Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
I used one twisted pair in un-shielded CAT 5 in my Fire Dept to connect a radio to an audio amplifier system. The run was over 100 ft. The audio was tapped at the internal speaker of the radio at a comfortable listening level. The other end of the wire went into the aux audio input of a audio amplifier, padded down with a 10:1 resistor voltage divider at the input of the amp. I used 1K in series and 100 ohm resistor to ground to give me 1/10th the original level to the input of the amp. The voltage divider will also reduce any common mode or differential mode induced noise on the wire by a factor of 10. Being twisted pair that noise should be already low. The amp is feeding 5 speakers all over the building. The run from the amp to the speakers is all using the 70V output of the amp, and there is 70V transformers at each speaker, all Radio Shack vintage. No Hum or RFI in this system that way, and very cheap setup. I believe the audio transformers are blocking any RFI. N3FLR - Frank On 2/27/2010 11:16 PM, larynl2 wrote: Shielding is not usually necessary for line level balanced pair audio on CAT 5 or any good twisted pair. CAT 5 is often used in broadcast audio work. Laryn K8TVZ --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, skipp025skipp...@... wrote: Joek1ike_mail@ wrote: I wonder if CAT 6 would be better than CAT5 due to the difference in twist? Joe A number of different items in the specifications would be worth examining... like how much C per foot and I don't believe CAT network cables are shielded. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
Yeah, same as 220. There's not really a need for an amateur rig anyway. There are so many commercial rigs that go there easily, and you would never be able to buy an amateur rig with the performance of a Spectra! On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:35 PM, JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net wrote: Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikew...@hotmail.com mikewm9v%40hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them . -- James Adkins, KB0NHX Vice-President -- Nixa Amateur Radio Club, Inc. (KC0LUN) www.nixahams.net Southern Missouri Assistant Frequency Coordinator - Missouri Repeater Council www.missourirepeater.org The Nixa Amateur Radio Club - There is no charge for awesomeness! (Well, only $1.00 per month)
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
My favorite is direct burial + shielded cat cable. I've got some here that I've been using for controller to device hookups. As well as the run from the house to the shed. Shielded with 100% foil and a joke of a braid. It is flooded with goo to keep the moisture out as well. Nice stuff for the $$ Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John J. Riddell Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:49 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs Skipp, yes you can get shielded Cat 5. I've used it a few times when running near AC fixtures etc. 73 John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: skipp025 skipp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:43 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: I wonder if CAT 6 would be better than CAT5 due to the difference in twist? Joe A number of different items in the specifications would be worth examining... like how much C per foot and I don't believe CAT network cables are shielded. s. Oz, in DFW wrote: Make sure you use twisted pair. Station wire like that use to wire houses is often not twisted. Ethernet cable is good and has a high twist pitch - better for this application. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2705 - Release Date: 02/26/10 19:39:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
Underground gel filled , several types one of them being as you describe foil lined and it is cheap and extremly resistant to the egress of time and rf To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: demo...@rollanet.org Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:47:23 -0600 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs My favorite is direct burial + shielded cat cable. I've got some here that I've been using for controller to device hookups. As well as the run from the house to the shed. Shielded with 100% foil and a joke of a braid. It is flooded with goo to keep the moisture out as well. Nice stuff for the $$ Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John J. Riddell Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:49 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs Skipp, yes you can get shielded Cat 5. I've used it a few times when running near AC fixtures etc. 73 John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: skipp025 skipp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:43 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: I wonder if CAT 6 would be better than CAT5 due to the difference in twist? Joe A number of different items in the specifications would be worth examining... like how much C per foot and I don't believe CAT network cables are shielded. s. Oz, in DFW wrote: Make sure you use twisted pair. Station wire like that use to wire houses is often not twisted. Ethernet cable is good and has a high twist pitch - better for this application. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2705 - Release Date: 02/26/10 19:39:00 _ View photos of singles in your area! Browse profiles for FREE http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] LOOONG audio runs
On 2/27/2010 4:53 PM, Joe wrote: Oz, in DFW wrote: Make sure you use twisted pair. Station wire like that use to wire houses is often not twisted. Ethernet cable is good and has a high twist pitch - better for this application. I wonder if CAT 6 would be better than CAT5 due to the difference in twist? Joe I'm not sure it will matter much. Mostly I think a tight twist will provide better isolation at the higher frequencies. Cross connect and some multipair telephone cable can have as little as two twists per foot. This is an appreciable portion of a wavelength at UHF and is likely to offer lower common mode value. The twist rates of CAT5 and CAT6 are high enough that I suspect they are substantially similar in this application. Oz, in DFW -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
True, but where is the hack for the front panel programmable Spectra? It's nice to not be limited to preprogrammed channels. Joe M. James Adkins wrote: Yeah, same as 220. There's not really a need for an amateur rig anyway. There are so many commercial rigs that go there easily, and you would never be able to buy an amateur rig with the performance of a Spectra! On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:35 PM, JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmac...@usa.net wrote: Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikew...@hotmail.com mailto:mikewm9v%40hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them . -- James Adkins, KB0NHX Vice-President -- Nixa Amateur Radio Club, Inc. (KC0LUN) www.nixahams.net http://www.nixahams.net Southern Missouri Assistant Frequency Coordinator - Missouri Repeater Council www.missourirepeater.org http://www.missourirepeater.org The Nixa Amateur Radio Club - There is no charge for awesomeness! (Well, only $1.00 per month) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 02/28/10 02:34:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
I used to be like that, but now that I've gone commercial, I don't find that's an issue. I would rather have the improved performance. Plus, you can program in simplex channels, etc. If you can fill up 128 memory channels on 900 MHz in your area, that's great. Around here, we have 4 repeaters with 2 more proposed and only one other machine in the state. I could see that travelling a lot would be a reason to have front panel programmable radios, but I don't travel much out of state. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:13 AM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: True, but where is the hack for the front panel programmable Spectra? It's nice to not be limited to preprogrammed channels. Joe M. James Adkins wrote: Yeah, same as 220. There's not really a need for an amateur rig anyway. There are so many commercial rigs that go there easily, and you would never be able to buy an amateur rig with the performance of a Spectra! On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:35 PM, JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.netjmackey%40usa.net mailto:jmac...@usa.net jmackey%40usa.net wrote: Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikew...@hotmail.com mikewm9v%40hotmail.com mailto:mikewm9v%40hotmail.com mikewm9v%2540hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%2540yahoogroups.com SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them . -- James Adkins, KB0NHX Vice-President -- Nixa Amateur Radio Club, Inc. (KC0LUN) www.nixahams.net http://www.nixahams.net Southern Missouri Assistant Frequency Coordinator - Missouri Repeater Council www.missourirepeater.org http://www.missourirepeater.org The Nixa Amateur Radio Club - There is no charge for awesomeness! (Well, only $1.00 per month) -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 02/28/10 02:34:00 -- James Adkins, KB0NHX Vice-President -- Nixa Amateur Radio Club, Inc. (KC0LUN) www.nixahams.net Southern Missouri Assistant Frequency Coordinator - Missouri Repeater Council www.missourirepeater.org The Nixa Amateur Radio Club - There is no charge for awesomeness! (Well, only $1.00 per month)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, JOHN MACKEY wrote: Using balanced audio in a broadcast environment, I have on rare occasions experienced issues with cross-talk between long runs of un-shielded balanced audio lines. (inductive pickup??) I always wondered if the wires were truly balanced when that happened. That's probably NEXT or FEXT, which is near-end cross-talk and far-end. Bell documented this stuff somewhere; I've read the book. There's a reason why they don't run the T1 lines with the voice lines or why they don't stuff the entire binder full of T1s. Of course, that same book explained how to use the cable pairs as resistors to heat up the cable, which has been done a few times in NYC, resulting in dead pairs in the cable due to too much power/heating on a given pair. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
I rum spectras on V/U/900 and love em. I just bought one for P25. As for programming, once you get a codeplug set for your area and the areas you travel to it is easy to use. The zone features are nice. 1 or 2 zones per area and off you go. I also run a regular dual band ham radio for the odd stuff but I seldom use them as the performance of the spectras far out does the ham stuff. As for programming you could keep a rib and cable connevted to the radio and a serial plug somewhere easy to get to for reprogramming. I am migrating to the MCS 2000 series lately because our area is rebanding 800 and I have to change that radio and I like them all to match, but I like the spectras better. Talk about clear audio! Just my thoughts. For what it's worth YMMV. Rob Sent by Good Messaging (www.good.com) -Original Message- From: James Adkins [mailto:adkins.ja...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:21 AM Eastern Standard Time To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject:Re: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio I used to be like that, but now that I've gone commercial, I don't find that's an issue. I would rather have the improved performance. Plus, you can program in simplex channels, etc. If you can fill up 128 memory channels on 900 MHz in your area, that's great. Around here, we have 4 repeaters with 2 more proposed and only one other machine in the state. I could see that travelling a lot would be a reason to have front panel programmable radios, but I don't travel much out of state. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:13 AM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: True, but where is the hack for the front panel programmable Spectra? It's nice to not be limited to preprogrammed channels. Joe M. James Adkins wrote: Yeah, same as 220. There's not really a need for an amateur rig anyway. There are so many commercial rigs that go there easily, and you would never be able to buy an amateur rig with the performance of a Spectra! On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:35 PM, JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.netjmackey%40usa.net mailto:jmac...@usa.net jmackey%40usa.net wrote: Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikew...@hotmail.com mikewm9v%40hotmail.com mailto:mikewm9v%40hotmail.com mikewm9v%2540hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%2540yahoogroups.com SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them . -- James Adkins, KB0NHX Vice-President -- Nixa Amateur Radio Club, Inc. (KC0LUN) www.nixahams.net http://www.nixahams.net Southern Missouri Assistant Frequency Coordinator - Missouri Repeater Council www.missourirepeater.org http://www.missourirepeater.org The Nixa Amateur Radio Club - There is no charge for awesomeness! (Well, only $1.00 per month) -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 02/28/10 02:34:00 -- James Adkins, KB0NHX Vice-President -- Nixa Amateur Radio Club, Inc. (KC0LUN) www.nixahams.net Southern Missouri Assistant Frequency Coordinator - Missouri Repeater Council www.missourirepeater.org The Nixa Amateur Radio Club - There is no charge for awesomeness! (Well, only $1.00 per month) Since 1974, the award-winning Alpert JFCS has helped families of all faiths throughout most of Palm Beach County, FL, via counseling, seniors services, residences for the disabled, mentoring children, support groups and a lot more. SOLUTIONS FOR LIVING www.JFCSonline.com Please take note of our new website and E-Mail Addresses. Please update your contacts ASAP. . NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and please delete it from your computer.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
At 2/27/2010 09:56 AM, you wrote: I have been following the 9.6 Volt Micor Voltage information. One post indicated that if one were to replace the Stock MICOR Supply with a switcher and add the 9.6 Volt circuit, the monthly electric bill to run the repeater could be significantly reduced. Is this due to the fact that the switcher, in the standby mode, draws much less current and therefore cost less to operate or is it this combined with efficiently when the repeater is in operation. I have stock MICOR and MASTR II Supplies and would like your expertise on the merits of replacing them with one large switcher or a couple switchers. As always thanks in advance for your input and sharing your experiences with us. A local multi-band repeater system is having IMD problems, requested a CTCSS change to resolve one of them. After describing the sound of the low-level (~-70 dBc) spurs I'm seeing a few hundred kHz either side of the 440 output of the system, the owner told me that the IMD hitting his other inputs sounded the same. I asked if he was using a switching supply to power the system he said yes. I recommended that he replace it with a linear supply; I suspect that will solve all of his IMD problems. Will let you know... Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Chris Curtis wrote: My favorite is direct burial + shielded cat cable. I've got some here that I've been using for controller to device hookups. As well as the run from the house to the shed. Shielded with 100% foil and a joke of a braid. It is flooded with goo to keep the moisture out as well. Nice stuff for the $$ Of course, there's always fiber, but now you have to have power sources at both ends. Interestingly enough, I've watched the price of fiber come down over the last ten years, aside from changing connectors and increasing patch-panel capacities... Once it is installed properly (and people critters kept away) the stuff will last through a few generations of switch equipment. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
Bob, Let's not denigrate switching power supplies as a class, just because of a few bad apples. Switchers-as a class- are more efficient and reliable than linear supplies. Sure, there may a few brands out there that are spur generators, but not the top-of-the-line switchers from DuraComm, Samlex, Astron, Astec, AEG, and others. QST Magazine has reported on a number of switching power supplies and found that the better brands produced no detectable interference in the HF bands- which are far more vulnerable to spurs than are VHF or UHF repeaters. See the product reviews in QST issues of January 2000, September 2000, July 2006, and August 2009. I rest my case. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of n...@no6b.com Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:31 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies At 2/27/2010 09:56 AM, you wrote: I have been following the 9.6 Volt Micor Voltage information. One post indicated that if one were to replace the Stock MICOR Supply with a switcher and add the 9.6 Volt circuit, the monthly electric bill to run the repeater could be significantly reduced. Is this due to the fact that the switcher, in the standby mode, draws much less current and therefore cost less to operate or is it this combined with efficiently when the repeater is in operation. I have stock MICOR and MASTR II Supplies and would like your expertise on the merits of replacing them with one large switcher or a couple switchers. As always thanks in advance for your input and sharing your experiences with us. A local multi-band repeater system is having IMD problems, requested a CTCSS change to resolve one of them. After describing the sound of the low-level (~-70 dBc) spurs I'm seeing a few hundred kHz either side of the 440 output of the system, the owner told me that the IMD hitting his other inputs sounded the same. I asked if he was using a switching supply to power the system he said yes. I recommended that he replace it with a linear supply; I suspect that will solve all of his IMD problems. Will let you know... Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Files Uploaded
Steve, Why not put the DB-224 folder inside the DB Antennas folder? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KD8BIW Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Files Uploaded Hello all, I've created 2 folders, and uploaded a few files to them They are DB-224 and DB Antennas. These are for passing along files relating to the Decible DB antennas. If the moderators could move some of the other files that are scattered around the files page, it would make it alot easier to find them Thanks and enjoy!! Steve KD8BIW
[Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
A friend of mine full-time broadcast engineering told me he can detect zero crosstalk between pairs within the same CAT 5 cable at line level. As you suspect, balance is very important. Laryn K8TVZ --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY jmac...@... wrote: Using balanced audio in a broadcast environment, I have on rare occasions experienced issues with cross-talk between long runs of un-shielded balanced audio lines. (inductive pickup??) I always wondered if the wires were truly balanced when that happened. I prefer to used shielded balanced wiring for long runs.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
Not necessarily true, John. There are pockets of HIGH activity on 900 MHz - especially on the coasts, where PAVE PAWS has forced the reduction or elimination of 70cm repeaters. Unfortunately, I'm not on either coast (I'm in the Chicago area) so your observation is accurate -- for me anyway. :-( Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of JOHN MACKEY Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikewm9v SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor UHF Repeater Base 9.6 vdc current requirement?
I know it's a quick and dirty way to go about it, but after nearly 20 years of operation, I can't complain. Besides, I had the parts in my junk box. Today, I'd go with an LM317. With age comes wisdom. And the money to do it right LOL! Bill KB1MGH From: n...@no6b.com n...@no6b.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 6:25:09 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor UHF Repeater Base 9.6 vdc current requirement? At 2/25/2010 12:36, you wrote: Build it yourself. Use an LM7808 and and series two 1N4001's to lift the ground lead up by 1.4 volts. I know 7809's are around but the 7808 is much more common and cheaper. One thing to watch out for in lifting the ground pin above ground on the 78xx series devices is that a momentary short of the output to ground can destroy the device, IOW the integral short circuit protection is effectively defeated. You'll also need to use insulating hardware if you want to heat sink the regulator by mounting it to the (grounded) chassis. The cleanest, easiest solution may simply be an LM317 set to 9.6 V output. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
Don't forget, CAT cables have different twist rates for each pair to minimize crosstalk between them. If one pair doesn't work, try another. From: larynl2 lar...@hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:27:53 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs A friend of mine full-time broadcast engineering told me he can detect zero crosstalk between pairs within the same CAT 5 cable at line level. As you suspect, balance is very important. Laryn K8TVZ --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY jmac...@... wrote: Using balanced audio in a broadcast environment, I have on rare occasions experienced issues with cross-talk between long runs of un-shielded balanced audio lines. (inductive pickup??) I always wondered if the wires were truly balanced when that happened. I prefer to used shielded balanced wiring for long runs. Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
What really needs to happen is for someone to design a transistor or FET RF power doubler for all those 450 Mhz radios that will be coming or now surplus on the commercial market. Then amateur 900 MHz would boom. Don't ask me to do it, I don't have any time. WA9ZZU --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Mark n9...@ameritech.net wrote: From: Mark n9...@ameritech.net Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 12:47 PM Not necessarily true, John. There are pockets of HIGH activity on 900 MHz - especially on the coasts, where PAVE PAWS has forced the reduction or elimination of 70cm repeaters. Unfortunately, I'm not on either coast (I'm in the Chicago area) so your observation is accurate -- for me anyway. :-( Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com On Behalf Of JOHN MACKEY Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikewm9v SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
http://www.gemoto.com/900/coverage_NEAR900.htm This is a map of eastern Mass. 900 is very active especially with the linked repeaters. Bill KB1MGH From: Mark n9...@ameritech.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:47:33 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio Not necessarily true, John. There are pockets of HIGH activity on 900 MHz - especially on the coasts, where PAVE PAWS has forced the reduction or elimination of 70cm repeaters. Unfortunately, I'm not on either coast (I'm in the Chicago area) so your observation is accurate -- for me anyway. :-( Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of JOHN MACKEY Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikewm9v SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them. Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, allan crites wrote: What really needs to happen is for someone to design a transistor or FET RF power doubler for all those 450 Mhz radios that will be coming or now surplus on the commercial market. Then amateur 900 MHz would boom. Don't ask me to do it, I don't have any time. WA9ZZU The problem isn't the radio, the problem is the ham. If it wasn't made for the amateur band and doesn't have buttons to push, most hams won't use it. When you start saying things about programming software and channelized and no repeaters in the area, well... the average ham just decides to find something else to play with. Hams don't work on radios any more. They buy them new and push buttons. If it doesn't have push buttons and can't be programmed using a user-friendly interface, most aren't interested -- even if it is the cheapest band to get into because the radio and antenna are surplus! Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood don't make rigs on that band, so they aren't interested. Whaddaya mean ya gotta modify the radio? I don't know about this modifying a commercial a radio business. I ain't never hear'd of a ham radio by Motorola. The doubler idea is nice, except that the vast majority of the radios that are already at 900MHz use 2.5KHz deviation, not 5.0KHz deviation (or 10KHz, which would be the result of doubling a 5KHz radio). -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
[Repeater-Builder] Motorola paging reeds
A while ago someone was looking for Motorola vibrasponder reeds for paging tones, and I responded back that I had a bunch of them but had to find them. I've since lost that person's name/email address. I finally found them (accidentally). If you're the person that wanted them, please email direct. Thanks. --- Jeff WN3A
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: 2) the pair that was receiving the problem was a high impedance load or an unbalanced load (i.e. one side grounded). Use an ungrounded 600 ohm winding from a transformer on each end of each pair. The nominal impedance of a copper pair from CAT5 is 110-ohms, not 600. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
Kris, the reason we don't put T-1 on cable pairs is of course NEXT FEXT. The receive level from a T-1 MUX is 6 Volts P:P so it will spill all over the cable. The standard for T-1 in seperately shielded pairs. We do use twisted pairs at a cross connect panel for short runs... (DSX-1 Panel) The HDSL technology does allow for T-1 on cable pairs but it uses 2B1Q protocol and there is really only 12 channels of the T-1 signal on each pair. 2B1Q was developed by Northern Telecom in Ottawa. 73 John VE3AMZ Retired, Bell Canada and MTS Allstream - Original Message - From: Kris Kirby k...@catonic.us To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, JOHN MACKEY wrote: Using balanced audio in a broadcast environment, I have on rare occasions experienced issues with cross-talk between long runs of un-shielded balanced audio lines. (inductive pickup??) I always wondered if the wires were truly balanced when that happened. That's probably NEXT or FEXT, which is near-end cross-talk and far-end. Bell documented this stuff somewhere; I've read the book. There's a reason why they don't run the T1 lines with the voice lines or why they don't stuff the entire binder full of T1s. Of course, that same book explained how to use the cable pairs as resistors to heat up the cable, which has been done a few times in NYC, resulting in dead pairs in the cable due to too much power/heating on a given pair. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
At 12:38 PM 02/28/10, you wrote: On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: 2) the pair that was receiving the problem was a high impedance load or an unbalanced load (i.e. one side grounded). Use an ungrounded 600 ohm winding from a transformer on each end of each pair. The nominal impedance of a copper pair from CAT5 is 110-ohms, not 600. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst I agree with you 100% - but 150 ohm transformers are not as common as 600 ohm transformers, and we had to solve the problem that day. We used what was available. Splicing a 1:1 600 ohm transformer into each end of each audio run fixed the problem. If transformers with a center-tapped 660 ohm winding had been available we would have used 1/2 of the winding that was facing the CAT5 cable since the impedance of 1/2 of a 600 ohm winding (i.e. from the center tap to one outside end) is 150 ohms. The ideal transformer configuration for driving CAT5 or CAT6 is one that has split windings that total 150 ohms that faced the cable and 600 ohms facing the end equipment. Monospaced font time: -+ +-- ! ! ) !! ( 600 ohm ) !! ( 45 ohm winding ) !! ( winding ) !! ( ) !! ( ) !! ! ) !! + ) !! ) !! ) !! + ) !! ! ) !! ( ) !! ( 45 ohm ) !! ( winding ) !! ( ) !! ( ! !! ! -+ !! +--- The 600 ohms is the audio equipment side. The two 45 ohm windings in series give 150 ohms (CAT5 CAT6 side). The inner winding ends can be tied together in normal use, or used DC remote style for switching far end equipment on or off or changing modes. Mike WA6ILQ
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LOOONG audio runs
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: 2) the pair that was receiving the problem was a high impedance load or an unbalanced load (i.e. one side grounded). Use an ungrounded 600 ohm winding from a transformer on each end of each pair. The nominal impedance of a copper pair from CAT5 is 110-ohms, not 600. Actually, unless something has changed or I'm totally losing it, balanced Ethernet over Cat3 or higher is 100 ohms. AES3 (aka AES/EBU) digital audio over balanced lines is 110 ohms. IIRC, the tolerance for Ethernet is +/- 15% and for AES it's +/- 20%. AES/EBU can be run over Cat5/5e/6/7 cabling, typically with excellent results. Back to the analog world. Unless you're going long distances, the characteristic transmission line impedance doesn't have a very big effect at audio frequencies. It's not until you get up to a significant fraction of a wavelength that it starts to act like a transmission line. At small fractions of a wavelength, there's no room for standing waves to form, so current and voltage are, for all intents and purposes, always in-phase. At 20 kHz, one wavelength is somewhere around 10 miles (ignoring VF). That's not to say that there's no advantage to using the right cable at audio frequencies. Twist rate, capacitance (both between conductors as well as to the shield), gauge/resistive loss, etc. all have an effect, good and bad, even down in the AF range. --- Jeff WN3A
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Suggestions for signal generator?
At 09:13 AM 02/27/10, you wrote: Anyone have a suggestion for a simple 50 ohm signal generator? I have a number of VHF Phelps Dodge duplexers and several UHF flat pack duplexers I'd like to be able to test prior to sale and possibly rough tune for a few projects duing the waning weeks of winter. I realize a network analyzer would be the best case option for doing this sort of work; followed by possibly a service monitor and a spectrum analyzer with tracking generator. I currently have an HP spectrum analyzer available at work; unfortunately it did not come equiped with a tracking generator. It does have a current calibration; I'm guessing I could use it to determine the exact output from a signal generator and subsequently the insertion loss from the duplexer. Look in the Spectrum Analyzer manual and see if it mentions a model of generator that can be cabled to it and used a slaved sweep generator. That will give you the functionality of a tracking generator. The go looking for that model number, perhaps on ebay, Twenty years ago I saw a rube goldgerg kluge of a 141T Spectrum Analyzer and a RF generator that made up a tracking generator system, and used to tune duplexers and front ends. Mike WA6ILQ
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio
I have no doubt you are correct, but I'll still say that 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong (compared to other V/U bands). -- Original Message -- Received: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:47:51 AM PST From: Mark n9...@ameritech.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] 900 meg Spectra radio Not necessarily true, John. There are pockets of HIGH activity on 900 MHz - especially on the coasts, where PAVE PAWS has forced the reduction or elimination of 70cm repeaters. Unfortunately, I'm not on either coast (I'm in the Chicago area) so your observation is accurate -- for me anyway. :-( Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of JOHN MACKEY Because 900 Mhz is only available to amateurs in the US and not in Japan. The 900 Mhz amateur activity in the US is not very strong. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:17 PM PST From: Fuggitaboutit mikewm9v SNIP Why cant someone just come up with a 900 meg fm mobile for amateur use? They would sell a zillion of them.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
You wrote: Switchers -as a class- are more efficient and reliable than linear supplies. As a Class... More efficient - yes, More reliable - that's debatable. In the two-way radio world, linear supplies are the rule, switchers are the exception. In 25 or 30 years, we'll see if switchers are 'really' as reliable. In my experience with switchers (as a class), they are hard on filter capacitors, with failures of them way before the normal 'dry out' time - many times in just a few years. There are a few tower management companies that I know of that won't let you install a switcher because of the possibility of interference. The same companies also do not let anyone install LMR coax onto the site. I'll be interested to see the results too, Bob. Kevin
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
Kevin, So, these tower management companies no longer allow the latest Motorola and Kenwood stations- which come with switching power supplies- to be installed at their sites? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Custer Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 3:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies snip There are a few tower management companies that I know of that won't let you install a switcher because of the possibility of interference. The same companies also do not let anyone install LMR coax onto the site. I'll be interested to see the results too, Bob. Kevin
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
What's the rationale behind the LMR ban? Leakage? lh On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Kevin Custer kug...@kuggie.com wrote: You wrote: Switchers -as a class- are more efficient and reliable than linear supplies. As a Class... More efficient - yes, More reliable - that's debatable. In the two-way radio world, linear supplies are the rule, switchers are the exception. In 25 or 30 years, we'll see if switchers are 'really' as reliable. In my experience with switchers (as a class), they are hard on filter capacitors, with failures of them way before the normal 'dry out' time - many times in just a few years. There are a few tower management companies that I know of that won't let you install a switcher because of the possibility of interference. The same companies also do not let anyone install LMR coax onto the site. I'll be interested to see the results too, Bob. Kevin
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Manual for HAL ID-1000?
HAL's number is 217-367-7373. Great folks to deal with. Al, K9SI
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
--- On Sun, 2/28/10, Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com wrote: From: Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 7:26 PM What's the rationale behind the LMR ban? Leakage? The LMR type coax is fine for a while. Then the braid and foil start rubbing against each other and you get noise in the receiver and maybe other close in receivers.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
I've never heard of it. As an installer, I'm always under pressure to use less expensive feedlines than the venerable Heliax, and I had often considered LMR, but never actually succumbed to the temptation. This is interesting information. Is this a well documented phenomenon? Anyone else like to chime in on this... Larry On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Ralph Mowery ku...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On *Sun, 2/28/10, Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 7:26 PM What's the rationale behind the LMR ban? Leakage? The LMR type coax is fine for a while. Then the braid and foil start rubbing against each other and you get noise in the receiver and maybe other close in receivers.
[Repeater-Builder] LMR Cable
The subject comes up on this list about every other week. I can only assume you are new. LMR and similar cables are not rated for low PIM, a fact verified by the manufacturer. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Larry Horlick To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies I've never heard of it. As an installer, I'm always under pressure to use less expensive feedlines than the venerable Heliax, and I had often considered LMR, but never actually succumbed to the temptation. This is interesting information. Is this a well documented phenomenon? Anyone else like to chime in on this... Larry
Re: [Repeater-Builder] LMR Cable
Indeed. I'll read the archives. Thanks. 73 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com wrote: The subject comes up on this list about every other week. I can only assume you are new. LMR and similar cables are not rated for low PIM, a fact verified by the manufacturer. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - *From:* Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:49 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies I've never heard of it. As an installer, I'm always under pressure to use less expensive feedlines than the venerable Heliax, and I had often considered LMR, but never actually succumbed to the temptation. This is interesting information. Is this a well documented phenomenon? Anyone else like to chime in on this... Larry
[Repeater-Builder] OT - McMartin receiver
Does anyone have a manual for a McMartin TR-66A SCA Multiplex Receiver. A whole manual would be nice, a schematic should do... Mike WA6ILQ
[Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Look for this to appear in the next version of Icom's vocoder. 'JK --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr n...@... wrote: What specific radio will do both NXDN and P25... and what would firmware loads to do both legally, cost? Carrying a laptop and switching when needed, isn't a problem these days. Would be nice to get dual bang-for-buck, so to speak. -- Nate Duehr n...@... facebook.com/denverpilot twitter.com/denverpilot
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
Andrew has a coaxial cable similar (remarkably similar) to LMR, called CNT. I guess the same cautions apply to this product, too? lh On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wa6...@gmail.comwrote: Go here: http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/ant-sys-index.html Scroll down to the article titled Recommended Coax and Connectors for the iDEN Enhanced Base Transceiver System. and read it, and the one following it (HELIAX Coaxial Cable for Low Intermodulation Generation. Basically the Time Wire LMR series of cables (that's a LMR followed by any 3 or 4 digit number) are not long-term duplexable feedlines. They have an internal construction that has aluminum foil rubbing against copper braid and the dissimilar metals create desense. Also the center conductor is copper clad aluminum. One of the kickers is that in many cases the noise problem doesn't happen immediately - the cable works fine for a while, then gets noisy, and the cable doesn't get immediate attention - because it's working fine. Mike WA6ILQ At 04:26 PM 02/28/10, you wrote: What's the rationale behind the LMR ban? Leakage? lh On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Kevin Custer kug...@kuggie.com wrote: You wrote: Switchers -as a class- are more efficient and reliable than linear supplies. As a Class... More efficient - yes, More reliable - that's debatable. In the two-way radio world, linear supplies are the rule, switchers are the exception. In 25 or 30 years, we'll see if switchers are 'really' as reliable. In my experience with switchers (as a class), they are hard on filter capacitors, with failures of them way before the normal 'dry out' time - many times in just a few years. There are a few tower management companies that I know of that won't let you install a switcher because of the possibility of interference. The same companies also do not let anyone install LMR coax onto the site. I'll be interested to see the results too, Bob. Kevin
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
Sorry, I cannot answer that question. My reference was more toward the replacement of an existing linear supply or new installations such as GMRS or Amateur Radio systems - repeater or otherwise. Whether or not their rule applies to newer Motorola or other commercial radio manufacturers - I'm not certain. I am told that Motorola offers alternative powering methods to systems that normally come with switching supplies. I'm not totally sure why... possibly there are companies that aren't totally sold on switcher technology? Unfortunately, like with so many things, price dictates quality. If you buy a JAN crystal, be prepared to have it drift all over the place. If you buy a cheap switcher, be prepared to have it throw garbage out all over the place. While the better switchers like Samlex and DuraComm are good performers, many of us will buy something cheap. With education, more of us will buy the better product, like International Crystals with temperature compensation performed by them. Kevin So, these tower management companies no longer allow the latest Motorola and Kenwood stations- which come with switching power supplies- to be installed at their sites? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY snip There are a few tower management companies that I know of that won't let you install a switcher because of the possibility of interference. The same companies also do not let anyone install LMR coax onto the site. I'll be interested to see the results too, Bob.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
--- On Sun, 2/28/10, Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com wrote: From: Larry Horlick llhorl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:49 PM Andrew has a coaxial cable similar (remarkably similar) to LMR, called CNT. I guess the same cautions apply to this product, too? lh There are several makes of similar cable. They all hae a foil shield and then a braid. I think it was Belden 9913 and a few other numbers that came out first. I use Davis BuryFlex for my ham station. It is very good cable, but just not for duplex operations. I have seen a few repeaters using similar cable and they have worked fine for several years. I have also seen a couple of repeaters that worked fine for a short time and then noise started. Replace the cable with hardline and the noise stopped. The cable would still be fine for use at home with a transceiver, just not for duplex service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Stock Power Supplies
At 09:56 AM 02/27/10, you wrote: I have been following the 9.6 Volt Micor Voltage information. One post indicated that if one were to replace the Stock MICOR Supply with a switcher and add the 9.6 Volt circuit, the monthly electric bill to run the repeater could be significantly reduced. Is this due to the fact that the switcher, in the standby mode, draws much less current and therefore cost less to operate or is it this combined with efficiently when the repeater is in operation. I have stock MICOR and MASTR II Supplies and would like your expertise on the merits of replacing them with one large switcher or a couple switchers. As always thanks in advance for your input and sharing your experiences with us. 73 JIM KA2AJH Wellsville, N.Y. I'm only mentioning this as food for thought. Over 10 years ago I was shown a Micor station that had been modified to reduce the electric bill. I do not know if it was GMRS, UHF amateur or 2m amateur, and I never heard if it was a short term test or a long term installation. I do not know how much the power bill was reduced, but it was probably significant. We were up at a site that had individual AC power metering for each customer. There was a row of power meters on one wall, and each customer had a 120v 30a twist lock outlet in a box mounted on the ceiling. A heavy cord dropped down to each rack. We were there to swap out a transmitter and verify the duplexer tuning. After we were done the gentleman I was with showed me an interesting system that was in an open frame rack on the other side of the room... it belonged to someone else, but was in the same building. A diagram was taped to a rack panel in the rack and the information below is from my memory of that diagram. The owner had isolated the main channel receiver, the control receiver, and the repeater controller (an Scom 5k) from the stock Micor supply and powered them from a 12v 7.5ah gell cell charged by a separate switching supply that had been carefully adjusted to the proper float voltage. The notes on the diagram stressed that the voltage had to be adjusted to better than 1/10 of a volt or it would shorten the battery life. The stock supply remained connected to the transmitter, and the AC to it was switched on and off with the PTT line run through a time delay relay so the AC would stay on for 10 minutes after the input signal went away. In your case you could do something similar. The gell-cell would be optional - the site had reliable power, I don't know why the system had the gell cell. Mike WA6ILQ
