Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

You should start a new thread and not use this one. You will get more 
response! Good Luck!


---

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-20 9:42 am, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches wrote:

I have an LG RESU-10H Gen2 Type R battery that has discharged so far 
that the display will no longer turn on.  Apparently, there is a 
recovery process for this situation that involves using an 
LG-sanctioned charger that will properly manage the BMS throughout the 
recovery process.  I have access to the correct charger for this 
purpose.


However, I have searched the Internet and Youtube and cannot find any 
instructions that explain how to operate the charger and recover the LG 
battery.


Does anyone on this group have experience with this situation and can 
help?  Is there a service manual for the LG RESU battery that explains 
how to recharge it in this situation (again, can find nothing but the 
installation manual on the internet).


Many thanks for any insights.

Tom McCalmont

On Feb 20, 2024, at 8:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount.

"The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn't require extra holding current 
in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA."


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount

Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4.

Thanks for the feedback Dave.
I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available 
in the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware.

Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen.
Eric

Eric Bentsen

Auburn, WA
United States

[3]

[4]

Download mySchneider app [4]

24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help.

[5]  [6]  [7]  [8]  [9]  [10]  [11]

Genera

-

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

[1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

 Original Message ----

Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

Date:
2024-02-16 3:11 pm

From:
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 



To:
RE-wrenches 

Cc:
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

Reply-To:
offgridso...@sti.net, RE-wrenches 

Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount 
system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name 
on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 
30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway 
closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others 
you should.


The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get 
resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext 
Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test 
their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is 
working fine.


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount 
[12]


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

[1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away 
from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar 
suggest

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

The LG charger probably generates the Heartbeat signal you need to fool 
the contactor to be on for charging.


I Think! My experience is with the 48V RESU 10 and not the  RESU 10H 
that is a 400vdc battery.


There were a few people on here with 10H so hang on.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-20 9:42 am, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches wrote:

I have an LG RESU-10H Gen2 Type R battery that has discharged so far 
that the display will no longer turn on.  Apparently, there is a 
recovery process for this situation that involves using an 
LG-sanctioned charger that will properly manage the BMS throughout the 
recovery process.  I have access to the correct charger for this 
purpose.


However, I have searched the Internet and Youtube and cannot find any 
instructions that explain how to operate the charger and recover the LG 
battery.


Does anyone on this group have experience with this situation and can 
help?  Is there a service manual for the LG RESU battery that explains 
how to recharge it in this situation (again, can find nothing but the 
installation manual on the internet).


Many thanks for any insights.

Tom McCalmont

On Feb 20, 2024, at 8:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount.

"The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn't require extra holding current 
in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA."


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount

Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4.

Thanks for the feedback Dave.
I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available 
in the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware.

Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen.
Eric

Eric Bentsen

Auburn, WA
United States

[3]

[4]

Download mySchneider app [4]

24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help.

[5]  [6]  [7]  [8]  [9]  [10]  [11]

Genera

-

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

[1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

 Original Message ----

Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

Date:
2024-02-16 3:11 pm

From:
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 



To:
RE-wrenches 

Cc:
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

Reply-To:
offgridso...@sti.net, RE-wrenches 

Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount 
system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name 
on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 
30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway 
closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others 
you should.


The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get 
resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext 
Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test 
their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is 
working fine.


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount 
[12]


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

[1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches]

I have an LG RESU-10H Gen2 Type R battery that has discharged so far that the 
display will no longer turn on.  Apparently, there is a recovery process for 
this situation that involves using an LG-sanctioned charger that will properly 
manage the BMS throughout the recovery process.  I have access to the correct 
charger for this purpose.

However, I have searched the Internet and Youtube and cannot find any 
instructions that explain how to operate the charger and recover the LG battery.

Does anyone on this group have experience with this situation and can help?  Is 
there a service manual for the LG RESU battery that explains how to recharge it 
in this situation (again, can find nothing but the installation manual on the 
internet).

Many thanks for any insights.

Tom McCalmont


> On Feb 20, 2024, at 8:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount. 
> 
> "The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn’t require extra holding current in 
> either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA."
> 
> https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount
> 
> 
> 
> Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the feedback Dave.
> I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available in the 
> dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware.
> Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen.
> Eric
>  
>  
>  
> Eric Bentsen
>   
> Auburn, WA
> United States
>  <https://youtu.be/dux6kG13QWM>
>  <https://www.se.com/en/work/support/myschneider-app/>
> Download mySchneider app <https://www.se.com/en/work/support/myschneider-app/>
> 24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help.
>  
>  <https://www.facebook.com/SchneiderElectric>  
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/schneider-electric>  <https://blog.se.com/> 
>  <https://www.twitter.com/SchneiderElec>  
> <https://www.youtube.com/schneidercorporate>  
> <https://instagram.com/schneiderelectric>  
> <https://www.se.com/ww/en/about-us/sustainability/responsibility-ethics/trustline/>
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Genera
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> 
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>    <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/  
> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
> text 209 813 0060
>  
>  Original Message 
> 
> Subject:
> Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment
> Date:
> 2024-02-16 3:11 pm
> From:
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
> mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> To:
> RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Cc:
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>>
> Reply-To:
> offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>, RE-wrenches 
> mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>  
> Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system 
> in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive 
> batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If 
> you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, 
> Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.
>  
> The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
> because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a 
> home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed 
> loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.
>  
> https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount
>  
>  
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>    <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/  
> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
> text 209 813 0060
>  
> On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> 
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer 
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We 
> had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and 
> lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or 
> replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to 
> remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe 
> donate them. We've only had luck with Sch

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount.

"The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn't require extra holding current 
in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA."


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount

Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4.

Thanks for the feedback Dave.

I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available in 
the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware.


Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen.

Eric

Eric Bentsen

Auburn, WA
United States

 [9]

 [10]

Download mySchneider app [10]

24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help.

 [11]  [12]  [13]  [14]  [15]  [16]  [17]

Genera

-

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

   [7]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [8]  [7]

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

 Original Message ----

Subject:

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

Date:

2024-02-16 3:11 pm

From:

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 



To:

RE-wrenches 

Cc:

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

Reply-To:

offgridso...@sti.net, RE-wrenches 

Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount 
system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name 
on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh 
with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop 
into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.


The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is 
a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first 
closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount 
[18]


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

   [7]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [8]  [7]

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away 
from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar 
suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY 
market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. 
However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see 
that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the 
Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. 
I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 
1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't 
have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is 
quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, 
but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or 
the EG4).


My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 
inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current 
take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality 
of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the 
EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the 
Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things 
about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the pr

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches]

I can tell, there is intense competition for
market share right now, so if enough of the installer base pushes
for these necessary changes, they will do there best to
accommodate us.

The areas I see needing significant improvements:

  * Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication
(standard industry wide protocols?)
  * True Lead-Acid programming capabilities
  * More finesse with the AGS controls

And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4
equipment, I'd be happy to hear about them on or off list.

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

Drake:

I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s
are pretty good and they allow one string configuration in
larger AH settings.

I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However
there is no substitute for good remote monitoring and
control.  I can understand much better the operation of
systems with easy access to historic data and I save a
butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island
files could be obtained remotely for better analysis.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf
Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn.
Once the equipment became software based, the reliability
dropped. Sure, there are nice features available with these
cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in reliability makes
being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.

There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried
their new 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?

As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head
club, especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid
batteries, especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and
it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.

What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake

---

On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises
from their dealer oriented support department that we
could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS
crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we
still don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been
a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove
them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large
system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed
loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES,
there have been some issues that are causing me to
re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation
this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said
the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead
acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing
from the client when it was time for another bank.
Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over
the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much
money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients.
Rant Over

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via
RE-wrenches  wrote:

Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4
inverters and batteries. The comments have been
mostly positive.  I have stayed away from EG4 until
now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar
suggested last June - that is, they seemed very
oriented to the DIY market and not real serious
contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was
at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to
see that the EG4 18k inverter is,

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

t; I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
>> good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
>> substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
>> better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
>> save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
>> could be obtained remotely for better analysis.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment
>>
>>
>>
>> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
>> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
>> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
>> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>>
>> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
>> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>>
>> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
>> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
>> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>>
>> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
>> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
>> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
>> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
>> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
>> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
>> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
>> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
>> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
>> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
>> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
>> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
>> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
>> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
>> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
>> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
>> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
>> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
>> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
>> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
>> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
>> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
>> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
>> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
>> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
>> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
>> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
>> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
>> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
>> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>>
>>
>>
>> My question is, for folk

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches]

Hi Howie,

 I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I 
originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to experiment 
with before recommending them to clients, I quickly ended up with 7 
clients with them and all the installs are performing without issues, 
these are all OFF GRID without comms between the battery and inverter, 
I'm keeping them above freezing with insulated battery box's and heating 
pads when necessary, Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor 
shed installs because of summer heat in central N.M.


 One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar Techs 
started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to 20% SOC when 
commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS could learn what 
the normal operating range would be for the battery as to prevent early 
low voltage shut down events, I thought this was going to be too 
burdensome for off grid clients or for me,  a few clients didn't mind 
doing that commissioning recommendation but most haven't done it and 
there hasn't been any issues.


 The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL ratings, it 
has fire suppression pads in them that will melt down on top of the 
battery at high temps if they are mounted in a flat orientation, I have 
a few clients with the EG4 rack cabinet but most are mounted face up in 
the original insulated L16 or Surrette industrial cell battery box's, 
Signature solar has said this orientation will not void the warranty or 
effect operation of the battery.


  Carl Hansen

  Hansen Electric  505 470-0770


On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


All,

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. 
I'm disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but 
not overly surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously 
had decent things to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) 
would chime in with updated reviews. I have been seduced into using 
relatively new products that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" 
before, only to more times than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted 
time and reputation.


For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an 
improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the 
client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go that 
route.  There are certainly plenty of on going issues with many of 
these relatively new products, some larger headaches than I'm happy 
about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily toward advantage 
Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of the immediate problems, 
and their documentable efficiency and low maintenance (along with 
fewer holes in my clothes) win the argument for me.


I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to 
solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams 
have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with 
Lead-Acid, because as has been noted, as they currently are 
configured, Lead-Acid management has been a mostly a slipshod 
afterthought. There are several other areas they will need to focus 
before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can 
tell, there is intense competition for market share right now, so if 
enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary changes, they 
will do there best to accommodate us.


The areas I see needing significant improvements:

  * Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard
industry wide protocols?)
  * True Lead-Acid programming capabilities
  * More finesse with the AGS controls

And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, 
I'd be happy to hear about them on or off list.


Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Drake:

I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are
pretty good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH
settings.

I agree that as features grow so does complexity. However there is
no substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can
understand much better the operation of systems with easy access
to historic data and I save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the
Outback and Sunny Island files could be obtained remotely for
better analysis.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once
the equipment becam

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

All,

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm
disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but not overly
surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously had decent things
to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with
updated reviews. I have been seduced into using relatively new products
that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more times
than not, end up frustrated with wasted time and reputation.

For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an improvement
over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the client is willing
to spend the money, I encourage them to go that route.  There are certainly
plenty of on going issues with many of these relatively new products, some
larger headaches than I'm happy about. On balance however, my calculus
leans heavily toward advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most
of the immediate problems, and their documentable efficiency and low
maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win the argument for me.

I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to solve
that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams have chosen to
market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with Lead-Acid, because as
has been noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid management has
been a mostly a slipshod afterthought. There are several other areas they
will need to focus before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However,
as best I can tell, there is intense competition for market share right
now, so if enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary changes,
they will do there best to accommodate us.

The areas I see needing significant improvements:

   - Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard
   industry wide protocols?)
   - True Lead-Acid programming capabilities
   - More finesse with the AGS controls

And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, I'd
be happy to hear about them on or off list.

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Drake:
>
>
>
> I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
> good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.
>
>
>
> I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
> substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
> better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
> save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
> could be obtained remotely for better analysis.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment
>
>
>
> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technica

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

I would challenge that inspector's assumption.  It starts becoming 
precedent if you don't.  I have challenged many rulings, and have lived 
to tell the tale.  There's a process and you just politely go through 
the process.  Often just mentioning that I will challenge a particular 
assumption like "lead acid batteries aren't allowed", will get them to 
back down on the spot.  Getting solar trade organizations on your side 
to help with the process can add much needed weight.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/17/2024 2:26 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote:
Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not 
needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid 
in IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL 
residential ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility 
interconnect, must be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC 
says so.


As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid 
side; as far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not 
intended or proceed for residential off-grid use.


Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to
9540 or 1973...    we are still trying to work out the kinks of
these UL codes.   This what happens when people try to blanket fix
a problem with one technology and apply it across the board
without a full understanding of the different chemistries that are
out there.



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
How are lead batteries dealing with this?

thanks
jay


On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

Chris;

I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all
the same reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much
trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid for now.  I missed
the acid burned jeans, its a "look".

Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid
battery at 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same
thing? At least lead acid can be recovered to some extent. 
I'm not married to either platform, I just want to spend my
customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after
having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead
acid is back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations
need to be replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important
issues:
1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.

I think we're close, but definitely not there.

Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation
needs to evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other
Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're
being forced to comply with all the same regulations as the
less stable, more energy dense chemistries.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:

Howie,

The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same
manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all
make sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress
has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing
a significant amount of programming and additional
integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring
platform.

Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4.
The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I
have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment
thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they
watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks
free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off
completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But
with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t
be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel
differently about Fortress Power and although they have been
a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe
that they are well intentioned and that their products and
business are solid.

There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I
will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent
issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dan Fink via RE-wrenches]

Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not
needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid in
IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL residential
ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility interconnect, must
be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC says so.

As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid side; as
far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not intended or
proceed for residential off-grid use.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342




On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or
> 1973...we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes.
>  This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one
> technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of
> the different chemistries that are out there.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
>> How are lead batteries dealing with this?
>>
>> thanks
>> jay
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Chris;
>>
>> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
>> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading
>> back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a
>> "look".
>>
>> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
>> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid
>> can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I
>> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and
>> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is
>> back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced,
>> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
>> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
>> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
>>
>> I think we're close, but definitely not there.
>>
>> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
>> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4
>> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the
>> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Howie,
>>
>> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
>> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
>> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
>> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
>> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.
>>
>> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
>> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
>> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
>> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
>> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
>> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
>> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
>> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
>> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
>> intentioned and that their products and business are solid.
>>
>> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
>> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
>> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
>> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
>> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
>> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
>> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
>> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
>> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
>> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
>> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
>> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
>> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.
>>
>> Kindly,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or
1973...we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes.
 This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one
technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of
the different chemistries that are out there.



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
> How are lead batteries dealing with this?
>
> thanks
> jay
>
> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Chris;
>
> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading
> back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a
> "look".
>
> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid
> can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I
> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and
> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is
> back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced,
> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
>
> I think we're close, but definitely not there.
>
> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4
> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the
> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Howie,
>
> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.
>
> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
> intentioned and that their products and business are solid.
>
> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.
>
> Kindly,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
>> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
>> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
>> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
>> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
>> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
>> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
>> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
>> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
>> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
>> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[jay via RE-wrenches]

A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.  
How are lead batteries dealing with this? 

thanks
jay

> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Chris;
> 
> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same reasons 
> you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading back to 
> lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a "look". 
> 
> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 16 
> v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid can be 
> recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I just want to 
> spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after having 
> both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is back.  Maybe 
> when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, LFP will have 
> solved 2 very important issues:
> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.  
> 
> I think we're close, but definitely not there.  
> 
> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to evolve 
> to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4 is 
> inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the same 
> regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. 
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 
> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> Howie,
>> 
>> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, 
>> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for 
>> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this 
>> unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional 
>> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. 
>> 
>> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was 
>> chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has 
>> called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because 
>> they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air 
>> conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in 
>> their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, 
>> I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel 
>> differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little 
>> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well 
>> intentioned and that their products and business are solid. 
>> 
>> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to 
>> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell 
>> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid 
>> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly 
>> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware 
>> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m 
>> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from 
>> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those 
>> phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO 
>> monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill 
>> of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable 
>> improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, 
>> the truck rolls a lot less. 
>> 
>> Kindly,
>> 
>> Chris 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
>> > > wrote:
>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is 
>> a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be 
>> important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but 
>> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed 
>> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently 
>> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did 
>> not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had 
>> already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our 
>> county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system 
>> that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the 
>> altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so 
>> much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
>> 
>> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the 
>> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said 
>> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to 
>> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Becareful with the EG4s and  AGMs.   Last I checked the EG4s couldn't be
properly programmed to charge at a high enough voltage to properly charge
some of the heavier plated AGM.   Surrette and Full river AGMs need to be
charged at 58.8 temp compensated to -4mv/deg/c...

The EG4s like the Sol Arks and a ton of the Hybrid inverters aren't really
made to charge lead batteries in general... some you can make work, many
you can't.

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 10:06 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Surrette and Full river AGM's  Been berry berry good to me!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I used to be Lead AGM for Off-grid; I used the Pure Lead Thin Plate for an
install 4 years ago from AltE, and it is still working fine.  I believe the
LiFe is the battery for off-grid and the trick is to find the correct BMS,

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 11:43 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
> (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
> at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
> with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
> certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
> of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
> tech support.
>
> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Chris;

I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same 
reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm 
heading back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its 
a "look".


Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 
16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid 
can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I 
just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, 
and after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead 
acid is back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be 
replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:

1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.

I think we're close, but definitely not there.

Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to 
evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  
LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with 
all the same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:

Howie,

The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same 
manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make 
sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed 
from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of 
programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to 
their monitoring platform.


Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX 
line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed 
paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and 
want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where 
unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 
off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with 
the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if 
they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress 
Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter 
market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their 
products and business are solid.


There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree 
to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and 
cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid 
applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in 
strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary 
firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault 
Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we 
came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 
volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my 
pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of 
dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that 
I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made 
for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot 
less.


Kindly,

Chris






On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in
general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those
listings may not be important to various DIY folks of
varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for
my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are
not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted
Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did
not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
client had already purchased an entire rack of them before
consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk
recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection.
Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings
on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much,
limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)

Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc
etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing
certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed
me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a
listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can
use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and
also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirementsbut from
my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540.
When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating
with me.

I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:



I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.



I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
could be obtained remotely for better analysis.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment



I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.

There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?

As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.

What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake



---





On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over



On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi All,



I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).



My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm
not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery,
but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI
batteries are certainly eye-catching.



I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Surrette and Full river AGM's  Been berry berry good to me!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the 
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there 
are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the 
cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to 
accomplish.


There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new 
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?


As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, 
especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, 
especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality 
isn't what it used to be.


What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake

---

On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away 
from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar 
suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY 
market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. 
However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see 
that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the 
Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I 
have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 
1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't 
have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is 
quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, 
but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or 
the EG4).


My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 
inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current 
take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality 
of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 
LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the 
Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about 
the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly 
smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly 
eye-catching.


I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the 
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues 
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated 
units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is 
so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option 
to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the 
other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut 
down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting 
process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't 
seen that problem" responses from tech support.


I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so 
I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight.


Thanks,

Howie Michaelson

Sun Catcher ___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches]

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there
are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the
cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to
accomplish. 


There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? 


As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club,
especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries,
especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality
isn't what it used to be. 

What is the best AGM battery these days? 

Thanks, 

Drake 


---

On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:


We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer 
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We 
had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and 
lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or 
replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to 
remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe 
donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed 
loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, 
despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but 
we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, 
there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. 
I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then 
ten
years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over 


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote: 

Hi All, 

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). 

My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.  

I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support.  

I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. 

Thanks, 

Howie Michaelson 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

fortress is making improvements to their firmware for sure. The fortress envy 12 has generator warmup/cool down which is a really important feature  IMO. The eg4 not. Nor does the Deye sol ark. JayOn Feb 16, 2024, at 8:48 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches  wrote:Howie,The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their products and business are solid. There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. Kindly,Chris On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches  wrote:The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me.I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting both AHJs and manufacturers. Dan FinkOwner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLCIREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind InstallationNABCEP Certified PV System InspectorNABCEP PV Associatedanbo...@gmail.com970-672-4342


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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Beyond the listing issues, there are also the NFPA 855 maximum energy
storage limitations to consider that battery manufacturers and distributors
are not considering in their marketing, leading consumers to conclusions
that won't work. I have a client who purchased three full racks of EG4 LL
as a kit and intended to put them in a garage. That's 5.12kWh x 3 x 6 =
92.16 kWh. That exceeds the 80kWh limit. I had to break the news and tell
them to return three of the batteries.

It seems pretty strange for Tesla to be putting out a 13.5kWh Powerwall 3
(13.5 x 3 > 40kWh and 13.5 x 6 > 80kWh). The EG4 PowerPro at 14.3kWh
suffers from the same capacity issues. At least Enphase has its head out of
the sand and offers options at precisely 40kWh and 80kWh capacity ratings.

Manufacturers seem to have a cavalier attitude toward these issues and make
it the designer/installer's issue to deal with. Meanwhile, they are losing
sales when they make a battery that puts them at 42.9kWh for a 3-pack.
Strange...

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 9:34 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I
> like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
>
> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the
> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said
> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
> requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
> communicating with me.
>
> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
> both AHJs and manufacturers.
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

Howie,

The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.

Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
intentioned and that their products and business are solid.

There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.

Kindly,

Chris






On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I
> like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
>
> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the
> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said
> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
> requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
> communicating with me.
>
> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
> both AHJs and manufacturers.
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
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> other:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dan Fink via RE-wrenches]

The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I
like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)

Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the
EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said
should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
communicating with me.

I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
both AHJs and manufacturers.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342

>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

Dave,

I took a quick look at the Discover AES battery specifications you
linked to and didn't find an entry for how much power the BMS uses
when the battery is turned ON, but doing nothing?  In my experience
the Fortress eFlex BMS uses on the order of 12-15 W, and it would be
interesting to know how the AES compares.  The absence of a BMS is a
lead acid advantage for some remote applications.

Thanks,

Kirk Bailey
www.abundantsolar.com

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:12 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
> Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system 
> in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive 
> batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If 
> you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, 
> Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.
>
> The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
> because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a 
> home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed 
> loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.
>
> https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount
>
>
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>   https://offgridsolar1.com/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer 
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We 
> had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and 
> lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or 
> replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to 
> remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe 
> donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed 
> loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, 
> despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but 
> we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, 
> there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for 
> offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro 
> and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
> and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time 
> for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over 
> the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the 
> switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for 
> our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from 
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last 
> June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real 
> serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston 
> this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for 
> all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout 
> as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy 
> (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the 
> Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on 
> the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the 
> Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy 
> (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters 
> installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their 
> functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, 
> what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not 
> unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but 
> there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, 
> and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI 
> batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching 
> firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 
> components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, 
> Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. 
> If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different 
> brand without having to replace 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount 
system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name 
on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh 
with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop 
into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.


The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is 
a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first 
closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away 
from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar 
suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY 
market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. 
However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see 
that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the 
Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. 
I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 
1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't 
have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is 
quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, 
but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or 
the EG4).


My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 
inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current 
take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality 
of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the 
EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the 
Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things 
about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and 
seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly 
eye-catching.


I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the 
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues 
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated 
units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is 
so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option 
to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the 
other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut 
down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting 
process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we 
haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support.


I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so 
I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight.


Thanks,

Howie Michaelson

Sun Catcher ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don’t have a
BMS or replacement battery. It’s been a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS’s and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We’ve only had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it’s a Sol-Ark issue, but we’ve reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
to be, we’d install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
> (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
> at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
> with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
> certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
> of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
> tech support.
>
> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
> hoping to gain some experienced insight.
>
> Thanks,
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
>
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Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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[RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).

My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm
not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery,
but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI
batteries are certainly eye-catching.

I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
tech support.

I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
hoping to gain some experienced insight.

Thanks,
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
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[RE-wrenches] EG4 18kPV Correction - does have frequency shift AC Coupling

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Folks,

Just wanted to make a correction on the EG418kPV of a statement made 
during the AC Coupling thread.


The EG4 18kPV does have frequency shift based AC Coupling.  The 
confusion comes from the fact that like Sol-Ark there is a SOC set-point 
override feature for AC Coupling but the video William referred to 
seemed to imply it is the only control. It is not and EG4 is fixing this 
video.


William Miller wrote:

EG4: I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the 
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output. The 
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a 
programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.


Hope that helps,

Jeff
Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com 



William Miller via RE-wrenches 
October 28, 2023 at 10:49 PM

Jay:

I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to 
operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the 
battery inverter AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see 
correct voltage and frequency before it can start up.  How else could 
this work?


I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look 
to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just 
reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra 
output.  All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  
Here is more information from each of the manufacturers:


Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen 
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “/A full AC 
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and 
monitoring is limited.”/


EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an 
EG4 inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just 
like the Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an 
output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC 
reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift 
function.  The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do 
provide a video 
.


Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input 
for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual/:  It 
is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. 
/That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an 
input.


So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery 
inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to 
be an output.  In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage 
control of AC-coupled battery charging.


I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the 
battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to 
shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  
This is a work-around, not a design.  In each and every one of these 
systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery 
charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery 
charging like a DC charge controller can.


When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain 
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this 
article. 


There are limited advantages to AC coupling:

·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This is 
no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.


·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has 
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most 
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm 
provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this.


In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest 
inverters is a crude affair.  I am not a fan.


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com ]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com ; 
RE-wrenches

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

I’m going to both agree and disagree

Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is 
correct.


Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring 
ac coupling into the inverter directly.


Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.

And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are 
not designed for ac coupling.


Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any 
internal control and required external relay control to prevent 
overcharge.


Newer versions of 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi All

Yes I’ve been working with EG4s for some time now. I installed 30 (154KWH) on 4 
Sunny Island’s in Feb and that system has been working flawlessly. I’ve also 
done a 4 (20.5KWWH) battery system and a 6 battery (30.7 kWH) on single 
SOl-ARKs.  And I’ve consulted in amd been monitoring some multi Solark systems. 
All work great. 

I visited the factory in Texas for a few days and helped them think about 
designing a rack with built in OCP. I’m friendly with James Showalter the CEO 
and met amd worked with the tech department. . I offered to help rewrite their 
battery manual but then couldn’t find the time though I am providing input. 

Their published recommended settings for Absorb and float are a bit too high. ( 
they just copy from the Chinese manufacturer) but on the SI system it would 
force the BMS into overvoltage cutoff every cycle. No harm is done as the bms 
protects each time but I found that setting absorb to 55.8 (with absorb time 
set to 1-3 hours depending on ratio of PV to KWH) and float to 53.8 works well. 
   I’ve found there is no reason to push LFPs past 14 v (56v) for any reason. 
And no reason to float much past 13.4 (54) LFPs are happiest between 15% and 
95% charge (hence the 80% useable).  Pushing them to 100% every time is non 
productive amd can lesson lifetime. 

Also I came on strong at first insisting like Will Prowess and many others that 
it was essential to keep battery cable lengths the same for all parallels batts 
amd racks. However bench testing and real world testing has shown otherwise 
which can translate to hundreds of dollars in saved copper.  The BMS’s 
compensate for slight resistance differences. I find that individual paralleled 
48V batteries may vary as much as 5-10% in SOC during any one point on a cycle 
but the ones showing lower at the top end of the cycle quickly make up for it 
at the lower end of the cycle. So in any one cycle every battery cycles between 
the same values even if some are pulling the weight at the higher SOCs - the 
others will then catch up due to the BMSs doing their thing. In fact we saw no 
correlation with battery cable length as differences in cell manufacture and 
perhaps temperature outweighed any effect causes by unequal cable lengths. ( 
like 3-4 feet more on 2/0 used for paralleled racks)

I’ve also discovered you can monitor 14, 28, 42 batteries if you’ld like by 
running their battery software on multiple ports connected to multiple screens 
(running the same program on two different ports of a pc)  so up to 14 batts 
per port. I then use remote viewer software to view the dedicated laptop I 
leave at each job. 

If you parallel more than one rack you should be providing OCP between racks 
and the bus bar you provide. I’ve been using Victron fused bus bar systems but 
they are expensive. Hence why I’m working with Signature Solar to provide OCP 
per rack. 

I find James amd the folks at Signature Solar to be great folks with a great 
vision amd devotion to bring the price of solar eat down while providing 
quality. 

That said I have yet to take the leap to the EG4 inverters (or any of the super 
cheap Chinese all-in-ones like MPP) I might try one in an RV but for now am 
sticking with SolArks. That said there are many companies working to bring the 
quality of the DIY all-in-ones up to speed. I’ve also installed StorzPower (Sol 
Arks with flashed ROM) and they are working on their own inverter to meet the 
need as well.  

I’ve been enjoying watching the original Hippy Tech meets Prepper tech meets 
DIY tech. Soon I think the right quality/ price point will be reached amd we’ll 
all be installing much less expensive systems. Sol Ark and SMA take note!  Bit 
it’s up to us installers to make sure that quality is up to snuff. I ding the 
sever rack batteries (EG4, StorzPower,SOK,Jakiper, etc to be quality and 
reliable. They all use the same prismatic cells. Fortress, SimpliPhi, Discover 
take note!  Less than $300/KWH is here on batts. Less than .50/watt or even 
lower on high surge -off grid capable all-in-one inverters is fast on its 
heels! 

Best,

Jeff Clearwater
CA license “#852360
C-46, C-10
Village Power Design
413-559-9763





Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2022, at 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with EG4 products? I am doing an off-grid 
> consultation for someone who plans on getting EG4 inverter and lithium 
> batteries. The equipment seems so cheap, yet appears to be somewhat legit. 
> They do at least have UL1741 listing. But their 6500w inverter/charger also 
> takes PV power directly and goes for $1250. And their 48V 100AH battery is 
> only $1500. I am curious if anyone has used this stuff and if it is actually 
> legit.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> -- 
>   
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com
> c: (607) 288-2898
> 

[RE-wrenches] EG4

[Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches]

My first question is: are you willing to get blamed for his selection of the 
equipment ?

Beware being the first kid on the block with the shiny new toy. Just saying how 
many times have we all been guinea pigged?

The equipment looks like it is rack mounted audio gear. Not a bad thing 
possibly. 6500 watts at 120v?

 

Dana Orzel -  E - d...@solarwork.com -  C - 208.721.7003 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Tedeyan via RE-wrenches
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 1:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Dave Tedeyan 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4

 

Hi all, 

 

Does anyone have any experience with EG4 products? I am doing an off-grid 
consultation for someone who plans on getting EG4 inverter and lithium 
batteries. The equipment seems so cheap, yet appears to be somewhat legit. They 
do at least have UL1741 listing. But their 6500w inverter/charger also takes PV 
power directly and goes for $1250. And their 48V 100AH battery is only $1500. I 
am curious if anyone has used this stuff and if it is actually legit.

 

Cheers,

Dave


 

-- 


 <https://www.sungineersolar.com/> 


Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar


p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: <http://www.sungineersolar.com/>  www.sungineersolar.com
c: (607) 288-2898



 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4

[Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches]

Check out YouTube videos by Will Prowse. He’s used them and taken them apart. 
It would be better if any wrenches have used them though 

Brad

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2022, at 12:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with EG4 products? I am doing an off-grid 
> consultation for someone who plans on getting EG4 inverter and lithium 
> batteries. The equipment seems so cheap, yet appears to be somewhat legit. 
> They do at least have UL1741 listing. But their 6500w inverter/charger also 
> takes PV power directly and goes for $1250. And their 48V 100AH battery is 
> only $1500. I am curious if anyone has used this stuff and if it is actually 
> legit.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> -- 
>   
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com
> c: (607) 288-2898
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] EG4

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience with EG4 products? I am doing an off-grid
consultation for someone who plans on getting EG4 inverter and lithium
batteries. The equipment seems so cheap, yet appears to be somewhat legit.
They do at least have UL1741 listing. But their 6500w inverter/charger also
takes PV power directly and goes for $1250. And their 48V 100AH battery is
only $1500. I am curious if anyone has used this stuff and if it is
actually legit.

Cheers,
Dave

-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 288-2898
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