Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

2016-04-26 Thread Chris Mason 
Propane generator expert here - certified Generac technician.

Chances are the problem lies with the fuel supply. Your inverter is working
better, taking more power, putting more current into the batteries.
Therefore the generator, which is well within it's rating, is taking more
fuel.
99% of propane generator problems are improperly specified or installed
propane or NatGas supply. Most people don't read the manual, and the
requirements are always more than people realize.
An 8KW propane unit will need a 3/4" line or more to develop full power. If
the fuel is being starved, it will run rough. It will only happen under
load.
Get hold of a manometer and measure the gas pressure at the internal
regulator. You should see a steady 11" WC for propane or 7" WC for NatGas.
Measure under load. If the pressure drops, there's your problem.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Chris Daum  wrote:

>  Dear people:
>
> I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
> of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
> other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
> he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's
> at
> a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
> time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
> generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After
> 3
> hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator
> (and
> hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
> Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
> 406-777-0830 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
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-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

2016-04-26 Thread jerrysgarage01 


ChrisA few questionsAre you drawing from both AC legs from the genny, at max of 
2200 watts per leg then the genny should not have an issue but if you upsized 
the batteries and as stated by Mike the fuel delivery system cant keep up 
because the inverter charge load is higher, steady and for long duration. Can 
you load test the genny at 240 and see if the issue happens with out the 
inverter at all.  When we size a propane tank we like to see at least 75 lbs 
per 3 kw genny depending on air temp, bigger when colder, its all about 
available BTU.Jerry


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Mike Kocsmiersky <mi...@spiritsolar.net> 
Date: 4/26/2016  12:41 AM  (GMT-10:00) 
To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems 

Chris,
In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current
(or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior
battery bank.  I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for
fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not
evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset.  This
caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually
would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize.  This doesn't sound like
it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the
longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to
evaporate enough.  May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently
overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and
can't maintain pressure.  May want to check the tank size of propane for the
genset.  (I'm assuming this is LPG).



Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Phone: 413 883-3144 
Spirit Solar
www.SpiritSolar.net



-Original Message-
From: Chris Daum [mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

2016-04-26 Thread Mike Kocsmiersky 
Chris,
In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current
(or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior
battery bank.  I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for
fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not
evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset.  This
caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually
would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize.  This doesn't sound like
it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the
longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to
evaporate enough.  May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently
overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and
can't maintain pressure.  May want to check the tank size of propane for the
genset.  (I'm assuming this is LPG).



Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Phone: 413 883-3144 
Spirit Solar
www.SpiritSolar.net



-Original Message-
From: Chris Daum [mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

2016-04-21 Thread Ray Walters 
That doesn't make sense,  the inverter's charger determines the max 
charge rate and the max draw from the generator.
The 8.5 kW Kohler should have no problem running the 4.4 kW Magnum.
What is the altitude?
Is it wired for 240 vac ?  If the generator is running at 120 vac, then 
you are only running on one leg and hence operating at half power.
It will also lead to long term damage of the generator.   Its like 
pedaling a bicycle with one pedal.

The Magnum MS4448 PAE is designed for 240vac input.
The problem might only be showing itself now, because the new batteries 
are actually requiring closer to full charger power from the Magnum.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/21/2016 1:40 PM, Chris Daum wrote:

  Dear people:

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

2016-04-21 Thread Kevin Pegg 
Hi Chris, 

The problem summary is a bit light on details to be too specific. What, 
precisely, does a generator running "rough" mean? Overheating? Smoking? Breaker 
tripping? 

THE MS4448 has about 3 kW charging capability (63A @ 50 VDC). So the 8.5 kW 
Kohler should be able to handle that easily, depending on what else is running. 
Derating the charge capacity to 1.5 kW not sure what that would accomplish 
other than burning more fuel. 

Sounds like perhaps a generator service is in order. 

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Chris Daum
Sent: April-21-16 12:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 of 
the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and other 
components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since he's 
installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at a great 
distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to time. They 
believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw generator" and 
recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 hrs run, it seems 
to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and hence, use more 
fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com



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[RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

2016-04-21 Thread Chris Daum 
 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com



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