Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures
AndrewCorrect, its is all about time, temp cycles will all effect modules, arial IR testing generally will not show new fractures.JerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Andrew Truitt Date: 11/18/18 8:20 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures Jerry - Thanks for the input! No snail trails or burn marks at his point as the system has yet to be commissioned. There will be an aerial IR inspection once we're operating and if anything shows up it'll be addressed for sure, but my understanding of microfractures is that the effects often don't show up for years (save for what can be seen with EL testing). Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.venturesd: 202.486.7507NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future.On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:27 PM Jerry Shafer wrote:Andrew, WrenchesWhile in Hawaii, l had modules that had fractures, some showed up in low performance, some did not and l don't recall there being a wobble on the high side. I would suggest inspecting what the modules look in question. Most of the time the cracks are visable and may look like worm tracks, they will be across the modules. Also look for what appears to be cigarette burns, this is trace arcing or at least overheating of the trace and they can appear at the interconnecting trace or main traces mostly at the change in direction of the trace. I have also had bad bypass diode connections have issues effecting performance curves.JerryNABCEP InspectorNABCEP InstallerOn Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 12:03 PM Andrew Truitt http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures
Jerry - Thanks for the input! No snail trails or burn marks at his point as the system has yet to be commissioned. There will be an aerial IR inspection once we're operating and if anything shows up it'll be addressed for sure, but my understanding of microfractures is that the effects often don't show up for years (save for what can be seen with EL testing). *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:27 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Andrew, Wrenches > While in Hawaii, l had modules that had fractures, some showed up in low > performance, some did not and l don't recall there being a wobble on the > high side. I would suggest inspecting what the modules look in question. > Most of the time the cracks are visable and may look like worm tracks, they > will be across the modules. Also look for what appears to be cigarette > burns, this is trace arcing or at least overheating of the trace and they > can appear at the interconnecting trace or main traces mostly at the change > in direction of the trace. I have also had bad bypass diode connections > have issues effecting performance curves. > Jerry > NABCEP Inspector > NABCEP Installer > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 12:03 PM Andrew Truitt >> >> >> Wrenches - Does anyone have experience getting electroluminescence (EL) >> test results from module manufacturers? I just shot some module IV curves >> as part of an acceptance test and they all show some irregularities on the >> vertical slope that Solmetric says are indicative of microfractures: >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> >> It seems the optimal course of action here is to perform EL testing on a >> random sample of mods in the field and compare with images from the factory >> to hone in on the root cause. However field EL testing is not cheap and >> even if we do determine that the damage occured after modules left the >> factory, how could it be proven if its the shipper or the EPC at fault? I >> foresee everyone pushing back and invoking the performance warranty as the >> backstop if issues pop up in the future (assuming nothing shows up during >> performance testing next month), but the last thing we want deal with is a >> massive (or worse, piecemeal) warranty claim in 5 years. Or the array may >> mildly underperform year over year, not enough to trigger warranties but >> still costing thousands in lost revenue. The system is a 200kW ground >> mount in CO using tier 1 (top 5) Chinese modules. Anyone dealt with this >> type of situation before? >> >> >> >> *Regards, * >> >> >> *Andrew Truitt* >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >> occur in the future. >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures
Andrew, Wrenches While in Hawaii, l had modules that had fractures, some showed up in low performance, some did not and l don't recall there being a wobble on the high side. I would suggest inspecting what the modules look in question. Most of the time the cracks are visable and may look like worm tracks, they will be across the modules. Also look for what appears to be cigarette burns, this is trace arcing or at least overheating of the trace and they can appear at the interconnecting trace or main traces mostly at the change in direction of the trace. I have also had bad bypass diode connections have issues effecting performance curves. Jerry NABCEP Inspector NABCEP Installer On Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 12:03 PM Andrew Truitt > > Wrenches - Does anyone have experience getting electroluminescence (EL) > test results from module manufacturers? I just shot some module IV curves > as part of an acceptance test and they all show some irregularities on the > vertical slope that Solmetric says are indicative of microfractures: > > [image: image.png] > > > It seems the optimal course of action here is to perform EL testing on a > random sample of mods in the field and compare with images from the factory > to hone in on the root cause. However field EL testing is not cheap and > even if we do determine that the damage occured after modules left the > factory, how could it be proven if its the shipper or the EPC at fault? I > foresee everyone pushing back and invoking the performance warranty as the > backstop if issues pop up in the future (assuming nothing shows up during > performance testing next month), but the last thing we want deal with is a > massive (or worse, piecemeal) warranty claim in 5 years. Or the array may > mildly underperform year over year, not enough to trigger warranties but > still costing thousands in lost revenue. The system is a 200kW ground > mount in CO using tier 1 (top 5) Chinese modules. Anyone dealt with this > type of situation before? > > > > *Regards, * > > > *Andrew Truitt* > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Microfractures
Wrenches - Does anyone have experience getting electroluminescence (EL) test results from module manufacturers? I just shot some module IV curves as part of an acceptance test and they all show some irregularities on the vertical slope that Solmetric says are indicative of microfractures: [image: image.png] It seems the optimal course of action here is to perform EL testing on a random sample of mods in the field and compare with images from the factory to hone in on the root cause. However field EL testing is not cheap and even if we do determine that the damage occured after modules left the factory, how could it be proven if its the shipper or the EPC at fault? I foresee everyone pushing back and invoking the performance warranty as the backstop if issues pop up in the future (assuming nothing shows up during performance testing next month), but the last thing we want deal with is a massive (or worse, piecemeal) warranty claim in 5 years. Or the array may mildly underperform year over year, not enough to trigger warranties but still costing thousands in lost revenue. The system is a 200kW ground mount in CO using tier 1 (top 5) Chinese modules. Anyone dealt with this type of situation before? *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules
Does this suggest that it is better to buy monocrystalline cell modules instead of poly; and that those modules that flash test with the highest output for a given production run have the best printed connections and therefore the higher probability of long term life and performance? Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 10:21 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline. However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what they look like). Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this a valid concern for the industry? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules
Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline. However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what they look like). Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this a valid concern for the industry? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules
Hi Chris, Do you mean the AHJ? jay On Oct 4, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline. However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what they look like). Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this a valid concern for the industry? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules
No, this is a third party quality assurance inspector for a rate payer funded program. The issue is most likely proper use of ratepayer funds towards these projects. I would think that the AHJ wouldn't be concerned unless there was a safety issue My question is more along the lines of: is this a real issue, and if so, how does one see the defect? On 10/4/2014 12:21 PM, jay peltz wrote: Hi Chris, Do you mean the AHJ? jay On Oct 4, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline. However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what they look like). Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this a valid concern for the industry? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules
Christopher There are some level of micro fractures that are always present in cells and not visible to the naked eye. Some of these will produce visible fractures over time from loading and flexing of the module from weather and temperature changes. The micro fractures can be an issue with performance, but may not show up until later, they are not necessarily an issue with safety. If the encapsulation is intact and the there is not a specific internal fault caused by the separation the only issue would be loss of conducting surface between the broken piece and the internal string wiring resulting in a loss of performance. Bottom line as long as there is not a fault, your AHJ does not have much to say about performance, the NEC says nothing about performance, only if the installation is safe. All modules are flash tested and sorted for performance and checked for faults ( insulation resistance tested at a voltage significantly higher than the operational rating, 2x max voltage + 1000V). This is required before a module manufacturer can place a UL sticker on it. IMHO as long as the damage and is not causing leakage current during an insulation resistance test at the factory the AHJ really cannot say anything about it legally, he is not an inspector for UL and really only needs to be able to read the UL sticker and certify it is being used according to the listing. That being said some module manufacturers do add an additional Electroluminescence test that does detect micro cracks by placing a small reverse current through the module that causes the active material to act as a Light Emitting Diode in the near infrared spectrum that it is possible to detect with a special camera calibrated for that light spectrum. Usually done in a lab, although there are expensive field units available now. These test will show micro-cracks, bad print screening and bad spots on the cells from the doping process. I have done tests were we purposely damage cells in a module and we have been able to detect micro cracks that did not necessarily result in a reduced flash test at the factory. Over time I assume that will not be the case and reduced output may be the. So IMHO your AHJ does not have the equipment nor does he have the expertise to perform these tests, nor does the NEC or UL1703 require it! Good Luck with the inspector, but I think he is way out of his league on this one, until it becomes a safety issue, even a visible crack in a cell is not an issue of his concern. Bill On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Christopher Warfel cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote: Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline. However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what they look like). Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this a valid concern for the industry? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 suneng...@gmail.com bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules
Hi Chris, There are a number of test methods, but the best two are. Electroluminescence imagining ELI thermal imaging IR From what I read at Photon, the ELI is the best for micro cracks before they really happen. After they are visible, thermal imaging can be helpful. As to it being a real issue, I believe so. The cause has not been confirmed, but contributing factors are: cell thickness manufacturing handling shipping/packing field handling. For example I've seen IR photos that show a hand print damage in the middle of module. Or damage that sure looks like it would have been from a shoulder pressing on a cell area ( carrying it like a sheet of plywood). If you are looking for someone who can do these field tests, contact me off site, jay peltz power On Oct 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: No, this is a third party quality assurance inspector for a rate payer funded program. The issue is most likely proper use of ratepayer funds towards these projects. I would think that the AHJ wouldn't be concerned unless there was a safety issue My question is more along the lines of: is this a real issue, and if so, how does one see the defect? On 10/4/2014 12:21 PM, jay peltz wrote: Hi Chris, Do you mean the AHJ? jay On Oct 4, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline. However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what they look like). Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this a valid concern for the industry? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
