Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
One issue that has be intimated but not stated explicitly, I think, is that the students are acting lawlessly. Is that the message that we want to send our children and other students? That it's OK when you have conscientious beliefs to violate laws and societal norms just because you think you should? The majoritarian issue obscures this. If a minority of Muslim students acted this way they would be just as culpable as a majority of Christian students. Of course, the point where the majority issue is pertinent is whether the group will be able to get away with its lawless conduct. This issue, of course, is one of many in the battle overcontrol of the public square.Some want a relativelyneutral public square, not in any philosophical sense, just in the practical sense of barring as many sectarian perspectives from formal _expression_ as possible. Opponentscontent that this relative neutrality is in reality smuggling in a particular "liberal" sectarian point of view.I disagree with the view that a practical sense of "neutrality" as opposed to a conceptual, philosophical,or political theoretical sense is impossible. But that's where thecontroversy should be joined? BobbyRobert Justin LipkinProfessor of LawWidener University School of LawDelaware ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I am wondering whether the concern with majorities v. minorities is precise enough to capture what is going on here. On the one hand, graduation speeches about about who we are. They are, almost by definition, inclusive. On the other hand, who we are is contestable. A good deal of politics, contrary to much rational choice theory, is about getting people to define themselves as a people in certain ways. And every definition, privilieges some people at the expense of others. The mere decision to invite George Bush or Hiliary Clinton will offend some people (typically in the minority at that school district), as is the decision to invite the local athletic hero (offends those who think we place too much emphasis on sports). Moreover, the speaker must say something, that something cannot be fully neutral and will inevitably define some people as more in than others. The worst graduation speech I ever heard was by a friend, who in an effort to be uncontroversial offended a great many people, by blithely passing over numerous controversial issues, pretending no controversy existed. Nevertheless, I believe at the core of the first amendment is the principle that we is not defined by membership in a religion or religious belief in general. For this reason, why I would have no constitutional objection to a public school inviting Professor Duncan, as a national authority on religious freedom, to give a commencement address on why we are committed to his vision of religion freedom, I do not believe he or anyone else giving a speech sponsored by a public institution where they are expected to speak for all of us may lead of utter a sectarian prayer (and I do not believe there is any such thing as a non-sectarian prayer). Mark A. Graber ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
The backstory: According to press accounts, each year the seniors at Russell County High School elect a class chaplain (this year, Megan Chapman) who gives the prayer at graduation. A student filed suit to stop the prayer. Hearing about the suit, the seniors (apparently following the advice of Liberty Counsel) re-elected Chapman the day before graduation to give a message. The judge was apparently not impressed by the switch and ordered school officials and the student not to include a prayer in the ceremony. That led to the protest by 200 seniors during the event. According to the news account in the Courier-Journal, Chapman did give a speech in which she spoke of her faith in God and urged her classmates to trust in God. In my view, the original arrangement (seniors elect a chaplain to give a prayer) is unconstitutional (Santa Fe). The alternative -- the selection of a student to give a message -- is the advice given by groups like Liberty Counsel (relying on Adler) -- and close to the advice given in the U.S. Dept. of Education guidelines (2003). The fact that the students (perhaps encouraged by school officials) tried to change from prayer to message at the last minute undermines the charge by Chapman/Liberty Counsel that her speech rights were violated by the judge's order. It seems to me that the protest by the 200 students (and the standing ovation from the crowd) was all about the what they believe to be the right of the majority to impose prayer (their prayer) on everyone else at the graduation. It is not enough that Chapman was free to express her personal religious views in her speech or that they could have as much prayer as they wish at a privately-sponsored baccalaureate. They want the kind of Christian prayer that has been offered at graduation in Russell County for years. This conflict isn't about free speech or even a 60-second prayer; it's about who gets to define what kind of nation we are. Charles Haynes First Amendment Center From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Kurt Lash Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 10:14 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty I think that the denigration of Rick and his original post has gone a bit overboard. As I understand the facts (and I could be wrong), the students voted on a graduation speaker and that speaker planned on including a prayer as part of her speech. In an injunction based on a suit filed only days before, the judge prohibited the student from praying. Apparently prayers were a traditional part of the ceremony, but it's not clear how they took place. But taking the facts as known, I am not at all convinced that the Court's establishment clause jurisprudence forbids all prayers by invited private speakers (including students) at school events. Could she have been held in contempt if she declared God have mercy on the souls of those killed in Iraq? It seems to me that when the government opens a space for private speech, forbiding private speakers from engaging in religion talk raises serious First Amendment issues. It begs the question to assert tyranny of the majority. As I tell my students, the only thing worse than a tyranical majority is a tyrannical minority--or a single tyrant. The issue is whether a supermajority of the people, at a moment in time, enshrined a principle in our constitution which justifies the injunction in this case. Unless I am wrong about the facts, I am not at all convinced that it does. The students' action/protest not only accepted (for the moment) the court's ruling (no lynch mob here), I thougt its symbolism was quite potent: The courts cannot silence our private religious speech. They may have acted from a religious/majoritarian impulse, but the constitutional principle involved protects both the majority and minority from unwarranted government censorship--whether by courts or by school boards, and whether the speech is secular or religious. Kurt Lash Loyola Law School (L.A.) PS: There is, of course, a serious issue regarding the degree to which members of an an audience may prevent a speaker from speaking, or a ceremony from taking place, through their disruptive protests--whether religious or secular based. This issue, however, has nothing to do with the establishment issues raised by those responding to Rick's post. Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Boundary_(ID_ZW+hF43hOXfSlPtjprWkmg) Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT --Boundary_(ID_ZW+hF43hOXfSlPtjprWkmg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I see from earlier news stories that the student first asked the principal to not schedule prayers at the graduation, and the principal refused. The prayers objected to originally were clearly out of line under current case law. School authorities shouldn't be in the business of telling kids when to pray -- and is that not exactly what
RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
"This conflict isn't about "free speech" or even a 60-second prayer; it's about who gets to define what kind of nation we are." Charles HaynesFirst Amendment CenterI agree with this insight. I don't think this issue is about the majority of students bullying a classmate as some have suggested. I think it is about students taking a stand against a particular view of America, a view that wishes to impose a strictly secular establishment in the schools. I guess they (the students who took a stand and their parents who applauded)would say that it is better for the people to define the role of religion in the schools than for the ACLU and federal courts to do so.I personally am not one who wishes to use public schools to impose religion on dissenters. But I am also strongly imposed to the public schools becoming an engine of secularization, a place where religious children need to wear a secular mask when taking part in school activities.Again, school choice is the solution to this problem of "defining" what kind of nation we are and what kind of schools we attend. It does not have to be either religious schools and prayer or secular schools and no prayer. It can be both. The one for those who value religion as a necessary part of the education of children; and the other for those who don't. But if we have a government school monopoly, and if someone tries to impose a strictly secular environment within that monopoly, then I will applaud students who stand up and say "we will not be silenced;we are going to participate in defining what kind of nation we are." These kids are heroes in my book. Their parents should be proud of them.Rick DuncanRick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902"It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)"Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst."-- Id. Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Rick Duncan wrote: "This conflict isn't about "free speech" or even a 60-second prayer; it's about who gets to define what kind of nation we are." Charles Haynes First Amendment Center I agree with this insight. I don't think this issue is about the majority of students bullying a classmate as some have suggested. Do you really think that booing the Muslim student who objected to the prayer is *not* bullying? If so, perhaps you have a very different definition of booing than I do. I think it is about students taking a stand against a particular view of America, a view that wishes to impose a strictly secular establishment in the schools. I guess they (the students who took a stand and their parents who applauded)would say that it is better for the people to define the role of religion in the schools than for the ACLU and federal courts to do so. That's an absolutely absurd position. By that position, if "the people" decided to mandate that all students pray 5 times a day toward Mecca, the ACLU and federal courts could have no say in it. It's one thing to argue that this particular type of prayer does not violate the establishment clause (I think most of us agree that it's a close call, given the precedents); it's quite another to think that "the people" should get to decide whatever role religion will play in public schools. That is a pure recipe for majoritarian tyranny. I personally am not one who wishes to use public schools to impose religion on dissenters. But I am also strongly imposed to the public schools becoming an engine of secularization, a place where religious children need to wear a secular mask when taking part in school activities. And you honestly think that if students cannot force other students to sit through their religious exercises, then schools are "engines of secularization"? By that logic, then, could not a Muslim argue that allowing others to force them to sit through Christian prayers makes the schools an "engine of Christianization"? Again, school choice is the solution to this problem of "defining" what kind of nation we are and what kind of schools we attend. It does not have to be either religious schools and prayer or secular schools and no prayer. It can be both. The one for those who value religion as a necessary part of the education of children; and the other for those who don't. I agree with this, but we still must decide what goes on in public schools right now as they exist. And since A) public schools include a diverse student body of a multitude of religious viewpoints; B) religious exercises have no role to play in the educational mission of the school; and C) allowing any one religion to have access to force other religions to sit through their religious exercises during school activities can only result in alienation and conflict; it is clear to me that the best policy is simply to keep religion out of school activities altogether. But if we have a government school monopoly, and if someone tries to impose a strictly secular environment within that monopoly, then I will applaud students who stand up and say "we will not be silenced;we are going to participate in defining what kind of nation we are." These kids are heroes in my book. Their parents should be proud of them. But I doubt you would feel that way if the facts were turned around only slightly. Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say in the middle of the student's prayer, a group of Muslim students stood up and began to loudly recite an Islamic prayer in Arabic. Would you still applaud those students for standing up and saying "we will not be silenced, we are going to participate in defining what kind of nation we are"? I highly doubt it. I think you only applaud this because your views sit squarely with the majority, which in my mind means that it does amount to bullying - we have the numbers, so you're just going to have to sit there and take it while we carry out our religious exercises during a school event where religion is completely irrelevant to the process of education. If you were in the minority, I suspect your opinion would be dramatically different. Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
With all due respect, the prayer was hardly private. -Original Message- From: Kurt Lash [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:14 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty I think that the denigration of Rick and his original post has gone a bit overboard. As I understand the facts (and I could be wrong), the students voted on a graduation speaker and that speaker planned on including a prayer as part of her speech. In an injunction based on a suit filed only days before, the judge prohibited the student from praying. Apparently prayers were a traditional part of the ceremony, but it's not clear how they took place. But taking the facts as known, I am not at all convinced that the Court's establishment clause jurisprudence forbids all prayers by invited private speakers (including students) at school events. Could she have been held in contempt if she declared God have mercy on the souls of those killed in Iraq? It seems to me that when the government opens a space for private speech, forbiding private speakers from engaging in religion talk raises serious First Amendment issues. It begs the question to assert tyranny of the majority. As I tell my students, the only thing worse than a tyranical majority is a tyrannical minority--or a single tyrant. The issue is whether a supermajority of the people, at a moment in time, enshrined a principle in our constitution which justifies the injunction in this case. Unless I am wrong about the facts, I am not at all convinced that it does. The students' action/protest not only accepted (for the moment) the court's ruling (no lynch mob here), I thougt its symbolism was quite potent: The courts cannot silence our private religious speech. They may have acted from a religious/majoritarian impulse, but the constitutional principle involved protects both the majority and minority from unwarranted government censorship--whether by courts or by school boards, and whether the speech is secular or religious. Kurt Lash Loyola Law School (L.A.) PS: There is, of course, a serious issue regarding the degree to which members of an an audience may prevent a speaker from speaking, or a ceremony from taking place, through their disruptive protests--whether religious or secular based. This issue, however, has nothing to do with the establishment issues raised by those responding to Rick's post. Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Boundary_(ID_ZW+hF43hOXfSlPtjprWkmg) Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT --Boundary_(ID_ZW+hF43hOXfSlPtjprWkmg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I see from earlier news stories that the student first asked the principal to not schedule prayers at the graduation, and the principal refused. The prayers objected to originally were clearly out of line under current case law. School authorities shouldn't be in the business of telling kids when to pray -- and is that not exactly what scheduling prayers is? Rick, is there any reason this group shouldn't be compared to the lynch mob that goes after a suspected horse thief? The fellow may be guilty, and a court can determine that later -- but lynching is illegal, and shouldn't we trust to the courts to arrive at a near-just conclusion? I graduated from a high school where I was one of 2 students -- about 1% of the graduating class -- not of the predominant religion. I understand exactly what the plaintiff in the case complained about. It's scary that a ruling from a federal court is not enough to preserve religious rights against a mob. I'm deeply troubled by that. Ed Darrell Dallas Rick Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is the way I look at it. One poor kid tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU. His classmates did not like being silenced by the poor kid. So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious expression at their own commencement. They did not violate the spirit of the EC. The spirit of the EC deals with government coercion and religion. The true spirit of the Religion Clause is on the side of the students who would not be cowed and silenced by the ACLU and the unelected judiciary. I am proud of these kids. I hope their spirit spreads to many other schools and impacts many other commencements. There is no need to ask school officials to sponsor prayer. All students need to do is pray: without asking for endorsement or permission from government authorities. Cheers, Rick Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some info from the involved ACLU affiliate is at this link: http://www.aclu-ky.org/news.html#Grad%20Prayer That info includes the following paragraph: School-sponsored prayer constitutes a symbolic and tangible ‘preference… given by lawâ
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
So, can we expect this "protest" to become a tradition at this and other schools? And what will school officials do when muslim students decide to sing the call to prayer during the ceremony? Or when atheists decide they need to be heard? On what grounds will the school threaten to stifle any spontaneous speech _expression_ if they refuse to curtail this? it's not about religious _expression_, this incident, it's about schools having the right and responsibility to maintain discipline and order ton conduct their activities--the same reason that restricting a student from disrupting algebra class by standing up and reciting a prayer aloud isn't a violation of his constitutional rights.Surely, Rick, you don't suggest the school system begin condoning certain religious acts of protest but not others? I'm sure the school had policies and punishments in place to address this kind of disruption. They should not pick and choose when to apply those regulations based on their level of agreement with the religious speech in question. And, seriously, you think a school system should sanction a process in which a majority religion gets to elect a graduation "chaplain" for the purposes of giving the graduation prayer??As for how you restrict these kinds of activities, ask the valedictorian in Gallatin, TN... he insisted on being heard at his graduation ceremony, which did not allow for a valedictorian speech. He now faces disorderly conduct charges and is having his diploma withheld. Why is this case any different?http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060524/NEWS04/605240379On May 24, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Rick Duncan wrote:"This conflict isn't about "free speech" or even a 60-second prayer; it's about who gets to define what kind of nation we are." Charles HaynesFirst Amendment Center I agree with this insight. I don't think this issue is about the majority of students bullying a classmate as some have suggested. I think it is about students taking a stand against a particular view of America, a view that wishes to impose a strictly secular establishment in the schools. I guess they (the students who took a stand and their parents who applauded) would say that it is better for the people to define the role of religion in the schools than for the ACLU and federal courts to do so. I personally am not one who wishes to use public schools to impose religion on dissenters. But I am also strongly imposed to the public schools becoming an engine of secularization, a place where religious children need to wear a secular mask when taking part in school activities. Again, school choice is the solution to this problem of "defining" what kind of nation we are and what kind of schools we attend. It does not have to be either religious schools and prayer or secular schools and no prayer. It can be both. The one for those who value religion as a necessary part of the education of children; and the other for those who don't. But if we have a government school monopoly, and if someone tries to impose a strictly secular environment within that monopoly, then I will applaud students who stand up and say "we will not be silenced; we are going to participate in defining what kind of nation we are." These kids are heroes in my book. Their parents should be proud of them. Rick Duncan Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst." -- Id. Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. ___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Link(See also link)Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM ESTBy Sher Zieve Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleys ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckys Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lords Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to."Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902"It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)"Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst."-- Id. Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
why is this a story of liberty? the liberty of the majority to oppress the minority? by the way, Rick, was it the Protestant or the Catholic Lord's Prayer they wanted to say. Rick Duncan wrote: Link(See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleys ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckys Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lords Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school. Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to." Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst."-- Id. Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Yes! Let us not show regard and concern for those who do not think of Jesus as their savior or those who do not want church in their schools or those who think differently! Let freedom ring for the majority of right believers! Let us demonize and marginalize those who believe something else! Let us not respect the law or the Constitution or the value of the legal processes! Let us all come together as one! Under Jesus!Say AMEN somebody!Seriously, though, I don't mind students doing this sort of thing. I do mind the motive being to disobey the courts and to disregard the values of a non-like-minded classmate. But religion is only one of many ways in which students ostracize others, and usually not the most common or damaging one.SteveOn May 23, 2006, at 12:03 PM, Rick Duncan wrote:Link (See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve – Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinley’s ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentucky’s Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lord’s Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to."Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst." -- Id. Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-85672900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/"Politics hates a vacuum. If it isn't filled with hope, someone will fill it with fear."Naomi Klein ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there.But is it really a "loophole" for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students notschool officials--from praying at their own graduation? It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious _expression_ of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony.Cheers, RickCheers, Rick"Friedman, Howard M." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html*Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link(See also link)Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and CourtMay 20, 2006 01:43 PM ESTBy Sher Zieve Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleys ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckys Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lords Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student.Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to."Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902"It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)"Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst."-- Id.Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902"It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)"Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst."-- Id. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min.___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Some info from the involved ACLU affiliate isat this link: http://www.aclu-ky.org/news.html#Grad%20Prayer That info includes the following paragraph: "School-sponsored prayer constitutes a symbolic and tangible ‘preference… given by law’ to a religious sect by exalting it over contrary religious beliefs deemed less worthy of government endorsement,” the ACLU argues in the court papers. “It compels attendance at a place of worship by conditioning participation at public graduation ceremonies on acceptance of prayer at those ceremonies.” I don't see how having a student body election for "graduation chaplain" as I saw described in this Kentucky case cures the problem post Lee and Santa Fe. I don't know why anyone would cheer the ostracism of some poor kid at his own high school graduation. With all due respect to Prof. Duncan, that doesn't sound like "religious liberty" to me. Allen Asch In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:14:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled “Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes” at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html *Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link(See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve – Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinley’s ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentucky’s Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lord’s Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to." Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
But, Rick, your first post seemed to depend on collapsing the distinction that you're now insisting on. I gather the judge's order was precisely against school-sponsored prayer. If that's right, then you're right. The students weren't defying the court's order. What they did was consistent with it. They weren't taking a stand for free speech and religious liberty if no one was telling them not to do what they did. Of course, it's obvious that the students didn't see it that way. They understood this to be a zero-sum game, and the prayer to be a communal triumph over the one student who had objected. This kind of mass collective humiliation has moral, but not legal, implications. It's not clear that the hurt feelings on all sides would be less if efforts were made to educate the public about just what the establishment clause forbids. But it would be interesting to conduct the experiment. Andy Koppelman At 02:18 PM 5/23/2006, you wrote: I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there. But is it really a loophole for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students not school officials-- from praying at their own graduation? It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious _expression_ of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony. Cheers, Rick Cheers, Rick Friedman, Howard M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html * Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. Professor Emeritus University of ?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags /Toledo College of Law Toledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link (See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleys ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckys Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lords Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school. Chapman commented It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out, then added: More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to. Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence. --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst. -- Id. Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I guess it is a "loophole" in the sense that if the students respected the spirit of the EC, they would be less likely to trip along the edges of it like this.There are good reasons for the EC and for the sharper separation of church and state. Keeping religious practices out of public governmental ceremonies such as public school graduation advances those purposes. Students finding ways around the constitutional limits of EC in violation of the spirit and countering the purposes of the EC do constitute a loophole -- at least from a policy perspective.SteveOn May 23, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Rick Duncan wrote:I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there. But is it really a "loophole" for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students not school officials-- from praying at their own graduation? It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious _expression_ of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony. Cheers, Rick Cheers, Rick"Friedman, Howard M." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled “Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes” at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html *Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. Professor EmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link (See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and CourtMay 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve – Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinley’s ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentucky’s Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lord’s Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student.Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to." Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst." -- Id.Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perve
RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I would suggest this is a loophole for two reasons. First, the purpose of the Establishment Clause is to permit people of all (and no) religious persuasions to feel that they are equal members of the political community. Certainly the objecting student did not feel that way after this demonstration. Indeed, even before, he or she felt compelled to bring the suit anonymously out of fear of the consequences. 14th Amendment jurisprudence has recognized that sometimes private conduct can amount to state action. When, as here, the school has effectively permitted those that wish to turn graduation into a religious statement to capture the event, I would suggest that they are performing the public function or setting the graduation ceremony agenda. Second, suppose that a group of 50 Wiccans had stood up and recited several stanzas affirming Wiccan beliefdo you believe that those at the front of the auditorium (not to mention security officials) would have just stood passively by and let them continue? If not, then official action here is favoring one religious belief. * Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritus University of Toledo College of Law Toledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:19 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there. But is it really a loophole for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students notschool officials--from praying at their own graduation? It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious _expression_ of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony. Cheers, Rick Cheers, Rick Friedman, Howard M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html * Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritus University of Toledo College of Law Toledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link(See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleys ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckys Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lords Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school. Chapman commented It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out, then added: More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to. Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence. --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) Once
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Here is the way I look at it. "One poor kid" tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU.His classmates did not like being silenced by the "poor kid." So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious _expression_ at their own commencement. They did not violate the spirit of the EC. The spirit of the EC deals with government coercionand religion. The true spirit of the Religion Clause is on the side of the students who would not be cowed and silenced by the ACLU and the unelected judiciary. I am proud of these kids. I hope their spirit spreads to many other schools and impacts many other commencements. There is no need to ask school officialsto sponsor prayer. All students need to do is pray: without asking for endorsement or permission from government authorities.Cheers, Rick Duncan[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Some info from the involved ACLU affiliate isat this link:http://www.aclu-ky.org/news.html#Grad%20PrayerThat info includes the following paragraph:"School-sponsored prayer constitutes a symbolic and tangible âpreference⦠given by lawâ to a religious sect by exalting it over contrary religious beliefs deemed less worthy of government endorsement,â the ACLU argues in the court papers. âIt compels attendance at a place of worship by conditioning participation at public graduation ceremonies on acceptance of prayer at those ceremonies.âI don't see how having a student body election for "graduation chaplain" as I saw described in this Kentucky case cures the problem post Lee and Santa Fe. I don't know why anyone would cheer the ostracism of some poor kid at his own high school graduation. With all due respect to Prof. Duncan, that doesn't sound like "religious liberty" to me.Allen Asch In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:14:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled âLooking for Establishment Clause Loopholesâ at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html*Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link(See also link)Excerpt from the second link):High School Students Defy ACLU and CourtMay 20, 2006 01:43 PM ESTBy Sher Zieve â Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleyâs ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckyâs Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lordâs Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student.Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to."Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902"It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence." --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)"Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst."-- Id. Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
For purposes of constitutional analysis, we're focused on the wrong actors. I agree with Steve and Andy that the students' grotesquely insensitive conduct violated moral and social norms, not legal constraints. But I don't think we should be so quick to assume that the prayer was not de facto school-sponsored; it's very possible that the school itself violated the Constitution (depending on undisclosed facts). I find it difficult to believe that the school officials did not have wind of what was about to occur. Did they do anything to head it off? Or did they -- perhaps by silence, if not a wink and nod -- send a signal of approval? More to the point, when the students broke into the Lord's Prayer en masse, what did school officials do about it? Did they react in the same way they would have reacted had the students collectively interrupted the ceremony to sing the latest Kanye West song? To chant protests about the Iraq War? We don't know, from the story Rick appended, how long the interruption lasted or how the school officials responded. The sense one gets, however, is that they permitted the student body to *take over* the graduation ceremony for a short period -- to lead the assemblage in prayer -- in a way they would not have done with respect to collective expression of another sort. If so, it's not entirely obvious that this case is distinguishable from Santa Fe. -- Original message -- From: Steven Jamar [EMAIL PROTECTED] I guess it is a loophole in the sense that if the students respected the spirit of the EC, they would be less likely to trip along the edges of it like this. There are good reasons for the EC and for the sharper separation of church and state. Keeping religious practices out of public governmental ceremonies such as public school graduation advances those purposes. Students finding ways around the constitutional limits of EC in violation of the spirit and countering the purposes of the EC do constitute a loophole -- at least from a policy perspective. Steve On May 23, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Rick Duncan wrote: I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there. But is it really a loophole for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class-- students not school officials-- from praying at their own graduation? It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious expression of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony. Cheers, Rick High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleys ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckys Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lords Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school. Chapman commented It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out, then added: More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to. Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Rick Duncan wrote: Here is the way I look at it. One poor kid tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU. His classmates did not like being silenced by the poor kid. So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious expression at their own commencement. They did not violate the spirit of the EC. The spirit of the EC deals with government coercion and religion. The true spirit of the Religion Clause is on the side of the students who would not be cowed and silenced by the ACLU and the unelected judiciary. I am proud of these kids. I hope their spirit spreads to many other schools and impacts many other commencements. There is no need to ask school officials to sponsor prayer. All students need to do is pray: without asking for endorsement or permission from government authorities. Just once, I'd really like to see a couple of Christian students at a graduation ceremony forced to sit through supplications to Allah and have a majority of Muslim students booing them as they get their diploma because they dared to object. I suspect a whole lot of the folks would switch sides in this debate very, very quickly. Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
This strikes me as theologically incoherent as well as constitutionally troubling (though more in terms of constitutional morality rather than law.) First, the students (as approved by Prof. Duncan) are using prayer not as a religious devotion but as a political act -- to express their disapproval of the one student and the "unelected judiciary" and as a weapon against others that don't share in that faith. That strikes me as sacralege as well as a perversion. Second, why is it necessary to make these prayers public in a public forum? This sounds a little too much like the hypocrites of Mt. 6:5 If it is a matter of needing community, why not a community made up of fellow believers rather than demanding the audience of those who might not believe (or believe as they do)? While it may be "their" commencement, it is also the commencement of all of the other students and their families present. Should everyone be allowed to interrupt the service and impose their religious exhortation on everyone else? Graduations frequently involve not just commencement, but a series of celebrations over the course of the weekend. Why not reserve religious celebrations for a separate ceremony shared among their community of faith? The only justification I can come up with is the belief that their faith is so weak that it must be endorsed by the school in the public ceremony. I find the whole thing offensive and sad. David Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:50:19 -0700From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduSubject: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Here is the way I look at it. "One poor kid" tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU. His classmates did not like being silenced by the "poor kid." So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious _expression_ at their own commencement. They did not violate the spirit of the EC. The spirit of the EC deals with government coercionand religion. The true spirit of the Religion Clause is on the side of the students who would not be cowed and silenced by the ACLU and the unelected judiciary. I am proud of these kids. I hope their spirit spreads to many other schools and impacts many other commencements. There is no need to ask school officialsto sponsor prayer. All students need to do is pray: without asking for endorsement or permission from government authorities. Cheers, Rick Duncan[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some info from the involved ACLU affiliate isat this link: http://www.aclu-ky.org/news.html#Grad%20Prayer That info includes the following paragraph: "School-sponsored prayer constitutes a symbolic and tangible ‘preference… given by law’ to a religious sect by exalting it over contrary religious beliefs deemed less worthy of government endorsement,� the ACLU argues in the court papers. “It compels attendance at a place of worship by conditioning participation at public graduation ceremonies on acceptance of prayer at those ceremonies.� I don't see how having a student body election for "graduation chaplain" as I saw described in this Kentucky case cures the problem post Lee and Santa Fe. I don't know why anyone would cheer the ostracism of some poor kid at his own high school graduation. With all due respect to Prof. Duncan, that doesn't sound like "religious liberty" to me. Allen Asch In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:14:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled “Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes� at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html *Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link(See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve – Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinley’s ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentucky’s Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lord’s Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senio
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Rick,I never would have labeled you as one so against Constitutional guarantees against majoritarian impulses run amok. Even though you are a member of the dominant religion in this country I would have expected you to favor the religious rights of the few to not be trampled by the majority's impulses.So, your take on this surprises me, frankly. I guess it is yet another application of the principle of the gored ox.SteveOn May 23, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Rick Duncan wrote:Howard: I have no idea what school authorities would have done if 50 Wiccan students had stood up and said a short Wiccan prayer. My guess is nothing. The Lord's prayer takes only a fraction of a minute to recite. What should school officials have done? Opened fire on the rowdy praying students? Called the state police? The students who prayed were trying to assert their own right to be equal members of the political community in the face of a court order treating a student speaker's religious _expression_ as unequal to secular _expression_. But I understand that reasonable people differ on how to view the dynamics of this issue. It is why I believe we need school choice, so each student can attend-- without penalty-- a school that allows each student to be true to him/herself and to his or her religious or secular identity. Cheers, Rick Duncan"Friedman, Howard M." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I would suggest this is a loophole for two reasons. First, the purpose of the Establishment Clause is to permit people of all (and no) religious persuasions to feel that they are equal members of the political community. Certainly the objecting student did not feel that way after this demonstration. Indeed, even before, he or she felt compelled to bring the suit anonymously out of fear of the consequences. 14th Amendment jurisprudence has recognized that sometimes private conduct can amount to state action. When, as here, the school has effectively permitted those that wish to turn graduation into a religious statement to capture the event, I would suggest that they are performing the “public function” or setting the graduation ceremony agenda. Second, suppose that a group of 50 Wiccans had stood up and recited several stanzas affirming Wiccan belief—do you believe that those at the front of the auditorium (not to mention security officials) would have just stood passively by and let them continue? If not, then official action here is favoring one religious belief.*Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. Professor EmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:19 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there. But is it really a "loophole" for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students not school officials-- from praying at their own graduation? It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious _expression_ of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony. Cheers, Rick -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-84282900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamarLay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:19-21 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the li
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
In a message dated 5/23/2006 4:32:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While it may be "their" commencement, it is also the commencement of all of the other students and their families present. Should everyone be allowed to interrupt the service and impose their religious exhortation on everyone else? David's post mentions several important issues. I would like simply to emphasize the one quoted above. It might be in a diverse religious society--even one with an EC proscription--that the commonly owned forum needs rules to decide how it should be used. What I want to emphasize in David's post is that it seems clearly antithetical to democracy and perhaps more importantly to public order to permit or encourage unilateral action by one faction to commandeerthe forum to use for that faction's purposes alone no matter how large the faction. Those who praise such action do so, I would think, because they agree with the content of the commandeering faction's conduct. But what will they say when they disapprove on conscientious grounds of the next faction to commandeer the forum? BobbyRobert Justin LipkinProfessor of LawWidener University School of LawDelaware ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I'm sure there are a few in the nation, but I have yet to find the public high school that does not have a baccalaureate service. One might wonder why that special service did not meet the needs of the students for public prayer, and if the affected high school did have such a service, one wonders how lawyers for each side might argue it affects such a case.Ed Darrell Dallas"David E. Guinn" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote (inter alia):This strikes me as theologically incoherent as well as constitutionally troubling (though more in terms of constitutional morality rather than law.) Graduations frequently involve not just commencement, but a series of celebrations over the course of the weekend. Why not reserve religious celebrations for a separate ceremony shared among their community of faith?David___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Unfortunately, those who favor and embrace the tyranny of the majoirty (like Rick) never think about what it would be like to be the minority; rather they glory in the ability to oppress those who are not ike them. It is as old story in America. Paul Finkelman Ed Brayton wrote: Rick Duncan wrote: Here is the way I look at it. One poor kid tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU. His classmates did not like being silenced by the poor kid. So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious expression at their own commencement. They did not violate the spirit of the EC. The spirit of the EC deals with government coercion and religion. The true spirit of the Religion Clause is on the side of the students who would not be cowed and silenced by the ACLU and the unelected judiciary. I am proud of these kids. I hope their spirit spreads to many other schools and impacts many other commencements. There is no need to ask school officials to sponsor prayer. All students need to do is pray: without asking for endorsement or permission from government authorities. Just once, I'd really like to see a couple of Christian students at a graduation ceremony forced to sit through supplications to Allah and have a majority of Muslim students booing them as they get their diploma because they dared to object. I suspect a whole lot of the folks would switch sides in this debate very, very quickly. Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I see from earlier news stories that the student first asked the principal to not schedule prayers at the graduation, and the principal refused. The prayers objected to originally were clearly out of line under current case law. School authorities shouldn't be in the business of telling kids when to pray -- and is that not exactly what scheduling prayers is?Rick, is there any reason this group shouldn't be compared to the lynch mob that goes after a suspected horse thief? The fellow may be guilty, and a court can determine that later -- but lynching is illegal, and shouldn't we trust to the courts to arrive at anear-just conclusion?I graduated from a high school where I was one of 2 students -- about 1% of the graduating class -- not of the predominant religion. I understand exactly what the plaintiff in the case complained about. It's scary that a ruling from a federal court is not enough to preserve religious rights against a mob. I'm deeply troubled by that.Ed Darrell DallasRick Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Here is the way I look at it. "One poor kid" tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU.His classmates did not like being silenced by the "poor kid." So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious _expression_ at their own commencement. They did not violate the spirit of the EC. The spirit of the EC deals with government coercionand religion. The true spirit of the Religion Clause is on the side of the students who would not be cowed and silenced by the ACLU and the unelected judiciary. I am proud of these kids. I hope their spirit spreads to many other schools and impacts many other commencements. There is no need to ask school officialsto sponsor prayer. All students need to do is pray: without asking for endorsement or permission from government authorities.Cheers, Rick Duncan[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Some info from the involved ACLU affiliate isat this link:http://www.aclu-ky.org/news.html#Grad%20PrayerThat info includes the following paragraph:"School-sponsored prayer constitutes a symbolic and tangible âpreference⦠given by lawâ to a religious sect by exalting it over contrary religious beliefs deemed less worthy of government endorsement,â the ACLU argues in the court papers. âIt compels attendance at a place of worship by conditioning participation at public graduation ceremonies on acceptance of prayer at those ceremonies.âI don't see how having a student body election for "graduation chaplain" as I saw described in this Kentucky case cures the problem post Lee and Santa Fe. I don't know why anyone would cheer the ostracism of some poor kid at his own high school graduation. With all due respect to Prof. Duncan, that doesn't sound like "religious liberty" to me.Allen Asch In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:14:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled âLooking for Establishment Clause Loopholesâ at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html*Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. ProfessorEmeritusUniversity of Toledo College of LawToledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link(See also link)Excerpt from the second link):High School Students Defy ACLU and CourtMay 20, 2006 01:43 PM ESTBy Sher Zieve â Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleyâs ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckyâs Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lordâs Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student.Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school.Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to."Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-090
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
graduation ceremonies on acceptance of prayer at those ceremonies.â I don't see how having a student body election for graduation chaplain as I saw described in this Kentucky case cures the problem post Lee and Santa Fe. I don't know why anyone would cheer the ostracism of some poor kid at his own high school graduation. With all due respect to Prof. Duncan, that doesn't sound like religious liberty to me. Allen Asch In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:14:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled âLooking for Establishment Clause Loopholesâ at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html * Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. Professor Emeritus University of Toledo College of Law Toledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty Link (See also link) Excerpt from the second link): High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST By Sher Zieve â Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinleyâs ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentuckyâs Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lordâs Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school. Chapman commented It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out, then added: More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to. Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these. I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty! Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence. --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience) Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst. -- Id. - Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. --Boundary_(ID_ZW+hF43hOXfSlPtjprWkmg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT divI see from earlier news stories that the student first asked the principal to not schedule prayers at the graduation, and the principal refused.nbsp; The prayers objected to originally were clearly out of line under current case law.nbsp; School authorities shouldn't be in the business of telling kids when to pray -- and is that not exactly what scheduling prayers is?/div divnbsp;/div divRick, is there any reason this group shouldn't be compared to the lynch mob that goes after a suspected horse thief?nbsp; The fellow may be guilty, and a court can determine that later -- but lynching is illegal, and shouldn't we trust to the courts to arrive at anbsp;near-just conclusion?/div divnbsp;/div divI graduated from a high school where I
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
In a message dated 5/23/06 11:34:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: public schools are not the place and when in public school is not the time to engage in religious worship. Why is that so hard to understand? That really is the nub, isn't it? But my impression is that there are many millions of people in this country who actually find that incomprehensible; who believe that there is no time when and no place where organized religious worship is inappropriate (as long as it's their religion); and who firmly believe that if the government prevents them from engaging in organized religious worship at any time or place that is a tyrannical oppression of their religion and an attempt to "ban it from the public square." Short of getting Bill Gates to pay for all such people to spend six months in Riyadh, how does one seek to penetrate such an attitude? Art Spitzer (ACLU) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
On May 23, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Rick Duncan wrote: The students who prayed were trying to assert their own right to be equal members of the political community in the face of a court order treating a student speaker's religious expression as unequal to secular expression. They aren't equal members of the political community. They are the MAJORITY and they were using that majority status to intimidate and harass that one student. They are bullies. Religion (of any particular flavor, but ESPECIALLY of the minority) has NO PLACE in public schools, and this seems to be something that has been forced on those not of Christian religious affiliation, to the point of fear of persecution. Freedom of religious expression and spirit of liberty, my lilly-white... *fume* Jean Dudley. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
