Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Dave Click]

Thanks to Nick for catching a misstatement in my email, corrected below 
in *bold*. I was trying to make a general statement out of his specific 
situation.


On 2014/6/26, 10:20, Dave Click wrote:
NEC says 10' from the array, defined as "A mechanically integrated 
assembly of modules or panels with a support structure and foundation, 
tracker, and other components, as required, to form a direct-current 
power-producing unit. 70HB14_CH00_FM_pi_xii.pdf " I take this to mean 
that the "array" definition includes support structure, so you could 
go 10' from the bottom of the pole?


But that doesn't matter, as rapid shutdown requirements only apply to 
PV systems *[conductors]* "on or in" buildings; it only applies to a 
ground-mounted system if you bring the dc all the way into *or 
onto***a building (*if you are >10' from the array or >5' within the 
structure*). So, Rapid Shutdown doesn't apply at all to your scenario 
where only the ac wiring from a pole mount enters the building.


DKC


On 2014/6/25, 12:00, Jesse Dahl wrote:

Re-reading this rapid shutdown convo.

 Does 10' from the array mean from the modules or the "mount"? What 
if the array is on a pole, the pole is 15' tall and the inverter is 
mounted at the base of the pole?  Since the array (modules) is 15' 
from the inverter is rapid shutdown required?


Again, since the title of 690.12 is "On Buildings" is it required for 
pole mounts where only AC enters the building?  Thoughts?


Thanks!


Jesse


On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Dan Fink > wrote:


Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;

I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly
confusing to me.

The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV
Systems on Buildings"

The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits*
installed on or in buildings shall."

690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between
modules and from modules to the common connection point(s) of the
DC system"

and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between
the PV source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization
equipment."

"PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2,
other than that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"
 specifically includes both PV output and source circuits.

To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings"
is that "system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop
arrays. But "PV system circuits installed on or in buildings
shall." is pretty clear. I interpret it to mean anything DC
and PV stuck to the side of building like conduit, etc, or
running insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount arrays
too if they terminate outside or inside the building.

What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is
the old "power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of
system, inverter etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV
array and you're fine.

Any thoughts?


Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 



On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
 mailto:b...@midnitesolar.com>> wrote:


Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading
the NEC, it looks like if the wires
do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the
crow flies), the the rapid disconnect
does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF
the PV is mounted on that building.

boB




On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking
at the rapid shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a
building refer to only situations where the array is on a
building; or does it include DC conductors as well. For
example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array
run up the side of a building before punching in to the
inverter, does this require rapid shutdown?  Is this PV
system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249 
970-596-3744 
www.reosolar.com 
reoso...@gmail.com 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Dave Click]

NEC says 10' from the array, defined as "A mechanically integrated 
assembly of modules or panels with a support structure and foundation, 
tracker, and other components, as required, to form a direct-current 
power-producing unit. 70HB14_CH00_FM_pi_xii.pdf " I take this to mean 
that the "array" definition includes support structure, so you could go 
10' from the bottom of the pole?


But that doesn't matter, as rapid shutdown requirements only apply to PV 
systems "on or in" buildings; it only applies to a ground-mounted system 
if you bring the dc all the way into a building (for at least a 5' run 
within the structure). So, Rapid Shutdown doesn't apply at all to your 
scenario where only the ac wiring from a pole mount enters the building.


DKC


On 2014/6/25, 12:00, Jesse Dahl wrote:

Re-reading this rapid shutdown convo.

 Does 10' from the array mean from the modules or the "mount"? What if 
the array is on a pole, the pole is 15' tall and the inverter is 
mounted at the base of the pole?  Since the array (modules) is 15' 
from the inverter is rapid shutdown required?


Again, since the title of 690.12 is "On Buildings" is it required for 
pole mounts where only AC enters the building?  Thoughts?


Thanks!


Jesse


On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Dan Fink > wrote:


Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;

I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly confusing
to me.

The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV
Systems on Buildings"

The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits*
installed on or in buildings shall."

690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between
modules and from modules to the common connection point(s) of the
DC system"

and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between
the PV source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization
equipment."

"PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2,
other than that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"
 specifically includes both PV output and source circuits.

To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings" is
that "system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop arrays.
But "PV system circuits installed on or in buildings shall."
is pretty clear. I interpret it to mean anything DC and PV stuck
to the side of building like conduit, etc, or running
insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount arrays too if
they terminate outside or inside the building.

What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is
the old "power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of
system, inverter etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV
array and you're fine.

Any thoughts?


Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 



On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
 mailto:b...@midnitesolar.com>> wrote:


Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading
the NEC, it looks like if the wires
do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the
crow flies), the the rapid disconnect
does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the
PV is mounted on that building.

boB




On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking
at the rapid shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a
building refer to only situations where the array is on a
building; or does it include DC conductors as well. For
example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array
run up the side of a building before punching in to the
inverter, does this require rapid shutdown?  Is this PV
system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249 
970-596-3744 
www.reosolar.com 
reoso...@gmail.com 



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Check out participant b

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Jesse Dahl]

Re-reading this rapid shutdown convo.

 Does 10' from the array mean from the modules or the "mount"? What if the
array is on a pole, the pole is 15' tall and the inverter is mounted at the
base of the pole?  Since the array (modules) is 15' from the inverter is
rapid shutdown required?

Again, since the title of 690.12 is "On Buildings" is it required for pole
mounts where only AC enters the building?  Thoughts?

Thanks!


Jesse


On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;
>
> I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly confusing to me.
>
> The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on
> Buildings"
>
> The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits* installed on
> or in buildings shall."
>
> 690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between modules
> and from modules to the common connection point(s) of the DC system"
>
> and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between the PV
> source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization equipment."
>
> "PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2, other than
> that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"  specifically includes
> both PV output and source circuits.
>
> To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings" is that
> "system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop arrays. But "PV system
> circuits installed on or in buildings shall." is pretty clear. I
> interpret it to mean anything DC and PV stuck to the side of building like
> conduit, etc, or running insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount
> arrays too if they terminate outside or inside the building.
>
> What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is the old
> "power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of system, inverter
> etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV array and you're fine.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com <
> b...@midnitesolar.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading the NEC, it
>> looks like if the wires
>> do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the crow
>> flies), the the rapid disconnect
>> does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the PV is
>> mounted on that building.
>>
>> boB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:
>>
>>> The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid
>>> shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations
>>> where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well.
>>> For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side
>>> of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid
>>> shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> Aaron Mandelkorn
>>> Owner/Solar Specialist
>>> Renewable Energy Outfitters
>>> 719-221-5249
>>> 970-596-3744
>>> www.reosolar.com
>>> reoso...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Bill Brooks]

Martin,



I agree that this would meet the requirement.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Martin Herzfeld
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 10:49 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts




In other words, for ground-mounts, in accordance with 2014 NEC 690.12(1), would 
it be okay to run the DC conductors not inside, but on the side of the building 
"5" feet directly to the inverter?

Martin Herzfeld
California Solar Contractors License  #833782
Trenching Contractor, Pole Installation and Maintenance, Instrumentation

UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer

Telephone & Text: 510-243-0190

Martin Herzfeld is an Accredited Business of the BBB since 2008.

Aaron,

An exterior utility service panel with an underground service lateral is not
considered in or on the building.

Keep the dc conductors off of the building and you will be fine with a
ground-mounted PV system. Don't bring them inside the building, and don't
run them along the exterior of the building.

The whole requirement is to deenergize conductors that a firefighter might
come in contact with while fighting a fire. The most important conductors
are those inside the building. A PV array on top of a buiding is also
required to deenergize the conductors within 10 feet of the array (PV Output
Circuit Conductors). The array is allowed to remain at full voltage.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> ] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid
shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations
where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well.
For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side
of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid
shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com <http://www.reosolar.com>
reoso...@gmail.com <mailto:reoso...@gmail.com>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Martin Herzfeld]

In other words, for ground-mounts, in accordance with 2014 NEC 690.12(1),
would it be okay to run the DC conductors not inside, but on the side of
the building "5" feet directly to the inverter?

Martin Herzfeld
California Solar Contractors License  #833782
Trenching Contractor, Pole Installation and Maintenance, Instrumentation

UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer

Telephone & Text: 510-243-0190

Martin Herzfeld is an Accredited Business of the BBB since 2008.

Aaron,

An exterior utility service panel with an underground service lateral is not
considered in or on the building.

Keep the dc conductors off of the building and you will be fine with a
ground-mounted PV system. Don't bring them inside the building, and don't
run them along the exterior of the building.

The whole requirement is to deenergize conductors that a firefighter might
come in contact with while fighting a fire. The most important conductors
are those inside the building. A PV array on top of a buiding is also
required to deenergize the conductors within 10 feet of the array (PV Output
Circuit Conductors). The array is allowed to remain at full voltage.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid
shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations
where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well.
For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side
of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid
shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com
reoso...@gmail.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Dan Fink]

Thanks Brian -- I think that covers both DC and AC sides then.

But the Mike Holt textbook I received taking Ryan Mayfield's (excellent)
class at NABCEP Denver last month specifically says "dc circuits" all
throughout the 690.12 analysis.my copy of NEC2014 does not specify DC
at all.

Did I miss a correction, errata or revision of either the Mike Holt book or
the NEC2014?

Baffled;

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:

> The definition for "PV system" moved to Article 100 in 2014. I think it's
> pretty clear that the PV system includes the inverter, if present, and the
> inverter output circuits.
>
> Brian
>
> On Apr 19, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;
>
> I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly confusing to me.
>
> The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on
> Buildings"
>
> The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits* installed on
> or in buildings shall."
>
> 690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between modules
> and from modules to the common connection point(s) of the DC system"
>
> and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between the PV
> source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization equipment."
>
> "PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2, other than
> that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"  specifically includes
> both PV output and source circuits.
>
> To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings" is that
> "system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop arrays. But "PV system
> circuits installed on or in buildings shall." is pretty clear. I
> interpret it to mean anything DC and PV stuck to the side of building like
> conduit, etc, or running insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount
> arrays too if they terminate outside or inside the building.
>
> What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is the old
> "power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of system, inverter
> etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV array and you're fine.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com <
> b...@midnitesolar.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading the NEC, it
>> looks like if the wires
>> do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the crow
>> flies), the the rapid disconnect
>> does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the PV is
>> mounted on that building.
>>
>> boB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:
>>
>>> The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid
>>> shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations
>>> where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well.
>>> For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side
>>> of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid
>>> shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> Aaron Mandelkorn
>>> Owner/Solar Specialist
>>> Renewable Energy Outfitters
>>> 719-221-5249
>>> 970-596-3744
>>> www.reosolar.com
>>> reoso...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Aaron Mandelkorn]

Dan. Great thoughts on the subject. I agree with the power shed idea but this 
isn't feasible most of the time for me. I have been thinking about AC coupling 
for off grid systems and the idea doesn't excite me. Thanks for your input. 

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com
reoso...@gmail.com


> On Apr 19, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;
> 
> I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly confusing to me.
> 
> The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on 
> Buildings"
> 
> The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits* installed on or 
> in buildings shall."
> 
> 690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between modules and 
> from modules to the common connection point(s) of the DC system" 
> 
> and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between the PV 
> source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization equipment."
> 
> "PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2, other than 
> that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"  specifically includes 
> both PV output and source circuits.
> 
> To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings" is that 
> "system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop arrays. But "PV system 
> circuits installed on or in buildings shall." is pretty clear. I 
> interpret it to mean anything DC and PV stuck to the side of building like 
> conduit, etc, or running insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount 
> arrays too if they terminate outside or inside the building.
> 
> What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is the old 
> "power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of system, inverter 
> etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV array and you're fine.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading the NEC, it 
>> looks like if the wires
>> do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the crow flies), 
>> the the rapid disconnect
>> does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the PV is mounted 
>> on that building.
>> 
>> boB
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:
>>> The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid 
>>> shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations 
>>> where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well. 
>>> For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side 
>>> of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid 
>>> shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?
>>> 
>>> Aaron
>>> 
>>> Aaron Mandelkorn
>>> Owner/Solar Specialist
>>> Renewable Energy Outfitters
>>> 719-221-5249
>>> 970-596-3744
>>> www.reosolar.com
>>> reoso...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Brian Mehalic]

The definition for "PV system" moved to Article 100 in 2014. I think it's 
pretty clear that the PV system includes the inverter, if present, and the 
inverter output circuits. 

Brian

> On Apr 19, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;
> 
> I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly confusing to me.
> 
> The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on 
> Buildings"
> 
> The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits* installed on or 
> in buildings shall."
> 
> 690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between modules and 
> from modules to the common connection point(s) of the DC system" 
> 
> and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between the PV 
> source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization equipment."
> 
> "PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2, other than 
> that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"  specifically includes 
> both PV output and source circuits.
> 
> To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings" is that 
> "system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop arrays. But "PV system 
> circuits installed on or in buildings shall." is pretty clear. I 
> interpret it to mean anything DC and PV stuck to the side of building like 
> conduit, etc, or running insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount 
> arrays too if they terminate outside or inside the building.
> 
> What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is the old 
> "power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of system, inverter 
> etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV array and you're fine.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading the NEC, it 
>> looks like if the wires
>> do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the crow flies), 
>> the the rapid disconnect
>> does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the PV is mounted 
>> on that building.
>> 
>> boB
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:
>>> The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid 
>>> shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations 
>>> where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well. 
>>> For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side 
>>> of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid 
>>> shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?
>>> 
>>> Aaron
>>> 
>>> Aaron Mandelkorn
>>> Owner/Solar Specialist
>>> Renewable Energy Outfitters
>>> 719-221-5249
>>> 970-596-3744
>>> www.reosolar.com
>>> reoso...@gmail.com
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Dan Fink]

Hi Aaron, boB, Wrenches;

I think Aaron brings up a good point, and it's certainly confusing to me.

The boldface type heading of 690.12 is "Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on
Buildings"

The body of the 690.12 text begins with "PV system *circuits* installed on
or in buildings shall."

690.2 defines "Photovoltaic source circuit" as "Circuits between modules
and from modules to the common connection point(s) of the DC system"

and "Photovoltaic output circuit" as "Circuit conductors between the PV
source circuit(s) and the inverter or DC utilization equipment."

"PV system" from the heading of 690.12 is not defined in 690.2, other than
that the definition of "Photovoltaic system voltage"  specifically includes
both PV output and source circuits.

To me the confusing part of 690.12 is "PV Systems on Buildings" is that
"system" is not defined, and tends to imply rooftop arrays. But "PV system
circuits installed on or in buildings shall." is pretty clear. I
interpret it to mean anything DC and PV stuck to the side of building like
conduit, etc, or running insidewhich means it applies to ground-mount
arrays too if they terminate outside or inside the building.

What I'm seeing as the easy work-around for us off-grid folk is the old
"power shed" idea containing battery bank, balance of system, inverter
etcjust build it within 10 feet of the PV array and you're fine.

Any thoughts?


Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
wrote:

>
> Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading the NEC, it
> looks like if the wires
> do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the crow flies),
> the the rapid disconnect
> does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the PV is
> mounted on that building.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
> On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:
>
>> The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid
>> shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations
>> where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well.
>> For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side
>> of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid
>> shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>> Aaron Mandelkorn
>> Owner/Solar Specialist
>> Renewable Energy Outfitters
>> 719-221-5249
>> 970-596-3744
>> www.reosolar.com
>> reoso...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Bill Brooks]

Aaron,

An exterior utility service panel with an underground service lateral is not
considered in or on the building. 

Keep the dc conductors off of the building and you will be fine with a
ground-mounted PV system. Don't bring them inside the building, and don't
run them along the exterior of the building. 

The whole requirement is to deenergize conductors that a firefighter might
come in contact with while fighting a fire. The most important conductors
are those inside the building. A PV array on top of a buiding is also
required to deenergize the conductors within 10 feet of the array (PV Output
Circuit Conductors). The array is allowed to remain at full voltage.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid
shutdown language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations
where the array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well.
For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side
of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid
shutdown?  Is this PV system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com
reoso...@gmail.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Bill Brooks should probably respond to this also, but reading the NEC, 
it looks like if the wires
do not go inside the building to run more than 5 feet (as the crow 
flies), the the rapid disconnect
does not apply.OR, less than 10 feet from the array IF the PV is 
mounted on that building.


boB



On 4/18/2014 1:34 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid shutdown language, does PV 
systems "on" a building refer to only situations where the array is on a building; or 
does it include DC conductors as well. For example, if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array 
run up the side of a building before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid shutdown? 
 Is this PV system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com
reoso...@gmail.com




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[RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown for pole mounts

[Aaron Mandelkorn]

The rapid shutdown language is so confusing. When looking at the rapid shutdown 
language, does PV systems "on" a building refer to only situations where the 
array is on a building; or does it include DC conductors as well. For example, 
if the DC conductors from a pole mounted array run up the side of a building 
before punching in to the inverter, does this require rapid shutdown?  Is this 
PV system considered "on" a building?

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com
reoso...@gmail.com

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