[Repeater-Builder] Re: LBI30200 UHF Exciter PDF
Thanks to John Lloyd K7JL... A copy of the LBI30200 UHF Exciter PDF showed up in my email today, and it is now on the LBI library page at repeater-builder at http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-master-list.html Mike WA6ILQ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] (OT) What's in YOUR attic ?
As long as we're looking up old articles - - Intel is looking for a copy of the 1965 magazine in which co-founder Gordon Moore first laid out his famous Moore's law. And it's willing to pay 10 big ones. http://update.informationweek.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/hnIc0GS4YV0G4n0DKJs0Ex Wonder if they'd pay off in time for Dayton ?? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] (OT) What's in YOUR attic ?
They probably have a 60 grace period in which they'll try and find an employee with a copy who in inelegible for the fee so they don't have to pay up. 73, Jon KD5SFA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 13, 2005 8:57 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] (OT) What's in YOUR attic ? As long as we're looking up old articles - - Intel is looking for a copy of the 1965 magazine in which co-founder Gordon Moore first laid out his famous Moore's law. And it's willing to pay 10 big ones. http://update.informationweek.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/hnIc0GS4YV0G4n0DKJs0Ex Wonder if they'd pay off in time for Dayton ?? Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs?
I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a repeater. I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure before I do or don't do anything. I'm going to swap around the transmit and receive frequencies on a repeater. What I was wondering was, can I just swap the transmit and receive linesbetween the duplexer and repeater, or does the duplexer have to be retuned for the new reversed transmit and receive frequencies? Thanks for andinput that can be provided, T.J. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs?
+Depends on the cables having the right connectors on them. tom n8ies - Original Message - From: T.J. To: Builder Repeater Sent: 4/13/2005 5:37:53 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs? I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a repeater. I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure before I do or don't do anything. I'm going to swap around the transmit and receive frequencies on a repeater. What I was wondering was, can I just swap the transmit and receive linesbetween the duplexer and repeater, or does the duplexer have to be retuned for the new reversed transmit and receive frequencies? Thanks for andinput that can be provided, T.J. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] BFR94 transistor replacement
Richard I saw your reply about the BFW92 replacing the MRF-901 and was wondering if you would know of a replacement for a BFR-94. I am in urgent need of one for my signal generator and maybe one spare. Thanks a lot. 73 de Tom Manning, AF4UG Richard D. Reese wrote: I have received many requests for the GLB transistor. I only have two left that are not promised. I will give them to anyone that is willing to make a donation to OMIK Scholarship Fund. The transistor is a BFW92 which is a drop-in replacement for the obsolete MRF-901. I have a PDF data sheet available to anyone requesting it. I have been told that a 2n6621 will also replace the MRF-901 but I have not tried that device. Richard D. Reese http://www.wa8dbw.ifip.com/Scholarship_Happenings.htm Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] BFR94 transistor replacement
At 07:19 PM 4/13/2005, TOM MANNING wrote: Richard I saw your reply about the BFW92 replacing the MRF-901 and was wondering if you would know of a replacement for a BFR-94. I am in urgent need of one for my signal generator and maybe one spare. Thanks a lot. 73 de Tom Manning, AF4UG I may have some 901s and 911s here, I'll check around. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Coax run
Hello to the group I have a question concerning the coax run from the duplexer to the repeater. I am also using the GM300's as transmitter and receiver. How long should I cut the cables for? And is it alright to use the 9914 as those jumpers? My repeater frequncey is 443.025 with a positive offset. Will / W4WWM Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
Don't use 9913 in any repeater setting. Either find some RG142 or use hardline of some sort. LMR400 is not even a good choice. This I can affirm to very quickly. The shortest route is what I took for my jumpers. Mathew -Original Message- From: n2odw [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run Hello to the group I have a question concerning the coax run from the duplexer to the repeater. I am also using the GM300's as transmitter and receiver. How long should I cut the cables for? And is it alright to use the 9914 as those jumpers? My repeater frequncey is 443.025 with a positive offset. Will / W4WWM Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs?
T.J. wrote: I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a repeater. I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure before I do or don't do anything. I'm going to swap around the transmit and receive frequencies on a repeater. What I was wondering was, can I just swap the transmit and receive lines between the duplexer and repeater, or does the duplexer have to be retuned for the new reversed transmit and receive frequencies? It depends on the style of the duplexer. If it is created equal between sides, the answer is yes. What make and model is your duplexer? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
Dave VanHorn wrote: At 06:38 PM 4/13/2005, Mathew Quaife wrote: Don't use 9913 in any repeater setting. Would be helpful to state reasons, rather than blunt assertions. It's kind of like software, I don't want to see comments that tell me what the code is doing, I want to know WHY it's being done this way, and not some other way. Maybe you are new to the list. This topic has been discussed in detail (even just recently) and it has been shown time after time that the dissimilar metals (tined copper braid, over an aluminum foil) will eventually cause noise in a duplex environment. Either find some RG142 or use hardline of some sort. I've had RG-213 recommended to me, as well as hardlines. The trend seems to be twoard double braid shields, and away from foil, and twoard stranded copper center conductors, and away from copper plated aluminum, which has problems if you nick the copper. RG-213 is nothing more than RG-8, it's single braid. RG-214 Mil Spec (and yes it has to be mil spec to insure silver plating) is a very good choice for repeater cabling, especially of the transmitter. RG-400 or RG-142 are good choices for lower power or receiver connections. LMR400 is not even a good choice. This I can affirm to very quickly. The shortest route is what I took for my jumpers. I checked with Joe Lanoue, the product manager at Times microwave, he says the following: "On LMR the mechanism for the PIM is actually the contact between the aluminum tape and the inside of the connector body into which it goes. I disagree. It's the tin braid over aluminum foil that is the problem. The silver plated shield on TCOM and lack of aluminum tape inside the connector body negate the situation. " Could very well be. At least Times finally affirms there is a problem with LMR, something that I have claimed for a long time. Search the archives for more on the subject. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 11:42 PM 4/13/2005 -, you wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. --First of all, are you bypassing the deviation limiters in the repeater's xmtr ? If so, either it's not working correctly or you haven't set up your audio levels correctly. What kind of radio is your repeater? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 05:30 PM 4/13/2005 -0700, you wrote: If so, either it's not working correctly or you haven't set up your audio levels correctly. ---Uhhh. make that if NOT :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
Maybe you are new to the list. This topic has been discussed in detail (even just recently) and it has been shown time after time that the dissimilar metals (tined copper braid, over an aluminum foil) will eventually cause noise in a duplex environment. Relatively new yes, but then new people come on all the time. This guy may be newer than me, and searching yahoo's archives is a PITA. At least Times finally affirms there is a problem with LMR, something that I have claimed for a long time. Search the archives for more on the subject. I'm not too surprised by this, it's not that dis-similar from BeldFoil, which was a disaster. Thicker aluminum, but the surface will all be oxidized, and any motion at all will cause scraping, and intermittent contact. If it was in an oxygen free atmosphere, I suspect it would be ok, but who could afford that? Friendly vs unfriendly metals makes a difference too. Gold Vs Tin with resultant fretting of the tin, is something I've recently seen up close. Very nasty. Fortunately, a shot of De-Oxit helps a lot. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio limiting on incoming signals
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, w9mwq [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Matt, is the 6kc a measured figure? Maybe it just seems like 6kc because they modulate your system with a higher AVERAGE deviation. Therefore they will sound louder, but with the same peak deviation of 4.5kc. What is your repeater transmitter? Laryn K8TVZ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
The repeater is made up of a Maggoire HiPro transmitter, GE Mastr Pro ER41 receiver, Cat-1000 contoller. I am taking audio from the high side of the volume control in the ER41. I've turned up the transmitter to 4.5 Khz and the Cat-1000 tx level at right about 4.0 Khz, which passes the PL tones just fine. As for bypassing anything, no that I have not done, all is just as it was. Mathew -Original Message- From: Ken Arck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 7:30 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals At 11:42 PM 4/13/2005 -, you wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. --First of all, are you bypassing the deviation limiters in the repeater's xmtr ? If so, either it's not working correctly or you haven't set up your audio levels correctly. What kind of radio is your repeater? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio limiting on incoming signals
Nope, I'm reading the peaks on my service monitor. I have a soft spoken voice for the most part, almost have to yell to get to 4 Khz, and most general users hits around 4 to 4.5, but the few tops out over 6 sometimes 6.5 Khz. Mathew -Original Message- From: Laryn Lohman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 7:52 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio limiting on incoming signals --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, w9mwq [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Matt, is the 6kc a measured figure? Maybe it just seems like 6kc because they modulate your system with a higher AVERAGE deviation. Therefore they will sound louder, but with the same peak deviation of 4.5kc. What is your repeater transmitter? Laryn K8TVZ Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
w9mwq wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? What exactly are you wanting to limit? The level of the deviation, or the loudness of the user? While one would think a simple circuit would do both, it isn't that simple. Loudness is a perceived thing. I have seen Icom IC-2AT's set for 3.5 kilohertz deviation that sound louder than an Azden 6000 set at 6 kHz. The reason is the amount of clipping/processing ahead of the modulator, and how hard the user is driving that processing. Many Japanese radios have too much Mic gain. These radios tend to be very loud, even to the point of severe distortion. Some of these radios don't have a typical Mic Gain control, my Kenwood 742A is one such radio. My voice is loud, and my habit is to hold the mic close and talk directly into it. I have had to incorporate a mic gain control in most of my radios to tame down the loudness. Again, the deviation was not at fault, it's the amount of processing ahead of it that was the culprit. Limiting the maximum deviation in a repeater is simple, overdrive the mic input of the TX radio (to insure it is into clipping/limiting) and set your deviation adjustment for whatever you want your max. deviation at (like 5 kc) Then, reduce the input to the exciter (with the mic gain control) so a 1:1 deviation is obtained. 1 will equal 1, 2 - 2, 3-3, 4-4, 5 will be a little less than 5 and 6 will likely equal 5. When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Simple audio processing will not control perceived loudness. In this instance, fixing the users radios or more complex audio processing is needed. Fixing the users radios is the best choice, but other more complex solutions are out there. For more on that, I suggest you read this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/audioprocessing.html Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 07:52 PM 4/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: The repeater is made up of a Maggoire HiPro transmitter, GE Mastr Pro ER41 receiver, Cat-1000 contoller. I am taking audio from the high side of the volume control in the ER41. I've turned up the transmitter to 4.5 Khz and the Cat-1000 tx level at right about 4.0 Khz, which passes the PL tones just fine. As for bypassing anything, no that I have not done, all is just as it was. ---If you mean by I've turned up the transmitter to 4.5 Khz that you've adjusted the deviation control, what was your input deviation when you did that? I big mistake a lot of repeater owners make is not setting the deviation level while slightly overdriving the transmitter input to make sure the transmitter is actually limiting the deviation. This would explain how *any* user could force the transmitter to greater than 4.5 Khz, in your case. In other words, simply adjusting the output of the controller to obtain 4.5 Khz deviation ain't gonna do it. Unless you force the transmitter into actual limiting (clipping), you'll never limit deviation correctly. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Just so that the users are not over deviating and causing problems on adjacent channels. I've had all these settings set, it just seems that these few can tend to overdrive the deviation most of the time. Mathew -Original Message- From: Kevin Custer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals w9mwq wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? What exactly are you wanting to limit? The level of the deviation, or the loudness of the user? While one would think a simple circuit would do both, it isn't that simple. Loudness is a perceived thing. I have seen Icom IC-2AT's set for 3.5 kilohertz deviation that sound louder than an Azden 6000 set at 6 kHz. The reason is the amount of clipping/processing ahead of the modulator, and how hard the user is driving that processing. Many Japanese radios have too much Mic gain. These radios tend to be very loud, even to the point of severe distortion. Some of these radios don't have a typical Mic Gain control, my Kenwood 742A is one such radio. My voice is loud, and my habit is to hold the mic close and talk directly into it. I have had to incorporate a mic gain control in most of my radios to tame down the loudness. Again, the deviation was not at fault, it's the amount of processing ahead of it that was the culprit. Limiting the maximum deviation in a repeater is simple, overdrive the mic input of the TX radio (to insure it is into clipping/limiting) and set your deviation adjustment for whatever you want your max. deviation at (like 5 kc) Then, reduce the input to the exciter (with the mic gain control) so a 1:1 deviation is obtained. 1 will equal 1, 2 - 2, 3-3, 4-4, 5 will be a little less than 5 and 6 will likely equal 5. When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Simple audio processing will not control perceived loudness. In this instance, fixing the users radios or more complex audio processing is needed. Fixing the users radios is the best choice, but other more complex solutions are out there. For more on that, I suggest you read this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/audioprocessing.html Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Mathew, This is a common problem, especially when users with multiband/multimode radios use them on FM repeaters, not realizing that they are overdeviating. I guess it's a mixed blessing that some kind and gentle listeners will advise a repeater user that his/her signal is loud and clear when the report should have been overdeviated, distorted, and almost unreadable. Gotta love these kind and gentle folk! My solution is to incorporate a hard clipper that will prevent incoming signals with excessive deviation from being repeated at any more than a fixed limit. When CTCSS encode is used, as it normally is in my systems, I set the tone level to about 500 Hz and limit the repeat audio to about 4.3 kHz. In other words, I deliberately cause overdeviated incoming signals to be distorted so that other users will speak up and complain about that user's signal. I know I could use one of a number of soft AGC circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY w9mwq wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 kHz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users who, no matter what radio they use, always clip well over 6 kHz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Swapping TX and RX freqs
If your duplexer has been properly tuned for your repeater pair, you can exchange the high and low sides without any problems. Do NOT try to retune the duplexer; it's just fine the way it is. If it worked okay in a high-in low-out mode, you can swap sides when you change to low-in high-out operation. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY T.J. wrote: I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a repeater. I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure before I do or don't do anything. I'm going to swap around the transmit and receive frequencies on a repeater. What I was wondering was, can I just swap the transmit and receive lines between the duplexer and repeater, or does the duplexer have to be retuned for the new reversed transmit and receive frequencies? Thanks for and input that can be provided, T.J. --- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
A few things. RG-213 is single shield RG-8 coax so that would not be good. Keep in mind that Times is selling coax. It is not as much the shielding but the fact that the shield and the foil move and cause noise in your system. It has been talked about time and time again here on RP. Good luck, Russ, W3CH. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
Dave VanHorn wrote: I wrote: Maybe you are new to the list. This topic has been discussed in detail (even just recently) and it has been shown time after time that the dissimilar metals (tined copper braid, over an aluminum foil) will eventually cause noise in a duplex environment. Relatively new yes, but then new people come on all the time. I know, I own the list. This guy may be newer than me No, he's a long time subscriber. and searching yahoo's archives is a PITA. I agree, but we have a fix in place for that: http://www.mail-archive.com/repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com/ Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
The main qeustion is not about what type of coax to use but the length of the transmission line between the duplexers and the repeater. Yes I am about a 3 weeks into the group new. Thanks Will Russ Stafford wrote: A few things. RG-213 is single shield RG-8 coax so that would not be good. Keep in mind that Times is selling coax. It is not as much the shielding but the fact that the shield and the foil move and cause noise in your system. It has been talked about time and time again here on RP. Good luck, Russ, W3CH. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Swapping TX and RX freqs
My only caution was that *some* duplexers aren't created equal between sides; therefore switching sides *may* not be possible. Motorola (and others) made a few mobile duplexers that had more rejection on the transmitter side, and simply switching them around wouldn't work satisfactorily. Kevin Eric Lemmon wrote: If your duplexer has been properly tuned for your repeater pair, you can exchange the high and low sides without any problems. Do NOT try to retune the duplexer; it's just fine the way it is. If it worked okay in a high-in low-out mode, you can swap sides when you change to low-in high-out operation. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY T.J. wrote: I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a repeater. I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure before I do or don't do anything. I'm going to swap around the transmit and receive frequencies on a repeater. What I was wondering was, can I just swap the transmit and receive lines between the duplexer and repeater, or does the duplexer have to be retuned for the new reversed transmit and receive frequencies? Thanks for and input that can be provided, T.J. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Coax run
Will Wright wrote: The main question is not about what type of coax to use but the length of the transmission line between the duplexers and the repeater. May I point you to an archived reply on the subject: http://www.mail-archive.com/repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com/msg15725.html Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
I think that is what I was getting to as well, if there was a way to limit the incoming audio, or like it was put, hope the other users lets the louder ones know they are too loud. As for the system, the audio levels are set just right for about 95% of the users. Mathew -Original Message- From: Dave VanHorn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:56 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals I know I could use one of a number of soft AGC circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! Interesting.. Can you share any details? Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Dave VanHorn wrote: I know I could use one of a number of "soft AGC" circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning "average modulation too high" when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! Interesting.. Can you share any details? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Eric Lemmon wrote: I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! The first problem (and maybe most difficult to handle) is evaluating a noisy signal. I guess you could simply build a received quality indicator (squelch) that would only let the circuit work if sufficient quieting were being delivered to obtain meaningful readings, but then how do you deal with overshoot? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 09:27 PM 4/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: I think that is what I was getting to as well, if there was a way to limit the incoming audio, or like it was put, hope the other users lets the louder ones know they are too loud. As for the system, the audio levels are set just right for about 95% of the users. ---I think many are either not listening or not grasping the concept here :-) It is not a matter of perceived deviation nor is it a matter of incoming levels. It is not because some users might be using an Icom and others are using a Kenwood. Since the deviation levels mentioned were actually measured, it is obvious that the transmitter is being to 6 Khz deviation on occasion and the only way this is going to happen (assuming the deviation limiter circuitry is working properly and I see no reason it shouldn't be) is because the level from the controller to the transmitter is not set correctly and probably neither is the deviation control. Period. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs?
Seems like some mobile UHF duplexers have a fixed reject notch inherent and you cannot run backwards without retuning, ie, they have high and low ports. Ssb -Original Message- From: Kevin Custer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:55 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs? T.J. wrote: I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Dave, I should have known that my gambit would raise some eyebrows! In truth, my phrase working on is a euphemism for the vague period between thinking about concepts and experimenting with.hardware. I know all too well that few things are more irritating to repeater users than a function or voice announcement that asserts itself repeatedly for no apparent reason. Accordingly, my design must have enough intelligence to discriminate between real deviation that must be evaluated and false deviation caused by noise. I am hopeful that the collective knowledge available on this list can synthesize a working prototype. Stay tuned... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Dave VanHorn wrote: I know I could use one of a number of soft AGC circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! Interesting.. Can you share any details? Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Ken Arck wrote: It is not a matter of "perceived" deviation nor is it a matter of incoming levels. It is not because some users might be using an Icom and others are using a Kenwood. Since the deviation levels mentioned were actually measured, it is obvious that the transmitter is being to 6 Khz deviation on occasion and the only way this is going to happen (assuming the deviation limiter circuitry is working properly and I see no reason it shouldn't be) is because the level from the controller to the transmitter is not set correctly and probably neither is the deviation control. Period. 6 kilohertz of deviation, in and of itself isn't the problem. He could set the maximum repeater deviation to 5 khz, and the problem would still persist. You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. Simple repeater processing cannot (and shouldn't) make everyone sound the same loudness. Audio processing should, however, provide a means of making sure the bandwidth being occupied stays within the limits of the particular application and its limits. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs?
Just reverse tha cables, no retunuing needed. lance N2HBA - Original Message - From: T.J. To: Builder Repeater Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:37 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Swaping TX and RX freqs? I have a question for the group about flipping frequencies around on a repeater. I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure before I do or don't do anything. I'm going to swap around the transmit and receive frequencies on a repeater. What I was wondering was, can I just swap the transmit and receive linesbetween the duplexer and repeater, or does the duplexer have to be retuned for the new reversed transmit and receive frequencies? Thanks for andinput that can be provided, T.J. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 11:18 PM 4/13/2005 -0400, you wrote: You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. ---No argument about this at all, Kevin. However if I read him correctly, he said these dev amounts were measured on a service monitor. Regardless of whether one signal sounds louder than others or not, the amount of deviation is the amount of deviation :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 10:05 PM 4/13/2005, Eric Lemmon wrote: Dave, I should have known that my gambit would raise some eyebrows! In truth, my phrase working on is a euphemism for the vague period between thinking about concepts and experimenting with.hardware. I know all too well that few things are more irritating to repeater users than a function or voice announcement that asserts itself repeatedly for no apparent reason. Accordingly, my design must have enough intelligence to discriminate between real deviation that must be evaluated and false deviation caused by noise. I am hopeful that the collective knowledge available on this list can synthesize a working prototype. Stay tuned... I could maybe bend a solder iron or microcontroller in that direction. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Ken Arck wrote: At 11:18 PM 4/13/2005 -0400, you wrote: You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. ---No argument about this at all, Kevin. However if I read him correctly, he said these dev amounts were measured on a service monitor. Regardless of whether one signal sounds louder than others or not, the amount of deviation is the amount of deviation :-) I'd bet he has his deviation set to 4.5 kilohertz; where clipping of his repeater transmitter starts to occur. In a Maggiore transmitter (could happen in a Micor or Mastr II as well) harmonic filtering of the clipper can add to the total deviation. Have you ever set up an exciter using a fixed audio tone (say, 1 kHz), where you adjust the deviation control pot to yield 5 kHz deviation. The limiter in most two-way radios is really just a clipper; no fancy compression or AGC or anything. So theoretically whatever tone you stick into the input should be hard-limited at 5 kHz deviation by the clipper. But if you crank up the audio generator some more, say increase it another 6 dB, the deviation will creep up somewhat, maybe to 5.5 kHz. If you really slam it hard, you might see 6 kHz deviation or more. Why? Is the clipper failing to clip? Nope. The problem is caused by the low-pass splatter filter. Here's why... Clipping produces odd-order harmonics. The low-pass filter's job is to scrub off those clipping harmonics to prevent the bandwidth from exceeding limits. Occupied bandwidth in FM is a function of the deviation AND the audio bandwidth (actual modulating frequency). The goal is to keep both properly limited to prevent the signal from getting to wide and splattering onto adjacent channels. The problem comes in when the audio is excessively clipped, which puts more and more energy into the harmonics. The splatter filter attenuates those harmonics -- that's its job. In order for the signal to remain perfectly limited (clipped), all of those harmonics need to be maintained, both in amplitude as well as phase coherence, but obviously we can't do that. As the harmonics are filtered off, the fundamental will overshoot the preset clipping point. And the more harmonic content is being filtered off, the more overshoot there will be. His original complaint doesn't point to a problem in the set-up of the repeater, it does, however, point to users that are severely clipped. The fix isn't in the repeater, but rather in the users radios that are too hot. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote: On our local EDACS PST clear voice audio from the switch receives ALC and minor compression before going to the dispatch consoles or being repeated. How much exactly is the amount of minor comprerssion, 2 to 1 or more? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
I agree with Kevin on this, it's just a few users, and in person, these few people talk very loud, I think they are deaf, I just want the system to be heard all over the band, was the only reason I asked if there was a way to basically shunt it at a maximum, so they are not all over the place. I know they will clip out of the repeater, and that does not bother me, I generally tell them to talk softer, but I am not always around. I've already had some issues, don't need anymore. I can limit the max deviation from the controller, but if I set him so that he is no wider than say 5.5 Khz, then all the rest is down under 2.5 and that is to low. It was just a thought. The one user is going to bring his radio by and see just what it is doing audio wise, it might be set to high to begin with, and with him having a loud voice, might be just over doing it all. Mathew -Original Message- From: Kevin Custer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:08 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals Ken Arck wrote: At 11:18 PM 4/13/2005 -0400, you wrote: You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. ---No argument about this at all, Kevin. However if I read him correctly, he said these dev amounts were measured on a service monitor. Regardless of whether one signal sounds louder than others or not, the amount of deviation is the amount of deviation :-) I'd bet he has his deviation set to 4.5 kilohertz; where clipping of his repeater transmitter starts to occur. In a Maggiore transmitter (could happen in a Micor or Mastr II as well) harmonic filtering of the clipper can add to the total deviation. Have you ever set up an exciter using a fixed audio tone (say, 1 kHz), where you adjust the deviation control pot to yield 5 kHz deviation. The limiter in most two-way radios is really just a clipper; no fancy compression or AGC or anything. So theoretically whatever tone you stick into the input should be hard-limited at 5 kHz deviation by the clipper. But if you crank up the audio generator some more, say increase it another 6 dB, the deviation will creep up somewhat, maybe to 5.5 kHz. If you really slam it hard, you might see 6 kHz deviation or more. Why? Is the clipper failing to clip? Nope. The problem is caused by the low-pass splatter filter. Here's why... Clipping produces odd-order harmonics. The low-pass filter's job is to scrub off those clipping harmonics to prevent the bandwidth from exceeding limits. Occupied bandwidth in FM is a function of the deviation AND the audio bandwidth (actual modulating frequency). The goal is to keep both properly limited to prevent the signal from getting to wide and splattering onto adjacent channels. The problem comes in when the audio is excessively clipped, which puts more and more energy into the harmonics. The splatter filter attenuates those harmonics -- that's its job. In order for the signal to remain perfectly limited (clipped), all of those harmonics need to be maintained, both in amplitude as well as phase coherence, but obviously we can't do that. As the harmonics are filtered off, the fundamental will overshoot the preset clipping point. And the more harmonic content is being filtered off, the more overshoot there will be. His original complaint doesn't point to a problem in the set-up of the repeater, it does, however, point to users that are severely clipped. The fix isn't in the repeater, but rather in the users radios that are too hot. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
