Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
The lawyers should love this creative new installation method! Legacy Solar 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 sol...@legacysolar.com www.legacysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:12 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their “complete offgrid system” from that same “cheapestsolar” outfit Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225 watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt 6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries... It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to pay for the phone call. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad the cheapestsolar.com folks don't warn their customers about these kinds of situations. Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct. Todd On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com said: I installed a system provides by another, it failed, because of defective equipment, I am being sued to replace the defective equipment DT From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 11:25:34 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, I just hope that the solar installers' industry doesn't have to start installing roofs, too !! boB Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson mailto:joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson mailto:joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Well, I thought we were talking about getting into bed with roofers. If we are talking about DIYers, here is my two cents worth. Just so boB and Warren dont appear to be a couple of voices in the wild(erness). I personally do not know of a single PV integrator who would work with a DIYer. The reasons for walking away from this kind of business are so numerous, I will list only the first fourteen: (1) A DIYer looking for some help in installing a PV system, might be looking to avoid pulling a permit, or (2) Expects to pull a permit as an owner-builder, or (3) Wants you to pull the permit (4) Doesnt think we need to perform a site survey, because he got on the roof a couple of weeks ago and everything will fit and there was no shading. (5) Wants you to fill out the rebate paperwork (and not pay for the effort) (6) Doesnt want to pay for engineering either (what do you mean we cant use the 500 ft of #14 THHN wire I bought?) (7) Or for that matter permit documentation (you want $250 to draw up a permit package! Thats outrageous!) (8) Wants the installer to carry the warranty for the stuff his brother bought on the internet from PVPartsForSale (9) Isnt 100% sure exactly what came in the kit (10) Wants the installer to bid on the project based on a PowerPoint layout he did for the modules (What do you mean I have to know the rafter spacing and orientation? I assumed you would cut those black plastic pipes vents flush with the roof. Dont worry Ill move the satellite dish!) (11) Wants to do a little of the work himself on the weekends (Like running some conduit through the attic). (12) Wants the installer to vouch for the fact that the PV modules were purchased new even though there is a fine layer of dirt everywhere on the panels even in the rain channels, and some of the panels have wire clips installed on the backside. (13) Doesnt know anything about his service panel, or whether or not he had a code compliant grounding system, and is not sure what kind of roof he has (I think its tile) or what condition its in (14) And he has done a little unpermitted electrical work in the past, but that shouldnt be a problem should it? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their complete offgrid system from that same cheapestsolar outfit Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225 watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt 6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries... It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to pay for the phone call. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad the cheapestsolar.com folks don't warn their customers about these kinds of situations. Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct. Todd On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com said: I installed a system provides by another, it failed, because of defective equipment, I am being sued to replace the defective equipment DT From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 11:25:34 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head there with that list - been there, done that - especially #9. Every time I get one of those calls I have to have them read off the entire list. 90% of the time I see weird things, and know immediately they did not buy it from us. So then my next question to them is did you buy this from us - followed by a long moment of silence before they admit that the company they bought it from is clueless. I think one of the best calls I got recently was someone wondering if the wires getting hot was a problem. I am retiring this year, been in this almost 30 years now, and seeing the same thing come around yet again is getting old. -Original Message- From: Peter Parrish Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:33 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Well, I thought we were talking about getting into bed with roofers. If we are talking about DIYers, here is my two cents worth. Just so boB and Warren don’t appear to be a couple of voices in the wild(erness). I personally do not know of a single PV integrator who would work with a DIYer. The reasons for walking away from this kind of business are so numerous, I will list only the first fourteen: (1) A DIYer looking for some help in installing a PV system, might be looking to avoid pulling a permit, or (2) Expects to pull a permit as an owner-builder, or (3) Wants you to pull the permit (4) Doesn’t think we need to perform a site survey, because he got on the roof a couple of weeks ago and everything will fit and there was no shading. (5) Wants you to fill out the rebate paperwork (and not pay for the effort) (6) Doesn’t want to pay for engineering either (what do you mean we can’t use the 500 ft of #14 THHN wire I bought?) (7) Or for that matter permit documentation (you want $250 to draw up a permit package! That’s outrageous!) (8) Wants the installer to carry the warranty for the stuff his brother bought on the internet from PVPartsForSale (9) Isn’t 100% sure exactly what came in the “kit” (10) Wants the installer to bid on the project based on a PowerPoint layout he did for the modules (What do you mean I have to know the rafter spacing and orientation? I assumed you would cut those black plastic pipes vents flush with the roof. Don’t worry I’ll move the satellite dish!) (11) Wants to do “a little of the work himself on the weekends” (Like running some conduit through the attic). (12) Wants the installer to vouch for the fact that the PV modules were purchased “new” even though there is a fine layer of dirt everywhere on the panels even in the rain channels, and some of the panels have wire clips installed on the backside. (13) Doesn’t know anything about his service panel, or whether or not he had a code compliant grounding system, and is not sure what kind of roof he has (I think it’s “tile”) or what condition it’s in (14) And he has done a little unpermitted electrical work in the past, but that shouldn’t be a problem should it? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their “complete offgrid system” from that same “cheapestsolar” outfit Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225 watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt 6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries... It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to pay for the phone call. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi Keith: That kind of thing really helps develop a trusting relationship with the customer. Most customers seem willing to accept those charges on a TM basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 1:54:40 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the code/cord situation. 10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and offer something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about their experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!). Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Nick, et al What if you could increase the value and trust of the relationship one step further and give them an upfront price vs a TM for the extra work? They would know, before we begin the work to remedy the idea of how much it will cost and how long it would take. Another feather in your cap, to manage the relationship with the client, or prospective client. All of the 10 items listed below, can be quoted, out of your company price book, on the spot. (well, except for shopping for the refrigerator, but you could go online and look at sears.com !! with them) To me, this adds alot of common ground with your prospect and exemplifies that you're organized and been there, done that and anticipate things. Thoroughness helps get the next project and when they know what it is going to cost, before we do the work, even more comforting to them. If found in 90% + situations we can help our prospective customers with knowledge, education and what it will cost to perform the tasks needed to fulfill their needs. This also helps your business in a few tangible ways. One, you assign time to tasks. You can plan out your labor on your calendar with a reasonable margin of error for scheduling your team. Two, by providing a price on the spot, you can also have terms, like pay when completed. I equate this to going to the supermarket. You can't leave without paying. Every item is priced, before you go to the checkout counter. It should be the same with our services. TM is necessary sometimes, but it gives wiggle room for delayed payments, and now we are the bank. How much money do we end up floating each week/month year? We've kinda trained the buying public that this is ok. It's expensive to do and by offering price before service and payment at the end of the service, we greatly address our working capital and cash flow constraints. Third, if you have team members going out to do the work, aka, your journeyman and apprentices, there will be time associated to tasks and you can setup reward systems to focus the team on being productive. I call it WIIFM- what's in it for me, they all want to know what it is, so now we are upfront with them. We reward excellence and include them in the successful outcome. They are more enrolled in working with you, as this can sculpt their destiny and the choices they make. They might be less inclined to leave at 3:30 that afternoon, when if they just stay another 1.5 hours (example), they'd complete the job and be available to tackle the next job in the queue. Not only do I believe this is possible, but it is something we've done since 2003. It is effective, it works and it reshapes the culture and rituals in your organization. If you have any questions, you can contact me off list. Aloha Keith From: Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 10:12:36 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Keith: That kind of thing really helps develop a trusting relationship with the customer. Most customers seem willing to accept those charges on a TM basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 1:54:40 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi Kieth: Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center. Honestly, that should probably be included as part of the PV project. Many inspectors want to see that the panels are labelled at final inspection. I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the code/cord situation. 10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. I recommended to my
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Nick and everyone. Yes and Yes. Our contract is a 3 part NCR form. Our flat rate price book has 82 pages of tasks for our electrical services and labeling the panel is one of them. If you, or anyone is interested in getting a sample of our book, contact me off list. From: Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:57:19 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Kieth: Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center. Honestly, that should probably be included as part of the PV project. Many inspectors want to see that the panels are labelled at final inspection. I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 09:57:17 To: RE-wrenchesre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi Joel: For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell. I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.) However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my competitors. They have that right. My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the safety of PV system owners and their neighbors. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Andrew, Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject. Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work with others. Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion of your work. So what's the hassle? Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Solar Energy Solutions To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofersinstalling solar = creative,new installation methods Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From:Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re:[RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installationmethods To: RE-wrenchesre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28,2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity.Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work andcompetition, show the company owners photos of their screw-upsand your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to dotheir design and electrical installation (let them do the sales,roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
that will follow the golden rule and execute on their contracts words. If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer girl scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what they've heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can we deliver on their needs. Keith From: Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Joel: For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell. I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.) However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my competitors. They have that right. My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the safety of PV system owners and their neighbors. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Andrew, Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject. Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work with others. Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion of your work. So what's the hassle? Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Solar Energy Solutions To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofersinstalling solar = creative,new installation methods Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From:Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re:[RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installationmethods To: RE-wrenchesre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28,2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity.Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work andcompetition, show the company owners photos
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
I have seen one install in my local area, done by PetersonDean Roofing, they beat my bid by $1.50/watt, and actually did a very nice install, although they used cheaper chinese modules, and a string inverter (I was proposing enphase). But I was surprised by the clean conduit work, and flashings on the roof. Mike Nelson MD Electric Solar Gualala Ca. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Warren Lauzon war...@wind-sun.com wrote: We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. *From:* Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store http://store.solar-electric.com/ Free Solar Discussion Forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Joel,
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the
unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get
a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It
is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable,
they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole
thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems
were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
Respectfully,
Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com
Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after.
--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
#yiv337427572 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}
Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers'
bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and
your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design
and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
Joel Davidson
- Original Message -
From: Warren Lauzon
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation
methods
We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar
installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they
were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as
your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the
inverter, and not in conduit.
From: Nick Soleil
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation
methods
Hi wrenches:
Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell
solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen
to this neat story.
I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and
re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that
the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer
decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any
attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary!
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact
connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not
operating, and called us to the site.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, I just hope that the solar installers' industry doesn't have to start installing roofs, too !! boB *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* President *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. *503-238-4502* *www.solarenergyoregon.com http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ * ** *Better one's House too little one day* *than too big all the Year after.* --- On *Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson /joel.david...@sbcglobal.net/* wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - *From:* Warren Lauzon http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=war...@wind-sun.com *To:* RE-wrenches http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. *From:* Nick Soleil http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
That's a nice built-in alarm feature that locking connectors just can't provide... Nick Soleil wrote: Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Andrew Perhaps another approach could be warranted? Joint venture relationships can serve each party well, as long as their structured in a way that benefits the companies involved. Roofers are a good source of leads for us and visa versa. Its worked for me and I know of others that also see value in this across the country. The work we do, in the grid tied arena falls into two generally accepted categories: Mechanical work Electrical work Yes, some jurisdictions may say it is all electrical work and finding a demarcation point is open to discussion, but this is how its being performed across the globe now. If we like it or not, its going to continue. Here in our market there are over 150 companies (that I can count) doing PV. When I started, there where about 6. General contractors and the like. They need electrical contractors to perform the electrical portion of the work. In many ways, many of these other types of contracting companies are far better at lead generation, marketing and sales than the top electrical contractors and here is why- historically, electrical contractors have subordinated themselves to general contractors and are bidders. Even today, many of my electrical contractor competitors are ok, with just doing the installation work for the general contractors or sales and marketing companies, as they want to focus on doing the work only and don't have the temperament for running a sales force. Lastly, I believe you can offer other ancillary services to your customers, increasing the value of the relationship that have higher margins than the commoditized residential pv markets today. So, I think we all need to do like Darwin mentioned and adapt to the market conditions, so we can not just survive, but thrive in our gold rush. How about a residential PPA for your customers to differentiate? Aloha Keith From: Solar Energy Solutions solarenergysoluti...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:41:29 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Good points. Also, adding a PV system is in concert with a new roof is generally a best case scenario for the building owner. In terms of lead generation, it can also go both ways. Solar companies help generate business for the roofing contractors they recommend to customers or partner with on projects. There¹s definitely a win-win way of looking at this. (While roofing contractors are hardly the first solar installers to make rookie mistakes, failing to attach a system to a sloped roof is particularly egregious. The best ³worst PV install² story I heard involved first-generation Uni-solar shingles installed on a north facing roof without enough modules in series to actually reach the inverter start voltage. At least it didn¹t blow away or fall off the roof!) David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine On 1/28/11 11:57 AM, Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com wrote: Andrew Perhaps another approach could be warranted? Joint venture relationships can serve each party well, as long as their structured in a way that benefits the companies involved. Roofers are a good source of leads for us and visa versa. Its worked for me and I know of others that also see value in this across the country. The work we do, in the grid tied arena falls into two generally accepted categories: Mechanical work Electrical work Yes, some jurisdictions may say it is all electrical work and finding a demarcation point is open to discussion, but this is how its being performed across the globe now. If we like it or not, its going to continue. Here in our market there are over 150 companies (that I can count) doing PV. When I started, there where about 6. General contractors and the like. They need electrical contractors to perform the electrical portion of the work. In many ways, many of these other types of contracting companies are far better at lead generation, marketing and sales than the top electrical contractors and here is why- historically, electrical contractors have subordinated themselves to general contractors and are bidders. Even today, many of my electrical contractor competitors are ok, with just doing the installation work for the general contractors or sales and marketing companies, as they want to focus on doing the work only and don't have the temperament for running a sales force. Lastly, I believe you can offer other ancillary services to your customers, increasing the value of the relationship that have higher margins than the commoditized residential pv markets today. So, I think we all need to do like Darwin mentioned and adapt to the market conditions, so we can not just survive, but thrive in our gold rush. How about a residential PPA for your customers to differentiate? Aloha Keith From: Solar Energy Solutions solarenergysoluti...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:41:29 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=war...@wind-sun.com To: RE-wrenches http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches. org Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad the cheapestsolar.com folks don't warn their customers about these kinds of situations. Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct. Todd On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com said: Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: [http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=war...@wind-sun.com] Warren Lauzon To: [http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: [http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com] Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27,2011 8:11 PM To: [http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofersinstalling solar = creative,newinstallation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neatstory. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degreesloped roof. The funny thing is that theroofer didn't want to penetrate his newroof, so he and the customer decided toleave the panels sitting on the compositionroof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us tothe site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Andrew, Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject. Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work with others. Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion of your work. So what's the hassle? Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Solar Energy Solutions To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored
[RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
