[Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV The 440 repeater is a Icom FR-4000, with a Sinclair duplexer (4 cavities). I have about 50 ft of LMR-400 coax running to a vertical ant (9.8 db) on at ~25ft. I had a 25db preamp on it seemed to help a little. Freq is 447.9500+ MHz, ERP ~80 Watts, HAAT ~600 Feet, @1,200 ft elevation. My 2m IRLP node @ 5 or 20w seems to do better than the repeater even though I have it on a dual band vert at a lower elevation, I figured it was the 440 band. I have RC210 controller on it for the IRLP node (multiple ports) but it keeps resetting and has locked up a few times (PTT on!) so that's why I put the IRLP on 2m simplex. Not sure why it locks up, maybe RF? It's still resets every couple of days even though it's not used much. Coverage map: http://k5ehx.net/repeaters/qrepeater.php?id=15838 Thanks, --Greg
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
Greg: If you are not on the RC210 yahoo group you should join. Earlier in 2009 there were a lot of people having problems with RC210 resets with a few versions of firmware which has sense been resolved. You should check to see if you have one of the unstable versions loaded and then go to either v4.74 or v5.281 to see if that will address your controller problems. John Lock kf0m at arrl.net -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com]on Behalf Of thornwal Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 7:20 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV The 440 repeater is a Icom FR-4000, with a Sinclair duplexer (4 cavities). I have about 50 ft of LMR-400 coax running to a vertical ant (9.8 db) on at ~25ft. I had a 25db preamp on it seemed to help a little. Freq is 447.9500+ MHz, ERP ~80 Watts, HAAT ~600 Feet, @1,200 ft elevation. My 2m IRLP node @ 5 or 20w seems to do better than the repeater even though I have it on a dual band vert at a lower elevation, I figured it was the 440 band. I have RC210 controller on it for the IRLP node (multiple ports) but it keeps resetting and has locked up a few times (PTT on!) so that's why I put the IRLP on 2m simplex. Not sure why it locks up, maybe RF? It's still resets every couple of days even though it's not used much. Coverage map: http://k5ehx.net/repeaters/qrepeater.php?id=15838 Thanks, --Greg Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
The first red flag is the LMR400 cable which is notorious for causing desense in duplex service. Can you hear the repeater OK but have difficulty getting in? Also, getting above the tree level can make a big difference on UHF. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: thornwal th...@xecu.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV The 440 repeater is a Icom FR-4000, with a Sinclair duplexer (4 cavities). I have about 50 ft of LMR-400 coax running to a vertical ant (9.8 db) on at ~25ft. I had a 25db preamp on it seemed to help a little. Freq is 447.9500+ MHz, ERP ~80 Watts, HAAT ~600 Feet, @1,200 ft elevation. My 2m IRLP node @ 5 or 20w seems to do better than the repeater even though I have it on a dual band vert at a lower elevation, I figured it was the 440 band. I have RC210 controller on it for the IRLP node (multiple ports) but it keeps resetting and has locked up a few times (PTT on!) so that's why I put the IRLP on 2m simplex. Not sure why it locks up, maybe RF? It's still resets every couple of days even though it's not used much. Coverage map: http://k5ehx.net/repeaters/qrepeater.php?id=15838 Thanks, --Greg Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.148/2629 - Release Date: 01/17/10 14:35:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
I'll ditto what Chuck said. LMR-400 should be avoided like the plague in repeater service. If you're not making your cables out of some type of superflex, try RG-214 with proper gender connectors, you can get BNC connectors for this coax. RG-400 is a good choice for interstage wiring, like exciter to PA. As for the Arcom RC-210's, I feel the same about them as the LMR-400. We had 3 of them at one point, all with v4.74 firmware. One thing I did notice was that on our site with just one repeater and no link radios, it was fairly stable. But, on our other sites (one with a repeater and link radio) and one with two repeaters and IRLP, it was very unstable. After nearly two years of banging my head against the wall, we sought other options. We're now using the SCOM 7330. It has been a VERY reliable performer for us, not one glitch, at all, EVER, since day one. We are doing the same things and more than what we ever did with the Arcom. It was a hard sell to club members because they thought the Arcom was cheaper (they weren't the ones going up there every month to babysit it, either!) But, when you compare the price of an Arcom, pre-built and tested, with cabinet and 3 RAD boards and software cost to an SCOM, which comes standard with the cabinet, 3 audio delay boards, 3 PL Encoders as well, the prices are pretty much the same. If you've ever used hyperterminal, you'll appreciate the ease of programming the SCOM, too, without finicky software to use. I've also had very good success with the CAT line of controllers. They are rock solid, simple controllers, but much less flexible than the new breed of controllers. NHRC also makes good, reliable controllers. I've never used any of the other brands. I know that won't help your reset problems, but knowing there are other options out there with the same features. There's so many fixes for the random resets hopefully you'll find one that works for you, we never did. James Adkins, KB0NHX On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:18 AM, kf0m kf0m_l...@cox.net wrote: Greg: If you are not on the RC210 yahoo group you should join. Earlier in 2009 there were a lot of people having problems with RC210 resets with a few versions of firmware which has sense been resolved. You should check to see if you have one of the unstable versions loaded and then go to either v4.74 or v5.281 to see if that will address your controller problems. John Lock kf0m at arrl.net -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of thornwal Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 7:20 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV The 440 repeater is a Icom FR-4000, with a Sinclair duplexer (4 cavities). I have about 50 ft of LMR-400 coax running to a vertical ant (9.8 db) on at ~25ft. I had a 25db preamp on it seemed to help a little. Freq is 447.9500+ MHz, ERP ~80 Watts, HAAT ~600 Feet, @1,200 ft elevation. My 2m IRLP node @ 5 or 20w seems to do better than the repeater even though I have it on a dual band vert at a lower elevation, I figured it was the 440 band. I have RC210 controller on it for the IRLP node (multiple ports) but it keeps resetting and has locked up a few times (PTT on!) so that's why I put the IRLP on 2m simplex. Not sure why it locks up, maybe RF? It's still resets every couple of days even though it's not used much. Coverage map: http://k5ehx.net/repeaters/qrepeater.php?id=15838 Thanks, --Greg Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
I hear it better than I get into it. With the IRLP node on 2m with less power in the same spots the signal is full quieting, much better compared to the repeater. I guess it could be a combination of things, trees, coax, height, etc. What coax is best without breaking the bank, hihi? --Greg KD3SU --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: The first red flag is the LMR400 cable which is notorious for causing desense in duplex service. Can you hear the repeater OK but have difficulty getting in? Also, getting above the tree level can make a big difference on UHF. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: thornwal th...@... To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2edv@ wrote: Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV The 440 repeater is a Icom FR-4000, with a Sinclair duplexer (4 cavities). I have about 50 ft of LMR-400 coax running to a vertical ant (9.8 db) on at ~25ft. I had a 25db preamp on it seemed to help a little. Freq is 447.9500+ MHz, ERP ~80 Watts, HAAT ~600 Feet, @1,200 ft elevation. My 2m IRLP node @ 5 or 20w seems to do better than the repeater even though I have it on a dual band vert at a lower elevation, I figured it was the 440 band. I have RC210 controller on it for the IRLP node (multiple ports) but it keeps resetting and has locked up a few times (PTT on!) so that's why I put the IRLP on 2m simplex. Not sure why it locks up, maybe RF? It's still resets every couple of days even though it's not used much. Coverage map: http://k5ehx.net/repeaters/qrepeater.php?id=15838 Thanks, --Greg Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.148/2629 - Release Date: 01/17/10 14:35:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
1/2 Heliax would work well. You don't have a very long run. Usually can be found pretty reasonable. Did you kill the TX while listening to a weak signal on the local speaker? That's the cheap and dirty desense check. If you kill the TX and the receive signal improves, you know you have desense. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: thornwal th...@xecu.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? I hear it better than I get into it. With the IRLP node on 2m with less power in the same spots the signal is full quieting, much better compared to the repeater. I guess it could be a combination of things, trees, coax, height, etc. What coax is best without breaking the bank, hihi? --Greg KD3SU --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: The first red flag is the LMR400 cable which is notorious for causing desense in duplex service. Can you hear the repeater OK but have difficulty getting in? Also, getting above the tree level can make a big difference on UHF. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: thornwal th...@... To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2edv@ wrote: Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV The 440 repeater is a Icom FR-4000, with a Sinclair duplexer (4 cavities). I have about 50 ft of LMR-400 coax running to a vertical ant (9.8 db) on at ~25ft. I had a 25db preamp on it seemed to help a little. Freq is 447.9500+ MHz, ERP ~80 Watts, HAAT ~600 Feet, @1,200 ft elevation. My 2m IRLP node @ 5 or 20w seems to do better than the repeater even though I have it on a dual band vert at a lower elevation, I figured it was the 440 band. I have RC210 controller on it for the IRLP node (multiple ports) but it keeps resetting and has locked up a few times (PTT on!) so that's why I put the IRLP on 2m simplex. Not sure why it locks up, maybe RF? It's still resets every couple of days even though it's not used much. Coverage map: http://k5ehx.net/repeaters/qrepeater.php?id=15838 Thanks, --Greg Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.148/2629 - Release Date: 01/17/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 270.14.149/2630 - Release Date: 01/18/10 02:35:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
Eric, 21,000ft is far, for some reason I was thinking it would be less like 1,200ft. I guess I could do a combination of vert and horz. I was thinking about running 5-20w. My RX rig is 0.25uV, not much difference from 0.3. Thanks for running the data in Commshop. I was just trying to do something simple with equipment I have and cheaper than duplexers (having to tune them etc). I have 440 repeater up and running, but it does not cover that well. I have a IRLP node up on 2m simplex and it gets out much better. Thought it might be worth a try to set up a split 2m repeater, maybe not. Thanks 73 --Greg KD3SU --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Greg, The two very important factors you must specify are transmitter power output and receiver sensitivity. If we assume 50 watts TX power and 0.3 uV RX sensitivity, my CommShop program suggests a minimum isolation of 89 dB, which can be met with 218 feet of vertical spacing (one antenna directly over the other) or 21,300 feet of horizontal spacing. As you can see, horizontal spacing has much less effect than vertical spacing, and usually is achieved with a radio or microwave link. In your particular situation, a single antenna with a duplexer will be more efficient and probably less costly than separate antennas. Of course, there are many other factors to consider, such as the quality of the receiver radio (selectivity, front end design, and sensitivity) and the quality of the transmitter radio (carrier purity, exciter type, etc.). Programs such as CommShop make many assumptions about the equipment, so the above results should be considered as a ballpark estimate. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
for 1200' I'd take discriminator audio from the RX and convert it to balanced audio with a transformer or a couple op-amps and send the balanced audio on a pair of cat-5m. power for the RX can be sent back on the other 3 pairs, I'd send 24 or 48V and have a 12V regulator at the other end. COS can be recovered by the squelch circuit in the TX radio or with a seperate squelch board.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
Explain your 440 setup and the coverage. Maybe someone can offer some pointers there. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: thornwal th...@xecu.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? I have 440 repeater up and running, but it does not cover that well. I have a IRLP node up on 2m simplex and it gets out much better. Thought it might be worth a try to set up a split 2m repeater, maybe not. Thanks 73 --Greg KD3SU
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
Greg, Trying to combine both vertical and horizontal separation will not help; the horizontal will completely swamp the vertical. As soon as you move the transmit antenna out from directly under the receive antenna, the isolation decreases dramatically. Even a few feet of horizontal displacement will have a major influence. For example, CommShop recommends 86 dB isolation for your system with a 20 watt transmitter and a 0.25 uV receiver. That isolation can be achieved with about 190 feet of vertical separation, one antenna directly above and in line with the other, or about 16,200 feet of horizontal separation. If you raised one antenna 50 feet, you'd still need about 16,100 feet of horizontal separation. A typical vertical antenna has a narrow cone of silence directly above and below it, centered on the axis of the antenna. That's why you can mount two antennas one above the other, and have minimum interaction between them. The cones of silence overlap and essentially augment each other. This is a grossly simplified explanation, but you get the idea. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thornwal Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 12:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire? Eric, 21,000ft is far, for some reason I was thinking it would be less like 1,200ft. I guess I could do a combination of vert and horz. I was thinking about running 5-20w. My RX rig is 0.25uV, not much difference from 0.3. Thanks for running the data in Commshop. I was just trying to do something simple with equipment I have and cheaper than duplexers (having to tune them etc). I have 440 repeater up and running, but it does not cover that well. I have a IRLP node up on 2m simplex and it gets out much better. Thought it might be worth a try to set up a split 2m repeater, maybe not. Thanks 73 --Greg KD3SU --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Greg, The two very important factors you must specify are transmitter power output and receiver sensitivity. If we assume 50 watts TX power and 0.3 uV RX sensitivity, my CommShop program suggests a minimum isolation of 89 dB, which can be met with 218 feet of vertical spacing (one antenna directly over the other) or 21,300 feet of horizontal spacing. As you can see, horizontal spacing has much less effect than vertical spacing, and usually is achieved with a radio or microwave link. In your particular situation, a single antenna with a duplexer will be more efficient and probably less costly than separate antennas. Of course, there are many other factors to consider, such as the quality of the receiver radio (selectivity, front end design, and sensitivity) and the quality of the transmitter radio (carrier purity, exciter type, etc.). Programs such as CommShop make many assumptions about the equipment, so the above results should be considered as a ballpark estimate. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Split Site Via Coax Cables Wire?
At 1/17/2010 01:13 PM, you wrote: Greg, Trying to combine both vertical and horizontal separation will not help; the horizontal will completely swamp the vertical. As soon as you move the transmit antenna out from directly under the receive antenna, the isolation decreases dramatically. Even a few feet of horizontal displacement will have a major influence. For example, CommShop recommends 86 dB isolation for your system with a 20 watt transmitter and a 0.25 uV receiver. That isolation can be achieved with about 190 feet of vertical separation, one antenna directly above and in line with the other, or about 16,200 feet of horizontal separation. There's a 2 meter repeater about 3000' from my home running ~25 watts. I just checked to see if there's any measurable desense caused by that repeater to my FT-8500 radio 600 kHz away. I do see ~ 1 dB - barely noticeable. The desense is in the form of front-end compression, so any decent RX like a Mastr II or Micor wouldn't be bothered at all. Adding a modest amount of pass cavity filtering to the TX RX can dramatically reduce the amount of antenna separation needed. My very first repeater used 2 antennas separated 50' horizontally with a single pass cavity on the TX. The transceiver was all tube the RX antenna was a beam nulled into the TX antenna. I had to retune the TX about once every 2 weeks keep the sharp null of the Yagi on the TX antenna, but when this was done there was no desense. Bob NO6B
