Re: [Repeater-Builder] Squelch action on 10 m FM

2009-08-21 Thread no6b
At 8/20/2009 23:17, you wrote:


>John, how's this for an experiment...
>
>Configure a repeater with two receivers, one built for +/- 5 kHz 
>deviation, the other for +/- 15, feed them from a splitter, use audio from 
>the narrow one, but allow a DTMF command to select the wider receiver's 
>COS when conditions warrant. (Obviously, those conditions would have to 
>include no adjacent channel signal...)

If noise squelch is so problematic in severe multipath conditions, why not 
do away with it entirely & use straight CTCSS squelch?  The GE decoders 
that use Versatone chips are fast enough that you can still almost 
eliminate the squelch tail with an ADM.

Bob NO6B



Re: [Repeater-Builder] Squelch action on 10 m FM

2009-08-20 Thread Paul Plack
John, how's this for an experiment...

Configure a repeater with two receivers, one built for +/- 5 kHz deviation, the 
other for +/- 15, feed them from a splitter, use audio from the narrow one, but 
allow a DTMF command to select the wider receiver's COS when conditions 
warrant. (Obviously, those conditions would have to include no adjacent channel 
signal...)

Or, four receivers...I've always wanted to play with H/V polarization diversity 
when the band was up!

;^)

73,
Paul, AE4KR

  - Original Message - 
  From: John Sehring 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:36 PM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Squelch action on 10 m FM



  BTW, the less the deviation, the harder it is to design reliable squelch 
circuits.  It was easier in the +-15 kHz deviation daze.  The supersonic audio 
spectrum will be different for other tx deviation/rx IF bandwidth situations...
  . 

  

[Repeater-Builder] Squelch action on 10 m FM

2009-08-20 Thread John Sehring
Adam,

Ten meter FM requires some different approaches mostly due to HF propagation 
characteristics and less importantly, general HF background noise.

1)  When sigs are propagated via the F2 layer (the most common kind of 
ionospheric propagation, after sporadic E-layer), we all know they suffer from 
fading and distortion.  These occur because a signal takes many slightly 
different paths on its journey to a distant receiver. 

These paths take many different routes which results in various time delays 
among them.  They wind up really mangling, or helping, one another, depending 
on their relative time delays which lead to various phase shifts among them.  
E.g. 180 degrees of relative phase shift between 2 sigs = cancellation.

This multipath propagation is what causes selective fading (phase distortion).  
The resulting distortion can get quite awful when using AM but really terrible 
on FM, which is much more susceptable than AM to multipath. 

You can see multipath in action on a tv set using a rabbit ear antenna:  It's 
called "ghosting".  Also can hear it on a car FM broadcast receiver in built up 
areas, as brief repeated bursts of noise and distortion as you drive.

2)   We know that FM receivers use a noise-operated squelch circuit.  It's 
based on the fact that as FM sigs get stronger than the noise & distortion, 
their output "quiets".  Noise-operated squelch cts. take advantage of 
this--they open when the signal is quieted by a certain, user-adjustable 
amount. Note that FM quieting is proportional to signal to noise ratio, not 
just signal strength alone.

However, we don't want our squelch to respond to any voice modulation, which 
runs up to about 3-4 kHz.  So, the squelch samples the discriminator (not 
de-emphasized yet) output above 3-4 kHz (to about 6.5 kHz, in a 5 kHz deviation 
system), where there _should_ be only some higher audio-frequency energy that 
sounds like white-noise "hiss".

Here's where 1) and 2) come together:  Multipath propagation of FM signals 
during deviation peaks fills the audio spectrum _above_ 3-4 kHz with a TON of 
noise and distortion.  Now our sacred squelch area (3 to 6.5 kHz) is filled not 
just with hiss but loads of modulation-related products.

Looked at closely, multipath distortion on an FM signal will make a signal 
"appear" to be heavily over-deviated!  (It does an analagous thing to AM sigs, 
producing what sounds like (is, actually) over-modulation.  Bummer.

The poor squelch, unless carefully designed, will close on deviation peaks, 
even more than "talk down" or "squelch clamping" due to excessive high 
modulating frequencies/high deviations will.  Even an undeviated carrier under 
conditions of multipath will show some extra distortion.

Due to the above, the Micor lovely dual-action squelch is seeing supersonic 
(squelch spectrum) crud on just about all ionospherically propagated signals.  
Have you noticed that ground wave signals do NOT have this problem with the 
squelch?

It's conceivable that less hysteresis would help your situation.  I'd also 
explore moving the supersonic audio bandpass around some, keep the upper limit 
the same but raise the low limit somewhat.  Note that supersonic noise does not 
extend much beyond about 1/2 of the IF bandpass.  You could put an audio 
spectrum analyzer at the output of the squelch noise amp, before rectification, 
to see what freq's are present during various conditions, e.g. sigs with & 
without multipath.

It would be interesting to sit down & look at the squelch noise amp bandpass 
ct. of as many FM rx's as you can.  It's usually quite simple, one or two 
sections of high/lowpass RC circuits, sometimes a single RLC+C filter.  Find 
the -3 dB points.  Perhaps the Micor's low end is set a bit too low.

It's a compromise between having sufficiently sensitive squelch action and no 
squelch clamp down due to over-deviation & multipath.Tough choice.

BTW, the less the deviation, the harder it is to design reliable squelch 
circuits.  It was easier in the +-15 kHz deviation daze.  The supersonic audio 
spectrum will be different for other tx deviation/rx IF bandwidth situations.  
For example, the olde Motorola Sensicon tube-type receivers (remember--18 tubes 
& a big Permakay block IF filter) could be wired for either +-5 or +-15 kHz 
use; most of the changes were in the squelch area.
(I converted a few myself.
)
--John WB0EQ/VE6



Alex,

You most likely need to change a few resistors and maybe a cap or two in the 
squelch circuit of the SpectraTac's A/S card.  The components will be near the 
M7716 chip. If I recall correctly, some of the parts involve the chip's timing, 
while others tailor the discriminator audio to compensate for the variations in 
white noise between the bands. 

A few years back I took a 70MHz SpectraTac chassis and replaced the 70MHz RF/IF 
board with a 147MHz receiver, and I had the opposite effect - bef