[Repeater-Builder] Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please
I have very cheaply acquired a Motorola N1274A amplifier and would like to use it on 2 meters. My first question, is, since this amplifier was originally designed for 150-174MHz do I need to do any retuning. I assume the answer would be yes. On the board, on the far left and the far right I see two components that appear to be tuning capacitors. They are marked Johanson 9612. (Looking them up on the net confirmed they were tuning caps) Are these what I need to adjust? If so, what is the procedure? Tune for max power? Min SWR? Any assistance would be appreciated. Also, what tool is used for this? I kind of looks like a tiny hex head, but I haven't looked at it under a magnifier yet. Secondly, I was wondering if anyone has a schematic for the amplifier. I looked on the net but turned up nothing. There is one component inside the amplifier that appears what used to be a capacitor. It obviously suffered a catastrophic failure and the magic smoke came out quite rapidly. It is located on the board next to a large 1 ohm power resistor. I obviously need to replace this component and could possibly need to replace others. Again, any schematic or parts list info anyone could share with me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Albert
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting HT600/P200/MT1000
Welcome to repeater builder Bill !not too long ago I ask a simple question about a mobile Motorola amp which we had been using trouble free for 15 years and my reply mails were never about the amp but admonishing me on using it as a repeater amp as it was designed to be a mobile amp only never did get any help on the problem but the radio police sure had their say, oh, we fixed the amp and put it back in repeater service, probably for another ten years or so. need any help on ht600 / mt1000 / ht1000 write off the list. We have a boatload of them, oh yes still in part 90 service since last i looked it was 2009 not 2013 Richard
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
Probably the variable cap in the element (frequency trimmer) went bad on you gotta love MICOR :) twoway_tech wrote: Hello, Hello I have a Micor UHF repeater station on amateur. I have had it tuned and tested perfect since last fall. I sent my elements to Bomar and had them temperature compensated and all that good stuff. After the repeater has set out in the garage all winter, (unheated, in Indiana) I powered it up today to find that the transmitter didn't appear to be working. After some tests I found that the element was off frequency. I tuned back to frequency and tested. It stayed on frequency for about 2 minutes and then drifted off about 40 Kc. From that point on it would not tune up. I installed the crystal in another element and it tuned right up and stayed that way for the hour that I left it running before I had to leave. I am wondering if it was as simple as the element being bad or maybe something else going on. If it is just the element, I wonder why it just decided to take a dump??? Any thoughts? Thanks -Jordan Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
Unfortunately my last couple purchases with Bomar are likely to be my last, so, yes, I've had trouble with them. The one crystal was simply cut to the wrong frequency and the other was unstable. I also questioned the temp comp as no caps were changed out. Back to ICM. So much for trying to save a buck. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: twoway_tech jcar...@k9nzf.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:32 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen? Hello, Hello I have a Micor UHF repeater station on amateur. I have had it tuned and tested perfect since last fall. I sent my elements to Bomar and had them temperature compensated and all that good stuff. After the repeater has set out in the garage all winter, (unheated, in Indiana) I powered it up today to find that the transmitter didn't appear to be working. After some tests I found that the element was off frequency. I tuned back to frequency and tested. It stayed on frequency for about 2 minutes and then drifted off about 40 Kc. From that point on it would not tune up. I installed the crystal in another element and it tuned right up and stayed that way for the hour that I left it running before I had to leave. I am wondering if it was as simple as the element being bad or maybe something else going on. If it is just the element, I wonder why it just decided to take a dump??? Any thoughts? Thanks -Jordan
RE: [Repeater-Builder] BRAMCO Reeds
Blue is for the receive and red is for the transmit. Fred _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:40 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] BRAMCO Reeds I found a couple of BRAMCO reeds in my junque box today, and can't remember if these are VibraSponder or VibraSender compatible reeds. Part number is A01863 (Tone 141.3). Can anyone remember if these -sponders are or -senders?? Thanks! Mark - N9WYS
[Repeater-Builder] Re:Anyone have this happen?
I have no idea why you are using Bomar, other than maybe to save a couple of dollars. I have always used ICM (as well as all 2-way / LMR technicians I have known) ICM guarantees their work for life and replaces crystal/elements. w9gb
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re:Anyone have this happen?
I have a UHF Micor repeater in a Facility that is not heated, Could see my breath last couple times I was there. It has been there for almost 3 years, and for a year before that it was in another non-temperature controlled environment (Just south of Chicago, so winters get cold). I have not had to touch the channel elements since the first time I set them during the initial tune-up. I also have a Mitrek repeater in a somewhat-controlled environment, but not really. Temps get cold in that one too. Its been there for 4+ years. Only had to re-adjust whan I had a radio go bad. The Crystals were both done at ICM. For the few $$$ more, seems worth the while. Tom W9SRV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
At 3/11/2009 05:33, you wrote: Unfortunately my last couple purchases with Bomar are likely to be my last, so, yes, I've had trouble with them. The one crystal was simply cut to the wrong frequency and the other was unstable. I also questioned the temp comp as no caps were changed out. Back to ICM. So much for trying to save a buck. I ordered 5 crystals from Bomar a few months ago. All 5 were perfect. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
I agree. Here at Repeater-Builder. We use Bomar unless otherwise instructed for all our crystals. I *HAVE* opened the cases of some ICOMs / Elements I have sent for temp. comp. and *YES* they do have capacitors changed. Don't get me wrong I HAVE had some temp. comp. elements from Bomar that would not net after a few years. I attribute this to crystal aging and Bomar has ALWAYS took them back and fixed them at NO CHARGE no matter how old they were. I think all crystal mfg's have had troubles with quality at some time or another. I remember about 5 years or so a few people complaining about ICM's crystals. As with any custom product, things can and will happen with production from time to time. This is especially true with crystals due to their organic nature. From my understanding, just because you grind a piece of quartz to a specific shape, doesn't mean it STAYS that way. Quartz lattices 'age' and change with time. Could you imagine trying to guess how much, and in what direction, a plant would grow in one year; then be able to prune it so it would be the exact shape and size you needed it to be one year from now? Quote from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator Due to aging and environmental factors such as temperature and vibration, it is hard to keep even the best quartz oscillators within one part in 10?10 of their nominal frequency without constant adjustment. In my opinion, the occasional failure of an organic substance that require a 'best educated guess' to 'try and get right the first time' are inevitable. At least the crystal manufacturers have come a long way from grinding their own crystals on a piece of emery cloth for their 40M rigs. (You old timers KNOW what I'm talking about!!) Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: n...@no6b.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen? At 3/11/2009 05:33, you wrote: Unfortunately my last couple purchases with Bomar are likely to be my last, so, yes, I've had trouble with them. The one crystal was simply cut to the wrong frequency and the other was unstable. I also questioned the temp comp as no caps were changed out. Back to ICM. So much for trying to save a buck. I ordered 5 crystals from Bomar a few months ago. All 5 were perfect. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re:Anyone have this happen?
Lifetime guarantee went away a while ago. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Greg Beat To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:41 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re:Anyone have this happen? I have no idea why you are using Bomar, other than maybe to save a couple of dollars. I have always used ICM (as well as all 2-way / LMR technicians I have known) ICM guarantees their work for life and replaces crystal/elements. w9gb
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Ethercrash wrote: My repeater group is considering building split-site 6m machine. As an inter-site link, I was thinking of using some sort of VOIP arrangement via the internet. IMHO Doug, KD8B, mentioned a critical point about your VOIP not being interfered with. Remember when network neutrality was voted down? This means that your Internet provider can delay or tamper with your packets. Here is my personal experience. I started having trouble with packet loss on my VOIP traffic on my broadband connection, both on my IRLP node and other VOIP. I did extensive troubleshooting with my PC (Windows XP Home Edition). I substituted another clean PC with Windows XP Pro. I built another PC with just Ubuntu Linux on it. I tested with only one PC directly plugged into the cable modem. In each case I was experiencing about a 10% packet loss with garbled voice and delayed syllables. On a whim, I tried using the original PC, but I disconnected my Comcast High Speed Digital LAN connection and had my PC dial up a modem on my other Internet provider. The connection was at 45.2 Kbps. My packet loss dropped to ZERO! The voices were clear, without garbles and delays. Each time that I have repeated the test, whenever I use the Comcast High Speed Digital, I get 5% to 15% packet loss and when I disconnect the Comcast and use a dial-up modem on my other Internet provider, I get 0% packet loss. Now, I do not use the Comcast Digital Voice VOIP service that Comcast sells, because I cannot use it for the IRLP or my other app. I'm guessing that the customers that do use Comcast Digital Voice do not have the same problem, or they would not still be customers. Of course, if you were using a Comcast Digital Voice competitor like Vonage and had this VOIP type of problem, you would probably discontinue Vonage. I appear to not be the only one experiencing problems: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080129-p2p-users-blast-comcast-in-fcc-proceeding.html I am on waiting lists for DSL and fiber optic service, but they are not available to me yet, even though I am a short distance from the telephone office. I used to use two-way satellite for my IP and now regret ending that service. I had only very brief storm outages compared to my downtimes with Comcast. Also, during power failures, Comcast has been going down here not long after the power does, so your Internet connection may not be available when you need it the most.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
Years ago, I had some issues with ICM crystals. I was explained to me that they were having a problem with the crystal material being too pure. I guess too good is not always a good thing when it comes to crystals that are used in radio frequency applications. 73, Joe, K1ike Scott Zimmerman wrote: I think all crystal mfg's have had troubles with quality at some time or another. I remember about 5 years or so a few people complaining about ICM's crystals.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Mike, I'm curious regarding latency issues, especially if using VoIP for connections like IRLP or remote voice links. Did you experience them when on satellite, or was it a non-issue in your experience? And I assume your connections losses while on the bird were due to rain fade or similar??? Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Mike Naruta AA8K (snip) I am on waiting lists for DSL and fiber optic service, but they are not available to me yet, even though I am a short distance from the telephone office. I used to use two-way satellite for my IP and now regret ending that service. I had only very brief storm outages compared to my downtimes with Comcast. Also, during power failures, Comcast has been going down here not long after the power does, so your Internet connection may not be available when you need it the most.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting HT600/P200/MT1000
Sorry you feel that way. Didn't 'assume' anything, which is why I asked. Maybe my tone was a little harsh, and for that I apologize. I was just trying to stop someone from spending any time doing something that just wasn't smart. See way too much of that stuff happening in the Part 90 world. Now, if the question had been 'Are the HT600/P200/MT1000 narrow capable', the answer would have been a simple, NO. WalterH, a concerned radio system manager --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Craig W Clark craigclar...@... wrote: Don't ya just love it. You ask for some technical advice and immediately the Wanna be radio police assume you are doing something wrong! snip
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Anyone have this happen?
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, twoway_tech jcar...@... wrote: Hello, Hello I have a Micor UHF repeater station on amateur. I have had it tuned and tested perfect since last fall. I sent my elements to Bomar and had them temperature compensated and all that good stuff. After the repeater has set out in the garage all winter, (unheated, in Indiana) I powered it up today to find that the transmitter didn't appear to be working. After some tests I found that the element was off frequency. I tuned back to frequency and tested. It stayed on frequency for about 2 minutes and then drifted off about 40 Kc. From that point on it would not tune up. I installed the crystal in another element and it tuned right up and stayed that way for the hour that I left it running before I had to leave. I am wondering if it was as simple as the element being bad or maybe something else going on. If it is just the element, I wonder why it just decided to take a dump??? Any thoughts? Thanks -Jordan Quartz is an inorganic compound, as it contains no carbon atoms.
[Repeater-Builder] WTB: VHF Duplexers
If anyone has a set of BpBr VHF 2m duplexers for sale, please contact me off list. Chuck / W3YNI -- = Charles L. Mills Westmoreland Co. ARES EC Amateur Radio Callsign W3YNI Email: w3y...@gmail.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
I am a Comcast VOIP customer, the service works good. Comcast is a sleezy company, and I have had experiences with their IP blocking and/or packet interruptions. -- Original Message -- Received: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:36:45 AM PDT From: Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net Remember when network neutrality was voted down? This means that your Internet provider can delay or tamper with your packets. Here is my personal experience. I started having trouble with packet loss on my VOIP traffic on my broadband connection, both on my IRLP node and other VOIP. I did extensive troubleshooting with my PC (Windows XP Home Edition). I substituted another clean PC with Windows XP Pro. I built another PC with just Ubuntu Linux on it. I tested with only one PC directly plugged into the cable modem. In each case I was experiencing about a 10% packet loss with garbled voice and delayed syllables. On a whim, I tried using the original PC, but I disconnected my Comcast High Speed Digital LAN connection and had my PC dial up a modem on my other Internet provider. The connection was at 45.2 Kbps. My packet loss dropped to ZERO! The voices were clear, without garbles and delays. Each time that I have repeated the test, whenever I use the Comcast High Speed Digital, I get 5% to 15% packet loss and when I disconnect the Comcast and use a dial-up modem on my other Internet provider, I get 0% packet loss. Now, I do not use the Comcast Digital Voice VOIP service that Comcast sells, because I cannot use it for the IRLP or my other app. I'm guessing that the customers that do use Comcast Digital Voice do not have the same problem, or they would not still be customers. Of course, if you were using a Comcast Digital Voice competitor like Vonage and had this VOIP type of problem, you would probably discontinue Vonage. I appear to not be the only one experiencing problems: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080129-p2p-users-blast-comcast-in-fcc-proceeding.html I am on waiting lists for DSL and fiber optic service, but they are not available to me yet, even though I am a short distance from the telephone office. I used to use two-way satellite for my IP and now regret ending that service. I had only very brief storm outages compared to my downtimes with Comcast. Also, during power failures, Comcast has been going down here not long after the power does, so your Internet connection may not be available when you need it the most.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
I've done IRLP over a couple of different types of satellite connections (and as an official tech support volunteer, I must add that IRLP doesn't recommend this). It works. Latency never really seemed to be all that bad. We listened to it, and yeah... our voice into the rig was ahead of the other side coming out on a land-line based node, but it was possible to communicate just fine. The bigger problem seems to be packet loss. Sometimes words would get dropped, even with IRLP's relatively new buffers that were put in place not too long back (relatively... I've been doing IRLP now for almost 10 years?). But in-between those dropouts, everything's fine. Switching to a lower CODEC for the node to node connection, (GSM, roughly 12 Kb/S) or using a GSM channel on a Reflector if multiple nodes are participating in some event, helps sometimes. I could get the owner of one of these systems to call you on your local IRLP node, if you want to hear it. He could also describe who's satellite service he's using. Some node owners on the IRLP mailing list a while back reported good luck with WildBlue, haven't heard that much good about StarBand or DirectTV's offering... and of course, Hughes dedicated service ($$$) also works fine. This is all kinda water under the bridge to me -- I'm more interested in finding out if Icom's D-STAR Gateways can successfully operate (they're much more latency sensitive than IRLP or anything that's just an audio stream) on a satellite link. Don't have all the stuff here I'd need to test it and find out, though! To buy an extra repeater, controller, and gateway just for a test isn't in the cards. (GRIN) Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:56 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Mike, I'm curious regarding latency issues, especially if using VoIP for connections like IRLP or remote voice links. Did you experience them when on satellite, or was it a non-issue in your experience? And I assume your connections losses while on the bird were due to rain fade or similar??? Mark - N9WYS
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Your experience with Comcast VoIP may vary widely, depending on your location and time of day. In Oregon, I had Comcast VoIP, which I was assured was backed up for power outages. Sure enough, power went out in a windstorm, and the little UPS included with my modem kept it running, but the network itself was down. When the power came back on, so did the network. My neighbors with Verizon POTS service never lost it. Here in Utah, I work out of a home office, and was experiencing routine outages of both VoIP and internet, usually lasting 20-30 minutes, between midnight and 1am, when I needed both for work. This would happen two or three times a week. It was clearly some kind of routine maintenance, but the Comcast customer service reps (when I reached them on my cellphone) had nothing more useful than their scripts, and of course, Have you rebooted your router? Finally, they went down for 30 hours, including most of two business days, this time including phone, internet and TV. They were so arrogant about it when I called that I cancelled all three. I got DTV converter boxes and do without cable TV, got a copper-pair-based landline phone, and my new fiber-optic internet service rocks - it actually delivers its advertised speeds. Comcast never came close to achieving its ad claims. Comcast internet access is a flaky toy, in my experience. The company has a complete lack of uptime ethic. If you need to be able to count on your repeater, don't link sites through Comcast. If Comcast is intentionally sabotaging Vonage calls made using its system, it would be completely consistent with my expectations. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP I am a Comcast VOIP customer, the service works good. Comcast is a sleezy company, and I have had experiences with their IP blocking and/or packet interruptions.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Unfortunately, this is exactly what Comcast was hoping -- the customer changed service. They don't want customers who keep making service calls requiring repeated tech support. These calls cost them money that they don't want to spend. I'll bet that they wasted no time in processing the termination of service. I'll further guess that the response to the termination was far faster than getting someone to come out for a trouble call. I realize it's aggravating, and I understand the frustration, but if people kept hounding companies like this they (the companies) just might get things fixed. The same goes for cellular phone service. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - Finally, they went down for 30 hours, including most of two business days, this time including phone, internet and TV. They were so arrogant about it when I called that I cancelled all three. I got DTV converter boxes and do without cable TV, got a copper-pair-based landline phone, and my new fiber-optic internet service rocks - it actually delivers its advertised speeds. Comcast never came close to achieving its ad claims. Comcast internet access is a flaky toy, in my experience. The company has a complete lack of uptime ethic. If you need to be able to count on your repeater, don't link sites through Comcast.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
For those who need to measure their upload / download speed of their ISP, here are a couple of useful links to measure it: http://reviews.cnet.com/internet-speed-test/ http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/ I like the 2nd one a lot better. For those you haven't experienced this yet, have fun ! 73, Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Your experience with Comcast VoIP may vary widely, depending on your location and time of day. In Oregon, I had Comcast VoIP, which I was assured was backed up for power outages. Sure enough, power went out in a windstorm, and the little UPS included with my modem kept it running, but the network itself was down. When the power came back on, so did the network. My neighbors with Verizon POTS service never lost it. Here in Utah, I work out of a home office, and was experiencing routine outages of both VoIP and internet, usually lasting 20-30 minutes, between midnight and 1am, when I needed both for work. This would happen two or three times a week. It was clearly some kind of routine maintenance, but the Comcast customer service reps (when I reached them on my cellphone) had nothing more useful than their scripts, and of course, Have you rebooted your router? Finally, they went down for 30 hours, including most of two business days, this time including phone, internet and TV. They were so arrogant about it when I called that I cancelled all three. I got DTV converter boxes and do without cable TV, got a copper-pair-based landline phone, and my new fiber-optic internet service rocks - it actually delivers its advertised speeds. Comcast never came close to achieving its ad claims. Comcast internet access is a flaky toy, in my experience. The company has a complete lack of uptime ethic. If you need to be able to count on your repeater, don't link sites through Comcast. If Comcast is intentionally sabotaging Vonage calls made using its system, it would be completely consistent with my expectations. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP I am a Comcast VOIP customer, the service works good. Comcast is a sleezy company, and I have had experiences with their IP blocking and/or packet interruptions.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Thanks Nate. I'm not running a node or anything as of yet... More like researching my options for linking and so forth for the future. Right now, I'm trying to bring two remote RX sites to a comparator for a three-RX site system. My problem is, I have been waiting nearly TWO YEARS for the county to get their microwave backbone online - so I can have two E+M lines for my remote sites. (The county is gracious enough to give me space at their tower AND provide the repeater equipment, so beggars can't be choosers...) The problem is nobody at the county seems to know how to program the MainStreet equipment that is interfaced into their RF microwave. Rather than pull more of my hair out, I am investigating other avenues... and I know that T-1 lines are cost prohibitive. (Plus, there is no Telco service to the tower site.) There is, however, Internet service via a Canopy system... I'm hoping a friend I have can program the MainStreet ends for me, but getting him away from his employer long enough to do this is my latest problem to resolve... Ah, repeaters. sigh Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:45 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP I've done IRLP over a couple of different types of satellite connections (and as an official tech support volunteer, I must add that IRLP doesn't recommend this). It works. Latency never really seemed to be all that bad. We listened to it, and yeah... our voice into the rig was ahead of the other side coming out on a land-line based node, but it was possible to communicate just fine. The bigger problem seems to be packet loss. Sometimes words would get dropped, even with IRLP's relatively new buffers that were put in place not too long back (relatively... I've been doing IRLP now for almost 10 years?). But in-between those dropouts, everything's fine. Switching to a lower CODEC for the node to node connection, (GSM, roughly 12 Kb/S) or using a GSM channel on a Reflector if multiple nodes are participating in some event, helps sometimes. I could get the owner of one of these systems to call you on your local IRLP node, if you want to hear it. He could also describe who's satellite service he's using. Some node owners on the IRLP mailing list a while back reported good luck with WildBlue, haven't heard that much good about StarBand or DirectTV's offering... and of course, Hughes dedicated service ($$$) also works fine. This is all kinda water under the bridge to me -- I'm more interested in finding out if Icom's D-STAR Gateways can successfully operate (they're much more latency sensitive than IRLP or anything that's just an audio stream) on a satellite link. Don't have all the stuff here I'd need to test it and find out, though! To buy an extra repeater, controller, and gateway just for a test isn't in the cards. (GRIN) Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:56 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Mike, I'm curious regarding latency issues, especially if using VoIP for connections like IRLP or remote voice links. Did you experience them when on satellite, or was it a non-issue in your experience? And I assume your connections losses while on the bird were due to rain fade or similar??? Mark - N9WYS Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Anyone have this happen?
At least the crystal manufacturers have come a long way from grinding their own crystals on a piece of emery cloth for their 40M rigs. And, if you're really picky, fine tune them with Ajax on the sink counter. Then pick them up a little carelessly and break them in half! Oh yes, the good old days! Tom DGN --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Scott Zimmerman n3...@... wrote: I agree. Here at Repeater-Builder. We use Bomar unless otherwise instructed for all our crystals. I *HAVE* opened the cases of some ICOMs / Elements I have sent for temp. comp. and *YES* they do have capacitors changed. Don't get me wrong I HAVE had some temp. comp. elements from Bomar that would not net after a few years. I attribute this to crystal aging and Bomar has ALWAYS took them back and fixed them at NO CHARGE no matter how old they were. I think all crystal mfg's have had troubles with quality at some time or another. I remember about 5 years or so a few people complaining about ICM's crystals. As with any custom product, things can and will happen with production from time to time. This is especially true with crystals due to their organic nature. From my understanding, just because you grind a piece of quartz to a specific shape, doesn't mean it STAYS that way. Quartz lattices 'age' and change with time. Could you imagine trying to guess how much, and in what direction, a plant would grow in one year; then be able to prune it so it would be the exact shape and size you needed it to be one year from now? Quote from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator Due to aging and environmental factors such as temperature and vibration, it is hard to keep even the best quartz oscillators within one part in 10?10 of their nominal frequency without constant adjustment. In my opinion, the occasional failure of an organic substance that require a 'best educated guess' to 'try and get right the first time' are inevitable. At least the crystal manufacturers have come a long way from grinding their own crystals on a piece of emery cloth for their 40M rigs. (You old timers KNOW what I'm talking about!!) Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: n...@... To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen? At 3/11/2009 05:33, you wrote: Unfortunately my last couple purchases with Bomar are likely to be my last, so, yes, I've had trouble with them. The one crystal was simply cut to the wrong frequency and the other was unstable. I also questioned the temp comp as no caps were changed out. Back to ICM. So much for trying to save a buck. I ordered 5 crystals from Bomar a few months ago. All 5 were perfect. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
One of Comcast's independent techs told me their system runs wide-open to the speed-test sites to ensure good results. I don't know if he was being honest, but I never got the same speeds in normal use that I did with the test sites! - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP For those who need to measure their upload / download speed of their ISP, here are a couple of useful links to measure it: http://reviews.cnet.com/internet-speed-test/ http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/ I like the 2nd one a lot better. For those you haven't experienced this yet, have fun ! 73, Don, KD9PT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
Scott, You make some very good points. However, one should not assume that the crystal house did nothing to the channel element, based solely upon the observation that no capacitors or resistors seemed to have been changed, It is possible, albeit unlikely, that the components just happened to be correct with the new crystal- and this is more likely when the crystal house is putting a new crystal in a channel element that they have changed and compensated once before. If the channel element or ICOM was a factory original item, it is more likely that some components will be changed. Crystal making is not the exact science that many folks believe it to be. Many moons ago, I was notified of a delay in making a crystal for a Motorola station, because the technician found that the crystal was not quite rubbery enough to meet their specification, and they wanted to make another. Even though the company offered to expedite the delivery at no charge, I told them to take the time to do it right. I was very pleased to see that I received a credit of 50% for my patience. The term rubberiness is explained in this article: www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/temperature-compensation.html 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Zimmerman Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:50 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen? I agree. Here at Repeater-Builder. We use Bomar unless otherwise instructed for all our crystals. I *HAVE* opened the cases of some ICOMs / Elements I have sent for temp. comp. and *YES* they do have capacitors changed. Don't get me wrong I HAVE had some temp. comp. elements from Bomar that would not net after a few years. I attribute this to crystal aging and Bomar has ALWAYS took them back and fixed them at NO CHARGE no matter how old they were. I think all crystal mfg's have had troubles with quality at some time or another. I remember about 5 years or so a few people complaining about ICM's crystals. As with any custom product, things can and will happen with production from time to time. This is especially true with crystals due to their organic nature. From my understanding, just because you grind a piece of quartz to a specific shape, doesn't mean it STAYS that way. Quartz lattices 'age' and change with time. Could you imagine trying to guess how much, and in what direction, a plant would grow in one year; then be able to prune it so it would be the exact shape and size you needed it to be one year from now? Quote from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator Due to aging and environmental factors such as temperature and vibration, it is hard to keep even the best quartz oscillators within one part in 10?10 of their nominal frequency without constant adjustment. In my opinion, the occasional failure of an organic substance that require a 'best educated guess' to 'try and get right the first time' are inevitable. At least the crystal manufacturers have come a long way from grinding their own crystals on a piece of emery cloth for their 40M rigs. (You old timers KNOW what I'm talking about!!) Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: n...@no6b.com mailto:no6b%40no6b.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen? At 3/11/2009 05:33, you wrote: Unfortunately my last couple purchases with Bomar are likely to be my last, so, yes, I've had trouble with them. The one crystal was simply cut to the wrong frequency and the other was unstable. I also questioned the temp comp as no caps were changed out. Back to ICM. So much for trying to save a buck. I ordered 5 crystals from Bomar a few months ago. All 5 were perfect. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Hi Mark, I was using Earthlink/Direc two-way satellite. There is the inherent latency. If you are a gamer, it might bother you. I didn't mind it. My fade margin was on the low edge. At my latitude, the angle is fairly low and there was a tree at a distance that was partially obscuring. I would lose signal during an unusually heavy rain storm, and twice a year briefly during the sun crossing. Since I was at work at Noon, that didn't bother me. The downside was that the control software had to run on Windows on a PC. When I upgraded the PC from 98 to XP, Internet Connection Sharing no longer supported Netbeui and my Windows 98 PCs couldn't use the Internet. Comcast hooked me with their low-price initial come-on. I dropped Earthlink/Direc and gave away the dish and transceiver. It was a few months after that that we had the big power failure in the NorthEast. I waited a while and then started my generator. I brought up my PCs and started to watch the TV and pick up my e-mail. Not long after, Comcast cable TV and High-Speed Internet disappeared and didn't come back until days later when the power was restored. If I still had the satellite, I would have had Internet. Glad that I didn't have their reliable home phone service Comcast Digital Voice. Our POTS kept working. I got to see the local C.O. battery room once. A lot of chemical energy in there. They even started up their TURBINE backup generator for us. That was a cool sound. We've since had another long power failure and a brownout and the Comcast services stopped a short while after power did. It was early 2008 that the dropouts started on my VOIP app. I spent a lot of time chasing my Windows problem down before I tried my dial-up Internet provider. It was frustrating. I could start a couple of downloads going at the same time and there was no effect on the VOIP garble. Now it makes sense to me. Note: Comcast is not the only Internet provider that may tamper with your packets; read the fine print in your terms and conditions. Mark wrote: Mike, I'm curious regarding latency issues, especially if using VoIP for connections like IRLP or remote voice links. Did you experience them when on satellite, or was it a non-issue in your experience? And I assume your connections losses while on the bird were due to rain fade or similar??? Mark - N9WYS
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Paul Plack wrote: One of Comcast's independent techs told me their system runs wide-open to the speed-test sites to ensure good results. I don't know if he was being honest, but I never got the same speeds in normal use that I did with the test sites! As an engineer of a CATV Internet provider, maybe I can shed some light. Our basic speed is 2M down, and we have optional packages for 4M and 6M. When we do a speed test, it shows the actual speed transferred by our equipment and the servers on the other end. Unfortunately, many of the servers providing services like Yahoo, eBay, MSN, etc. can be loaded down and even with our somewhat humble basic 2M speed we see the effects of what's happening on the other end. These effects get worse to the user as their delivered speed is increased. Folks get 'used to' seeing some sites fly, then believe there is a 'problem' when all of the places they visit don't respond with the same snappiness. I realize some of the bigger providers have their share of delivery difficulties. Some of them over-sell their bandwidth to a degree that never allows for their customers to pull what they are provisioned, but if you are able to pull good speeds to the test sites, then the ability is there to have the same performance from any site. The Internet is a highway of robust and fragile networks that are interconnected and like a chain - is only as strong as the weakest link. Now that big pipe Internet connections to common folks like us are becoming more commonplace, we are seeing the fragile-ness of the parts that cannot keep up. I sit on a LAN with 25 synchronous MB to the Internet. My provider buys 1000 MB in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. With 2 gigs of Internet, the provider can really see the bottlenecks. You didn't even know they existed when you were on dial-up I'm not saying Comcast doesn't have their problems, but with multi-meg Internet connections available to the average consumer, you are going to see the weaker links; and it doesn't matter who your provider is. Kevin Custer
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone have this happen?
Eric, I don't believe you understood what Scott said. We have sent many many elements in for Temperature Compensation, and indeed see components changed. While we certainly don't open them all to check, I cannot recall of one instance of opening one up that was sent in that didn't have something obviously changed. Bomar uses these pretty blue caps and somewhat oddly colored thermistors that are easily spotted. Kevin Scott, one should not assume that the crystal house did nothing to the channel element, based solely upon the observation that no capacitors or resistors seemed to have been changed * Scott wrote: I *HAVE* opened the cases of some ICOMs / Elements I have sent for temp. comp. and *YES* they do have capacitors changed.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please
Albert, Yes, you must tune the amplifier for the narrow range of frequencies that you will be using. The N1274A amplifier was used with MT500 and MX300 Converta-Com Consoles to boost the output of the Handie-Talkie in mobile service. The unit has a sensor to detect the transmit signal and switch the amplifier into the circuit, The manual which covers this specific amplifier is 6881020C90- which, unfortunately, is NLA from Motorola Parts. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Albert Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:04 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please I have very cheaply acquired a Motorola N1274A amplifier and would like to use it on 2 meters. My first question, is, since this amplifier was originally designed for 150-174MHz do I need to do any retuning. I assume the answer would be yes. On the board, on the far left and the far right I see two components that appear to be tuning capacitors. They are marked Johanson 9612. (Looking them up on the net confirmed they were tuning caps) Are these what I need to adjust? If so, what is the procedure? Tune for max power? Min SWR? Any assistance would be appreciated. Also, what tool is used for this? I kind of looks like a tiny hex head, but I haven't looked at it under a magnifier yet. Secondly, I was wondering if anyone has a schematic for the amplifier. I looked on the net but turned up nothing. There is one component inside the amplifier that appears what used to be a capacitor. It obviously suffered a catastrophic failure and the magic smoke came out quite rapidly. It is located on the board next to a large 1 ohm power resistor. I obviously need to replace this component and could possibly need to replace others. Again, any schematic or parts list info anyone could share with me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Albert
[Repeater-Builder] Re:Anyone have this happen?
Well! That turned into an interesting thread! This is the first problem that I have ever had with a crystal from Bomar. And I am pretty sure that it is not a crystal problem anyway. It is weird that the element just went haywire, but after-all, the radio is only 30 years old, right? I will test some more and see what happens. If I start having problems I may order new ones from somewhere else and try them out. But I have always liked Bomar. As always, thanks for all the info. -Jordan --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Greg Beat gregory.b...@... wrote: I have no idea why you are using Bomar, other than maybe to save a couple of dollars. I have always used ICM (as well as all 2-way / LMR technicians I have known) ICM guarantees their work for life and replaces crystal/elements. w9gb
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Kevin, thanks for your insight. Comcast must cap speeds below what it advertises intentionally, because even distant speed test servers would run higher speeds than what I could get to fellow Comcast users in the same part of town. My fiber-optic residential connection is the first one I've had that's fast enough to truly reveal the limits of the net as a whole. It's asymetrical service, but the opposite of most. I'm capped at 15 megabit/second download, but upload is currently uncapped, and typically runs 50 - 65 megabits/second on a local connection. I may actually be bumping up against the router's practical limits at times. The last time I checked speed, I was seeing 22 megabits/second into San Francisco, and about 18 into Portland, in the upload direction. I recently used it for a Skype call to Chile, spent about a half-hour on the call, and had zero dropped packets with a round-trip time of 67 ms. Not too shabby. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Paul Plack wrote: One of Comcast's independent techs told me their system runs wide-open to the speed-test sites to ensure good results. I don't know if he was being honest, but I never got the same speeds in normal use that I did with the test sites! As an engineer of a CATV Internet provider, maybe I can shed some light. Our basic speed is 2M down, and we have optional packages for 4M and 6M. When we do a speed test, it shows the actual speed transferred by our equipment and the servers on the other end. Unfortunately, many of the servers providing services like Yahoo, eBay, MSN, etc. can be loaded down and even with our somewhat humble basic 2M speed we see the effects of what's happening on the other end. These effects get worse to the user as their delivered speed is increased. Folks get 'used to' seeing some sites fly, then believe there is a 'problem' when all of the places they visit don't respond with the same snappiness. I realize some of the bigger providers have their share of delivery difficulties. Some of them over-sell their bandwidth to a degree that never allows for their customers to pull what they are provisioned, but if you are able to pull good speeds to the test sites, then the ability is there to have the same performance from any site. The Internet is a highway of robust and fragile networks that are interconnected and like a chain - is only as strong as the weakest link. Now that big pipe Internet connections to common folks like us are becoming more commonplace, we are seeing the fragile-ness of the parts that cannot keep up. I sit on a LAN with 25 synchronous MB to the Internet. My provider buys 1000 MB in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. With 2 gigs of Internet, the provider can really see the bottlenecks. You didn't even know they existed when you were on dial-up I'm not saying Comcast doesn't have their problems, but with multi-meg Internet connections available to the average consumer, you are going to see the weaker links; and it doesn't matter who your provider is. Kevin Custer
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Paul Plack wrote: Kevin, thanks for your insight. Comcast must cap speeds below what it advertises intentionally, because even distant speed test servers would run higher speeds than what I could get to fellow Comcast users in the same part of town. WAN traffic is indeed limited so the overhead remains small. Most companies charge extra to prioritize route WAN traffic. Kevin
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting HT600/P200/MT1000
To Richard and Howard and the other gentleman who responded: Firstly, Howard, I don't want to sound patronizing but I accept your apology. I understand your response and appreciate the context in which it was given. But, seriously, the radios were NOT to be used in part 90 service but rather part 97 in which the FCC graciously allows us to experiment within a broader scope of limitations than the commercial setrivce. Also Richard, I do lament the predicament you found yourself in. My experience with RB here has been cordial. I asked some questions about a very tenative subject -- the format and content of HT600/MT1000 code plugs -- and recieved a wealth of informaton in return. I was also informally invited to publish the results on RB subject to the editor's approval. I could have been slammed harshly because perhaps the Moto lawyers would understandably like to squelch the propagation of such data. (Parenthetically, being a software developer, I am familiar with intellectual property laws and, while illegally copying and distributing of software or giving away company secrets is not permitted, one *can* reverse engineer a product if one is extemely careful and has no direct knowledge of the internals. This was done many years ago when Dr DOS was created as a mimic of MS-DOS. Now, I am sure that one cannot play fast and loose with this, but it's less prone to scrutiny than blatant piracy. Hence, anything I do offer to RB will pass the smell test of the site owner and I will abide is decision.) Like your situation, I wanted to see how much I could push the envelope on these older radios and do not have the wealth of commercial two-way skills that many here have. I suspect that I would find out what Howard advised me of right enough, but the best way to learn is to bust your knuckles trying to do something. In any event, Howard, I do appreciate your input and would like to take the opportunity some time to bounce my results off you if you do not mind. Respectfully, Bill, k6whp --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, The Marlins marl...@... wrote: ..but the radio police sure had their say..
