opinion the “improvements” made to the MX 60 in moving to the FM 60 were not an improvement. I have a customer with 2 identical racks and the MX60 did better every time we checked. Just my opinion, Bob *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org');] *On Behalf Of *jay *Sent:* Sunday, July 12, 2015 12:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions Hi All, I’m with William, Its happened a number of times. But I doubt that outback is going to change anything with the mate 1. jay peltz power On Jul 12, 2015, at 9:00 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','toddc...@finestplanet.com'); wrote: i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to maintain his system. having people press buttons who dont understand their function or correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an expensive lesson. in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu settings and options. usually it is operator/customer error. todd bers.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
I wanted to expand on my prior post. Attached is a capture from a job where the CFL and LED lights in the house kept burning out. The generator was suspected (they always seemed to fail after the generator ran), but its voltage and frequency read normalon my Fluke 87, even a little bit low. The red trace is the current, the blue is the voltage. Note the voltage line runs off the page -- yep, the loads were seeing over 200v line to neutral, 400 L-L when charging due to the way that inverter and that generator's regulation circuit fought. I backed off the charging current until the peak voltage came back within line, there was still a spike but it wasn't sooo distorted. O'scopes and generators. Darned handy. Phil On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: There are two generator charging modes in the Radian -- Generator, and Support. Generator is also known as diode style charging (there's a diode symbol that shows up in the Mate3 screen when in this mode) because it's a simple circuit that allows the inverter to work with lower quality generators with poor regulation -- as long as the voltage is higher on that side of the circuit, energy will flow from the generator to the battery. Generators with less than ideal regulation will distort their waveform (see Jamo's reference to that very informative whitepaper), especially as loads increase or if reactive loads are present, but the battery will get charged. In Support mode, the Radian can operate in parallel with the generator, to both support loads that exceed the generator's rating but also to improve the load's power factor presented to the generator. If you're seeing spurious behavior with the customer's generator and one of the charging modes, try the other charging mode. BTW, I picked up an inexpensive USB o'scope a couple years ago from a company called Pico, it uses my laptop to be both the memory and screen. I will admit to being a bit of a gear geek, but the ability to see both voltage and current waveform overlaid on each other in real-world field conditions has been an eye opener. It's a permanent fixture in my meter bag nowadays. HTH, Phil On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Kevin Pegg kp...@energyalternatives.ca wrote: Hi Ray, This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and noise on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve. Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. Kevin -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Hi Kevin; I have both a comment and a question: Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. Ended up swapping out a lot
Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
There are two generator charging modes in the Radian -- Generator, and Support. Generator is also known as diode style charging (there's a diode symbol that shows up in the Mate3 screen when in this mode) because it's a simple circuit that allows the inverter to work with lower quality generators with poor regulation -- as long as the voltage is higher on that side of the circuit, energy will flow from the generator to the battery. Generators with less than ideal regulation will distort their waveform (see Jamo's reference to that very informative whitepaper), especially as loads increase or if reactive loads are present, but the battery will get charged. In Support mode, the Radian can operate in parallel with the generator, to both support loads that exceed the generator's rating but also to improve the load's power factor presented to the generator. If you're seeing spurious behavior with the customer's generator and one of the charging modes, try the other charging mode. BTW, I picked up an inexpensive USB o'scope a couple years ago from a company called Pico, it uses my laptop to be both the memory and screen. I will admit to being a bit of a gear geek, but the ability to see both voltage and current waveform overlaid on each other in real-world field conditions has been an eye opener. It's a permanent fixture in my meter bag nowadays. HTH, Phil On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Kevin Pegg kp...@energyalternatives.ca wrote: Hi Ray, This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and noise on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve. Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. Kevin -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Hi Kevin; I have both a comment and a question: Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. Kevin -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
There was a certification update the last year or so where UL standards on transformers changed. If you have an X240 that came with a 25, then it was from the old math. The X240s that ship under the new math have 20A breakers. Like you, I've installed tons of X240s with 25A breakers, but either one works. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: Phil Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on the x240 not 20's Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Kevin and Matt, Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I suspect that the 2P breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at close to its capacity, this could make a difference. Allan *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -Original Message- *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Matt James *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Kevin and Matt, Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I suspect that the 2P breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at close to its capacity, this could make a difference. Allan *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -Original Message- *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Matt James *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Wrenches, Allan’s key technical question is “when should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?” I’ve reviewed the various scenarios and options with our engineers and tech support team, and the one “watch out” issue that could potentially cause problems when replacing 120V legacy inverters with 120/240V replacements, is how the existing inverter bypass is configured. This is something that will need to be addressed whether the old system was 120V only or 120/240V with multiple 120V inverters. With a 120/240V inverter, the bypass must operate both L1 and L2 poles simultaneously. A common practice in the early days of solar was to use a double pole and single pole breaker combo with a special wiring arrangement and a mechanical interlock to bypass both input and output for each individual phase. As you note these were typically installed in a SqD QO403 3-pole load center, but I’ve also done a similar arrangement in other enclosures which could fit QOU breakers. This worked well enough back when the Trace 120V inverter was the defacto industry standard, as the two stacked inverters were really operating as two independent units, 180 degrees out of phase. However, this type of bypass cannot and should not be used with a 120/240V inverter. If you find this type of bypass in the old system, plan on replacing it with a modern equivalent as part of the upgrade. Other issues relating to upgrading the system would be constrained by site conditions and customer choice – ie, does the current generator have split-phase output capability, is there an L2 conductor already in the ground (or room in the conduit) for both the input from the generator and output to the house, does the customer want to run higher power loads in the future, perhaps run any water pumps at 240 instead of 120 and reduce the starting surges and potential flicker. I can’t think of a situation where a home wired for 120 can’t be fed with 120/240, although the reverse is not always the case. To answer the question regarding what is made where, the vast majority of our products and inverter lines are manufactured in Bellingham, Washington or in Suwanee Georgia (now Georgia might be a little foreign to some, but last I looked it’s still part of the US-of-A). Every Radian inverter, G series inverter and Extreme charge controller is made here in Washington State. We do have an international manufacturing policy where it makes strategic sense – solar is booming in the developing world, and some regions have local content provisions or taxation barriers that require in-country manufacturing so there are a couple inverter lines such as our VFX3024E for the Rest of World market which are made in India along with the FM60 and FM80 charge controllers. However, isn’t that what we want, US businesses succeeding in the global market and bringing that business home? We don’t have any manufacturing in China, nor is there any plan to do so – however, I’m going to take a moment on a soapbox here related to China and solar. China’s citizens look to the West and want access to a similar quality of life, and the more they burn dead dinos to get it the more we are all screwed. IMHO one of the best things that can happen for survivability on this planet is for China to strongly embrace renewables. Global solar market reports show massive deployment of PV throughout China and Asia at all levels, and I’m OK with that. Bring it on. Ray, I’d like to work with you on internet discounters, it’s not our intention to allow folks to undermine the market and devalue what reputable installers such as yourself bring to the table. However, I have to push back on bashing our technical support team. David, Katee, Jorge and the rest of the team work hard to provide trained and knowledgeable support for all of our customers, not just the ones that belong to some kind of loyalty club. The people answering the phones here have experience on the manufacturing line, service depot or education in Electrical Engineering, we’re proud to have a couple Veterans on the crew, and everyone goes through both our CTP and SEI training classes. If a couple of hiring notices in the past have caused you grief I apologize for that, but I challenge you to give our team another chance. Peace, Phil Philip Undercuffler Director, Strategic Platforms OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821 mobile www.outbackpower.com On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Tump t...@swnl.net wrote: Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA is always first choice, despite their price point. As with ANY inverter you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you a replacement.. Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set, works well with
Re: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's
I've picked up used laptop or printer power supplies at Goodwill or the local electronics recycler for a couple bucks. Take your reading glasses with you, and look for one with an output in the 24-30v range. Phil On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:08 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: For such a small amount of power you could consider using an energy limiting Class2 transformer as is/was used in old doorbells. You would have to put a bridge rectifier and bulk capacitor on the output to make DC, but that should be ok given the power levels. If you do this, make sure that the bridge rectifier and capacitor are physically very close to the transformer to reduce problems with diode reverse recovery losses which can stress the parts. Here's a link to Hammond transformers of that type, although they are no doubt available from many sources at most electrical supply houses. http://www.hammondmfg.com/ba.htm JARMO _ * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* *jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com* jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave d...@independentpowerllc.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/29/2015 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org -- We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less power than 29 Watts? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback control boards
Jay. I'm on a road trip with the family so I don't have access to pricing but I've sent a message to Matt and the crew to see what is what On Dec 20, 2014 10:32 AM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi all I'm looking for control boards to converter 2 GVFX 3648 to VFX. If anyone has some or knows where to get them ( outback won't sell them to me) Please let me know off list Thanks Jay Peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Aux Output on Outback Devices
The AUX output is protected by a PTC, which is like an analog auto-resetting thermal fuse. It should save you most of the time. However, PTCs are not calibrated devices, and the trip value changes based on resistance and impedance of the fault, temperature, lateness of day, distance from your shop, and whether the owner is looking over your shoulder. I don't want to depend on the PTC saving my bacon anymore than I want to use my car's airbags. Great to know it's there, never want to make its acquaintance. Sorry for the news, Phil On Dec 5, 2014 7:10 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Jay: Is this true for an FX manufactured in 2003? What version manual is this from? Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay peltz *Sent:* Friday, December 05, 2014 5:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aux Output on Outback Devices Hi William Page 23 of the VFX manual states will reset if short circuited, no fusing is required. Jay Peltz power On Dec 5, 2014, at 5:01 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Jay: I suspect shorting the Aux leads will kill an FX inverter. We traced the Aux PCB traces to the scorch marks on the control board, so it seemed pretty clear we had tested the scenario. William image003.jpg Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay peltz *Sent:* Friday, December 05, 2014 4:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aux Output on Outback Devices Hi William Supposed to be. I've tried them with too large of a relay and wouldn't work ( the relay that is). Dead short would be the same. But i did have a VFX 3648 many years ago that had 48v on the aux output. Stumped the hell out of outback. While talking to tech, they had me short the aux wires, and poof 1 dead inverter. Jay ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Fwd: Aqueous Hybrid Ion batteries
Aquion has developed a pretty interesting product and they're continuing to improve it -- I spoke with their engineers at SPI and they've recently figured out some updates that give stiffer voltage profile and therefore more effective energy. Energy density isn't their forte, but temperature and cycling apparently are, not to mention safety and nontoxic construction. Not bad for a box of salt water and carbon. I also appreciate that they give detailed spec sheets with multiple curves to help figure out performance at different rates. It is a battery that performs best when handled low and slow. Aquion's spec sheets and manuals are available on their website, you might need to register to get access but this link hopefully should work. http://info.aquionenergy.com/hs-fs/hub/147472/file-1917705156-pdf/1_Product_Documentation/AQ-SP-00018_A_Aquion_M100-L082_Product_Specification_Sheet.pdf While with any transformer-based inverter there are hard limits to the voltage window due to the fixed ratio, the Radian GS8048A and GS4048A have extended adjustment windows to better operate with new technologies like this -- we allow you to run the DC voltage all the way to the rails if you need to (Charge anywhere between 44-64VDC, LBCO down to 36VDC). When the voltage gets below 40-some-odd-volts the waveform will definitely be flat-topping, but it will work. As new battery technologies come to market that have different requirements than lead acid, you need more flexibility from the power electronics. We're just trying to give you more tools to work with. Hope this helps, Philip Undercuffler Director, Strategic Platforms OutBack Power Technologies 360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821 mobile On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Larry Crutcher la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: David, Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD. On 11/10/14 10:10 AM, Dave wrote: Wrenches, I have a customer with a grid-tied w battery back-up (formerly off-grid) with failing LA batteries. He found these batteries on the web and asked me to check them out. Anyone out there know anything about this AHI technology and or this company, Aquion Energy? *http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage* Thanks, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 208 3 phase Off Grid Inverter
You mentioned this is out of the country -- is it 230v line to neutral, or 120/208? OutBack's export Radian can do three phase, up to 72kW continuous. HTH, Phil On Tuesday, March 25, 2014, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: OK everyone is steering me towards the Sunny Island. I can probably justify the inverter cost difference to the customer, then I found the SMA Multicluster Box for the SI. It seems like a glorified AC Combiner and transfer switch box, but it retails for over $20K! Yikes. Do we have to use that for a 3 phase install, or are there much lower cost alternatives. This is out of the country and does not need to be NEC2014 compliant. (maybe NEC 1956 compliant would be about in keeping with the rest of the wiring...) This would be a budget buster for sure. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/25/2014 4:21 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Hi Ray, I have several 3-phase off-grid inverter/battery/generator systems out there. - SMA Sunny Island is the best. Can scale to at least 180 kW, maybe more. Reliable very solid. I have several sites going over 2 years without a single second of power outage. - Xantrex XW. It can work in a 3-ph config, but it's not as stable system. We have taken to preventatively rebooting the systems every 4 months and that helps a lot - at least the outage can be planned and on our terms. - Outback has had so many power quality nightmares I won't go there anymore. - I believe Magnum has a 3-ph option but haven't installed one yet. SMA inverters are more expensive. And they work very well. They also have a very good battery charging algorithm and integral gen start control. Kevin -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: March 24, 2014 6:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208 3 phase Off Grid Inverter Hi All; I'm exploring options for an off grid project with an existing 30 Kw Kohler wired for 208 vac 3 phase. The generator runs some 8 hp air compressors, so rewiring it is not an option. We're primarily interested in reducing gen run time from the current situation: 14 hrs/ day. So far, only the Outback VFX inverters seem capable of being wired in 208, 3 phase, but according to the manual they can only be stacked 1 inverter per leg. This limits the system to only 3 inverters total, or 10.8 kW. I would like expandability beyond this. 1) are there any other inverters available that I'm over looking? 2) Should I consider a transformer to convert from 208 vac/3phase to 240 vac/ singe phase? We're not going to even try to run the compressors, just the other single phase loads, mostly 120 vac, but we have a couple of small air conditioners, that are currently running on 208 single phase. I believe they would run fine on 240 vac, as they have a name plate rating at 230 vac. 3) We may possibly run 2 separate 3 inverter stacks and only tie together at the battery, but otherwise they would not be connected. This seems inefficient, and would require some load balancing of the various inverters. All help and discussion is greatly appreciated as always, ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits
Dave, I think the key reference is Section VIII, Storage Batteries, 690.71 Installation. (C) Current Limiting. A listed, current-limiting, overcurrent device shall be installed in each circuit adjacent to the batteries where the available short-circuit current from a battery or battery bank exceeds the interrupting or withstand ratings of other equipment in that circuit. The installation of current-limiting fuses shall comply with 690.16. You need to calculate the amount of current your batteries can provide into a fault, which is a function of capacity, internal resistance and a few other details your battery manufacturer should be able to provide. The OutBack 175/250A panel mount breakers have an AIC rating of 100,000 at 65VDC, 50,000 at 125VDC. If the fault current your two strings of batteries can provide is less than 100,000, you can parallel the two circuits. If not, you should provide overcurrent protection on each string. Class T fuses can be used to provide current limiting capability to within that range. Phil On Thursday, February 6, 2014, Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu wrote: All, I think that in the past, list discussions have talked about fusing of parallel battery circuits as a best practice, but it's required per 690.9 right? (text below from 2008 NEC) Also, if someone (don't look at me) really wants to use 2 parallel circuits of 12V batteries, what equipment is recommended to provide overcurrent protection? The installer is using Outback hardware (FW500?) and has two battery circuits combined in the battery enclosure and run to a Big Bus feeding the two 125A dc disconnects for two GVFX3648s. If you've read this far, this area is more your wheelhouse than mine. Thanks in advance! 690.9 Overcurrent Protection (A) Circuits and Equipment. Photovoltaic source circuit, photovoltaic output circuit, inverter output circuit, and storage battery circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected in accordance with the requirements of Article 240. Circuits connected to more than one electrical source shall have overcurrent devices located so as to provide overcurrent protection from all sources. Exception: An overcurrent device shall not be required for circuit conductors sized in accordance with 690.8(B) and located where one of the following apply: (a) There are no external sources such as parallel-connected source circuits, batteries, or backfeed from inverters. (b) The short-circuit currents from all sources do not exceed the ampacity of the conductors. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery venting issue
Allan, The International Fire Code (2006 version quoted below, confirm the version used in your region) give us clear guidance on the ventilation requirements for stationary battery systems, and provides both engineering parameters and prescriptive solutions clearly spelled out . These can be used to support your installation within a structure an inspector should be able to understand. 2006 International Fire Code 608.6 Ventilation. Ventilation of stationary storage battery systems shall comply with Sections 608.6.1 and 608.6.2. 608.6.1 Ventilation. Ventilation shall be provided in accordance with the International Mechanical Code and the following: 1. For flooded lead acid, flooded nickel-cadmium, and VRLA batteries, the ventilation system shall be designed to limit the maximum concentration of hydrogen to 1 percent of the total volume of the room; or 2. Continuous ventilation shall be provided at a rate of not less than 1 cubic foot per minute per square foot [1ft3 /min/ft2 or 0.0051 m3 /(s . m2 )] of floor area of the room. 608.6.2 Cabinet ventilation. When VRLA batteries are installed inside a cabinet, the cabinet shall be approved for use in occupied spaces and shall be mechanically or naturally vented by one of the following methods: 1. The cabinet ventilation shall limit the maximum concentration of hydrogen to 1 percent of the total volume of the cabinet during the worst-case event of simultaneous boost charging of all the batteries in the cabinet; or 2. When calculations are not available to substantiate the ventilation rate, continuous ventilation rate, continuous ventilation shall be provided at a rate of not less than 1 cubic foot per minute per square foot [1 ft3 /min/ft2 or 0.0051 m 3 /(s . m 2 )] Therefore, the installer needs to show that either (1) the maximum hydrogen concentration that can accumulate in the room is less than 1 percent of the total volume, or continuous ventilation needs to be provided to the room. The theoretical gassing rates of flooded lead acid batteries are: one Ampere-hour of charge will generate 427 ml of Hydrogen (H2) and 213 ml of Oxygen (O2) @77F, 1 atm. VRLA batteries are an order of magnitude more efficient in recombination and coulombic efficiency than flooded by their very nature, and produce a fraction of those numbers. Also, as you point out, a VRLA battery that is gassing is a VRLA battery in the process of being destroyed and there's only so much H2 inside. However, in accordance with 608.6.1.1 we shall use the absolute maximum gassing rate of 427ml of Hydrogen, to show a worst-case scenario of a unregulated charge. From there the installer can perform a simple calculation to show whether the design room volume and air exchange rate of the area in question will ensure the maximum concentration of Hydrogen remains beneath the required 1% level. If it helps, t here are UL1741 Listed enclosures with UR recognized batteries available on the market. For instance, OutBack's In tegrated Battery Racks are listed for use indoors to house batteries for use with a grid-interactive or standalone inverter for residential applications. Second, the EnergyCell batteries are a VRLA batteries, so 608.6.2 would apply. Per the installation manual of this Listed product, the product is naturally vented and meets the requirements of 608.6.2 method 1 when the EnergyCell or equivalent VRLA battery is used, and no additional ventilation of the battery rack is required. Good luck with it, Phil On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, I need a bit of help here if you have it. Since 2002 we have installed somewhere between 30 and 35 systems with sealed batteries installed in manufactured enclosures, originally Outback enclosures and in recent years Midnite MNBE enclosures. At least ten of these have been indoors in one form or another - usually a laundry or mechanical room. Our battery of choice is Concorde SunXtender. We have only added mechanical ventilation (Zephyr Power-Vent to outside) if the battery enclosure itself is sealed. Nearly all of these have been permitted and inspected systems, and we have never had a problem with the inspectors. Of course, we always vent flooded systems to the outside, nearly always using a Power Vent fan. Now we have. An AHJ failed a system for lack of ventilation, and our attempts to resolve it have not been effective. The Chief Electrical Inspector has weighed in, and we are right at the point of filing a Request for Code Interpretation with the New Mexico Electrical Division Technical Advisory Panel. I have not wanted to just add ventilation to pass inspection because of the precedent doing so is likely to set for future installations. The GC on the job supports my attempts to push back, as do the homeowners. The Chief Inspector thinks that the 700 square foot unheated room in which our system is installed is
Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance
not changed. Its pretty dumb too; battery storage could help improve the reliability of the grid. You can't retire yet folks, we have another battle to fight. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer* **303 505-8760* 303%20505-8760 On 10/10/2013 12:13 AM, Phil Undercuffler wrote: However, arbitrage (buying low and selling high) is one of the lousiest economic models for energy storage. Yes, perhaps you can make a buck or two if the delta is big enough. However, that's like driving forty miles in your 4x4 to use a dollar coupon instead of shopping at the grocery store down the block. There are just better ways to make a buck. At the end of the day, what should matter in NEM is what generated the energy that is exported. The customer should be able to maintain their battery by charging from grid, solar, or any combination. The batteries are not a balloon -- energy used to charge them doesn't come rushing back out. Batteries are like a bucket -- if the inverter can only sell what flows over the top, then it takes solar input to begin flowing. Ultimately, it's going to take a chorus of voices to get the CPUC to tell the utilities to shape up and stop obstructing these systems. If people stay silent, the utilities get their way. It's your industry, it's your business. It's your choice. Phil Undercuffler OutBack Power* **425-319-2821* 425-319-2821 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: *RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org*RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings:* **http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org*http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: * http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org*http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette:* **www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm*http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios:* **www.members.re-wrenches.org* http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance
I've been watching this thread and was uncertain whether to chime in, but
this affects multiple installers and businesses including other inverter
manufacturers, so I'm going to put my industry hat on and wade in, in
support of GTBB as a class.
This fight has been active since April - May, after the update to the RPS
guidebook which was intended to clarify the role of energy storage in the
RPS. The utilities are doing everything in their power to abolish net
energy metering (NEM), and they are cherry picking parts of this new
language as one way of eliminating an entire class of customers from NEM.
At first I thought it was just a bad interpretation, but more and more I
am being led to believe that folks high up at the utilities are passing
around the same sheets of music. Perhaps you have heard the message they
are using now, that solar is an unfair burden on the poor ratepayers.
Similarly, grid tie with battery backup is being tarred with language that
batteries are a non-RE generator and the utilities are just working to
protect the system.
There are numerous substantial benefits to energy storage on the grid, and
with AB 2514 we are seeing the beginning of an entire new era for the
industry, one that mirrors the early days of the solar programs in
California. However, arbitrage (buying low and selling high) is one of the
lousiest economic models for energy storage. Yes, perhaps you can make a
buck or two if the delta is big enough. However, that's like driving forty
miles in your 4x4 to use a dollar coupon instead of shopping at the grocery
store down the block. There are just better ways to make a buck.
At the end of the day, what should matter in NEM is what generated the
energy that is exported. The customer should be able to maintain their
battery by charging from grid, solar, or any combination. The batteries are
not a balloon -- energy used to charge them doesn't come rushing back out.
Batteries are like a bucket -- if the inverter can only sell what flows
over the top, then it takes solar input to begin flowing.
Ultimately, it's going to take a chorus of voices to get the CPUC to tell
the utilities to shape up and stop obstructing these systems. If people
stay silent, the utilities get their way. It's your industry, it's your
business. It's your choice.
Phil Undercuffler
OutBack Power
425-319-2821
On Wednesday, October 9, 2013, jay peltz wrote:
Hi William
I have been giving this some though.
As we know it makes no sense, now.
What don't we know about electric prices in the near future that might
make this
cost effective?
Jay
Peltz pow
On Oct 9, 2013, at 12:03 PM, William Miller
will...@millersolar.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'will...@millersolar.com');
wrote:
Friends:
** **
I have been informed of another article on this subject:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-07/battery-stored-solar-power-sparks-backlash-from-utilities.html
** **
The subject came up on this forum recently and most of us said or thought,
“how stupid, there is no good reason to ever do this, the efficiency losses
do not justify this!”
** **
Ironically, just a few days later one of us posted questions about how to
do something quite like this (SW Inverters in energy management mode).
** **
Food for thought…
** **
William
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery backup under attack in CA
Wrenches, Unfortunately, this is affecting all battery-based systems -- it's not limited to OutBack. SCE recently issued an External Memorandum stating their position. I've read the memorandum, but I've also read SCE's Rule 21 and their NEM tariff, and the utility's position is not supported by their own rules. These systems fully meet the requirements of the SCE Rule 21 and NEM Tariff. The new RPS Guidebook, which the SCE NEM Tariff uses to define permissible systems, allows for two classes of energy storage -- Integrated, and Directly Connected. With Directly Connected energy storage, the system can be charged by any number of sources. The customer is allowed to have onsite loads. Maintaining a battery is an onsite load. The only energy exported is from the renewable source, the PV array. SCE's position that the battery can never charge from the grid is simply not supported by their own rules, However, their current position has put a substantial barrier in place to homeowners that desire grid-tie with battery backup, and to businesses like your own that support this market. We need to push back against this position, and help people move forward with their renewable energy systems. I would ask any of you affected by this issue to press the CPUC to give SCE and the other utilities clear and specific guidance on this issue as soon as possible. Explain how this current impasse affects your business and your customers. Telephone: 866-849-8390 or 415-703-2074 Email: public.advi...@cpuc.ca.gov. Better yet, file a complaint with the CPUC, either as an informal complaint or as a formal complaint. Formal complaints carry far more weight, but take more work. More info on the process is available at http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/aboutus/Divisions/CSID/Public+Advisor/ Best regards, Philip Undercuffler Director, Product Management and Strategy OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821 mobile www.outbackpower.com On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:45 AM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote: Hi Wrenches, I bumped into this article about an Outback battery backup system being rejected by a utility in Southern CA: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/08/solar-battery-backup-under-attack-in-california?cmpid=SolarNL-2013-08-08 It sounds like the utility is rejecting the system because the batteries have the capability of feeding back to the grid. I'm not familiar enough with the Outback system to know how this would work. We are installing a pretty good amount of Sunny Island based battery backups these days but they don't have the capability of sending battery power to the grid. Thoughts? -August *August Goers* Luminalt Energy Corporation o: 415.641.4000 m: 415.559.1525 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Re: Dual Radian install
William, The Radian was designed to be big enough so that one inverter could handle most residential applications, but also easy to parallel so that very large systems could be assembled by simply repeating the same building blocks, similar to how installers build up 100kW PV systems using string inverters. However, when you have systems of this size the potential available fault currents become such that we wanted to move away from using ganged breakers and metal sliding plates, especially when double-pole, double-throw safety switches in a range of sizes, both automatic and manual, are commonly available from many sources. With larger systems, the easiest way to meet 705.12 is to install a dedicated “Inverter Combiner” AC load center fed by a supply side tap, similar to what is typically done with larger grid-dependent PV systems. It just seems far more cost effective to use standard, off-the-shelf components which are probably on your truck already, rather than custom sheet metal sized for every possible inverter combination. You could use a service-rated 6-12 panel for up to three Radian inverters, or 8-16 for four, etc. Repeat an identical size panel on the output to gather the inverter outputs, then send the combined feed to the house protected load center. If you have a generator as a second AC source, then pick up a third panel of the same size. While we designed the prewired GSLC enclosures to provide a simple, quick solution for single inverter systems, we also offer the bare GSLC for multiple inverter systems as well as to allow full customization. Each GSLC has space for 18 AC or DC panel mount breakers. In a dual inverter system like the one you're planning, we’ve seen some cool installations where one GSLC has been assigned to AC, and one to PV. It works out pretty slick. Each GSLC comes with its own shunt, so systems with up to three Radians can easily use the multi-channel FLEXnet DC system monitor to give a full SOC picture for all inputs and outputs. Each Radian inverter should have its own GSLC, and pick up two 175A breakers per inverter. If the Inverter Combiner boxes are a distance from the inverter stack or out of visual range, then you will need to install 50A AC breakers for the appropriate inputs and outputs. Me personally, I’d install these breakers at the inverter in all systems, as it gives a positive disconnect directly related to the inverter directly above – good peace of mind for anyone who comes later. There should be a finger’s width of space between every pair of inverters, to allow clearance for the door swing. Always update the firmware, as we’re constantly expanding the capabilities and features. You don’t need a computer or internet connection on the site if you download the latest firmware for both the inverter and the MATE3, unzip it and copy to an SD card before going out into the field. Update the MATE3 first. I hope this helps, and thanks everyone for the good feedback. Philip Undercuffler Director, Product Management and Strategy OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821 mobile www.outbackpower.com On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, Robin at Midnite read my post to William and added the following off list: Allan, thanks for adding us into the Wrenches discussion. We do have E-Panels set up for single as well as dual Radians. I do not think OutBack does? We have a Master/Slave set up where the Master has the AC bypass set up for two inverters. OutBack makes you buy an additional outboard transfer switch. We also have the large battery combiner made for connecting either two Radians or four SMA Sunny Islands. OutBack does not have this. We also have a 2 piece back plate that holds all of this stuff. OutBack doesn’t. The installers I have worked with prefer the MidNite E-Panel over the OutBack since you can actually get to the breakers on the MidNite. It is a bit less expensive also. ** **Thanks, Robin **I would also suggest a couple of other things... with four Radians, you need to be able to handle 1,400 amps of DC current (each Radian uses 2 2/0 cables per pole and two 175A breakers). Robin has worked with us to develop an 850 A DC disconnect system (four SI5048 with 125A DC breakers and one Radian at 350 A), and may be able to assist with this greater need. ** **Also, you mention a 200A DC recombiner - I assume you are aware of the 60/80A limitation per controller, and that they can't be paralleled on the input side.No reply needed. Allan Original Message *Subject: * Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Radian install *Date: * Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:14:47 -0600 *From: * Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.comal...@positiveenergysolar.com *Reply-To: * al...@positiveenergysolar.com, RE-wrenches
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits
Ray,
690 does offer the protection, it's just that most maufacturers haven't
made it easy.
690.71 Installation
(C) Current Limiting. A listed, current-limiting, overcurrent device shall
be installed in each circuit adjacent to the batteries where the available
short-circuit current from a battery or battery bank exceeds the
interrupting or withstand ratings of other equipment in that circuit. The
installation of current-limiting fuses shall comply with 690.16.
The telcom industry has been doing this for years. Their norm is to have
each string of batteries on a shelf, and terminate at a breaker. Each
string then is combined at a bus bar or plate, to help ensure equal current
on each string. The loads and charging sources all come to that same bus
bar. It has some advantages, as individual strings can be monitored and
serviced without taking the entire system down.
FWIW, OutBack makes a battery rack for AGM batteries with series string
overcurrent and disconnects on every string. It's also to my knowledge the
first UL1741 Listed device available -- the other stuff I've seen is either
not listed, or is trading on old 508a standards. AGMs might not be for
every installation, but for jobs where they are appropriate this could be a
good, code-compliant solution.
Phil Undercuffler
OutBack Power
On Friday, April 5, 2013, Ray Walters wrote:
I just finished a rewire and we kept the Ananda power center, Allan :-)
Back when we used class T fuses more they were always over sized relative
to Heinemann breakers.
400 amp class T fuse = 250 amp breaker= 4/0 cable
200 amp class T fuse = 175 amp breaker= 2/0 cable
I still think class T fuses are superior in some ways to breakers: they
have better interrupt capacity and trip faster in a short circuit condition.
However, If you spend too much time thinking about and looking at the trip
curves, you'll break your brain and special order some weird fuses and
breakers. (anybody need a 350 amp class T fuse?)
Just follow the inverter manufacturer's recommendations and all will be
well.
On the other hand, William has brought up a topic I have harped on for
years: Having the OCPD in the cabinet doesn't protect the majority of the
circuit. Class T fuses at the battery terminals do, but they're not rated
for the corrosive environment. I have thrown a few class T fuses away that
had acid eating away at the ends.
I don't have the solution, but I will continue to point out that this is a
real problem. Dropping a wrench across the battery terminals can lead to a
spectacular failure that not only can cause a fire, but might even cause a
battery explosion, yet NEC offers no protection.
We use insulated wrenches from experience, and hope for the best.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/5/2013 8:29 PM, William Miller wrote:
Friends:
Good topic. Some questions:
1. Most manufacturer's present an installation guide that shows one OCPD
in the battery circuit and that is in the BOS cabinet. This means the
battery leads are unprotected. Do we need an OPCD at the battery terminals?
2. Class T fuses are generally recommended for this application. The data
shows them as fast acting. Is this a problem? Will they act too fast
and open during normal surge loads?
Thanks in advance!
William Miller
Troy,
Overcurrent device size is matched to the conductor size. The inverse time
constant nature of an overcurrent device can typically handle the surge
currents as long as conductor sizing has truly been done correctly for the
conductor. Circuit breakers are preferred to fuses because they can be
reset.
There has been volumes written on this issue. The constant current at
lowest battery voltage should be used, plus the ac ripple content on the
battery circuit. This is usually a much larger conductor than your average
designer will plan for. The best thing is to look at Midnight, Outback, and
Schneider and see what size overcurrent devices they require for their
products. That will give you a good clue as to how to size the conductor
and overcurrent device.
Bill.
*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:_e({},
'cvml', 're-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org'); [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:_e({},
'cvml', 're-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org');] *On Behalf Of *Troy
Harvey
*Sent:* Friday, April 05, 2013 3:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits
I've got a question about battery string fusing. Typically we size the
wire from the batteries to the inverter based on continuous rating
procedures (max power/efficiency)*125%.
However a 6kW inverter, can peak at 12kW for 5-10 seconds, doubling the
source current. That is no big deal for the wire, because it is a short
time frame... little heat will be generated
Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question
OutBack's Radian does AC input support, which can be applied to either a generator or even to grid. Phil On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:19 PM, John Berdner john.berd...@solaredge.comwrote: SMA Sunny Island also does this but also discharges battery in parallel with the generator to create a “virtual generator” that is larger than the actual generator. Just set the max generator current and it does the rest. ** ** Best Regards, ** ** John Berdner General Manager, North America ** ** [image: SmallBannerPictEngnew] ** ** SolarEdge Technologies, Inc. 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA *(*Please note of our new address.)* T: 510.498.3200, X 747 M: 530.277.4894 ** ** *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:14 PM *To:* William Miller *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question ** ** William, Yes, that's my understanding. Outback acknowledged this to me years ago. Allan *Allan Sindelar* al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer *Positive Energy, Inc.* 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 *505 424-1112* www.positiveenergysolar.com ** ** ** ** On 1/29/2013 9:28 PM, William Miller wrote: Allan: Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with Generator Support, and the Outback inverters are not? William Miller At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote: This is going back several years... The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of the SW series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In many cases (and especially with these small generators) we want to set the max amps in as high as possible to minimize charging time and maximize C/rate. Yet a surge load can momentarily exceed the max amps setting. I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite sensitive AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge load (such as a refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set close to the generator's capacity. This incident was specific to a Honda 3000i. In contrast, Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when overloaded - not good for the generator, but also not likely to trip the output breaker. This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your question. Allan ** ** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply immediately to the sender. *P* Please think of the environment before printing this email ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image001.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] off grid PV connected to generator
Eric, Good questions, and you hit on a number of topics so let me see if I can address them one at a time, not necessarily in chronological order. Yes, the optimal application for the GTFX / GVFX inverter series is grid tie with battery backup. If you just want backup to the grid, the traditional FX is a great solution. If you need extended run-time and want to integrate a generator, then the Radian series is a better solution because it can not only integrate both grid and generator, but it can change its operating parameters based on which input it's connected to. The SW, XW and Radian inverters are all capable of operating on-grid (grid-interactive or backup) or off-grid (with or without a generator). However, none will automatically disconnect the PV when the genny auto-starts, nor would I suggest that they should. Realistically, the system should only start the genny when the batteries are near depletion -- if it's started, the batteries need all the help they can get. Rather, the generator should only be disconnected (turned off) when the batteries reach the absorb setpoint. BTW, I can't speak for everyone but none of those inverters have that functionality, at least not yet. With 600 Watts of connected PV, I wouldn't worry about disconnecting the PV. Even with a small battery bank, the sun will set before that size of array drives the bank anywhere close to an absorb voltage. Add another zero to the PV size and my answer would be different, of course. Also, if you do wind up installing an automatic transfer switch with a battery-based inverter system, don't allow the ATS to control the generator starting, even if that flies against every tradition of the generator sales guy. You don't want the genny running through every minute of the power outage, you want the system to start the genny only when the batteries are low. Good luck with it, and enjoy the sun! Phil On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 1:50 PM, SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com wrote: Further, I recently installed a GVFX for a customer. I'm hearing from certain sources that the grid-tied line of inverters from Outback are not designed to interface with a generator. Really?? I was told by Outback to install a transfer switch line/supply side of the inverter; that this was the only way to interface the genny with the inverter; that the AC Hot In could come from grid or a genset. And indeed, this is the only way I can figure out how to get the genny to charge the batteries when the grid goes down. But then again, I don't have the extensive electrical background that allows me to think outside the box as often as I would like...that's why I'm posing my query here for the pros. In this Outback install I have to again advise the homeowner to open the PV breaker to the inverter during generator operation, right? Even though he has a modest 600W (STC) array and an 8.5kW Kohler genset. Hardly the opportunity for solar to feed back to the genny under the most sunny and cool of days. I'm more concerned with the Enphase install. The Xantrex SW series inverters are fully capable of operating on-grid or off-grid with a genset. So do those inverters automatically disconnect the PV when the genny auto-starts? And with the Outback, is the Mate supposed to do the same (as long as the genny is operated by the auto-start and not a transfer switch)? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] mate + flexnet DC
Jay, the flexnet dc requires at least one inverter or charge controller, plus a hub. The device is powered by the inverter/controller's power supply. Phil On Sunday, January 13, 2013, jay peltz wrote: Hi All, Can you use a Mate 1 with only a flexnet dc? IE no hub, or inverter or CC? thanks, jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:; Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with BB
On Sunday, September 2, 2012, Richard L Ratico wrote: If the clients have a Trimetric or similar meter, perhaps they could be trained to power some loads with their inverter, while simultaneously charging their batteries and minding the charge rate, rather than tweaking the CC setup. Make hay while the sun shines so to speak, particularly when the battery is small relative to the array. Dick --- You wrote: Thanks Dan/Dick and Larry $E2Ai My concern was too high a charge rate, particularly when the batteries are cycled during or after an outage when the controllers are delivering maximum current and the inverter is not selling, yet not wanting to limit the charge controllers when we$E2Aore back in grid tied mode. Outback noted that you can just limit the controllers during extended outages, but I would prefer that customers not have to make adjustments to the charge rates. What I failed to consider is the particularly high charge rates that AGMs are able to withstand compared to FLAs. With a few tweaks to the system design we can easily hit a ~ .25C rate which is ideal for the batteries. I like the perspective of the inverter as diversion controller when it$E2Aos in sell mode. Thanks again for your help! Rich From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:; [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:;] On Behalf Of d...@foxfire-energy.com javascript:; Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 11:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with BB I'm with Dick. I liken grid tied inverters to diversion controllers. MPPT charge controllers (In Grid Tie Mode / talking to a HUB), pretty much just track a max power from the array. Good luck. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with BB From: richard.l.rat...@valley.net javascript:; (Richard L Ratico) Date: Sun, September 02, 2012 9:16 am To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:; Rich, If I understand your question, I think you're missing the functioning of the inverter. Working independently of the charge controller, it will sell to prevent overcharging the batteries. Correctly configuring the inverter's voltage thresholds accomplishes this. Dick Ratico --- You wrote: Wrenches, I'm have a mental block with battery backup systems such as the Outback Radian. Perhaps someone can help me get over it! Essentially these systems sell back power off the top of the battery bank and the array is maintaining the state of charge of the battery bank through traditional charge controllers. If you have a modest battery bank sized for limited use on critical circuits and a good size array for the benefit of net metering I would think it would be necessary to limit the current the charge controllers are capable of delivering to the battery bank to prevent damage to the batteries when the controllers are Bulking or Absorbing, but then it would seem that we limiting the utility of the larger array. If the current from the controllers was not limited they will self-limit as voltage rises, plus I suppose they will mostly be in float mode except when the batteries are cycled but again it seems that we are limiting the capability of the array compared to a straight grid tied system with a traditional grid tied only inverter. An example would be a 8000 watt array using a couple of flexmax80 controllers with a string of 8 - L16 AGMs feeding a Radian. What am I missing here? Thanks Rich --- end of quote --- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org javascript:; Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Sounds like a case of bad design, misrepresentation to the customer and not understanding the equipment. If they have FX3048T inverters, they cannot sell excess RE generation (and I'm going to be gracious and set aside for a moment any assumptions about the installation of these particular turbines, or ability to produce RE power) to the grid. Therefore, they either can operate the protected loads off-grid by using the HBX mode to drop the grid, cycling their batteries, and hopefully charging them from the wind's input. Alternately, they can put the inverters into backup mode to protect the downstream loads from a utility outage. That's probably what they are doing now, as it's the default when that inverter sees an AC input. The offgrid FX assumes the AC input is generator, so figures if you're running a genny you don't want the charger to go silent. The batteries are at float, and the turbines are producing squat -- and that's not because of tower height or siting or turbine quality, it's because the batteries are full and the loads are being supplied by the grid and there's nowhere to put excess energy. You can cycle the batteries and pray for enough RE generation to keep the batteries charged. Or float the batteries and let the turbines be, well, yard art. If you can't sell the power back to the utility, the batteries will sit in float and the RE generation will go into regulation. Or you can swap out the FX for GTFX inverters and sell. The GTFX inverter has the additional advantage in it knows the AC input is grid, and won't float the batteries from grid power. That by itself will reduce the AC consumed from the utility. Plus, you get the benefit of selling the great excess RE. If you don't want to go full-bore utility-interactive the Radian has an additional capability to offset utility power with RE power and not cycle the batteries, but it's generally better to be utility interactive whenever possible. Mainly it sounds like a matter of figuring out what the client wants to achieve, and then setting up the right equipment in the best way to get that job done. The last handful of guys didn't do that, hopefully you will be able to help them understand this, and then make this system right. And get it in writing. Best wishes for this, Phil On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Kent Osterberg k...@coveoregon.com wrote: Jesse, Sometimes the best thing you can do for a customer is document, in writing, what's wrong. And walk away if they aren't willing to fix it. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/24/2012 6:36 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: Im with you on the wisdom of it. The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid tie, but there are very few people that understand the off-grid applications (DT is the only person I think is worth listening to.) The contractor they chose was the only contractor the home owners spoke to that lacked any type of certification, not that that means anything. The homeowner told them what they wanted to do and the contractor said okay. Even though it was a poor idea. I was shown email conversations between the two. Of course there is always two sides to these stories... The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge two battery banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters. Both inverters were also tied to the homes panelboard to help charge the bank in-case of low wind. The two Outbacks fed a 100A panelboard that had a few loads from the home wired to it (well pump, furnace, sump, various receptacles) The panel also has a bypass switch that allows it to bypass the inverters all together and use straight grid power to run the loads. The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers, the contractor supplied the inverters and electrical BOS and the 16 MK 12V batteries. Another contractor came up to program the setpoints. I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I keep finding them up here, its getting a little old. I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80 feet or to scrap both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the want to hire me, what I say goes and if I say it all comes out to start over, that's what happens. On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in this application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters (board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid (internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an outage to back up. the only additional use the system would bring to their bill is re-floating the batteries occasionally. with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house ups. i wonder what the intention or original design was supposed to do? todd On Friday, August 24, 2012
Re: [RE-wrenches] Small battery bank vs too large array
Hi all, I just got a correction from Darren - global charge control is in the Mate3, and therefore works with any FM or MX controller that has the GT mode. It uses the current sense from the FN-DC and the GT mode signal to control the output of the controllers. Sorry for any confusion Phil On Jul 20, 2012 4:11 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Phil, Good explanation of the feature. When did GCC make it into the firmware, and can the older ones be updated? It sounds like a perfect solution for some of my installations. On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.comwrote: OutBack implemented Global Charge Control in the FM charge controllers a while back, based on the input of the good folk at SELF who worked to power a number of hospitals and clinics in Haiti after the earthquake. In some of those systems, the PV array was based on the typical running consumption of the hospital, in the 30 - 100 kW if I remember right, and the battery bank was relatively modest. However, on the weekends and holidays without the normal AC loads the PV input was considerably more than the battery could absorb without destructive heating, something like a C2 or C5 rate. Global Charge Control is implemented using the MATE3, a FN-DC and FM charge controllers set to GT mode. You set a high charge current limit in the M3, and then it monitors the charge current going to the batteries. In normal operating mode the controllers stay in wide open mode, harvesting as much power as possible. However if the loads drop and the total current from the charging sources begin exceed the global charge limit, the system compensates and the controllers back off to prevent sending too much current to the batteries. In today's world of PV modules being cheaper than diesel, we're seeing a lot more systems that can use this tool. Hope this helps, Phil On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 7:56 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: I didn't see that Brian T had the same idea until after I sent that email off to Allan... boB On 7/19/2012 7:53 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, I forwarded Brian's post on to Robin at Midnite, as I thought it was an interesting idea. Below is his response, as well as boB's. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com Allan, It is simpler than what is being suggested. The reason they want to limit to 20 amps is because the battery doesn’t need anymore than that. The controller will automatically limit the charge current as the battery gets full. If a large load is turned on, the controller will try to refill the battery up to its capacity. The 80 amps will quickly be reduced because the voltage will rise to the point where the charge tapers off. There is nothing else that needs to be done. If the problem is that the battery bank is too small for a big controller, the best answer is to get more batteries. A 80 amp charger into a 200 amp hour battery is going to raise the battery voltage so quick, it will not affect the battery at all. By the way, discharging a battery at 60 or 80 amps is probably going to do damage to a small battery also. We do have an input on the Classic that could probably be programmed to do as requested. That input feature has yet to be implemented. I’m sure we will have discussions about this when the time comes to write the input code. Maybe this feature will be designed in, but it doesn’t sound like it is a very good feature to spend a bunch of time on. After all, the main problem is that the battery bank is just too darned small. Bob, Tom and Ryan do you have any comments on the subject? Thanks, Robin One idea I had in mind was to have an option, in software, to limit the current into the battery, when the charging current goes above some set threshold. The controller would have to get its information from the battery monitor over the network. If it is a grid tie system and grid is there and GT inverter is selling, then no problem... The controller can work at its full output. If grid or loads go away, then the CC will know and it can throttle back at that time. We don't have a battery monitor yet, but we will have one. This will be one of the settings as well as Re-Bulk based on state of charge, ending amps and those types of things. boB On 7/19/2012 8:34 PM, maver...@mavericksolar.com wrote: I say it is waste of time. 1. AGM batteries can take the high current and you are right, the absorb voltage is reached and the absorb current
Re: [RE-wrenches] Small battery bank vs too large array
OutBack implemented Global Charge Control in the FM charge controllers a while back, based on the input of the good folk at SELF who worked to power a number of hospitals and clinics in Haiti after the earthquake. In some of those systems, the PV array was based on the typical running consumption of the hospital, in the 30 - 100 kW if I remember right, and the battery bank was relatively modest. However, on the weekends and holidays without the normal AC loads the PV input was considerably more than the battery could absorb without destructive heating, something like a C2 or C5 rate. Global Charge Control is implemented using the MATE3, a FN-DC and FM charge controllers set to GT mode. You set a high charge current limit in the M3, and then it monitors the charge current going to the batteries. In normal operating mode the controllers stay in wide open mode, harvesting as much power as possible. However if the loads drop and the total current from the charging sources begin exceed the global charge limit, the system compensates and the controllers back off to prevent sending too much current to the batteries. In today's world of PV modules being cheaper than diesel, we're seeing a lot more systems that can use this tool. Hope this helps, Phil On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 7:56 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: I didn't see that Brian T had the same idea until after I sent that email off to Allan... boB On 7/19/2012 7:53 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, I forwarded Brian's post on to Robin at Midnite, as I thought it was an interesting idea. Below is his response, as well as boB's. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com Allan, It is simpler than what is being suggested. The reason they want to limit to 20 amps is because the battery doesn’t need anymore than that. The controller will automatically limit the charge current as the battery gets full. If a large load is turned on, the controller will try to refill the battery up to its capacity. The 80 amps will quickly be reduced because the voltage will rise to the point where the charge tapers off. There is nothing else that needs to be done. If the problem is that the battery bank is too small for a big controller, the best answer is to get more batteries. A 80 amp charger into a 200 amp hour battery is going to raise the battery voltage so quick, it will not affect the battery at all. By the way, discharging a battery at 60 or 80 amps is probably going to do damage to a small battery also. We do have an input on the Classic that could probably be programmed to do as requested. That input feature has yet to be implemented. I’m sure we will have discussions about this when the time comes to write the input code. Maybe this feature will be designed in, but it doesn’t sound like it is a very good feature to spend a bunch of time on. After all, the main problem is that the battery bank is just too darned small. Bob, Tom and Ryan do you have any comments on the subject? Thanks, Robin One idea I had in mind was to have an option, in software, to limit the current into the battery, when the charging current goes above some set threshold. The controller would have to get its information from the battery monitor over the network. If it is a grid tie system and grid is there and GT inverter is selling, then no problem... The controller can work at its full output. If grid or loads go away, then the CC will know and it can throttle back at that time. We don't have a battery monitor yet, but we will have one. This will be one of the settings as well as Re-Bulk based on state of charge, ending amps and those types of things. boB On 7/19/2012 8:34 PM, maver...@mavericksolar.com wrote: I say it is waste of time. 1. AGM batteries can take the high current and you are right, the absorb voltage is reached and the absorb current is tapered rather quickly. Current generation charge controllers are rather fast at the transitions. I have a bunch of data from a system with a PentaMetric that shows the battery bank going to absorb voltage at grid tie, during cloud events, but only for a few seconds at a time. 2. A properly designed GTBB system should cover the connected loads for 24 hours of each sunny day, at a minimum. Keep in mind, off grid systems are designed for that, and 3 days + of backup, etc. 3. I would say, based on my experience, the minimum battery bank should be 400Ah. I personally try to set it at 600Ah (48V). It is a backup system after all. But the key is the customer's expectations...who are they going to call after the lights go out?
Re: [RE-wrenches] mounting hardware and U.L.
I don't think it's formally ratified, certified and adopted, but UL2703 is the new proposed Standard for Mounting Systems, Mounting Devices, Clamping/Retention Devices, and Ground Lugs for Use with Flat-Plate Photovoltaic Modules and Panels. Also check out SolarABCs.org for an update, there is a new report on this topic. Phil On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Jay Peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Is unistrut UL? Kay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2012, at 6:36 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf ma...@pvthawaii.com wrote: Does anyone know whether there are U.L. standards when it comes to PV mounting hardware? That is, are there any mounting hardware manufacturers (UniRac, Professional Solar Products, DPW, Schletter) who have achieved U.L. listing/approval for their stuff? After using PSP for the past 12 years here on the Big Island of Hawaii, now, all of a sudden the new building division head is taking an interest as to whether PSP hardware is U.L. something or other. So very frustrating Thanks, marco ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid to Grid-Connected -essential loads
Benn, If the client prefers the independence and thought of remaining primarily offgrid, has sufficient PV and battery for his loads, but wants to use the grid as his generator then HBX can really be a great solution. I'll take exception to William's comments -- with the FX you can set grid charging separately from HBX, no double conversion required. If the batteries get low because of bad weather or bad in-laws, HBX simply transfers the loads over to the grid. You can program the system to recharge with either grid or renewables. With that PV array and battery ratio, it shouldn't take long to refill the batteries purely from solar. Grid-tie can also be a good solution as every electron the system can generate goes to good use, either powering loads or spinning the meter backwards. In addition, the batteries don't cycle so should last longer. However, your client's 9kW of array is more than two GVFX inverters can process. In addition, talk with your inspector and utility first. They might require the entire system be brought up to modern code standards before allowing interconnection. Depending upon how old the downstream wiring and components are, that might be easy, might be hard. In either case, if you have an X240 for OB Stacking it will need to come out. Anytime you have a battery based system and grid, you will need an upstream panel and a downstream panel, even if you keep the entire house on the PV system. You already have the downstream covered, but Dan's right about needing a service rated upstream panel, and you will likely need to move the Neutral-ground bond to this panel as most inspectors will require the bond to be at the first point of disconnect and point of highest potential fault current. Make sure you float all the neutrals in the existing AC Flexware as part of the retrofit. If you go with the grid-tie, the upstream panel will need to be larger than 100A to comply with 705, Dan was a little off on that. With a battery based inverter, you only need to calculate based on the grid interactive component, but still a 100A loadcenter isn't enough to allow more than ~4.8kW in selling. Best wishes with the project, whichever direction you take. Phil ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace Change out
Bill, If reducing the input and charging amps allow the inverter to stay connected to the generator, then I don't think you have an inverter problem, you more likely have a generator tuning problem. Inverters rarely half break -- for the most part they either work, or they don't. Do a simple tune-up, plugs and wires, change the filters. Check the fuel supply to the generator -- use a manometer to check the pressure while under full load. Isolate and test the system one step at a time -- generator to simple resistive loads, then add inverter for charging but with the house loads disconnected, then bring the whole system online together. I've seen cases where the appliances in the house caused just enough surge to make the generator stumble, which caused the inverter to drop the generator. BTW, one of the best tools to have on a troubleshooting-a-generator-charging call is an oscilloscope -- I can't begin to tell you how much trouble and grief it can save. I picked up a Picoscope a couple years ago, it's a USB connected device which uses a laptop computer for power, memory and display. Best thing since sliced bread, highly recommended. Good luck with it, Phil On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 6:21 PM, frenergy frene...@psln.com wrote: Wrenches, I have a customer that may be having some issues with the reliability of his 11 year old Trace4024. If my current fix doesn't solve the problem, I have suggested having the unit fixed, which I think still happens on these puppies. I have also suggested replacing it with either an Outback 3524 or a Magnum MS 4024. He is now running a 1 HP Submersible pump ala autoformer along with the usual array of house loads. The issue is the inverter accepting and then rejecting the generator power, which I have been watching recent comments here regarding this issue. I have not thoroughly checked out pump wiring (was apparently already done by the well/pump guy, whom is reputable), but have checked the output of the Kohler 8.5 genny and Hz and voltage appear stable with and without load. So far I've gone the route of programming in a few less amps on the battery charging and AC2 IN functions. The inverter seems to be happy with new settings, this new programming was just done a few hours ago. So this may be a more generic question for those with more experience than I: Are both the OB and Magnum inverters considered equally capable of replacing the Trace? I guess I'm thinking mainly of that pump, but are there other considerations? Thanks Folks Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849/6544 fax solar powered since 1982 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] dry battery issue
Hi Chris, There's some good advice on the Surrette website, both in their FAQ, troubleshooting and solar battery user's manuals. http://www.surrette.com/content/tech-faqs#dry http://www.surrette.com/content/activating-instructions-dry-charged-batteries-600?phpMyAdmin=0610e516bf803196b5feee0b1ad65c08phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6 http://www.surrette.com/content/battery-user-manual One thing I remember Jamie telling me a while ago was that it will take longer to activate the battery if humidity or moisture has gotten into the cell. I don't remember the technical reason for that, just that the drier you keep 'em, the better they store. The one time I had to add electrolyte to a battery (other than my motorcycle battery), the acid came in an interesting bottle in a box packaging with a handy flexible spout. Got it from the local NAPA. Clip the spout, and the rest is easy. I'd definitely have acid-resistant bib and long gloves, and absolutely positively good eye protection, and a bag of baking soda from the warehouse store. Expect to burn some generator run-time in the activation process -- you want to make sure that the new cell is brought up in line with all the rest, and that may take some time. Phil --- When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy. Do we use them? Oh, no! We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property. There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces. -- Thomas Edison -- On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Chris Daum ch...@oasismontana.com wrote: ** Dear Wrenches: I have a customer who most likely has a dead cell in his battery bank and wants to replace it with a dry replacement battery he has on hand. The battery bank is made up of (24) 2ks-33PS batteries in series for a 48 volt system. I haven’t activated a dry battery before and expect I will not hear back from Surrette before I head out to check specific gravities tomorrow. I’m wondering what the procedure is for adding electrolyte to a battery so it can be added into a string? ** ** As always, appreciate the input. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules
We've got an array of Silicon Energy modules out back, and in the interests of scientific discovery and procrastinating from what I really am supposed to be doing, Kelly, Seth and I just ran a few experiments to see if we can quantify the amount of irradiation that makes it through the array. Using a Kyocera module as our reference, we measured ISC with the module in the plane of the array, then moved the module to the same orientation but approximately 12 feet behind and in the shade of the SE array, and again measured ISC. Sun conditions were light wispy clouds, guesstimated 800 W/M2 (pretty darned good for Arlington WA this time o' year), 10:30 local time. We measured 5.9A ISC in front of the array, and 610 milliamps when in the shade the array, leading us to say that just over 10% of the available sun will make it to your orchids. It should be noted that there is a opaque backing behind each SE cell, so the only light that makes it through is through the intercell gaps. I've used Sanyo doubles before, and in those modules the cells are slightly translucent, so the sun is somewhat visible through the body of the cell itself as well -- sort of like looking through very dark sunglasses. In either case, the illumination on objects behind the array is a dappled, dynamic light. As Bill says, it's pretty cool from an aesthetic point of view. My personal .02 is that there is no finer place to put an array than a shade structure using clear modules. It keeps everything off the roof, gives shade and makes for a premium installation option. Phil --- When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy. Do we use them? Oh, no! We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property. There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces. -- Thomas Edison -- On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill Appreciate the feedback. One of the questions that I'm seeking to determine- how much light will filter through the spaces between the cells to the surface below? Lets say for someone that wants to grow orchids- they need low light, as an example. Wondering how much light is diffused through the panels to be able to do things like grow orchids and or have filtered light to work? As an example: Do any of you have irradiance measurements on any carports that have done bifacials and determined how many watts sq m are below? Keith -- *From:* Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com *To:* 'Keith Cronin' electrich...@yahoo.com; 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Tuesday, November 1, 2011 11:44 AM *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules Keith, This is easy to test. Simple take an irradiance sensor, turn it upside-down and test the irradiance on the bottom surface of any PV array. It will vary greatly based on exposure to reflected light and so on, but it will rarely be above 100 W/m^2. 10% improvement is an absolute maximum for any bifacial technology, and that is on the high side. Any claims above 10% are ignoring the physics of sunlight, reflectance of typical materials, and PV. Nothing wrong with bi-facials. They are beautiful to look at. I would buy them based on aesthetics, not on performance. Bill. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Keith Cronin *Sent:* Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:04 PM *To:* RE-Wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules Hi Was wondering if any of you have installed bifacial modules and know what the % of light that comes through to a surface below the modules? Looking for a canopy type of installation/ application and wondered if you have any #'s? Thank you~ Aloha, Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery voltage set points and specific gravity
Ian, if you're seeing discrepancies between cells then an EQ charge is the only real solution. If an EQcharge hasn't resolved the imbalances, you probably haven't achieved it. One common mistake I saw among my neighbors was confusing unregulated charging with equalizing. Surrette has published some good tech bulletins on this - although designed for their product the concepts and process applies to all FLA batteries to some extent. To answer your second question, the answer varies depending upon whether the equipment you are using can perform in a coordinated manner. If you are mixing brands, the hard part is keeping the controllers from going into float after a power outage, when the inverters charge the batteries after the ac returns. If you absolutely positively must mix brands, set the CC float voltage high, and the inverter bulk low. And still plan on checking in on the system every now and again to make sure the float LED isn't blinking merrily along... Phil Undercuffler On Sep 19, 2011 7:54 PM, Ian Eastman i...@creativeenergies.biz wrote: Hi. I was hoping that someone could simply answer a couple questions on battery voltage set points and specific gravity of cells. I'm a bastard son of generation grid tied, and in the last couple years and a job change have just begun building and servicing battery systems. First off. I was reading recently that the specific gravity of a cell should be somewhere close to 1.25 (temp corrections excluded). My question is with a cell that is reading low, aside from an equalization charge is there another way to bring the cell closer to its counterparts? And if an equalization charge doesn't fully solve the disparity, than is that it? Second. Can anyone clearly line out the voltage setpoints for a charge controller providing the main source of charging for a battery bank with the ability to sell back any excess power. Thank you. -- *Ian Eastman *| Installation/Project Management *GO SOLAR!* *Cell: 307.413.6789* • *i...@creativeenergies.biz* * **Creative Energies* *Victor, ID *office 208.354.3001 Lander, WY office* *307.332.3410* i...@creativeenergies.biz *Salt Lake City, UT office 801.487.6489 * *www.CreativeEnergies.biz http://www.creativeenergies.biz/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 SW inverters on three phase
At my previous employment we had a pair of SW's in exactly this configuration across a 120/208 three phase supply. Stacking on the SW's wasn't so much about coordinating operation between the two as much as it was the master of the moment giving a zero crossing and telling the other to stay out of the way. When grid wasn't present, the inverters would operate 180 degrees out of phase, 120/240 output. When grid was turned on, the slave would drift 60 degrees to sync up with the incoming power, and the two would operate as two legs of a 120/208 supply. Kinda fun to watch on a scope. If all your connected loads are 120V, you should be fine. Phil --- When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy. Do we use them? Oh, no! We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property. There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces. -- Thomas Edison -- On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:23 AM, William Miller will...@millersolar.comwrote: Friends: Is there any way to connect two SW series inverters to two phases of a three phase generator? It seems to me that one could connect three SW inverters with the right stacking cable (or am I confusing Outback inverters with the hub jumper set properly). Any input is appreciated. Thanks, William ** ** William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 SW inverters on three phase
William, that was with the stacking cable in place. As you noted, without the stacking cable the neutral needs to be sized for double the ampacity due to lack of synchronization. However if the feeder is sized for a 35kW genset that might not be an issue. This was on an SW, not a PS, but I'm pretty sure you'll see the same performance. The two had a lot of similarities at the core. Phil Undercuffler On Jul 28, 2011 1:54 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator/SQFlex problem
Use an ac charger to charge a small battery when the generator runs each evening, and then power a timer or photosensor from the battery. Sears, $40. I wouldn't worry about the phantom load of the timer -- you're running an 8kW diesel genset throughout the night. It oughta keep up. The question I can't answer is how this makes sense, with diesel above $4/gallon and service every 100 hours. Did you look at an Aerovironment UPC controller running array direct with a standard AC pump? Phil --- When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy. Do we use them? Oh, no! We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property. There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces. -- Thomas Edison -- On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: ** Wrenches, A good client of ours is a rancher in the New Mexico/Arizona border area. He has a specific need for which I couldn't offer a simple system. He needs to raise water from a lake 400+/- vertical feet to a 100K gallon storage tank for agricultural use. The site is remote. The amount is substantial - about 10-12 gpm continuously, 24/7. He would like to use 4 Grundfos SQ Flex pumps at about 2.5-3 gpm, each running array-direct feeding a common pipe to the tank. He then wants to use about an 8kW (derated to 6kW for 7,500' elevation) diesel generator (with standard two-wire automatic start) to run all four pumps when the sun goes down, and shut off and transfer back to PV when the sun comes up the next morning. How might this be done? If we assume that each pump has four 210W modules, that would be an 80Vnom array with MPP around 120V and Voc around 150V. I would assume that both of these voltages are too high to use any stand-alone AGS, such as Atkinson or Magnum. We considered a separate tiny 12V or 24V battery with small PV module, used just to power an AGS voltage sense signal, with the voltage difference between float (13.6V) and rest (12.7V) triggering a voltage-actuated start signal, but rejected this as problematic as battery temperatures affected charge voltages. A self-contained time switch, such as some of the newer Intermatic units, might work, if the right model can be identified and isn't a substantial phantom load. We would also have to adapt a relay to switch between sources, with a 120 or 240 V AC relay coil current, energized by the generator. The Grundfos IO101 AC interface unit is manual only. Has anyone solved this problem? Any ideas for a reasonably simple and trouble-free approach would be welcome. Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician *Positive Energy, Inc.* 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 *505 424-1112* *www.positiveenergysolar.com* http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ * * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Warranty Claim Based On Enphase Monitoring Data
First, I'd suggest swapping the inverter under the suspect module with it's neighboring module's inverter. See if the reduced output follows the module, or the inverter. If it follows the module, then I'd have a frank talk with the module manufacturer, backed with the data you've gathered, to see how they'll respond before yanking it out and shipping it back. As you note, it may be within spec, due to the tolerance of measurement error. Worst case, you've got instant vision as when the performance degrades further to the point of clear warrantable failure. Phil --- When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy. Do we use them? Oh, no! We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property. There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces. -- Thomas Edison -- On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote: Folks, Has anyone used Enphase monitoring data to get warranty replacement on new modules with sub par yield? I have several interesting questions stemming from access to Enphase module level monitoring data. Looking at data from a larger site (80 modules) with no shading issues, instant power production indicates a high degree of uniformity in panel power (Sharp NU-U240F1 and D380) easily within 1%. So what can we now say about the precision and accuracy of this monitoring data? It seems the old school thinking for string inverters was all the monitors were 5% off and reporting 5% more power than actual. Based on the data that I am looking at, it seems the microinverter meters must be fairly precise and possibly fairly accurate as well. Uniformity of module performance must also be fairly high. In any case, this data clearly shows a single module that is not performing as well as it's cohorts. For power levels above 50% of STC, it averages 9% less power than all other modules in the system. So off to Sharp for a warranty replacement? Yes, but, what if I am 5% low on the report from my inverter meter and 5% lower on my power from this one module? What if the module gets back to Sharp and they say it is within spec, now the costs are all mine? Interestingly enough, access to this monitoring data is making more work for me as an installer. With a string inverter, I would monitor power production readings monthly and be happy so long as yields were higher than what I projected when I designed and bid the job. Pretty much fire and forget. Now I am spending time on evaluating this data and doing the work to change out the module under warranty and so forth. I am going to end up putting in quite a few hours into this for what: to recapture 10% of 1/80 of total system yield….0.0013%. I am not complaining, just musing over this interesting evolution. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 *www.berkeleysolar.com* http://www.berkeleysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV water pumping
Tom, It can be done, depending upon how deep the static water level is and what additional lift or pressurization needs to be overcome. The SQ-Flex will run at highest capacity off an AC source, so I'd consider using an inverter system and grid power, with additional solar designed to supplement the grid. You can run the SQ-Flex off a 120v source, so a single inverter works fine. I run my Flex off my FX2024 along with all my regular household loads, no problems. Size the array to cover the load through the longest expected grid outage (minimum) or you can size the solar to provide the majority of the power, and use the grid as bonus energy or to cover up for sizing shortages or the inevitable load creep. Phil Undercuffler imagine if... On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Tom DeBates habite...@yahoo.com wrote: hello Wrenches, I have an organization in Haiti that I have assisted with PV projects in the past. They drill public wells and have a well (4 casing) that they would like to pump with PV. Problem (one) is that well will draw at ~ 20 gpm and they want ~ 25,000 gpd from the well. I have tried to look at every option I can and it looks like a battery bank will be necessary and an inverter ( 48 volt battery bank) to pump at the rate required. OOPPs, forgot they want to use a Grundfos SQ Flex pump, 16-SQF-10. The gird is present.very erratic and stressed, of course. They really would not like to stress gird further and do not want to add a generator. Yep, they made this easy. There are more details, but has anyone designed a PV water pumping system under these constraints and, if so, what have been your results? thanks, tom Tom DeBates Habi-Tek 524 Summit St. Geneva,IL. 60134 630-262-8193 fax 630-262-1343 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace TM500
The biggest difference between the two meters is the TM500 uses a RJ11 plug and telephone style cable between a shunt board and the meter. Since amphour meters work by measuring voltage drop across the shunt my guess would be that the meter has lost connectivity to the shunt, probably through those pinche connectors. Higher resistance = lower voltage measured = decreased current flow recorded. Any oxidation or corrosion of the tiny little pins will create inaccurate readings. Try wiggling the connectors and repeatedly plugging and unplugging them at both ends, and see if that clears up the issue. If that works, put a dab of silicone grease on the connectors to minimize chances of it happening again. Phil Undercuffler On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Howie Michaelson ho...@suncatchervt.comwrote: Hi All, In the past 2 months, I've had 2 separate clients with 48 volt SW systems have their TM500 stop resetting amphours - even after there is no current flowing into the bank for hours. The meter never goes below 0 amp hours and always shows Full SOC. These are TM500s that have behaved properly (at least in that way) for years. Anyone else ever seen this? Another time bomb? Any fix other than replacing with a Trimetric 2020. I've seen bizarre behavior from the TM500 before, in a 48 volt system setting up some high frequencies which effectively shut down the C40 on the system, but haven't seen this anomaly before these 2 systems... Thanks, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.74
My recollection is that MTW is Machine Tool Wire, which indeed is not recognized by the NEC. It's an other category of wire intended to be used by manufacturers as internal wiring on products which they then get listed. So a wire with other ratings (such as USE, RHW, THHN) can also have a MTW rating and be fine, but a wire with only an MTW rating should not be used as field wiring by an installer. Also, do you have a source for RHW-2 battery cables? Or did you mean to say RHW, such as the typical Cobra X-Flex? Phil Undercuffler On Nov 29, 2010 7:41 PM, Philip Boutelle philboute...@gmail.com wrote: Found the thread, very helpful thanks Glenn. The current parallel discussion on Battery Cables REvisited is helpful too. The inspector (She, btw) is extremely thorough. Although she has asked for proof of purpose-specific listings on just about everything, it seems I misquoted her in my previous post; I looked up her earlier plan review comments, and here's her original quote (from when my plans said to use MTW for the battery cable): MTW is not NEC approved for use. I think that to her, if it isn't explicitly in the NEC then I can't use it (lists go from being partial inclusive to complete limiting). -Phil On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: Hi Phil, I posted some information that is relevant back in March of 2009. It should be in the searchable archives… -Glenn Burt *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Philip Boutelle *Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2010 8:08 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.74 Wrenches, We have a string of batteries being inspected by a local AHJ. In plan-check comments, I was asked to ensure that the flexible cable was UL-listed, so we made sure of this when it came from the suppliers. We used 4/0 RHW-2. Now our inspector is asking if RHW-2 is fine-stranded in Article 400 of the NEC as required by 690.74? Article 400 doesn't explicitly define any cable types for use in battery systems, and the one general disclaimer is in 400.4: Types of flexible cords and flexible cables other than those listed in the table shall be the subject of special investigation. Has anyone had a similar request before? Anyone done a special investigation on cables, and have results to share? Any other thoughts? Thanks for any help, -Phil Real Goods Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Strawbale wall penetration
I didn't do anything special to the rebar, with the possible exception that I don't have a rebar cutter, so I tend to cut 3/4 of the way through with a Sawzall and then bend the rod till it breaks. That leaves a good size burr that works pretty well as a cutting edge. If you're going to take a grinder to the tip, it doesn't take much more to grind 3 flat spots for your chuck jaws. The odd nubs that make it so effective on reaming out the hole do pretty much the same job on the chuck jaws. At best, it keeps working loose. At worse, well, worse is you get a new chuck. Took me a couple weeks, maybe a couple dozen holes. Phil On Nov 20, 2010 3:40 PM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Guys,Great stuff. These are just the kinds of things i was wanting to look out for. I already have a 16 or 18 mason bellhanger bit, although it likely will not be long enuf, unless i use it with my 16 bit extension which can be use with drill bits or hole saws. I've only been out to the site once so far and neglected to figure out the wall thickness, but that wont be hard, i'll either check at a doorway or at the vent that i'll be pulling that existing teck cable out of. i'll try out the rebar suggestion and make sure i have my carbide hole-saws as well. Glenn, good call regarding the possibility of required metallic conduit on the DC run. I'll check what Canadian Electrical Code rule covers this. Phil, even thou i'll likely use my mason bits to start the holes in the plaster/stucco, do you grind down the business end of the rebar in a particular fashion to get a cutting edge on it. Im thinking either similar to a flat screwdriver (which might skid around a bit starting off) or a straight-across cut end with an X or * cut into the end. And how many chucks did you go thru before you decided to flatten the drill end of the rebar? Have a great weekend everyone! benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY From: glenn.b...@glbcc.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 15:26:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strawbale wall penetration Would the walls of the bale house be considered part of the dwelling and require careful consideration of whether metallic conduit is REQUIRED on the DC run? 690.31 (E) -Glenn Burt From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn kilburn Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 2:06 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strawbale wall penetration Wrenches, Short of contacting the builder, i'm looking for your experiences, practices and look-out's for penetrating a strawbale exterior wall with conduit. For the project in question there is currently a teck cable from a wind gen entering the home by sharing a HRV vent opening that i want to fix (not my original system by the way) and i will also be adding another penetration for a PV array that i am relocating on the property. The original penetration for the PV was done properly but its not in an ideal location for the re-located array wiring. I'm wondering if it is as simple as using a hole saw extension to go thru the ~16 wall and use an LB/box on either side. I'm sure there is some framework and/or rebar supporting the bales, how do you locate/avoid these when there are no corners to measure from? (it is a round home) Any knowledge if PVC or EMT will react in anyway with the bales? I'm thinking that PVC would be best? ... i am trying to contact the builder to address this, and also to ask a few choice questions regarding the wiring methods (he?) used in the original PV system set-up. Cheers,benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Strawbale wall penetration
Good bit (sorry for the pun) about the carbide hole saws. Like you, I've also got a box of bell hanger bits. However, straw bale walls start out at 14 thick and can go deeper - 36 and more. I've tried extensions and even the 4' long Jesus bits (you know, those ultra long flexible electrician bits that you pray to Jesus wind up in the same zip code as the wall you're aiming for), but for bale and Adobe, there's nothing like KISS rebar. Trust me. Phil Undercuffler On Nov 19, 2010 8:27 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Friends: I keep a set of grit edge hole saws.http://www.lenoxtools.com/Pages/Product.aspx?id=CarbidegritHoleSaws These cut Stucco and plaster without degradation. If I want to pilot a deep hole, I remove the ~4 pilot bit and chuck in a bell hanger bit. Linked is an 1/4 by 18 bit that will replace the pilot bit. Use with care, this is a long skinny bit. http://tinyurl.com/2cnupu3 William Miller At 01:36 PM 11/19/2010, you wrote: Having a fair bit of experience with bale, I ditto what Bill mentioned but I'll add a simple way that I discovered to getting the inside and outside holes to line up. Bale walls are seriously thick, so standard extension bits aren't long enough. I found taking a 2 or foot length of 3/8 rebar chucked into a half inch drill works nicely for boring a pilot hole all the way through the wall. Once you have the pilot hole, it's a simple matter of drilling out a hole large enough for your conduit on both sides of the wall. Either use a small bit to drill a series of holes around the perimeter and connect the dots with a cold chisel, or use a hole saw that you don't mind sacrificing on the plaster. You don't actually have to drill through the entire wall, as the straw can be pushed to the side. I usually spin the rebar in the hole while chunking it back and forth a few times to clear a path, then thread the conduit through the hole using the rebar as a guide to be able to find the hole on the other side. It really helps to have a second person on the other side, to help guide it in the final inches. Rebar as a drill bit also works great with adobe walls. If you do a lot of this, take a minute to grind down a flat spot on the end of the bar or it will tear up your drill chuck. Drill chucks can be spendy. Ask me how I know... Phil Undercuffler On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Bill Hoffer mailto:suneng...@gmail.comsuneng...@gmail.com wrote: Benn I used PVC in the my bale walls with a Junction Box on both sides of the penetration to protect the penetration (Outside a must!). I used EMT for all my other wiring, but PVC seems better for an interior to exterior penetration where the heat conduction of the EMT may cause some damaging condensation towards the exterior of the bales. I used a hammer drill and concrete bits to get through my stucco, it is tough stuff. I used 2 conduit so I had to make several smaller holes and knock it out by hand. I did not have rebar in my bales, but heavyduty 6x6 mesh to get through, as would be expected I never was able to hit the middle of the grid, I just had to cut and hack saw when I hit something, pays to have a sacrificial bit to find the metal. I then fashioned a home made bit out of the conduit and used that to get through the bales by hand. That went pretty easy and will allow you to locate the rebar without damaging an expensive bit . Hard part is lining up to get a good mark on the opposite side. I used foam to fill any gaps, replastered around the pipe and fitting and caulked really well to seal against water on the outside. I also located the JB on the outside of the building in a very protected area for additional security. Water and straw bales do not play well together! If anything I would favor a slight slope downward on the outside so if there is a leak it will not follow the pipe inward into the bales. Hope that helps! Bill On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:05 AM, benn kilburn mailto:b...@daystarsolar.cab...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Wrenches, Short of contacting the builder, i'm looking for your experiences, practices and look-out's for penetrating a strawbale exterior wall with conduit. For the project in question there is currently a teck cable from a wind gen entering the home by sharing a HRV vent opening that i want to fix (not my original system by the way) and i will also be adding another penetration for a PV array that i am relocating on the property. The original penetration for the PV was done properly but its not in an ideal location for the re-located array wiring. I'm wondering if it is as simple as using a hole saw extension to go thru the ~16 wall and use an LB/box on either side. I'm sure there is some framework and/or rebar supporting the bales, how do you locate/avoid these when there are no corners to measure from? (it is a round home) Any knowledge if PVC or EMT will react in anyway with the bales? I'm thinking that PVC would be best? ... i am trying to contact
Re: [RE-wrenches] Strawbale wall penetration
Having a fair bit of experience with bale, I ditto what Bill mentioned but I'll add a simple way that I discovered to getting the inside and outside holes to line up. Bale walls are seriously thick, so standard extension bits aren't long enough. I found taking a 2 or foot length of 3/8 rebar chucked into a half inch drill works nicely for boring a pilot hole all the way through the wall. Once you have the pilot hole, it's a simple matter of drilling out a hole large enough for your conduit on both sides of the wall. Either use a small bit to drill a series of holes around the perimeter and connect the dots with a cold chisel, or use a hole saw that you don't mind sacrificing on the plaster. You don't actually have to drill through the entire wall, as the straw can be pushed to the side. I usually spin the rebar in the hole while chunking it back and forth a few times to clear a path, then thread the conduit through the hole using the rebar as a guide to be able to find the hole on the other side. It really helps to have a second person on the other side, to help guide it in the final inches. Rebar as a drill bit also works great with adobe walls. If you do a lot of this, take a minute to grind down a flat spot on the end of the bar or it will tear up your drill chuck. Drill chucks can be spendy. Ask me how I know... Phil Undercuffler On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Bill Hoffer suneng...@gmail.com wrote: Benn I used PVC in the my bale walls with a Junction Box on both sides of the penetration to protect the penetration (Outside a must!). I used EMT for all my other wiring, but PVC seems better for an interior to exterior penetration where the heat conduction of the EMT may cause some damaging condensation towards the exterior of the bales. I used a hammer drill and concrete bits to get through my stucco, it is tough stuff. I used 2 conduit so I had to make several smaller holes and knock it out by hand. I did not have rebar in my bales, but heavyduty 6x6 mesh to get through, as would be expected I never was able to hit the middle of the grid, I just had to cut and hack saw when I hit something, pays to have a sacrificial bit to find the metal. I then fashioned a home made bit out of the conduit and used that to get through the bales by hand. That went pretty easy and will allow you to locate the rebar without damaging an expensive bit . Hard part is lining up to get a good mark on the opposite side. I used foam to fill any gaps, replastered around the pipe and fitting and caulked really well to seal against water on the outside. I also located the JB on the outside of the building in a very protected area for additional security. Water and straw bales do not play well together! If anything I would favor a slight slope downward on the outside so if there is a leak it will not follow the pipe inward into the bales. Hope that helps! Bill On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:05 AM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.cawrote: Wrenches, Short of contacting the builder, i'm looking for your experiences, practices and look-out's for penetrating a strawbale exterior wall with conduit. For the project in question there is currently a teck cable from a wind gen entering the home by sharing a HRV vent opening that i want to fix (not my original system by the way) and i will also be adding another penetration for a PV array that i am relocating on the property. The original penetration for the PV was done properly but its not in an ideal location for the re-located array wiring. I'm wondering if it is as simple as using a hole saw extension to go thru the ~16 wall and use an LB/box on either side. I'm sure there is some framework and/or rebar supporting the bales, how do you locate/avoid these when there are no corners to measure from? (it is a round home) Any knowledge if PVC or EMT will react in anyway with the bales? I'm thinking that PVC would be best? ... i am trying to contact the builder to address this, and also to ask a few choice questions regarding the wiring methods (he?) used in the original PV system set-up. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Bill Hoffer PE Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC 2504 Columbia Ave NW East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941 suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762 Cell(509)679-6165 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
There is a big difference between standing seam metal roofs and surface screwed metal roofs. With surface screwed (aka ProPanel or Ag Panel), screws penetrate through the roof skin and rely upon a neoprene gasket under a cupped washer to provide the weather-tight seal. It makes a pretty good seal and I've used it on my own home, but I don't think I'd use it in Montana and I sure wouldn't try to attach PV over it. The days of lagging L feet through the roof deck are thankfully waning, and there is almost no practical way to use a flashed method of mounting with surface screwed metal. With standing seam roofs, the metal is formed into long U shaped pans. As each pan is installed, the roofer nails L shaped clips to the deck with one side of the clip butted up against the latest pan. The next pan is butted up against the first, which captures the clip between the two. The upward facing legs of the U (and clip) are then crimped and folded over, locking them together and forming a watertight seal. I had a standing seam roof on my home in Cincinnati -- eighty years old and still going strong. The biggest challenge with attaching PV to standing seam roofs is not how well the modules are attached to the skin, but how well the skin is attached to the structure. Read the archives, but in the end this really comes down to how close the roofer installed the clips. This is where the 4 that Andrew mentioned comes into play (seems a little excessive to me, but what the heck, I'm not a roofing dude and this isn't something you want to do twice). The dream scenario part comes in when you realize that YOU get to drive the bus on how closely the clips are installed, as opposed to being presented with a roof where you have no idea how many clips were used, what the spacing is, or even whether nails or screws or bubble gum were used to connect them to the deck. The folks that make the S-5 clamp know metal roofs, and they can help you determine what spacing works for your application. Get that into the contract, and make sure someone is on site providing oversight when the roof is installed. As far as some of the other options which were presented -- yes, lagging into engineered I-beams is probably not a good idea without checking with the manufacturer, but adding a second layer of ply doesn't suddenly make a structural base for lag screws. Lag screw pull-out resistance is provided by inches of thread embedded into solid wood, and shiners (fasteners that poke through the deck into the attic space) won't give any real strength. If it's really 1/2 ply, adding a layer of 3/4 ply would give you 1-1/4 of wood -- do the math and see if that's enough for your climate. Adding 2x blocking would be an option if you have access to the attic, but you need to make sure the loads transfer to the rafters (I-beams), rather than concentrate on the deck. Nailing the blocking would be fine -- after all, that's how houses are built. Lagging the blocking as suggested by someone earlier, however, will not only be insanely difficult but risk splitting the top chord of the beam. If you split that, I would immediately stop what you're doing and consult with the I-beam manufacturer. Big liability moment there. But I'd avoid all that lags, nails, plywood and blocking entirely, put on a standing seam metal roof with adequate clips and install the PV with S-5 clamps. My .02 Phil Undercuffler On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:52 AM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: andrew, a few comments added to your last email... You Wrote If you ask me this is a dream scenario. The scary thing about S-5!s is that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the decking and how well the decking is attached to the framing. i'm not overly familiar with standing seam metal roofs (and i know they are not all created equal) but aren't the screws holding the metal roof panel to the decking visible at the bottom, at the top under the vent cap and anywhere along the length of said panel? i agree about the 'unknown' attachments btwn the decking and the framing In this case you can direct the roofer to fasten the roof as often as you want. I had a PE do an analysis for a sure-fire acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90 mph wind zone, 18 wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array (modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if the roofing panels are fastened every 4 along each seam you are in the clear. No doubt, that seems like quite a few fasteners. He did not address the decking-to-framing attachment, So worst case scenario, you get a 90+ mph wind that takes the array, the metal roof *and the decking* for a ride to the ground, (HAS ANYONE SEEN OR HAD THIS HAPPEN?) when it is determined that the decking wasn't properly attached to the framing, who do ya call? PV installer, PE who stamped it, roofer? I'm not looking for a place to point
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Monitoring - German Style
There's a link at the bottom of the text to the model assumptions. In short, it appears they use the systems monitored via Sunny Portal to build the curve, and the info published by the government on the total nominal output of all PV installed in Germany to scale the curve. Phil Undercuffler On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.netwrote: From SMA's website monitoring over 27,000 PV systems. By all PV plants in Germany I assume they mean all plants with SMA monitoring. See http://www.sma.de/en/news-information/pv-electricity-produced-in-germany.html ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NECPLUS Article
It took a little bit of doinking around, but I did finally find it. http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=1881itemID=35453URL=Research/Fire%20Protection%20Research%20Foundation/Reports%20and%20proceedings/For%20emergency%20responders. There's a link to download the report about 1/3 of the way down the page. If that link doesn't work, contact me offline and I'll email a copy of the report. http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=1881itemID=35453URL=Research/Fire%20Protection%20Research%20Foundation/Reports%20and%20proceedings/For%20emergency%20respondersAlso if interested, the full text of the intro article is at http://www.necplus.org/Features/Pages/ThePoweroftheSunResearchinSupportofSafePhotovoltaicPower.aspx?sso=0 http://www.necplus.org/Features/Pages/ThePoweroftheSunResearchinSupportofSafePhotovoltaicPower.aspx?sso=0 Phil Undercuffler On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.netwrote: Interesting news item, but the link does not connect to the fire fighter report. Does someone have the correct report link? In May 2010 the Fire Protection Research Foundation (FPRF) completed a one-year research project addressing photovoltaic (PV) power systems. The report, titled Fire Fighter and Emergency Response for Solar Power Systems, is of direct interest to the NEC® community and is available for download on the FPRF website (at www.nfpa.org/foundation). - Original Message - From: hol...@sbcglobal.net To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 2:17 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] NECPLUS Article This may be of interest...from the NEC newsletter http://www.necplus.org/Features/Pages/ThePoweroftheSunResearchinSupportofSafePhotovoltaicPower.aspx?sso=0 Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco TX. 76712 254-751-9111 www.holteksolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] #10 THWN-2
Marco, I found the same situation as what David mentions -- when we were doing a high profile job that was going to be inspected by a certain someone from Las Cruces, all the wire available from local suppliers was only physically marked as THHN / THWN, but when we dug a little deeper and found the actual spec sheets from the manufacturer we were able to determine that the wire actually was rated as THWN-2 (plus a whole alphabet soup worth of additional listings), although it wasn't marked as such. Have the vendor pull up the spec sheet on the wire brands they typically carry, and keep a couple copies in your for the inspector file. Phil Undercuffler On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:33 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: Marco, The #10 THWN wire that your local suppliers carry may be cross-listed as THWN-2. My understanding is that it is not uncommon for smaller gauge wire to carry more listings than are printed on its insulation. (If that’s not true, we’ll find out shortly from someone on the list.) If your local supplier can’t confirm this cross-listing for you, I’d try tracing back to ask their supplier or the manufacturer. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor *SolarPro* magazine On 7/23/10 12:52 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf ma...@pvthawaii.com wrote: Finding that wire in these here parts is pretty much impossible. Can any of my CA. brethren/sistren provide me any leads on wholesalers in either northern or southern CA. that carry #10 THWN-2 wire? Thanks, marco -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] maximum efficiency module inquiry
Kirk, With all due respect, I'm going to employ the bull*hit detector on this customer's inquiry. He tells you that he wants the most efficient product available, or potentially available in the next 5 years, no matter the cost. He throws out the two industry leading commercialized, warrantable and bankable products as not good enough. He says he's willing to be a beta site for some yet-as-undeveloped technology... Cue image of John Belushi coughing into his hand, circa Animal House You are speaking with the wrong person on this project, and need to politely, delicately and with great finesse go over his head to find the real decision maker if you are to have any hope in hell of closing this deal. 85kW at an installed cost of $6 per watt (a sweet deal for ultra-high efficiency cutting edge technology, but bear with me here) is over a half million dollars of investment. Precious few companies cut that kind of check without being lock-down rock-solid positive of the correctness of the business decision. Of course, there are countless numbers of ways that this decision is the right one, but cost-is-no-object power density is rarely one of them. As Peter points out, why are they focused on [cell? module? system?] efficiency, and not energy or return? Sure, you might have hooked up with a Richard Branson who's willing to plunk down a handful of big bills just 'cause, whether or not it works and absolutely without regard of warranty or long term results. But it's rare that mere mortals such as you and I manage an audience with such folk. It's far more likely that you've come in contact with a mid-level visionary who likes to emphasize his importance by dealing in arm-waving big number broad strokes. Nothing wrong with that, and it's definitely a great entry. However, dollars to donuts as it comes closer to signing the contract the more the numbers have to pencil out. So either you go on the clock as a consultant to rub on the crystal ball and ultimately prove to the client he should hold onto his money for another couple years so module/cell/system efficiencies can go from miraculous to freakin'-miraculous, or you take a deep breath, dive in and do the calculations so you can show the people that matter that there's never been a better time to invest in renewable energy. Of course, if I'm wrong about all this I should let you know that I've developed an 82% efficient PV module in my garage. I'm glad to send your customer my personal mailing address and when the check clears I will be eternally apologetic, contrite and owe you more than a few beers. Peace, Phil Undercuffler On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE k...@vtsolar.comwrote: Hello, I have been charged with the task by a corporate client to do diligence in finding the most efficient PV out there which is commercially available, or may be available in the next five years. They are not satisfied with the roughly 20% efficiency of Sanyo / Sunpower, for instance. They want the greatest power density available and may be willing to serve as a beta test site for something of highest efficiency, and money may not be an object. The roof footprint can accommodate roughly 85KW of Sanyo 210’s as it looks today. Any info you folks can provide would be greatly appreciated. I basically need to write a white paper describing everything out there and the pros and cons of each. It is possible I could hire a consultant (recommended by or from our wrench list) to do this research for me if it feels right. I imagine this type of analysis has been done before. Thanks in advance. Kirk Herander Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT Solar Incentive Program Partner ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16 2v vs 6v
Wow, this has been a wonderful and fruitful thread. First, Ron let me thank you for some impressive responses, and great information. I have some nits, but those are small and inconsequential, so I'll leave them to later. However, I want to chime in a bit just to set a frame of reference, if everyone will be patient with me. I'm concerned that one person's interpretation of grey will be misconstrued and quoted as gospel gray from now until eternity. Specifically, Ron you answered Darryl that Your recommendation to customers is 100% accurate… It is better to use low charge currents. I want to be clear, however, that your definition of low is extremely different that that of most solar designers. Darryl was suggesting ...never charge faster than C/10 and C/15 or C/20 is better whereas you were saying It is usually recommended to use a range of 10% to 13% of the battery’s 20-hour rate. I know that might not sound like much of a difference, but let's take a quick survey -- who among you wrenches normally install greater than 6kW of PV per 1,000 AH of battery at 48 volts? Whoa, not a lot of hands. Do the math, but that's roughly what it takes to obtain a C/10 charge rate with straight PV. In all my years of working the wholesale trade, the systems I've seen which could theoretically achieve a C/10 charge rate are statistically insignificant. Systems which could perhaps achieve C/20 (except for those pesky oft-ignored daytime loads)...lot more hands in the air now. Systems which which hope and pray to someday hit C/100 (if the owners go off on vacation)Bing Bing Bing -- you win the prize! Climbing off my soapbox, my point is that Ron, your definition as a battery manufacturer of low should be used with a clear reference to what high would be. Just want to clarify that before we all start hearing but Trojan says I should charge at low current levels, so my 500W PV array will be just fine for that 1,000 AH battery!!! The one question I have about the new Trojan 2V L16s would be what, exactly, is the benefit they provide for the designer and installer? When I look at the design, it looks like it's just using an existing case with three 350AH cells connected in parallel (2V) inside, rather than the standard series connection (6V) or better yet using a single 1,100AH cell. If good design practice calls for no more than three strings (cells) in parallel, then good practice would call for no more than a single string of these specific batteries, since any more than that would mean 6, 9 or more cells in parallel. Count the caps, folks. How about those watering chores. Measuring specific gravities? Shoot me first, please! I think Blair was right about looking at true industrial cells. So on to the nit -- can you send me a copy of the Excel file of the IEC 61427 graph? Gmail doesn't show the Excel graph, and the .png file shows up as little more than a thumbnail -- I can grok the essential info from the other graphs and tables, but that 13 years worth of data just doesn't come through in a legible manner, least not to my aging eyes. This discussion is much appreciated Phil Undercuffler On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Ronald Paredes rpare...@trojanbattery.comwrote: Hello Ray, Glad to be helpful… The basic scope of the IEC 61427standard is to provide general information relating to the requirements of batteries in RE applications, and more importantly, the test methods that will test the battery’s ability to do well in RE applications. The standard covers several tests. The most relevant tests are: · Capacity test · Suitability for floating operation · Cycle endurance test at partial state of charge (deficit charging) · Endurance test in overcharge · Charge retention test Most of the tests are very typical for battery characterization. The most important test is the cycle endurance test at partial state of charge because it tests battery’s ability to do well even when the battery doesn’t get a full charge, which happens all too often in RE applications. This is also a high temperature test, so it tests the battery’s ability to do well in extreme temperatures. The battery fails the test if the capacity falls below 80% or its rated capacity, or if the voltage falls below a certain threshold. Below is a graph of what the test looks like. Each block represents a year. This test ran about 13 years… Please let me know if this provides enough information/background, or if you have any other questions. Thanks for your reply. Best Regards, Ronald Paredes Technical Product Manager – Renewable Energy *Trojan Battery Company* 12380 Clark Street Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Tel: (562)236-3000 Ext. 3066 Fax: (562)236-3279 rpare...@trojanbattery.com www.trojanbattery.com *Trojan Battery Company - Clean Energy for Life™* ___ List
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two batteries with an MX60 in between (was big bank)
Hi Mark, Sorry for the delay in responding, but I've been offline for a bit. In short, the answer is no. The original problem was too much battery for the charging source, no absorption time to the charge, the battery sitting too long at deep discharge voltages, and too many parallel strings. Taking energy from a battery that is already suffering from an inadequate charge and running it through a 90-some-odd-percent efficient conversion device to attempt to charge an off-line string is like taking out PayDay loans from the local legalized loanshark, and calling it a raise. It's just a losing proposition. IMO, you need more incoming electrons, and less lead. Phil Undercuffler. On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote: Folks, As you may recall I have 4 strings of 4 batteries parralleled into a single bank. Each string is 1690Ah @ 48V. The charging system for this bank is undersized. I think I would do better by reducing the bank size by running only 3 strings. However, I don't want to strand the fourth string. I am wondering what rotating the strings might look like. One string would be removed from the bank for a period of perhaps a month. Then it would go back on-line and onother string would be taken off-line, and so on. Right away I worry about accelerating the divergence of the strings in terms of resistence to charging. Going to three stings would reduce this problem, but trying to rotate strings might make it worse. In any case, I would want to float out the dormant string as best I could while it is off-line. Would it work to attached the DC input of an MX60 to the on-line bank of three strings, and the output to the off-line sting, and let the MX keep the off-line string in float? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 *www.berkeleysolar.com* http://www.berkeleysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] For Big Bank Off Grid System Connoisseurs
I'm still not clear on why everyone thinks that this is a failure which should be covered under warranty. If Rob or Jean want to give a free cell, then that's above and beyond -- but I don't think we should be blaming the battery in this case. Let's explore the situation. We've got 6760 AH of battery storage, in four parallel strings. Four strings in parallel would not be my recommendations, but let's leave that aside for now. The solar, if putting out full rated wattage with no degradation due to heat, off-axis, shading, soiling, or any other loss will put out a whopping 100 amps, for a mind boggling C/67. Add normal derates, and we're down to a C/80 charge rate, and we haven't even accounted for daytime loads. The solar is there for show, and to make the owners feel green. So how about the generator charging? We have 10 Outback inverters -- that should be enough, right? Well, 10x45A each gives us a C/15 charge rate, which should be OK. But is the generator large enough? That's a lot of inverters to drive, this load is pretty reactive, and we've not any information about the background AC loads except that they're probably pretty large. Wait, the generator is only 30kVA, which is only good for 24kVA of continuous resistive load (30*.08). What's the altitude of the installation -- if it's higher than 1,000 feet the generator should be further derated. No inverter is as efficient at charging as it is at inverting, so of that 24kVA of available generator capacity, only 19kVA is likely to make it to the batteries -- that's a likely C/21 charge rate if there were no AC loads, but there are, so it's likely to be lower. And when do the batteries get charged? Not every day -- the solar can barely keep up with the self discharge. The generator runs every 2 - 3 weeks, so the batteries are *in a state of near constant discharge for 14 - 21 days on average*. When they get so low they hit the AGS floor, the generator kicks in. However, just as the battery voltage climbs to the beginning of the absorption state, the generator is shut off. These batteries haven't been full in over six years. They haven't received a proper charge in over six years, either. I'm surprised they've lasted as long as they have. Let me guess the last time they were equalized -- really equalized, not just I hit the button and ran the generator until I got tired of the noise equalized -- as in charge until the voltage rises up to 62-64 volts for 3 or 4 hours, and the specific gravity on each and every cell hits 1.265. Was the bank commissioned with an EQ upon installation? I think that one of the best things that can be done to serve these clients (other than recommend a huge investment in efficiency) is to decrease the time between generator charges by 50-75%. You want to get it to the point where the generator is cycling on at least every 7-10 days. In addition, you really want to extend the absorption time -- 12 minutes is just not enough to do anything but tease. The customer really needs a bigger generator to drive this system, too. Adding vent fans to the power room is highly recommended -- you're dissipating something like 6,000 watts of heat when you're running 10 inverters at full charge. Power the vent fans off the generator output, so they only come on when the system is charging. When it's time to replace this bank of batteries, I'd recommend looking at decreasing the size of the bank by 50%. And investing more in efficiency, of course. Hope this helps, Phil Undercuffler On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Jeff Oldham starpowe...@juno.com wrote: Those HUP batteries are still under warranty and you very well may have a free cell waiting for you, give Rob or Jean a call at NWES and run it past them. They offer 1st rate CS and should take good care of you. You won't get much for used batteries so I would be inclined to keep them in service even though 4 strings in parallel is not ideal. I've had reasonable luck with 4 strings paralleled by getting my battery/inverter cables all over the bank, at the least put 1/2 of your inverters across 2 strings and the other 1/2 on the remaining 2 strings (still parallel all 4 strings). You never mentioned an EQ cycle either, with that limited Absorption time it should happen at least every 6 weeks. From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions *TODAY: iPads for $23.78?* Report: Apple iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 83% off! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/4c20efb95654048a554st06vuc ConsumerProductsDigest.comhttp://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/4c20efb95654048a554st06vuc ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http
Re: [RE-wrenches] How many Ahs?
Mark, The battery is marked with a 6 hour rate because if it's used in a forklift in a warehouse, they figure on a 6 hour discharge cycle -- they hammer it hard for most of the day, then park it for the night, plug it in and let it recharge. They also mark it with a 20 hour rate because that's the standard discharge rate for comparisons -- as you notice, the 6 hour rate is considerably smaller than the 20 hour rate, so it helps to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. If your standard discharge cycle is a ~24 hour period, then you can use the 20 hour rate to evaluate charger setpoints. Also, in regard to your question: Is it fair to say the following: For rapid bulk charging to bring the voltage up from some discharged voltage of say 48VDC to a bulk charged voltage of say 60VDC, I want a charger that can provided a constant current of C/10 or 1320/10 = 132 A across that voltage range. I would say that is not correct. Use the C/20 rated capacity, not the C/10. That means you want a charger that can provide 169 amps if you want to push the battery as hard as it can reasonably be charged. Charging that bank with anything less than ~85 amps of charging current (after you account for daytime loads) is really more of a trickle than a charge. Ideally, your charging source should be somewhere between those two numbers, and when in doubt err to the higher side. Also, you mentioned: And at the time that I complete this bulk charge, the battery bank will be restored to 1320/1690 = 78% of its starting capacity. I think you're swinging at the fences there. You can't tell anything by comparing the various C/numbers, and besides they really only apply to the discharge cycle. I think it would be more accurate to say that once your constant current charger brought the battery voltage up to somewhere around 58.8 to 59.2 (temperature compensated), then it should begin to taper the current to hold the battery voltage at that point while still flowing as much current as possible. Once the bank has been held at that voltage for some period of time (which can be confirmed by specific gravity measurements, guesstimated by calculations based on depth of previous discharge, or ballparked at 3-4 hours for a bank that size), then the bank can be considered full. Phil Undercuffler Enjoying solar independence since a week ago last Friday On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote: Suppose I have a battery bank made up of 4 - 12V Enersys HUP flooded lead acid batteries. The batteries are wired in series for a nominal 48VDC system. The side of the battery, which is actually a forklift battery, is marked as 1320 Ah @ C/6. The vendor also rates the battery as 1690 Ah @ C/20. So, for the purpose of evaluating the battery back relative to the charging system settings, what size is the battery bank? It is interesting to think that at a normal discharge rate of C/20 I can get 128% more energy out of the bank (1690 Ah) than I can put back in at a C/6 charging rate (1320 Ah)? Is it fair to say the following: For rapid bulk charging to bring the voltage up from some discharged voltage of say 48VDC to a bulk charged voltage of say 60VDC, I want a charger that can provided a constant current of C/10 or 1320/10 = 132 A across that voltage range. And at the time that I complete this bulk charge, the battery bank will be restored to 1320/1690 = 78% of its starting capacity. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 *www.berkeleysolar.com* http://www.berkeleysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV driven air compressor
What's the cell count on the module that you're planning on using? Most 200W modules I've seen recently use 60 6 cells in series, which is lower than 24V nominal (72 cells) and much higher than 12V (36 cells). The attachment didn't come through, but IF the pump uses a permanent magnet DC motor, you should be able to run a 24V motor at 3/4 speed without problem -- if it's something else, I'd talk with Gast about the implications. The LCB, however, might take a little more consideration. I'd talk with the folks at Solar Converters about your plan, and provide them the specs on the module. If their standard unit doesn't have that wide an input voltage range (and I have no idea, honestly), then they might be able to cook you up something specific to your application. Phil Undercuffler On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Howie Michaelson ho...@suncatchervt.comwrote: Phil, Thanks for the info. The pump being considered is a Gast 22D 1180 series, either the 1002 (12v) or the 1005 (24v) - see attached spec sheet (I think I can attach now?). I was assuming that using a linear current booster with a voltage limit such as: http://solarconverters.com/ppt7.htm model PPT 12/24-7V M24 will protect against over voltage. I was assuming undervoltage wouldn't hurt the pump much (like using PV direct with an El Sid for SHW pumping), and the LCB will provide the higher current potentially necessary to start the pump. Am I wrong about these assumptions? I am leaning toward the 24v pump, since it gives me more overhead with a smaller LCB. Always appreciate the wealth of experience and knowledge this list avails me. Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Wed, May 26, 2010 12:51 am, Phil Undercuffler wrote: In my experience, there's few problems in the world that can't be solved with more PV -- including running pumps with permanent magnet/brush motors array direct. However, there's a couple things to be aware of -- first, sizing the array. Although the pump may be rated to draw 90 watts when running, you need to oversize the array to ensure 90 watts will be available under normal daily conditions. The exact amount of oversizing depends upon many factors, but without further testing I'd ballpark an additional 30% over rated running watts. Also, the array needs to be larger if the pump starts under load, which is highly likely with an aerator (probably doesn't have an unloader valve, if those work with aerators at all). So far, everything leads one to say, rock on with the 180-200 watt modules. But, it's sometimes not so easy. Most 190-200 Watt modules available today have 60 cells, and don't nicely align with 12 or 24V nominal voltages. Does your aerator come in two flavors, 12V or 24V, please specify your preferred voltage upon order? Or does it have electronics built in, and will take anything in a range between 12V and 24V (unlikely, but possible)? If the former, then you really need to find some module combination that provides 36 or 72 cells in series -- otherwise, you'll either run the pump under or overspeed, which will impact longevity and performance. If the latter, make sure it will be happy with the voltage the module puts out -- over the full range of conditions. Empirical testing can sometimes be the best approach with a project like this, but it's a good idea to do a little homework beforehand, to best know what the expected behavior should be. Good luck with it, it sounds like a fun project! Phil Undercuffler On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Howie Michaelson ho...@suncatchervt.comwrote: Hi all, I have a project to provide PV power for a small diaphragm air pump (1/8 hp, 12 or 24 vDC, 6.2 or 3.5 running amps, 90 watts). As it turns out, pricing from my distributor is cheaper for 180-200 watt modules than for anything smaller. I don't spec PV driven pumps except for SHW, so I'm just checking for any reason to not use the larger modules. The pump is being used to aerate a pond, so no problem with excess pumping. I will most likely use a linear current booster to improve output, but mostly to limit voltage. Any advice would be welcomed. Thanks, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV driven air compressor
In my experience, there's few problems in the world that can't be solved with more PV -- including running pumps with permanent magnet/brush motors array direct. However, there's a couple things to be aware of -- first, sizing the array. Although the pump may be rated to draw 90 watts when running, you need to oversize the array to ensure 90 watts will be available under normal daily conditions. The exact amount of oversizing depends upon many factors, but without further testing I'd ballpark an additional 30% over rated running watts. Also, the array needs to be larger if the pump starts under load, which is highly likely with an aerator (probably doesn't have an unloader valve, if those work with aerators at all). So far, everything leads one to say, rock on with the 180-200 watt modules. But, it's sometimes not so easy. Most 190-200 Watt modules available today have 60 cells, and don't nicely align with 12 or 24V nominal voltages. Does your aerator come in two flavors, 12V or 24V, please specify your preferred voltage upon order? Or does it have electronics built in, and will take anything in a range between 12V and 24V (unlikely, but possible)? If the former, then you really need to find some module combination that provides 36 or 72 cells in series -- otherwise, you'll either run the pump under or overspeed, which will impact longevity and performance. If the latter, make sure it will be happy with the voltage the module puts out -- over the full range of conditions. Empirical testing can sometimes be the best approach with a project like this, but it's a good idea to do a little homework beforehand, to best know what the expected behavior should be. Good luck with it, it sounds like a fun project! Phil Undercuffler On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Howie Michaelson ho...@suncatchervt.comwrote: Hi all, I have a project to provide PV power for a small diaphragm air pump (1/8 hp, 12 or 24 vDC, 6.2 or 3.5 running amps, 90 watts). As it turns out, pricing from my distributor is cheaper for 180-200 watt modules than for anything smaller. I don't spec PV driven pumps except for SHW, so I'm just checking for any reason to not use the larger modules. The pump is being used to aerate a pond, so no problem with excess pumping. I will most likely use a linear current booster to improve output, but mostly to limit voltage. Any advice would be welcomed. Thanks, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tiny load problem
If the normal connected loads are within the capacity of a single inverter (which may actually be possible -- I run my whole house off one Outback FX2024, microwave, dishwasher, washing machine and all) then you can just leave one of the inverters in sleep mode or disable output but leave input/charging enabled. Which inverters are you planning on using for the generator charging? Depending upon which brand or how sophisticated you want to be, there are a couple ways to skin this cat. Easiest and cheapest is to simply not connect up any AC output wiring or stacking cables to the second inverter, and program it to stay asleep and charge only when it sees AC input power. I used to be religious about making sure my inverter was asleep, and even had a second baby inverter to power a handful of full time or sensitive loads. However, it got difficult trying to explain why you couldn't just plug the vacuum cleaner into just-any-old-outlet, and as my electronic widget count expanded it became less and less advantageous to have that baby inverter. Phil Undercuffler Conergy On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:58 AM, bob reelli...@gmail.com wrote: I am sizing a system that will have dual inverters to shorten generator charging in the winter and enough solar to charge the rest of the time. Here’s the problem, the inverter will not be able to get into sleep mode at night. There are 2 cell chargers and a “cpap” machine having to run all night. It only totals 26 watts, has anyone found a better way to do this without having to keep an inverter awake to produce 26 watts? I would like to dedicate a Morningstar 300 watt inverter for the job but the system is 24 volts and Morningstar has no plans to make one in 24 volts. Anyone got any other ideas, or am I best to just deal with it? Thanks, Bob ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Heinz 57 off-grid array
Whether you rebuild the system using existing equipment or start over again with all new gear, I strongly suggest building a simple relay logic control to prevent both pumps from running at the same time. Toilet flushes, grinder activates just as well pump kicks onthat's a pretty hefty load for any system, and will force you into far more inverter than this client otherwise needs. Just decide which pump is most critical to run, and use relays to prevent the other pump from kicking on until the first job is finished. Might need to install more buffer for the second system -- larger or multiple pressure tanks, or ___ (I don't want to picture what the second system could use, sorry. Too close to breakfast). I know this may sound obvious after the fact, but you'd be surprised how many folks miss this. Phil Undercuffler On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Dana d...@solarwork.com wrote: I see several challenges here: ·You sure do not want both pumps on at the same time or total shut down will result. ·The 2HP pump is 24 amps at 120VAC or 12 amps at 230 VAC, either way 2.7KW continuous draw and start up surge at 2-4 times [5.4KW – 10.8KW]that? This will be more than a light dimmer. I think the mix and match was just covered here with compromises in the assorted modules. I s there a backup generator? Could this grinder and water pump go direct to that on a pressure or float switch start? If you are a code compliant installer then you probably are faced with a start over. I have a client that we are doing just that right now and they are glad to do this. The 2 – 30 watt PV modules just will not get them and 2 laptops through the winter any more… Thanks, Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bob Clark *Sent:* Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:29 PM *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Heinz 57 off-grid array - What should I do with the solar modules? Wrenches: We were called to assess the status of an off-grid system that is not the worst I have seen, but it comes close. I have some preliminary thoughts about system redesign, but would like to hear from the Wrenches about the array. *Givens:* We will not install anything unless it is to code. It is obvious that none of the existing system was installed to code. We will use the existing 24V battery bank consisting of 8, Trojan L16s. The batteries are still “relatively fresh.” Pump is a Franklin pump ½ hp 115VAC. The CFs dim when the pump starts. New load will be a GRINDER PUMP FOR SEPTIC = 2HP, 15amp (240 or 120VAC – more than likely it will be 240V pump) – Another light dimmer! Modest daily electrical load (estimate no more than 600 WHr/day; 25AHr) – they are *very good* at managing their electrical use. *Solar array – to keep or replace?* 8 solar modules – a Heinz 57 mix of older modules - 2 Photowatt PMX500 (Are these modules UL listed? There did not appear to be a rating label on the back.) wired in series, 2 Kyocera KC120-1 wired in series, 2 Golden Genesis PV-75 wired in series, 2 Photowatt PW 1000 12V-24V internally wired for 24V wired in parallel with the other modules strings – all of these modules are wired in 5 parallel strings for approximately 34.2Vmp and 20.4Imp, ~695W (STC). Oh, and they need a new mounting structures for the modules. Should I try to work with these modules or advise the customer to start over (any modules that are not UL listed will have to go)? What is a good “rule of thumb” for a ratio of PV watts to battery bank capacity per day of autonomy? Thanks for your ideas. *Bob Clark* *SolarWind Energy Systems, LLC* No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2848 - Release Date: 05/01/10 12:27:00 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roof anchors and proper rigging
Rebecca, A great post, with lots of good information and a wonderful attitude. However, there are some small nits that I feel compelled to pick, hopefully without distracting from the value of your message. Clear caulk has little to no UV resistance, and will degrade much quicker than colored. In addition, most caulks are not compatible with the asphalt base of most 3-tab or architectural shingles. Read the label before proceeding. Tying off to a vehicle is a really, really bad idea, for just the reasons you bring up. Rock on! Phil Undercuffler On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Rebecca Lundberg rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com wrote: Hi Ryan, A few thoughts on this. One, it is all about safety, and more than any code or compliance concern, you should be concerned about the safety of you and your crew, because that's basically why code is written. I spent 12-hours today and 12-hours yesterday (who needs the gym?!) hanging from a 12:12 pitch roof to install solar modules on one of my job sites, and my roof safety knowledge was put to the test because I had only 6 to work from on the eave and side edges, so my entire roof safety was based on that roof anchor and my gear -- there was no way to work in a safe way without it. Roof anchors are not a big deal -- they are easy to install and easy to remove and caulk with clear caulk so the attachment point is not visible when you are done. How often does the homeowner inspect the roof peak for goodness sakes? The caulk covering a roof anchor hole would never be visible from anywhere, and if installed right a PV system should not require any kind of maintenance outside of a rare module replacement or something. Sometimes the roof pitch is shallow and perhaps a roof anchor per person is not needed, but my job site this week required one roof anchor for each of us -- your life is at stake here, it is important to understand the value and limitations of these products. I have done PV installs on a standing seam metal roof, and I would argue that a roof anchor installed permanently (and painted) with the original installation on a metal roof is a VERY good idea, because after-the-fact roof anchors are not feasible, and the chance of needing to get up there sometime during the life of the roof is likely, and NO travel on a steep pitch metal roof is safe without being anchored. But putting a roof anchor on a residential roof after the fact is SO not a big deal. Attaching to the truck in the driveway might be a safe solution, but only IF the angle of incidence is correct for your safety, i.e. only if the truck is parked exactly opposite where you will be working on the roof. Also, it is only safe until your partner needs to run an errand to pick something up and forgets you are attached to it. Not really funny, I have heard REAL stories of this happening to a colleague. Rather than a vehicle I prefer to use a sturdy tree on the opposite side of the house if this is absolutely the best option and a possibility. For a temporary scenario, i.e. a site assessment on a steep roof or on any icy roof in winter, I use my partner as a safety belay on the north side of the house. Yes, we throw a climbing rope over the house and use tried and true climbing gear, knots, communication protocol (with walkie-talkies), and procedure to help us be safe. The person providing the belay needs to be 'sturdier' than the person on the roof, usually, unless they are also tied off to a tree. In short, two suggestions. Yes, take an OSHA course so you are fully informed of the legal requirements and safety reasons for making sure of roof safety. And, and just as important in my opinion, I'd suggest you hook up with someone who can give you some real fixed-ropes climbing experience. I'm not kidding, this is THE most valuable skill I have as a solar installer. I've taught my subcontracted electricians about roof safety, and ensured that my crew has the best oversight possible because I KNOW what it takes. There is nothing akin to hanging off an exposed cliff, hundreds of feet in the air, with nothing but you, your climbing gear, your climbing harness, and your rope, to ensure your safety. This sort of scenario really taught me how to evaluate my gear and various scenarios so that I will live to see tomorrow and pursue my work towards a more sustainable lifestyle for America. Fixed ropes climbing is also fun! My ascending/rappelling skills are used weekly in my work as a residential solar installer, and a good knowledge of safe knot options has been invaluable as-well. If you can't find a climbing gym locally, find an adventure racing team (more here: http://mandatorygear.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=14Itemid=30) and ask them to spend a few hours training you in -- I'm certain you'll gain some valuable skills from the effort. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Re: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Helios as MC4 substitute
I ran into this same issue last month, and had to do extensive research to determine whether the Amphenol HC4 connector would be 100% compatible with the Multi-Contact connector. I came away very much reassured, and we're switching over to HC4 on a module we're about to release. The deciding factors? Amphenol is a solid, reliable company with many years in the connector business -- this ain't no cheap Chinese knockoff. The electrical connection appears as good as or better than MC, whether mated with itself or with MC. Also, the connector is inherently tool required to disconnect so you don't have to remember/source/add/lose any additional hardware, unlike the Multi-Contact tool required sleeve. The final straw? After many years of having one manufacturer having a near-monopoly on the market but with hit-or-miss supply and less than stellar responsiveness, I'm glad to see another company come to town with a compatible product. I'm in. Phil Undercuffler Conergy On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Rebekah Hren bekahh...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Wrenches, After the MC4 shortage update a few weeks back I started scouting for parts. Amphenol showed up as a compatible connector that can mate with MC4 - apparently Suntech d series modules are switching to Amphenol. Has anyone used/seen these? What do you think the implications might be for connecting an MC4 to a non MC4 (supposedly these mate perfectly and have been tested to have no higher resistance than MC4 to MC4)? Here's a supplier page: http://sg.farnell.com/jsp/level5/module.jsp?moduleId=en/543752.xml I have a pdf of the announcement from Suntech with more info, can email on request. Thanks, Rebekah Hren Durham NC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects be inverter size cables?
The interconnects are part of the circuit. Typical flexible cables used with batteries are THW rated (75C column), so in free air 2/0 interconnects would be good for 265 amps, before any temperature derates. Therefore, you'd be safe from a NEC point of view. However, if the inverter manufacturer has recommended 4/0 cables, then that recommendation would apply to all cables in the circuit. Battery based inverters are asked to surge many times their rated capacity -- a 24V 4kW inverter surging to 2x capacity (pretty normal circumstances) is going to draw over 360 amps (8,000 / 22), even if only for a short period of time. You don't want your interconnects to be the weak link in the system, causing shutdowns due to undervoltage unnecessarily. I'd use 4/0. Phil Undercuffler Conergy On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Mick Abraham m...@abrahamsolar.comwrote: Example: 12 two volt battery cells in one 24 volt string. 4kW inverter/charger has 250 amp DC breaker size and 4/0 cables...as the inverter folks would want. So...do the cell to cell interconnect cables have to also be 4/0? In the example above, 2/0 interconnects would suffice from the standpoint of basic safety...and even from the voltage drop standpoint...right? Inverter company people may be best qualified to answer this, but any replies will be appreciated. While I'm at it: do the inverter folks request oversize cables because they want more capacitance on the DC input...or what? Jolliness, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
The Surrette 2v L16 is one single cell built in a case the size of a standard L16. I've seen other 2v products come out which are really just three 2v cells with internal parallel bus bars, rather than the standard series connections. That means you don't get the real benefits of using larger cells, just fewer interconnects. Try counting the caps. This has been a great string (no pun intended!) Phil Undercuffler Conergy -- Forwarded message -- From: Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries Are they three cells in parrallel or are they one big cell? Hi Jamie, Have you seen any change in cycle life by having the three cells in the L16 connected in parallel instead of series? Just a question that has been on my mind for a while. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Surrette Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:02 PM To: RE-wrenches; jry...@netscape.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries Hi Jeff, Not to plug but we (and some other vendors) have 2V L-16's on offer. So you can get 1000AH (C/20) in a series string in this more manageable size. Regards, Jamie James Surrette ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Megometers
Nick, If the voltage bleeds away when you connect your meter, you're seeing a capacitive charge that accumulates by things like wind blowing across the module -- there's a voltage potential, but no real current there. If the voltage stops at a stable value (especially if the value is some multiple of module open circuit voltage) then you have a ground fault, and the value indicates how many modules in from the end of the string. Happy T-day, everyone! Phil Undercuffler Conergy -- Forwarded message -- From: Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:06:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Megometers Hello Wrenches: I have read a few of the archives on this subject, and have a couple questions. I have been testing arrays with an insulation tester, and have found that some module types have more leakage than other modules. Bill mentioned Amorphous being really bad. I have found my less expensive tester to work for me, but read in another post about the value of a .001 M ohm tester. Is that level of accuracy need? I was testing a Sanyo array today, and was told that ~20M ohms on the series string to ground was not a problem. With the strings isolated, the array conductors commonly have voltage readings of 260V+ to ground, but it dissipates with the meter connected. Is this induced voltage caused by the leakage current that the manufacturer called 'normal?' Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] wiring the Soladeck
Heyco makes a UL Listed, UV resistant cord grip for USE-2 wire, in a range of sizes and hole count. Conergy, and I'm sure other distributors as well, has them in stock. *Material* 6/6 Nylon w/Buna N Sealing Gland *Certifications* Listed under Underwriters’ Laboratories File E51579 Certified By Canadian Standard Association File LR93876C *Flammability* 94V-2–Consult factory for V0 material *Temperature* Static -40°F (-40°C) to 239°F (115°C) Dynamic -4°F (-20°C) to 212°F (100°C) *IP* IP 68 (70 PSI, 5 BAR) More info and spec sheets are available at http://www.heyco.com/products/sec_02/2-15.html Phil Undercuffler Conergy -- Forwarded message -- From: Hans Frederickson h...@fredelectric.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:32:11 -0800 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wiring the Soladeck The 2-hole strain relief is called a cable gland. TB makes a line that includes 2-hole, 3-hole, 4-hole etc. The part numbers all begin with CC-NPT-*. The 2-hole gland is CC-NPT-12-G-2. You can find the complete selection on the last page of this PDF: http://tnblnx3.tnb.com/emAlbum/albums//tc_us/tc_1_ltnonmettalicflex.pdf Be aware the diameter of the wires (USE or PV-wire) that you're running through the gland and make sure you order a part that has the right size holes. I like to run my #6 copper EGC through a gland or cord grip as well. The TB cable glands are not UV resistant, so you don't want to use them where exposed to sunlight (i.e. keep the Soladeck under the array). I've got a collection of UV-resistant cable glands but I can't remember the manufacturer. The problem with those is that they aren't UL listed. If it's not one problem, it's another... ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled Re-visited
Jeff, How would the battery based inverter control the charge? Most modern control algorithms are based around some version of pulse width modulation -- PWM. You open the circuit for a tiny fraction of a second, and as the battery voltage rises the open (off) pulses get wider, and the closed (on) times get shorter. To those of us living in meat time, it looks like the current is magically tapering. However, the GT inverter isn't a generator that can have loads unplugged and plugged back in -- it's a current source. *If *you could open the circuit for a millisecond without tripping the anti-islanding protection, the voltage on its output terminals would begin to rise as the BB inverter tapered the current. You may have seen a similar reaction if you've ever measured the voltage on the PV side of an old-fashioned PWM charge controller when the batteries near full and the charge controller begins to regulate -- the voltage on the PV side begins to drift towards module open circuit voltage. Once the voltage on the GT inverter's output terminals rose to the UL1741/IEEE high limit, the inverter would trip offline. Therefore, the only practical way to regulate the charge is to either tell the GT inverter to stop making power (ie, shut it down by forcing a blackout), tell the GT to throttle back power output via communication (ala Sunnyboy/Sunny Island RS485 and frequency shifts), or to divert that power and absorb it doing some other work. Per my other post, I now think this latter solution is the better idea if you're going to mix brands. Allan asked what would I recommend to accomplish this. There's a couple ways. 1. DC diversion, using standard PWM controller and DC resistance load. Advantages: temperature compensated PWM charge regulation. Disadvantages: difficult to source and size diversion load, and you need to ensure the regulation voltages don't interfere with normal charging and sell back voltages. I can share a good technical bulletin written by Morningstar on sizing DC diversion loads, if you contact me off-list. No magic bullet on keeping regulation voltage out of the way of charging voltages -- it's probably the one aspect that you will spend the most time getting right. 2. AC diversion, using relays driven by Aux Outputs and AC resistance heaters. I believe this is the most practical solution available today for grid tie applications. It's not PWM, but it's far more stable than 5 minute off cycles. Depending upon the brains driving your aux output, it's probably temperature compensated. AC heaters are commonly available in a range of wattages and voltages, and they're dirt cheap. Besides, it's AC power that you're trying to absorb, so why make your BB inverter go through the stress of having to convert that AC power to DC just to send it off to a heating element? If you want to get fancy and have multiple inverters (therefore multiple aux outputs) in the system, you can do staged diversion (1,000 watts of load come on at one voltage, an additional 2,000 watts comes on .2v higher, etc). Same complication of ensuring regulation voltage doesn't interfere with normal charging and sell back voltages apply, however. 3. Christmas Wish-list solution: I've been trying to talk the guys at Outback into creating a Diversion controller that can talk to the rest of the system, provide temperature compensated PWM control of energy flow to a diversion load, but most importantly know when grid power is present and then stay out of the way. That would ensure that there is no time where you're buying AC power from the grid and dumping it to the heater, and it eliminates all the gyrations of staggering voltage setpoints and hoping that the multiple temperature sensors and devices will all play nicely under all conditions. Bonus points if it can work with AC or DC. Extra bonus points if it can work with any brand of equipment (wind or hydro, anyone?). However, I'm just one voice in the wilderness -- if you would like to see a solution such as this come to market, send Outback an email. Let them know Phil sent you ;-) I think there is a lot of opportunity to add power reliability and stability to traditional grid tie systems -- what we need is a way to do it easily and effectively. Here's to looking for a way! Phil Undercuffler Conergy -- Forwarded message -- From: Jeff Yago jry...@netscape.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:53:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled Re-visited There have been some good advice related to battery bank sizing and a better description of how Sunny Islands work with SunnyBoys, but I am afraid we are getting away from my original post that started this and that was: Since a battery based inverter has a battery charging section and all kinds of software control over the charging process when connected to the grid, why does the battery charging process go wild when the grid
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled Re-visited
Kirpal, You’ve got it summed up pretty well, although I would add that you need to use RS485 cards and cabling between the SBs and the SI Master to get regulated charging – the comm. allows the SI to send a handshake to the SB, telling the SB to go into “off grid” mode and accept wider voltage and frequency swings whenever the grid is not present. Kent sums up this control mechanism very succinctly below. The biggest challenge when mixing brands is dealing with the 300 second timeout after grid disturbance (what I call 5 minute PWM) make for less than ideal system operation. There needs to be a better way to regulate power than kicking the string inverter offline. Imagine, say, a 7kW array pumping energy into the home on a beautiful sunny day. The grid goes down, but the battery based inverter (BB) picks up the slack and the grid-tied batteryless inverter (GT) stays online. Home is drawing less power than the array’s output (~6kW worth), and the batteries are full. Battery voltage hits the regulation voltage, and the BB inverter (or the voltage controlled switch) activates a relay to open the circuit to the GT inverter, effecting a blackout on that circuit. Suddenly the BB inverter and the battery bank is hit with the full 6kW of load. The batteries are a little undersized because that was the easiest portion of the system to cut costs on, and they’re a little old and dried out from years of sitting in an uncooled garage, so their voltage sags under the load. The voltage controlled switch senses the drop, and closes the relay to the GT. However, the GT has to stay offline for another 299 seconds and the battery voltage continues to fall….. I’ve been worried about just this scenario for some time, especially as systems age. Therefore, I’ve been suggesting to anyone interested in using mixed brands of inverters (or those who don’t want to use RS485 communications with SB/SI combos) that they strongly consider installing a diversion load and controller capable of absorbing at least the majority of the expected surplus energy. A blackout relay can be used as a secondary control mechanism. I think that this is going to provide the most reliable operation, ultimately. To answer the question about number of inverters, the SMA 5048U supports parallel operation of up to 4 inverters on a single phase system, up to 4 inverters on a split-phase system, or three inverters on a 3-phase system -- all connected to one battery bank. The PV can come through any number of SB inverters, but they would all be connected to the same protected load panel served by the SI. This is one cluster. The rule of thumb John Berdner passed along years ago was up to 2kW of PV for every 1kW of SI. If you can break the load into multiple clusters, the system can be any size -- you just run multiple clusters side by side independently. If the loads can't be separated, then you need to look at using the Multi-cluster box, but that's not yet Listed or even technically available in the US. But if the job is *really *that big, you're playing in a whole 'nother ballpark. Definitely not the job to take on for your first battery based project. Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group *Conergy* *Our World Is Full of Energy* 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us Phil Undercuffler On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:38 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.orgwrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest... When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: AC Coupled Re-visited (Walt Ratterman) -- Forwarded message -- From: Walt Ratterman wratter...@sunenergypower.com To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com, 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:37:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled Re-visited Glenn: This is correct on the battery bank separation. You don’t split out the battery banks until you reach a “cluster”. For example, one three phase setup is a cluster. If you have two, three-phase setups – you have two clusters – and two battery banks. And…I think if you check through the charging parameters, you will find
Re: [RE-wrenches] fronius IG Plus practical engineering WAA???
I should have clarified which derate I was applying. If using the SqD heavy duty unfused disconnects with two poles series connected, it is rated at 100% continuous, so only the sunlight can be brighter than STC derate need be applied (30 / 1.25 = 24). If using the fusible disconnect, then you'd need to apply a second derate for the fuses (30 / 1.25 / 1.25 = 19.2 amps). If you want to run a subarray through a single pole per the special listing, then the 1.56 derate would apply, whether it's fusible or non-fusible. In addition, the maximum current per pole (the number you work back from) would be *18*/60/100 amps -- due to arc clearance issues, apparently, they were not able to obtain the full 30 amps on the smallest disconnect. Again, it's great to have options, and Square D should be commended for upping the ante and expanding the listings for their equipment to aid the solar installer. Phil Undercuffler On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.comwrote: If I use the Hu361 (unfused) it has the 30 amp rating, the 80% reduction only applies if I use fuses per the continuous operation derating for overcurrent devices. The switch is not a conductor or overcurrent device. If I use the H361 (fused) then the 80% derate applies, (24 amps) and if I use the double break I am limited to 18 amps in all cases. Darryl Correct? --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: From: Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] fronius IG Plus practical engineering WAA??? To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 10:47 PM They added a special listing, where they were able to expand the range of their heavy duty switch when used in PV direct applications. The special PV listing doesn't void the standard wiring methods, however. You can still run the full 30 amps (24 * 1.25) through two poles series connected, or you can bring multiple subarrays through each of the poles, each with a lower individual Isc limit but with an aggregate higher current capacity. This really becomes handy on the larger 60 and 100A disconnects. Suddenly, a 3 pole 100A disconnect can be used for three large subarrays to a central inverter, which saves considerably on BOS costs. Also, be aware that (the last I looked) the special listing doesn't apply to their 200A and larger disconnects. Phil Undercuffler On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com wrote: Again this is FMI for my information, Did not Square D change there rating for PV systems? Darryl --- On Fri, 6/26/09, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: From: Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] fronius IG Plus practical engineering WAA??? snip This confirmed my understanding that the limiting factor on the 30A switch in a photovoltaic applications is not 30A * 0.8. The limiting factor is 18A per pole or 11.5A Isc per pole. unsnip To clarify – the 18A per pole / 11.5A Isc per pole only applies if you are using the limited listing for PV applications, with one string or subarray per pole. If you wire the HU361RB disconnect with two poles connected in series, then you may run the switch at 100% of its rating. Therefore, you can stuff up to 24 amps Isc (24 * 1.25 = 30) through a single disconnect if the poles are wired in series, or you can run 3 subarrays each with no more than 11.5A per pole if wired in parallel. Sometimes it’s good to have options. Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE
Re: [RE-wrenches] fronius IG Plus practical engineering WAA???
They added a special listing, where they were able to expand the range of their heavy duty switch when used in PV direct applications. The special PV listing doesn't void the standard wiring methods, however. You can still run the full 30 amps (24 * 1.25) through two poles series connected, or you can bring multiple subarrays through each of the poles, each with a lower individual Isc limit but with an aggregate higher current capacity. This really becomes handy on the larger 60 and 100A disconnects. Suddenly, a 3 pole 100A disconnect can be used for three large subarrays to a central inverter, which saves considerably on BOS costs. Also, be aware that (the last I looked) the special listing doesn't apply to their 200A and larger disconnects. Phil Undercuffler On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.comwrote: Again this is FMI for my information, Did not Square D change there rating for PV systems? Darryl --- On Fri, 6/26/09, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: From: Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] fronius IG Plus practical engineering WAA??? snip This confirmed my understanding that the limiting factor on the 30A switch in a photovoltaic applications is not 30A * 0.8. The limiting factor is 18A per pole or 11.5A Isc per pole. unsnip To clarify – the 18A per pole / 11.5A Isc per pole only applies if you are using the limited listing for PV applications, with one string or subarray per pole. If you wire the HU361RB disconnect with two poles connected in series, then you may run the switch at 100% of its rating. Therefore, you can stuff up to 24 amps Isc (24 * 1.25 = 30) through a single disconnect if the poles are wired in series, or you can run 3 subarrays each with no more than 11.5A per pole if wired in parallel. Sometimes it’s good to have options. Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] stacking grid tied Outback
Jeff, It is somewhat possible to use all ten inverters, but with some severe limitations. The best solution depends upon exactly what you've got, and what your client needs. The joy begins with the fundamental limitation of G series inverters to Classic Stack only. They parallel on the grid side, but normally need totally different output panels, battery banks and PV input. You'd think you could break up your 10 inverters into 5 systems (each on its own Hub4 and RTS) sharing a common battery, feeding 5 separate protected loads panels. But unfortunately no, it's not quite that easy. The issue is, at some point a month or so down the line the grid power drops, and the system begins to draw down the batteries. After grid power resumes, all 5 systems begin to charge the shared battery bank. No problem, eh? What's to worry? Well, eventually one of those inverter pair systems will see the battery as being full, and switch back to GT mode. It tries to sell down the batteries. However, the other handful of systems think the battery isn't quite full, and they ramp their charging back up. Eventually the client wonders why his meter no longer turns backwards, and calls you back out. IF you have 6kW or less of renewable input, I'd suggest leave the system wired as it is (two G series selling back, 8 standard FX in Outback Stack to a separate protected big loadcenter) but disable AC charging capability on the 8 stack. This will leave you with ~6kW of backup charging capability. You have to leave the AC charging to the G inverters, as they need to be the ones who determine when it's ok to stop charging and sell back. The output of the G series inverters will need to be run to a separate protected load panel, and all charge controllers need to share the same Hub with the G's. If you have more than 6kW of renewables, then split off additional inverters or pairs of inverters with their own Hub. Each would then need its own separate protected load panel, and would of course need to be swapped out for G series. However, and this is the fun part, at this point you need to disable ALL AC charging capability. All recovery after a power outage will have to come from renewables. Which might or might not be a good thing. Good luck Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us --original message: I have not seen the system yet, but was told he has ten (10) Outback inverters, 2 configured for sell back and 8 notWas told they could be factory re-configured to all sell back, but can only stack two inverters in sell modeIf true, why can't you just parallel multiple stacks of dual inverters and just feed each pair to their own circuit breaker in the main panel? Jeff Yago ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?
Last time I checked, Xantrex had no more SWI cables available. However, I do have the pinout for the SWI that they were willing to share, if you care to homebrew your own. DB25 male to male connectors and ribbon cable -- should be able to find those pretty easily. If interested, contact me OFF-List. Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us -Original Message- From: bob ellison Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable? Would it be possible to make one if we had a sample to know the wire order? Bob -Original Message- I need to track down a '98 vintage Trace SW stacking cable. Anyone have or know where I might find one? Thanks, Jeff C. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] dpw top of pole mount pipe problems
You know how to break cast iron pipe in a clean break flush with the ground? Hit it with a hammer. It snaps clean off, flush with the ground. Works with clay pipe too. Concrete may provide additional strength in a compressive mode, but has nearly zero strength in tensile (stretching) mode. Roy is right - don't touch that pipe. Reminds me of a job I visited years ago - dirt poor folks, with barely enough cash to keep food on the table. Somehow they managed to scrape up enough cash to buy 300 watts of PV and a rack, but then mounted it on 6 PVC water pipe because steel was too expensive. You could watch the modules sway in the breeze, but my skin crawled thinking how long that PVC would last under the New Mexican sun. No matter how I pleaded, they didn't want to put in the work to change it out because it hadn't had any problems yet. Either change out the pipe and bill him for the expense (don't forget to first get him to sign a change order confirming the details), or cash out and walk away. Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us mailto:p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us http://www.conergy.us/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of North Texas Renewable Energy Inc Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:02 AM To: r...@solar4maine.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] dpw top of pole mount pipe problems Filling the pipe with concrete would strengthen it quite a bit but will also cause condensation on the outside during a lot of the year. Did I mention that pouring concrete from a half full 5 gallon pail while on a ladder is a real pain. Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy Inc 817.917.0527 nt...@earthlink.net www.ntrei.com - Original Message - From: r...@solar4maine.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:40 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] dpw top of pole mount pipe problems Wrenches i have a customer that wanted to install a dpw top of pole mount for 18 sharp 180 watt panels. he installed his own pipe and even after several reminders by me and a signed contract stating shcedule 80 8 inch steel pipe he installed a 8 inch cast iron water main. My dilemma is this he claims to wave my liability in this install but he has been a very high maintnence customer and seems to forget everything we talk about or he signs. so would you go ahead with the install or is the cast iron going to shear off and the rack fall over? financially i have met my obligations with the customer i can wave the labor cost and tell him to find someone else at this point if need be i dont want to be liable for spilling 18 panels on the ground and my insurance wouldnt cover it as we went against dpw's recomendations ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wanted: poly battery boxes, many sizes
You can build your own boxes to fit your client's specific application, using polypropylene sheet stock. It cuts and shapes with standard woodworking tools, and the seams can be welded (google plastic welder) or if you're not up for that learning curve you can use 3M VHB tape. The tape approach is especially handy if you are only building one or two boxes. Costs of sheet poly vary with market conditions, but pricing is in line with what you would spend buying, patching and finishing plywood, but you wind up with a solid product which won't degrade, rot, conduct electricity or rust and is impervious to battery acid. If you don't want to roll your own, I'd check your local yellow pages for plastic fabricators. There are companies like UPF that build poly tanks for fire trucks on a national level, http://www.unitedplastic.com/pages/products/equip-accesories.html, but there's nothing magical about welding poly -- you should be able to find a local shop to build you what you need. Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 p.undercuff...@conergy.us Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wanted: poly battery boxes, many sizes Larry, I've found the Contico Pro Tuff Bin (Lowes part number 91573 - $65, or Grainger part number 1DZE8 - $70) to work well for holding four L-16 batteries. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar www.bluemountainsolar.com Starlight Solar, Yuma, AZ wrote: Greetings Wrenches, I need to find a supplier of polyethylene battery boxes for small batteries. 2,4 or 6 golf cart batteries will need to fit in several different configurations. Also for two or four L-16's. Contact me if you know of any manufacturers or distributors for such products. Kindest Regards, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar (928) 941-1660 Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] tankless hot water and pumping question
snip off grid with water being trucked in and stored in a ground level polyethylene tank. snip My building inspector does not allow grade level tanks as the warm temp adds to bacteria growth. I agree with Darryl about putting the tanks underground, otherwise they become veritable cornucopia of bugs and nasties. Having lived 14 years off of rain water catch in NM (supplemented with my fair share of hauled water) I strongly suggest adding a simple low water indicator LED to give a warning before the tank runs dry. Otherwise I guarantee the pump will begin to spit air just when you are standing in the shower with shampoo in your hair. Ask me how I know. The indicator can be a cheap LED from Radio Shack, combined with a resistor to drop the voltage. Calculating the resistor value is a simple matter, given the voltage drop across LED and desired current in circuit. For instance, if your LED is rated for 1.7v 20 mA, and your design voltage is 30 (highest expected voltage while charging), 30-1.7=28.3 28.3=IR 28.3/.02=R R=1415 Therefore, find a resistor with a value near 1415 and wire it in series with the LED. I've run the circuit into the house on standard signal cable (1 amp fuse at the power end, of course) and installed the LEDs through a blank cover plate somewhere unobtrusive but noticeable inside. Then, it's a simple matter of tethering a pump up (close on fall) float switch so that it triggers with enough time to plan a water delivery. I should also throw in that, having made it through all this time living off the blessings (and curses) of the Rain Goddess, the big news in the Undercuffler household is we're finally breaking down and putting in a well - yep, the driller shows up next week. Keeping my fingers and toes crossed for sweet water, close to the surface! Phil Undercuffler Director, Battery-based and Off-grid Distribution Sales Group Conergy Our World Is Full of Energy 1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103 Santa Fe, NM 87507 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Direct | 505.216.3841 Toll Free | 888.396.6611 x4841 Fax | 505.473.3830 www.conergy.us ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
