Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Voice mail on a repeater just like our analog repeaters. Still, it is a moot point for a D-STAR repeater as the voice stream is not recorded before being retransmitted. 73, Tom n4zpt Jeff Condit wrote: > What do you call it when messages are recorded and then > retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this definition > it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? > > Jeff Condit > > - Original Message - From: Tom Azlin, N4ZPT To: > Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:02 > AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on > Repeater Definition > > > Hi Kris, > > A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bit regenerates > the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater for sure per > the FCC. I would say a linear transponder or translator is a repeater > also. the transmit part is active while the receive part is picking > up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt > > Kris Kirby wrote: > >> The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder >> doesn't "retransmit". The signal is never decoded to baseband and >> retransmitted. >> >> Or is it? With I+Q demodulation and remodulation, this could be a >> point of argument. >> >> -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
"Simplex repeater" being somewhat of an oxymoron, I believe the proper definition would be a store and foward system since the message of whatever nature (digital or analog) is stored and then fowarded (retransmitted). It's easier to call it a "simplex repeater" to convey the end result of the operation. Milt - Original Message - From: "Dave Gomberg" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition > At 16:34 3/24/2009, Jeff Condit wrote: >>What do you call it when messages are recorded and then >>retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this >>definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? > > That is exactly m y understanding of what "simplex repeater" means > >>Jeff Condit > > > -- > Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com > All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html > - > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.25/2019 - Release Date: 03/23/09 18:51:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Just because you call something a repeater doesn't mean it is. A "simplex repeater" is not a repeater due to two things: 1. It does not simultaneously retransmit, and 2. It transmits on the same frequency. Point #1 was just clarified by the FCC Monday, but point #2 has never been misinterpreted in the FCC definition, AFAIK. Joe M. Dave Gomberg wrote: > At 16:34 3/24/2009, Jeff Condit wrote: >> What do you call it when messages are recorded and then >> retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this >> definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? > > That is exactly m y understanding of what "simplex repeater" means > >> Jeff Condit > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Jeff Condit wrote: > What do you call it when messages are recorded and then > retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this definition > it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? > > Jeff Condit I don't remember ever seeing 'simplex repeater' defined. I would expect that for the most part it would fall in the same category as a packet 'digipeater.' Like others said, 'store and forward' is used in FCC parlance.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
It is a simplex operation but in the commercial world it is called "store and forward". Bill - WA0CBW In a message dated 3/25/2009 7:28:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, dmur...@verizon.net writes: If it transmits and receives on the SAME frequency (SIMPLEX). David On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Jeff Condit wrote: What do you call it when messages are recorded and then retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? Jeff Condit - Original Message - From: _Tom Azlin, N4ZP T_ (mailto:n4...@cox.net) (mailto:n4...@cox.net) To: _Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com_ (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:02AM (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) Hi Kris, A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bitregenerates the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater forsure per the FCC. I would say a linear transponde r or translator is arepeater also. the transmit part is active while the receive part ispicking up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt Kris Kirby wrote: >The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder >doesn't "retransmit" . The signal is never decoded to baseband and > retransmitted. > > Or is it? With I+Q demodulation and remodulation, this could be a point > of argument. > >-- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) (http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14hblhg3p/M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1705063108:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1237951773/L=/B=jmmBxUPDhEE-/J=1237944573002 579/K=n5D6xeNkvRMPlukywGfMiA/A=5579904/R=0/SIG=110vban8o/*http://www.handsonne twork.org/) **Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood0002)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Simplex and "store and forward" Best Regards, Chris Carruba (WQIK389) CompuTec Data Systems Custom Written Software, Networking, Forensic Data Recovery From: "dmur...@verizon.net" To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:28:44 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition If it transmits and receives on the SAME frequency (SIMPLEX). David On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Jeff Condit wrote: What do you call it when messages are recorded and then retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? Jeff Condit - Original Message - From: Tom Azlin, N4ZPT To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition Hi Kris, A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bitregenerates the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater forsure per the FCC. I would say a linear transponder or translator is arepeater also. the transmit part is active while the receive part ispicking up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt Kris Kirby wrote: >The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder >doesn't "retransmit" . The signal is never decoded to baseband and > retransmitted. > > Or is it? With I+Q demodulation andremodulation, this could be a point > of argument. > >-- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
If it transmits and receives on the SAME frequency (SIMPLEX). David On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Jeff Condit wrote: What do you call it when messages are recorded and then retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? Jeff Condit - Original Message - From: Tom Azlin, N4ZPT <mailto:n4...@cox.net> <mailto:n4...@cox.net> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:02AM <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> Hi Kris, A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bitregenerates the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater forsure per the FCC. I would say a linear transponder or translator is arepeater also. the transmit part is active while the receive part ispicking up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt Kris Kirby wrote: The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder doesn't "retransmit" . The signal is never decoded to baseband and retransmitted. Or is it? With I+Q demodulation andremodulation, this could be a point of argument. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst <mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14hblhg3p/M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1705063108:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1237951773/L=/B=jmmBxUPDhEE-/J=1237944573002579/K=n5D6xeNkvRMPlukywGfMiA/A=5579904/R=0/SIG=110vban8o/*http://www.handsonnetwork.org/>
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
At 16:34 3/24/2009, Jeff Condit wrote: >What do you call it when messages are recorded and then >retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this >definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? That is exactly m y understanding of what "simplex repeater" means >Jeff Condit -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Guys, I think the question about whether it decodes to baseband is a non-sequitur. A translator is a repeater whose baseband is at RF frequencies rather than audio, that's all. Want to split hairs? A traditional analog repeater relaying formal traffic during a net doesn't convert the baseband audio to printed word, then re-code it using a text-to-speech converter, either. So, has the repeater been a repeater if the message both originated and was delivered in written form, but was never decoded all the way down to text during repeat? The D-Star repeater never receives a voice (phone emission) to decode. It does the minimum processing required to reliably pass on a data stream it receives. But the high-level block diagram in a communications system looks the same for either kind of repeater, and the effect on bandwidth use is the same - double that of simplex for a given emissions type. Tom, I think you're right about transponders/translators from a philisophical standpoint, but they have some quirks involving ID, etc, and so unique rules. A lot of the so-called "gray areas" are nothing more than word-parsing hams trying to do something that clearly violates the intent of the rules. The pressure to find repeater pairs for digital modes will bring lots of word-parsers out of the woodwork. The real answer would be coordination reform to clear underutilized or dormant pairs for digital use. It's pretty nuts to have an analog repeater for every 1.2 users. I know, I know... ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tom Azlin, N4ZPT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition Hi Kris, A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bit regenerates the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater for sure per the FCC. I would say a linear transponder or translator is a repeater also. the transmit part is active while the receive part is picking up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt Kris Kirby wrote: > The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder > doesn't "retransmit". The signal is never decoded to baseband and > retransmitted. > > Or is it? With I+Q demodulation and remodulation, this could be a point > of argument. > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
What do you call it when messages are recorded and then retransmission begins right after reception ends? By this definition it would not constitute a "simplex repeater", right? Jeff Condit - Original Message - From: Tom Azlin, N4ZPT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition Hi Kris, A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bit regenerates the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater for sure per the FCC. I would say a linear transponder or translator is a repeater also. the transmit part is active while the receive part is picking up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt Kris Kirby wrote: > The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder > doesn't "retransmit". The signal is never decoded to baseband and > retransmitted. > > Or is it? With I+Q demodulation and remodulation, this could be a point > of argument. > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Hi Kris, A D-STAR repeater never decodes the voice, it just bit regenerates the signal back to the data stream. Yet it is a repeater for sure per the FCC. I would say a linear transponder or translator is a repeater also. the transmit part is active while the receive part is picking up the signal. 73, Tom n4zpt Kris Kirby wrote: > The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder > doesn't "retransmit". The signal is never decoded to baseband and > retransmitted. > > Or is it? With I+Q demodulation and remodulation, this could be a point > of argument. > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Eric Lemmon wrote: > Perhaps it would serve the public interest better if the actual > document were presented, rather than a copy of the text. See the > attached. > 5 The Commission revised the definition in order to clarify that > certain accommodations for message forwarding systems do not apply to > other operating activities such as repeaters and auxiliary stations. 6 > The Commission proposed to define a repeater as "[a]n amateur station > that instantaneously retransmits the transmission of another amateur > station on a different channel or channels," but ultimately replaced > "instantaneously" with "simultaneously" because commenters noted 2. > that there is always a small propagation delay through a repeater. 7 > As one commenter explained, "The word `simultaneously' in this case > means that the repeater is receiving and transmitting concurrently, > whereas each signal might be slightly displaced in time between > receive and transmit." 8 To be able to repeat another station's > transmission, a repeater must be able to receive a transmission from > another station and retransmit it. Because the word "simultaneously" > in the definition is used to modify "retransmit," we believe it refers > to a repeater station's transmitter being active when retransmitting > the signal received by the repeater station's receiver from another > amateur station. We conclude, therefore, that "simultaneously" as used > in the definition of a repeater refers to the receiver and transmitter > both being active at the same time. The only interesting wrinkle in this is that a linear transponder doesn't "retransmit". The signal is never decoded to baseband and retransmitted. Or is it? With I+Q demodulation and remodulation, this could be a point of argument. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
[Repeater-Builder] Fw: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] FCC Ruling on Repeater Definition
Federal Communications Commission Washington, D.C. 20554 March 23, 2009 DA 09-657 Mr. Gary R. Mitchell President, Northern California Packet Association P.O. Box K Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Re: Petition for Declaratory Ruling filed December 5, 2007 Dear Mr. Mitchell: This is in response to the petition for declaratory ruling that you filed on December 5, 2007, requesting that the Commission clarify the definition of a repeater in the amateur service rules. 1 A repeater in the amateur service is defined as "[a]n amateur station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another amateur station on a different channel or channels." 2 You seek clarification of whether the word "simultaneously" in the definition refers to the signal information being retransmitted, or to the fact that the receiver and transmitter must both be active at the same time while acting on the same signal information. Section 97.205(b) of the Commission's Rules specifies the bands on which amateur repeater stations may operate. 3 You state that some amateur radio operators are operating on bands other than those set forth in Section 97.205(b) with systems that are essentially voice repeater stations, but that digitize and retransmit the user's voice, on the theory that because there is a small delay in retransmitting the signal of another amateur station, the signal is not "simultaneously" retransmitted and, therefore, the system is not a repeater. 4 Prior to 1994, a repeater was defined as "[a]n amateur station that automatically retransmits the signals of other stations." 5 The Commission revised the definition in order to clarify that certain accommodations for message forwarding systems do not apply to other operating activities such as repeaters and auxiliary stations. 6 The Commission proposed to define a repeater as "[a]n amateur station that instantaneously retransmits the transmission of another amateur station on a different channel or channels," but ultimately replaced "instantaneously" with "simultaneously" because commenters noted 2. that there is always a small propagation delay through a repeater. 7 As one commenter explained, "The word `simultaneously' in this case means that the repeater is receiving and transmitting concurrently, whereas each signal might be slightly displaced in time between receive and transmit." 8 To be able to repeat another station's transmission, a repeater must be able to receive a transmission from another station and retransmit it. Because the word "simultaneously" in the definition is used to modify "retransmit," we believe it refers to a repeater station's transmitter being active when retransmitting the signal received by the repeater station's receiver from another amateur station. We conclude, therefore, that "simultaneously" as used in the definition of a repeater refers to the receiver and transmitter both being active at the same time. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED that, pursuant to Section 4(i) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, 47 U.S.C. § 154(i), and Section 1.2 of the Commission's Rules, 47 C.F.R. § 1.2, the Petition for Declaratory Ruling filed on December 5, 2007 by Gary R. Mitchell IS GRANTED to the extent indicated above. This action is taken under delegated authority pursuant to Sections 0.131 and 0.331 of the Commission's Rules, 47 C.F.R. §§ 0.131 and 0.331. FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION Scot Stone Deputy Chief, Mobility Division Wireless Telecommunications Bureau 1 See Petition for Declaratory Ruling (filed December 5, 2007) (Petition). 2 See 47 C.F.R. § 97.3(a)(39). 3 47 C.F.R. § 97.205(b). 4 Petition at 1. 5 See 47 C.F.R. § 97.3(a)(35) (1993). 6 See Amendment of Part 97 of the Commission's Rules Concerning Message Forwarding Systems in the Amateur Service, Report and Order, PR Docket No. 93-85, 9 FCC Rcd 1786, 1788 ¶ 6 (1994). 7 Id.; see American Radio Relay League (ARRL) Comments at 16; Colorado Council of Amateur Radio Clubs Comments at 3. 8 See ARRL Comments at 16.
