Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
At 04:55 PM 5/12/06 -0500, you wrote: I am most familiar with Islamic practice in the Middle East (Iraq, Jordan and Egypt). While Friday is usually taken as part of the weekend in those counties, Friday is not considered the Sabbath -- so there is no religious obligation to observe the whole day. I would suspect that the Islamic students in this country are seeking an accomodation that, they feel, respects their faith in the same way Sabbatarians are accomodated. Moreover, the principle religious service is noon prayers -- so So, are you suggesting this is really the same sort of thing as minority religions seeking to add their representation to the list of alternate-side-parking-exemption days here in New York, whether there is any particular need for parking on the days or not? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/339 - Release Date: 5/14/06 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
- Original Message - From: Will Linden [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, are you suggesting this is really the same sort of thing as minority religions seeking to add their representation to the list of alternate-side-parking-exemption days here in New York, whether there is any particular need for parking on the days or not? I think this trivializes the desire to be recognized and respected by one's country through some type of acknowledgement of religious difference. In this regard, it is far more understandable for a minority to seek a minor accomodation as opposed the the annual hysteria over Christmas displays and seasons greetings by a majority religion whose religious traditions are overwhelmingly respected and incorporated within the social norm. David ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
I agree that the local tradition takes precedence -- but what is the principle that controls? If this is maliable to fit the local group, do they have absolute autonomy to determine their norm -- or do we require that they adjust their tradition to fit our norms? Or must they adjust to the norm adopted by the group that is most accomodating to existing norms? For example, if one mosque adopts an evening service,does that means that all can and therefore no accomodation is necessary? I was simply citing the Middle East as a broad, diverse (Shi'a and Sunni) comparative norm from a region that most Muslims would consider relavent. David - Original Message - From: Steven Jamar To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday In the particular instance in Howard County Maryland, the primary weekly service is on Fridays at 1:45 pm, which would effectively cut out the last class period of the day on Fridays under the Howard County school schedule. The Muslim community associated with the one mosque in Howard County is seeking the accommodation for its male members who are required to attend. Women are encouraged to attend. There is nothing magical or critically important about the 1:45 start time, as opposed to a somewhat later or earlier time, but there are practical logistical reasons as well as religiously premised-reasons for that timing. In evaluating the request, it is important, is it not, to take it on its own terms and on the understandings of this Muslim community and its practices -- not those of several Sunni countries or Wahabi or Maliki or New York or any other Muslim community. Accommodation as a principle doesn't rest on the universality of some norm within a large category of religion, does it? We don't accommodate Christians based on them being just Christians or some practice in the Greek Orthodox tradition. We accommodate based on the local version, regardless of how idiosyncratic, right? Steve On May 12, 2006, at 5:55 PM, David E. Guinn wrote: This is a difficult answer to parse down to a principle. I am most familiar with Islamic practice in the Middle East (Iraq, Jordan and Egypt). While Friday is usually taken as part of the weekend in those counties, Friday is not considered the Sabbath -- so there is no religious obligation to observe the whole day. I would suspect that the Islamic students in this country are seeking an accomodation that, they feel, respects their faith in the same waySabbatarians are accomodated. Moreover, the principle religious service is noon prayers -- so evening service (to the extent that it exists)is an American adaptation. Should the School seek to enforce the adaptation? While this Middle Eastern based understanding might suggest an accomodation (i.e. allow these Muslim students to schedule study hall and lunch together to facilitate their attending noon prayers on Friday), what happens to an Americanized Muslim congregation that seeks to treat Friday as a Sabbath? David - Original Message - From: Volokh, Eugene To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday I would think that there's a difference -- the sort of difference in quantity that becomes a difference in quality -- between skipping a couple of days and skipping every Friday afternoon. It may be worth accommodating students even in the latter instance, but I'm not sure the two are fully on point. Incidentally, if I were a school administrator, I'd want to know how firm the students' insistence is likely to be (as well as, of course, knowing how much of each Friday afternoon they wanted to take off). If they're likely to be unbudgeable, then I might figure that there's little gained in being a hardass. On the other hand, if the felt obligation isn't that strong -- for instance, if they could and would attend Friday evening services were they to be required to stay in school until the end of the school day -- then I might be more insistent. (I also probably wouldn't disclose this decision tree to them up front.) Eugene -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steven JamarSent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:06 AMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Early dismissal for Muslims on FridaySome Muslim students have requested that Howard County Maryland schools release them early
RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
Title: Message I agree that accommodation decisions should look (among other things) to the felt religious obligations of the particular person who asks for the accommodation, and not to majority views of the very broad group to which he belongs. Yet it seems to me that it should often matter whether the person's particular practices are a matter of felt religious obligation -- or even felt religious motivations, or perhaps even very longstanding religiously-linked tradition-- or are just a matter of the way he happens to operate. If I were running a school and deciding on an accommodation that might be quite disruptive to the child's schooling experience (because it would require him to take several hours off every week), I'd want to know whether, if the accommodation were denied, theperson would be able to switch to a later service (perhaps even getting his community to accommodate him on that). If so, then I'd be inclined to try to press him to accommodate -- since such an accommodation seems workable -- rather than accommodating him. On the other hand, if the 1:45 time is a firm requirement, especially one dictated by felt religious obligation, then I might be more inclined to try to accommodate such a time (if the accommodation is possible). Eugene -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven JamarSent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:31 AMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on FridayIn the particular instance in Howard County Maryland, the primary weekly service is on Fridays at 1:45 pm, which would effectively cut out the last class period of the day on Fridays under the Howard County school schedule. The Muslim community associated with the one mosque in Howard County is seeking the accommodation for its male members who are required to attend. Women are encouraged to attend. There is nothing magical or critically important about the 1:45 start time, as opposed to a somewhat later or earlier time, but there are practical logistical reasons as well as religiously premised-reasons for that timing. In evaluating the request, it is important, is it not, to take it on its own terms and on the understandings of this Muslim community and its practices -- not those of several Sunni countries or Wahabi or Maliki or New York or any other Muslim community. Accommodation as a principle doesn't rest on the universality of some norm within a large category of religion, does it? We don't accommodate Christians based on them being just Christians or some practice in the Greek Orthodox tradition. We accommodate based on the local version, regardless of how idiosyncratic, right? Steve On May 12, 2006, at 5:55 PM, David E. Guinn wrote: This is a difficult answer to parse down to a principle. I am most familiar with Islamic practice in the Middle East (Iraq, Jordan and Egypt). While Friday is usually taken as part of the weekend in those counties, Friday is not considered the Sabbath -- so there is no religious obligation to observe the whole day. I would suspect that the Islamic students in this country are seeking an accomodation that, they feel, respects their faith in the same waySabbatarians are accomodated. Moreover, the principle religious service is noon prayers -- so evening service (to the extent that it exists)is an American adaptation. Should the School seek to enforce the adaptation? While this Middle Eastern based understanding might suggest an accomodation (i.e. allow these Muslim students to schedule study hall and lunch together to facilitate their attending noon prayers on Friday), what happens to an Americanized Muslim congregation that seeks to treat Friday as a Sabbath? David - Original Message - From: Volokh, Eugene To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday I would think that there's a difference -- the sort of difference in quantity that becomes a difference in quality -- between skipping a couple of days and skipping every Friday afternoon. It may be worth accommodating students even in the latter instance, but I'm not sure the two are fully on point. Incidentally, if I were a school administrator, I'd want to know how firm the students' insistence is likely to be (as well as, of course, knowing how much of each Friday afternoon they wanted to take off). If they're likely to be unbudgeable, then I might figure that there's little gained in being a hardass. On the other hand, if the felt obligation isn't that strong
RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
Title: Message I cant speak to the exact time of the service, but I know that Muslim law students at Davis feel obliged to attend a prayer service early afternoon on Friday. It may be that there is some flexibility as to the actual time of the service, but the service will have to occur at some fixed time. It is not something that each individual can arrange separately. Thus, it may be difficult for an individual to accommodate the interests of a government institution. Alan Brownstein From: [EMAIL PROTECTED].ucla.edu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:30 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday I agree that accommodation decisions should look (among other things) to the felt religious obligations of the particular person who asks for the accommodation, and not to majority views of the very broad group to which he belongs. Yet it seems to me that it should often matter whether the person's particular practices are a matter of felt religious obligation -- or even felt religious motivations, or perhaps even very longstanding religiously-linked tradition-- or are just a matter of the way he happens to operate. If I were running a school and deciding on an accommodation that might be quite disruptive to the child's schooling experience (because it would require him to take several hours off every week), I'd want to know whether, if the accommodation were denied, theperson would be able to switch to a later service (perhaps even getting his community to accommodate him on that). If so, then I'd be inclined to try to press him to accommodate -- since such an accommodation seems workable -- rather than accommodating him. On the other hand, if the 1:45 time is a firm requirement, especially one dictated by felt religious obligation, then I might be more inclined to try to accommodate such a time (if the accommodation is possible). Eugene -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED].ucla.edu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Jamar Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:31 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday In the particular instance in Howard County Maryland, the primary weekly service is on Fridays at 1:45 pm, which would effectively cut out the last class period of the day on Fridays under the Howard County school schedule. The Muslim community associated with the one mosque in Howard County is seeking the accommodation for its male members who are required to attend. Women are encouraged to attend. There is nothing magical or critically important about the 1:45 start time, as opposed to a somewhat later or earlier time, but there are practical logistical reasons as well as religiously premised-reasons for that timing. In evaluating the request, it is important, is it not, to take it on its own terms and on the understandings of this Muslim community and its practices -- not those of several Sunni countries or Wahabi or Maliki or New York or any other Muslim community. Accommodation as a principle doesn't rest on the universality of some norm within a large category of religion, does it? We don't accommodate Christians based on them being just Christians or some practice in the Greek Orthodox tradition. We accommodate based on the local version, regardless of how idiosyncratic, right? Steve ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
This is a question that a growing number of school districts now face. The early afternoon time may vary somewhat... but the window of opportunity for the Friday prayer service falls within the school day. Some districts try to accommodate by allowing students to gather in an available space within the school. But unlike the more modest accommodation for brief daily prayers between classes (or during lunchtime), this approach runs into Establishment Clause problems. School officials find themselves changing student schedules, monitoring attendance, dealing with requests to allow religious leaders to lead the service etc. One Texas district recently had to pull the plug on this arrangement because they realized that a well-intentioned attempt to accommodate had begun to look like school endorsement of religion. Another option is to allow students to form a Muslim club under the guidelines established by the Equal Access Act and hold the Friday prayer service as part of the club meeting during lunch. But this approach is unworkable because students have different lunch schedules and outside adults may not regularly attend or lead such club meetings. The released-time option is probably the best solution, although it will not work in all school districts. While in another Texas district this week, I learned that released-time was considered and rejected because the mosque is too far away from the school. Many districts no longer want to allow released-time because of the pressures of time and block scheduling etc. But in some districts released-time works fairly well. Students are released for an hour and must return to finish the school day. (With a late start time like 1:45 students would not need to return since classes would be over. I suspect that the Howard County mosque may have scheduled the Friday prayer as late as possible in order to avoid the problems of getting students back to school.) Of course, all other religious groups must also be offered the opportunity for a released-time program. Most districts are resistant to this idea either because it cuts too much into class time (and in most states the amount of time students must be in class to earn credit is fixed by law) and/or it is too difficult to monitor (and students don't want to return on a Friday afternoon). Since public schools may decide whether or not to allow released-time, this has become a point of tension between school boards and Muslim groups in some places. Muslims argue that since this is an obligation of faith (unlike, for example, requests for released-time by Christians for Bible study), public schools should find a way to accommodate. I'm inclined to agree -- although I recognize the barriers schools face in finding a solution. Charles Haynes From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Alan Brownstein Sent: Mon 5/15/2006 1:43 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday I can't speak to the exact time of the service, but I know that Muslim law students at Davis feel obliged to attend a prayer service early afternoon on Friday. It may be that there is some flexibility as to the actual time of the service, but the service will have to occur at some fixed time. It is not something that each individual can arrange separately. Thus, it may be difficult for an individual to accommodate the interests of a government institution. Alan Brownstein From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:30 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday I agree that accommodation decisions should look (among other things) to the felt religious obligations of the particular person who asks for the accommodation, and not to majority views of the very broad group to which he belongs. Yet it seems to me that it should often matter whether the person's particular practices are a matter of felt religious obligation -- or even felt religious motivations, or perhaps even very longstanding religiously-linked tradition -- or are just a matter of the way he happens to operate. If I were running a school and deciding on an accommodation that might be quite disruptive to the child's schooling experience (because it would require him to take several hours off every week), I'd want to know whether, if the accommodation were denied, the person would be able to switch to a later service (perhaps even getting his community to accommodate him on that). If so, then I'd be inclined to try to press him to accommodate -- since such an accommodation seems workable -- rather than accommodating him. On the other hand, if the 1:45 time is a firm requirement, especially one dictated by felt religious obligation, then I might
Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
At 11:28 AM 5/15/06 -0500, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Will Linden [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, are you suggesting this is really the same sort of thing as minority religions seeking to add their representation to the list of alternate-side-parking-exemption days here in New York, whether there is any particular need for parking on the days or not? I think this trivializes the desire to be recognized and respected by one's country through some type of acknowledgement of religious difference. Then what do you call some recent calls by NY atheists to add Darwins's birthday to the list? Are they trivializing the issue or not? r wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/339 - Release Date: 5/14/06 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/339 - Release Date: 5/14/06 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
Since atheists, by definition, deny religious obligation -- one can't help feeling that the effort to include Darwin's birthday is little more than a hostile protest. - Original Message - From: Will Linden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday At 11:28 AM 5/15/06 -0500, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Will Linden [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, are you suggesting this is really the same sort of thing as minority religions seeking to add their representation to the list of alternate-side-parking-exemption days here in New York, whether there is any particular need for parking on the days or not? I think this trivializes the desire to be recognized and respected by one's country through some type of acknowledgement of religious difference. Then what do you call some recent calls by NY atheists to add Darwins's birthday to the list? Are they trivializing the issue or not? r wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/339 - Release Date: 5/14/06 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/339 - Release Date: 5/14/06 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
Title: Message I would think that there's a difference -- the sort of difference in quantity that becomes a difference in quality -- between skipping a couple of days and skipping every Friday afternoon. It may be worth accommodating students even in the latter instance, but I'm not sure the two are fully on point. Incidentally, if I were a school administrator, I'd want to know how firm the students' insistence is likely to be (as well as, of course, knowing how much of each Friday afternoon they wanted to take off). If they're likely to be unbudgeable, then I might figure that there's little gained in being a hardass. On the other hand, if the felt obligation isn't that strong -- for instance, if they could and would attend Friday evening services were they to be required to stay in school until the end of the school day -- then I might be more insistent. (I also probably wouldn't disclose this decision tree to them up front.) Eugene -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven JamarSent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:06 AMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Early dismissal for Muslims on FridaySome Muslim students have requested that Howard County Maryland schools release them early from school to attend Muslim services Friday afternoons. Any advice for our County Board on this one? Here we take not just the major Christian holidays off, but also Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, if I recall correctly. And of course allow release for other religious observances and accommodate Seventh Day Adventists and others as much as can be done practicably (scheduling sporting events and the like). Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar "God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other." Reinhold Neibuhr 1943 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday
Title: Message This is a difficult answer to parse down to a principle. I am most familiar with Islamic practice in the Middle East (Iraq, Jordan and Egypt). While Friday is usually taken as part of the weekend in those counties, Friday is not considered the Sabbath -- so there is no religious obligation to observe the whole day. I would suspect that the Islamic students in this country are seeking an accomodation that, they feel, respects their faith in the same waySabbatarians are accomodated. Moreover, the principle religious service is noon prayers -- so evening service (to the extent that it exists)is an American adaptation. Should the School seek to enforce the adaptation? While this Middle Eastern based understanding might suggest an accomodation (i.e. allow these Muslim students to schedule study hall and lunch together to facilitate their attending noon prayers on Friday), what happens to an Americanized Muslim congregation that seeks to treat Friday as a Sabbath? David - Original Message - From: Volokh, Eugene To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: RE: Early dismissal for Muslims on Friday I would think that there's a difference -- the sort of difference in quantity that becomes a difference in quality -- between skipping a couple of days and skipping every Friday afternoon. It may be worth accommodating students even in the latter instance, but I'm not sure the two are fully on point. Incidentally, if I were a school administrator, I'd want to know how firm the students' insistence is likely to be (as well as, of course, knowing how much of each Friday afternoon they wanted to take off). If they're likely to be unbudgeable, then I might figure that there's little gained in being a hardass. On the other hand, if the felt obligation isn't that strong -- for instance, if they could and would attend Friday evening services were they to be required to stay in school until the end of the school day -- then I might be more insistent. (I also probably wouldn't disclose this decision tree to them up front.) Eugene -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven JamarSent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:06 AMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Early dismissal for Muslims on FridaySome Muslim students have requested that Howard County Maryland schools release them early from school to attend Muslim services Friday afternoons. Any advice for our County Board on this one? Here we take not just the major Christian holidays off, but also Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, if I recall correctly. And of course allow release for other religious observances and accommodate Seventh Day Adventists and others as much as can be done practicably (scheduling sporting events and the like). Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar "God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other." Reinhold Neibuhr 1943 ___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
