Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[August Goers]

Ray,



I’m intrigued by this. We’ve always gone off NEC 300.3(B):



(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of

the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor

and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors

shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary

gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or

cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with

300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).



I interpret this to mean that we need to run neutrals along with any branch
circuits we are moving over.



Best,



August





From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Walters

Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:44 PM

To: RE-wrenches

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel



Hi Chris;



Its the same as a switch leg for a light.  The neutral stays at the light,
only the hot is run down to the switch and back.

Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there
is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP.

This is cleaner and involves much less splicing.  Fewer connections is
usually better in my book.



R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760

On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote:



I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You
should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in
another.











Chris Mason

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Solar Design Engineer

Generac Generators Industrial technician
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Mark Westbrock]

Hi Mac,

Our strictest local inspector allows us to do just what you are describing,
per NEC 312.8.  For the label described in 312.8(3), we make a custom label
that reads:

"Warning: This panel contains feed-through conductors.  OCPD for these
feed-through conductors are located ..." and then indicate physical
location of new subpanel (e.g. directly below this panel, etc.).

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark Westbrock|  VP, Branch Manager |  Employee Owner
NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP™ Certified
Technical Sales Professional
NM EE98J Licensed Electrician
510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001
cell  575.640.2432 |  office  575.524.2030
m...@positiveenergysolar.com  
www.PositiveEnergySolar.com 



>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello wrenches,
>>>
>>> We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel
>>> adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads.  I've
>>> always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we
>>> can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the
>>> critical load panel.  Is there code violation for doing a splice in the
>>> main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel?  You would be
>>> treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical
>>> loads.
>>>
>>> It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch
>>> packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do
>>> just that.
>>>
>>> Code references would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mac Lewis
>>>
>>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Matthew Sherald]

I got zapped on a neutral in a generac transfer switch that I thought was
de-energized.  Someone prior had moved hots from the transfer switch to the
main panel, but not the neutrals.  I was disassembling connections in the
transfer switch as part of a move to a battery-backup system and I could
not believe it when I got popped.  The experience drove home the importance
of terminating the phase and neutral in the same enclosure.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Chris Mason 
wrote:

> You have to splice the load cabling in the main panel, otherwise you would
> need to run new conduits and cables. There's nothing that I know of that
> prevents you splicing wires.
> I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals.
> You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral
> in another.
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
>> Hello wrenches,
>>
>> We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel
>> adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads.  I've
>> always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we
>> can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the
>> critical load panel.  Is there code violation for doing a splice in the
>> main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel?  You would be
>> treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical
>> loads.
>>
>> It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch
>> packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do
>> just that.
>>
>> Code references would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mac Lewis
>>
>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>
> www.cometsolar.com 
> 264.235.5670
> 869.662.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
>
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-- 
Matt Sherald
PIMBY Energy, LLC
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
304-704-5943

www.getpimby.blogspot.com
www.getpimby.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I’m curious. If a critical load center is powered from an alternative source 
and the main panel is not energized, won’t all neutral conductors still be 
energized from the sub panel back feeding the main? Or is that OK?

Larry



On Sep 8, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi Chris;

Its the same as a switch leg for a light.  The neutral stays at the light, only 
the hot is run down to the switch and back. 
Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no 
provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. 
This is cleaner and involves much less splicing.  Fewer connections is usually 
better in my book.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> 
> I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You 
> should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in 
> another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
> 
> 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Ray Walters]

Hi Chris;

Its the same as a switch leg for a light.  The neutral stays at the 
light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back.
Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), 
there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP.
This is cleaner and involves much less splicing.  Fewer connections is 
usually better in my book.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote:


I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the 
neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel 
and the neutral in another.






Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Mac Lewis]

Hi Ray,

Sorry to be unclear, yes, in almost all cases it would involve a splice of
some kind.  My main issue is can you use a service panel as a pass through
box.

Thanks

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> Hi Mac;
>
> I'm not sure I understand how you would extend the wires without splicing.
> BTW you only need to extend the hots, not the neutrals or grounds.
> *NEC 312.8* sets a cross sectional area limit of 75% for the splices and
> wires inside an OCPD Enclosure.
> I just found these inline splices to use instead of the infamous wire
> nut:  http://www.idealindustries.co.uk/product/12/557/67825/.html
> These should make for a cleaner install, and take less precious space, but
> I haven't tried them yet.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760
>
> On 9/8/2016 6:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:
>
> Hello wrenches,
>
> We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel
> adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads.  I've
> always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we
> can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the
> critical load panel.  Is there code violation for doing a splice in the
> main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel?  You would be
> treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical
> loads.
>
> It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch packages
> with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do just that.
>
> Code references would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates *
>
>
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>
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>
>


-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Chris Mason]

You have to splice the load cabling in the main panel, otherwise you would
need to run new conduits and cables. There's nothing that I know of that
prevents you splicing wires.
I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You
should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in
another.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hello wrenches,
>
> We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel
> adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads.  I've
> always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we
> can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the
> critical load panel.  Is there code violation for doing a splice in the
> main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel?  You would be
> treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical
> loads.
>
> It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch packages
> with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do just that.
>
> Code references would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Ray Walters]

Hi Mac;

I'm not sure I understand how you would extend the wires without 
splicing. BTW you only need to extend the hots, not the neutrals or 
grounds.
*NEC 312.8* sets a cross sectional area limit of 75% for the splices and 
wires inside an OCPD Enclosure.
I just found these inline splices to use instead of the infamous wire 
nut: http://www.idealindustries.co.uk/product/12/557/67825/.html
These should make for a cleaner install, and take less precious space, 
but I haven't tried them yet.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/8/2016 6:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:

Hello wrenches,

We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel 
adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads.  
I've always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we 
use) that we can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load 
wiring to the critical load panel.  Is there code violation for doing 
a splice in the main panel and extending the leads to the critical 
panel?  You would be treating the service panel as a 
pass-trough/splice box for those critical loads.


It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch 
packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to 
do just that.


Code references would be appreciated.

Thanks

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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[RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Mac Lewis]

Hello wrenches,

We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel
adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads.  I've
always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we
can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the
critical load panel.  Is there code violation for doing a splice in the
main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel?  You would be
treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical
loads.

It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch packages
with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do just that.

Code references would be appreciated.

Thanks

-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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