Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality
FYI For a high end repeater look at the Kenwood TKR-740 We use a lot of the TKR-840 and they are as good as a Micor. John - Original Message - From: Chappy To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:28 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality Thanks for the many replies to my original question. Although I didn't expect so much debate about tone vs carrier squelch, many of the comments were quite informative. I especially enjoyed the concept of csq for strong signals and tone for weaker ones. For the record, this 2M repeater has existed for at least 33 years with very little down time, covering about 60 miles along I-65, which is one reason it has remained open squelch. Sure, there are occasional aggravations during band openings, but it is generally well tolerated. There have been many changes in equipment, starting with pre-prog strips, pro- gressing through chassis from VHF Engineering, Spectrum, Hamtronics, Mitrek, M2, etc; controllers from ACC, NHRC, and Link, and CATV line to Heliax, etc. and of course antennas from Ringos to Hustler to Celwave to DB. I'm sure many members of this list can relate to systems such as this one. Through the years many tech crews have come and gone, and the present one (me) is getting older and tiring of the mix, thus the proposal to move on to the Kenwood TKR, based on the many favorable comments about it and my experience with one deployed at my former workplace some months ago. For the time being, the TKR that we hope to deploy will stay in CSQ, with an option to switch to tone on occasion. My original post was to seek assurance that the "stock squelch" in the TKR will perform well, without the need to add a "RLC-MOT" or similar. Thanks again for the good advice. Chappy Rice kd4ss
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality
Thanks for the many replies to my original question. Although I didn't expect so much debate about tone vs carrier squelch, many of the comments were quite informative. I especially enjoyed the concept of csq for strong signals and tone for weaker ones. For the record, this 2M repeater has existed for at least 33 years with very little down time, covering about 60 miles along I-65, which is one reason it has remained open squelch. Sure, there are occasional aggravations during band openings, but it is generally well tolerated. There have been many changes in equipment, starting with pre-prog strips, pro- gressing through chassis from VHF Engineering, Spectrum, Hamtronics, Mitrek, M2, etc; controllers from ACC, NHRC, and Link, and CATV line to Heliax, etc. and of course antennas from Ringos to Hustler to Celwave to DB. I'm sure many members of this list can relate to systems such as this one. Through the years many tech crews have come and gone, and the present one (me) is getting older and tiring of the mix, thus the proposal to move on to the Kenwood TKR, based on the many favorable comments about it and my experience with one deployed at my former workplace some months ago. For the time being, the TKR that we hope to deploy will stay in CSQ, with an option to switch to tone on occasion. My original post was to seek assurance that the "stock squelch" in the TKR will perform well, without the need to add a "RLC-MOT" or similar. Thanks again for the good advice. Chappy Rice kd4ss
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality
At 03:47 PM 08/19/08, you wrote: > > if you run full time tone mode you can run open squelch > > (i.e. and blow raw carrier into the tone decoder) and > > maximize the system sensitivity. > >... with an advisory caution to use a serious quality >ctcss/dcs decoder. Less than optimal designed circuits >might false on or off. Yep, I forgot to mention that (coming from a Moto environment, not a YaeComWood environment) > > This is because a weak carrier that otherwise wouldn't open > > the squelch will decode. > >The question is... would the now active weak carrier have an >honest usable voice quality signal? Is the difference worth >getting excited about? Probably not. Another trick - have the carrier squelch set so it requires a certain quieting signal - maybe 12-15db ... then have the tone decoder force the squelch open. > > If you didn't know it was toned you'd think it was a > > well-designed carrier squelch system (at least until the > > first YaeComWood showed up with it's no-reverse-burst and > > the PL reed in the system receiver had to freewheel to a > > stop to mute the audio). > >Wasn't GE's scheme to simply delay the carrier drop while >the ctcss went away... no reverse burst. Early GE, yes. When the Moto reverse burst patent expired GE came up (with a lot of marketing fanfare) with a great new invention - the Squelch Tail Eliminator circuit (called "STE" in the LBIs). I know that Mastr IIs have STE, not sure of the other series. >An early ACC Repeater Controller with the audio delay module >was a miracle cure-all for many would could not tame the >squelch crash noise gremlin. Yep. Easier to put a time delay in the repeater audio path than have every member build up a reverse burst encoder (or add an RB-1 to their TS-32). >s. I still remember the day that WA6KL:A and I had a conversation on a local 2m box, which at that time was Moto A strips with a factory PL decoder added on to an originally carrier squelch receiver. We both had U73MHT Motracs with reverse burst. Neil had rigged the repeater receiver squelch so that it required a decently quieting signal to repeat normally but a PLd signal would repeat even if it was a lot noisier. At that time I lived in the fringe area of the repeater, even for a 110w +3db gain mobile. I was maybe 1/4 to 1/3 quieting but had no squelch tail. Neil was full quieting and had no tail. Other hams had carrier squelch mobiles, could be line of sight but had a tail. It drove some of them nuts for months because they couldn't figure out what was going on. Mike
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality
At 8/19/2008 15:47, you wrote: >Wasn't GE's scheme to simply delay the carrier drop while >the ctcss went away... no reverse burst. My Mastr II encoder encodes reverse burst. For some reason MVP CG boards respond to reverse burst but do not encode it, nor do they drop CTCSS before dropping TX. Bob NO6B
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality
> if you run full time tone mode you can run open squelch
> (i.e. and blow raw carrier into the tone decoder) and
> maximize the system sensitivity.
... with an advisory caution to use a serious quality
ctcss/dcs decoder. Less than optimal designed circuits
might false on or off.
> This is because a weak carrier that otherwise wouldn't open
> the squelch will decode.
The question is... would the now active weak carrier have an
honest usable voice quality signal? Is the difference worth
getting excited about?
> If you didn't know it was toned you'd think it was a
> well-designed carrier squelch system (at least until the
> first YaeComWood showed up with it's no-reverse-burst and
> the PL reed in the system receiver had to freewheel to a
> stop to mute the audio).
Wasn't GE's scheme to simply delay the carrier drop while
the ctcss went away... no reverse burst.
An early ACC Repeater Controller with the audio delay module
was a miracle cure-all for many would could not tame the
squelch crash noise gremlin.
s.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood squelch quality
You've got some of the Kenwood Dealers in the group excited... a few probably even slipped off their chairs. Carrier Squelch operation of a TKR-x50 repeater is pretty darn good. Since I'm running a number of carrier squelch repeaters I can happily say the "crash noise" is not objectionable, nor is it excessive. Squelch Crash noise can actually be eliminated in carrier squelch repeater operation when you use an audio delay line... most often supplied within the repeater controller (as an option). So you can have both bad and good squelch-noise operation on multiple brand/type repeaters and they would all sound like a quiet breath of spring when you use an audio delay line with your repeater controller. Otherwise back to square one fundamentals where the stand alone Kenwood TKR-750 and TKR-850 repeater squelch operation works very well. cheers, skipp > "chappyr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > A club is considering Kenwood TKR > repeaters for 2M and 440. The 2M repeater > will be "carrier squelch"--no tone. > Would appreciate comments how well the > Kenwood squelch works, compared to the famous > Micor squelch, RLC-MOT, MASTR2, etc. > Thanks -- kd4ss >
