Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
There is no legal difference between using CTCSS tone paging vs audible tone paging. Both are the same thing. I have a pager on my repeater. It alerts me to site conditions that require attention (alarms), and is used by others if they are trying to get hold of me and I'm not monitoring at the time. Again, telemetry is legal, as are ancillary functions of the repeater. Joe M. Chris Robinson wrote: > If you are trying to do a paging system on the repeater then no you > can not do this, if you plan on using a method that encrypts the > message. > I would sugesst that many radios now come with the ability to CTCSS > tone page, and use this method. Only radios on and set to that page > code you pick will activate. No it is not secure but no transmission > on amateur is secure, it was never meant to suppliment or bypass other > radio services! > > On 5/22/09, rert...@ix.netcom.com wrote: >> If you send to one pager at a time, you're OK because the message is going >> to a single person and isn't a broadcast. >> >> Dick >> >> -Original Message- >>> From: Christopher Hodgdon >>> Sent: May 22, 2009 3:43 PM >>> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question >>> >>> Ok, I have a question that has been bothering me over the last few days. I >>> had mentioned that we wanted to use our repeater to send out a set of >>> tones to activate fire style pager (this was some time ago) and people >>> said we should not do it for one reason or another. One of those reasons >>> was that it might be considered a one way broadcast and not legal under >>> FCC rules for amateur radio. >>> >>> That being said, I know that some people have come on here and asked about >>> using a weather radio on their repeater system, etc. Having it setup to >>> send out alerts over the repeater when they come in. Would this not also >>> be considered a 1 way broadcast for reception by general public, per-say. >>> >>> >>> How can you legally include a weather alert radio in a repeater setup and >>> have it function as required? >>> >> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release Date: 05/24/09 > 07:09:00 >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
The two nearest NOAA weather transmitters to here are 50 miles away, in adjacent counties. The NOAA site shows coverage to about half of our county to be, "0dBuV to 18dBuV: picking up a signal is possible but unreliable" A NOAA antenna at about 45 feet and a Radio Shack receiver allows us to automatically turn on the repeater transmitter with NOAA audio when there is a tornado or severe thunderstorm warning. The locals appreciate it (they like to tell us about hearing the Wednesday tests) and we have not had a complaint yet. Kris Kirby wrote: > > > Why not just have a two-tone pager set to the same frequency and > activation tone as the weather alerts? If all available tone slots a set > matched to the incoming tone, you'll be able to hear the weather alerts, > or unmute the reciever. Then you don't have to mess with FCC compliance, > or modification of the repeater. Then you can enjoy the 1+kW EIRP of > NOAA's transmitters. >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
If you are trying to do a paging system on the repeater then no you can not do this, if you plan on using a method that encrypts the message. I would sugesst that many radios now come with the ability to CTCSS tone page, and use this method. Only radios on and set to that page code you pick will activate. No it is not secure but no transmission on amateur is secure, it was never meant to suppliment or bypass other radio services! On 5/22/09, rert...@ix.netcom.com wrote: > If you send to one pager at a time, you're OK because the message is going > to a single person and isn't a broadcast. > > Dick > > -Original Message- >>From: Christopher Hodgdon >>Sent: May 22, 2009 3:43 PM >>To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question >> >>Ok, I have a question that has been bothering me over the last few days. I >> had mentioned that we wanted to use our repeater to send out a set of >> tones to activate fire style pager (this was some time ago) and people >> said we should not do it for one reason or another. One of those reasons >> was that it might be considered a one way broadcast and not legal under >> FCC rules for amateur radio. >> >>That being said, I know that some people have come on here and asked about >> using a weather radio on their repeater system, etc. Having it setup to >> send out alerts over the repeater when they come in. Would this not also >> be considered a 1 way broadcast for reception by general public, per-say. >> >> >>How can you legally include a weather alert radio in a repeater setup and >> have it function as required? >> > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
I thought the original post was about alarms and paging, not weather alerts. So, if the fan goes out on your amp, it's better to let it burn rather then send out an alert to notify a control op? Oh, and last I knew weather DOES impact repeater sites the same as any other location, so if strong thunderstorms are coming, that may be something you would want to know to keep an ear on the repeater. Joe M. On Sat 23/05/09 6:52 PM , Kris Kirby k...@catonic.us sent: > On Sat, 23 May 2009 m...@nb.net > wrote:> Telemetry is legal, so if it's alerting you as > to the conditions at or > near the site, it should be fine. Nowhere does > it require the > telemetry to be in data-only format. > > Yes, But... > > You didn't clarify how in the world that matters in the current > argument. I don't care if it's 150 MPH winds and gusting at the repeater > site -- I'm going to find a hole in the ground to hide in! > > Analog telemetry was used for the early rockets of the space program. > However, repeating a tone generated by NOAA doesn't tell you anything > about conditions at the repeater site. Nor should you care, since a > properly engineered and installed repeater won't have any difficulties > with high winds, rain, or hail. > > Telemetry is not a catch-all for "Hey, a weather radio at the repeater > site went off". > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ > Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > > To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join(Yahoo! ID required) > > To change settings via email: > repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com > repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
On Sat, 23 May 2009 m...@nb.net wrote: > Telemetry is legal, so if it's alerting you as to the conditions at or > near the site, it should be fine. Nowhere does it require the > telemetry to be in data-only format. Yes, But... You didn't clarify how in the world that matters in the current argument. I don't care if it's 150 MPH winds and gusting at the repeater site -- I'm going to find a hole in the ground to hide in! Analog telemetry was used for the early rockets of the space program. However, repeating a tone generated by NOAA doesn't tell you anything about conditions at the repeater site. Nor should you care, since a properly engineered and installed repeater won't have any difficulties with high winds, rain, or hail. Telemetry is not a catch-all for "Hey, a weather radio at the repeater site went off". -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
Telemetry is legal, so if it's alerting you as to the conditions at or near the site, it should be fine. Nowhere does it require the telemetry to be in data-only format. Joe M. On Sat 23/05/09 4:28 PM , Kris Kirby k...@catonic.us sent: > On Fri, 22 May 2009, Christopher Hodgdon wrote: > > Ok, I have a question that has been bothering me > over the last few > days. I had mentioned that we wanted to use our > repeater to send out > a set of tones to activate fire style pager > (this was some time ago) > and people said we should not do it for one > reason or another. One of > those reasons was that it might be considered a > one way broadcast and > not legal under FCC rules for amateur > radio.> > > That being said, I know that some people have > come on here and asked > about using a weather radio on their repeater > system, etc. Having it > setup to send out alerts over the repeater when > they come in. Would > this not also be considered a 1 way broadcast > for reception by general > public, per-say. > > Re-repeating NOAA's broadcast and/or tones, and generating your own > alert tones is dodgy at best. If you did so, it would be a one-way > transmission since there is no reason to respond, no incentive to pop > up on the local repeater. However, if you transmitted a CAPCODE or a > two-tone alert tone for "Net Requested" then, that meets the > definition: > (2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way > communicationswith other stations; > > I believe that if even one ham responded, you'd meet the requirement. > (2) is satisfied (reach with me here) by the actions of a fire > department dispatcher. There are very few occasions in fire departments > where a page tone is not followed by radio traffic -- especially in > rural volunteer departments. > > > How can you legally include a weather alert > radio in a repeater setup > and have it function as required? > > Why not just have a two-tone pager set to the same frequency and > activation tone as the weather alerts? If all available tone slots a set > matched to the incoming tone, you'll be able to hear the weather alerts, > or unmute the reciever. Then you don't have to mess with FCC compliance, > or modification of the repeater. Then you can enjoy the 1+kW EIRP of > NOAA's transmitters. > > Another poster commented: > > Tones for the activation of pagers are > Telecommand and information > bulletins. > > I strongly disagree with this. Telecommand involves the remote > operation of equipment, i.e.: repeaters and spacecraft. Telecommand does > not cover remotely managing people. > > Remember, the intent of the amateur service is not to do those things > which commercial radio does for profit. We can't build phone networks > over radio and sell bandwidth or airtime to cover our costs. We can't > operate for-profit or non-profit paging transmitters in the amateur > bands. We can only serve our own needs. We have a great deal of > technology available to us now for various forms of amateur > experimentation and exploitation. We must keep in mind however that our > purpose is to communicate. The FCC has limited us in the manner of > what types of things we may share, when, and how we are allowed to > communicate. > > Fundamentally, we're about communicating, not emergency service. There's > other sections of radio for that: Part 90. > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > Disinformation Analyst > > > From the rules at ARRL.org: > (b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized > elsewhere in this Part, an amateur station may transmit > the following types of one-way communications: > > (1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the station; > (2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications > with other stations; > > (3) Telecommand; > (4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency communications; > (5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning, or improving > proficiency in, the international Morse code; > > (6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins; > (7) Transmissions of telemetry. > ... > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ > Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > > To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join(Yahoo! ID required) > > To change settings via email: > repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com > repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
On Fri, 22 May 2009, Christopher Hodgdon wrote: > Ok, I have a question that has been bothering me over the last few > days. I had mentioned that we wanted to use our repeater to send out > a set of tones to activate fire style pager (this was some time ago) > and people said we should not do it for one reason or another. One of > those reasons was that it might be considered a one way broadcast and > not legal under FCC rules for amateur radio. > > That being said, I know that some people have come on here and asked > about using a weather radio on their repeater system, etc. Having it > setup to send out alerts over the repeater when they come in. Would > this not also be considered a 1 way broadcast for reception by general > public, per-say. Re-repeating NOAA's broadcast and/or tones, and generating your own alert tones is dodgy at best. If you did so, it would be a one-way transmission since there is no reason to respond, no incentive to pop up on the local repeater. However, if you transmitted a CAPCODE or a two-tone alert tone for "Net Requested" then, that meets the definition: (2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications with other stations; I believe that if even one ham responded, you'd meet the requirement. (2) is satisfied (reach with me here) by the actions of a fire department dispatcher. There are very few occasions in fire departments where a page tone is not followed by radio traffic -- especially in rural volunteer departments. > How can you legally include a weather alert radio in a repeater setup > and have it function as required? Why not just have a two-tone pager set to the same frequency and activation tone as the weather alerts? If all available tone slots a set matched to the incoming tone, you'll be able to hear the weather alerts, or unmute the reciever. Then you don't have to mess with FCC compliance, or modification of the repeater. Then you can enjoy the 1+kW EIRP of NOAA's transmitters. Another poster commented: > Tones for the activation of pagers are Telecommand and information > bulletins. I strongly disagree with this. Telecommand involves the remote operation of equipment, i.e.: repeaters and spacecraft. Telecommand does not cover remotely managing people. Remember, the intent of the amateur service is not to do those things which commercial radio does for profit. We can't build phone networks over radio and sell bandwidth or airtime to cover our costs. We can't operate for-profit or non-profit paging transmitters in the amateur bands. We can only serve our own needs. We have a great deal of technology available to us now for various forms of amateur experimentation and exploitation. We must keep in mind however that our purpose is to communicate. The FCC has limited us in the manner of what types of things we may share, when, and how we are allowed to communicate. Fundamentally, we're about communicating, not emergency service. There's other sections of radio for that: Part 90. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst >From the rules at ARRL.org: (b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized elsewhere in this Part, an amateur station may transmit the following types of one-way communications: (1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the station; (2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications with other stations; (3) Telecommand; (4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency communications; (5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning, or improving proficiency in, the international Morse code; (6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins; (7) Transmissions of telemetry. ...
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
If you send to one pager at a time, you're OK because the message is going to a single person and isn't a broadcast. Dick -Original Message- >From: Christopher Hodgdon >Sent: May 22, 2009 3:43 PM >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question > >Ok, I have a question that has been bothering me over the last few days. I >had mentioned that we wanted to use our repeater to send out a set of tones to >activate fire style pager (this was some time ago) and people said we should >not do it for one reason or another. One of those reasons was that it might >be considered a one way broadcast and not legal under FCC rules for amateur >radio. > >That being said, I know that some people have come on here and asked about >using a weather radio on their repeater system, etc. Having it setup to send >out alerts over the repeater when they come in. Would this not also be >considered a 1 way broadcast for reception by general public, per-say. > >How can you legally include a weather alert radio in a repeater setup and have >it function as required? >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
--- On Fri, 5/22/09, Christopher Hodgdon wrote: > From: Christopher Hodgdon > Subject: [Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 6:43 PM > Ok, I have a question that has been > bothering me over the last few days. I had mentioned > that we wanted to use our repeater to send out a set of > tones to activate fire style pager (this was some time ago) > and people said we should not do it for one reason or > another. One of those reasons was that it might be > considered a one way broadcast and not legal under FCC rules > for amateur radio. > > That being said, I know that some people have come on here > and asked about using a weather radio on their repeater > system, etc. Having it setup to send out alerts over > the repeater when they come in. Would this not also be > considered a 1 way broadcast for reception by general > public, per-say. > > How can you legally include a weather alert radio in a > repeater setup and have it function as required? > > > > >From the rules at ARRL.org (b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized elsewhere in this Part, an amateur station may transmit the following types of one-way communications: (1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the station; (2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications with other stations; (3) Telecommand; (4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency communications; (5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning, or improving proficiency in, the international Morse code; (6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins; (7) Transmissions of telemetry. ... Tones for the activation of pagers are Telecommand and information bulletins. The WX is either emergency or information bulletins. Also the WX retransmission is speciffically addressed as: (e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and originated from United States Government stations, and communications, including incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a manned spacecraft and its associated Earth stati
[Repeater-Builder] One way transmitting question
Ok, I have a question that has been bothering me over the last few days. I had mentioned that we wanted to use our repeater to send out a set of tones to activate fire style pager (this was some time ago) and people said we should not do it for one reason or another. One of those reasons was that it might be considered a one way broadcast and not legal under FCC rules for amateur radio. That being said, I know that some people have come on here and asked about using a weather radio on their repeater system, etc. Having it setup to send out alerts over the repeater when they come in. Would this not also be considered a 1 way broadcast for reception by general public, per-say. How can you legally include a weather alert radio in a repeater setup and have it function as required?
