Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Joe Ciarcia]

Bob it may be the same one. It measures 9 X 9 1/4 inches and is fairly heavy.
The output to input port loss is 20 dB at the ends of it's coverage and 40 dB
at the tuned frequency. The 3 dB bandwidth is about 3 Mhz.
Do you have tuning instructions?

Joe

At 03:17 PM 11/22/2004 -0800, you wrote:

>At 11/21/2004 11:01 AM, you wrote:
>
> >Joe,
> >
> >I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
> >tech data on that circulator may be difficult.
>
>I know someone who has one of these & sold many more (if we're talking the
>same model; is it rather large for a VHF circulator?).  IIRC the
>performance on 2 meters was excellent: 0.3 dB forward loss & ~30 dB reverse.
>
>
> >The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself; it's
> >the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
> >rating.
>
>If you expect it to handle 100% reflected power, yes.  Circulators do have
>their own power ratings - you can't slap a 1 KW load on one & expect it to
>handle that much power.  The lesser of the two (circulator & load)
>determines the power it can handle under any conditions, but in a pinch you
>can put as much power in as the circulator can handle so long as the power
>reflected back does not exceed the rating of the load.  Of course if your
>antenna unexpectedly goes bad you'll fry the circulator load.
>
>
> >It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
> >efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
> >particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
> >any frequency in that range.
>
>Again, if we're talking about the same circulator, it's rather broad.  It
>worked just fine all across the 2 meter band & then some, with no tuning.
>
> >   Nearly all of the circulators I have taken
> >out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
> >either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
> >back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band.
> >This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
> >garnet ground to a specific tolerance.
> >
> >A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
> >circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
> >others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not suffice
> >for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.
>
>This is not true.  I've tuned all my circulators using only transmission
>measurements (forward & reverse).
>
>Bob NO6B
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Bob Dengler]

At 11/21/2004 11:01 AM, you wrote:

>Joe,
>
>I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
>tech data on that circulator may be difficult.

I know someone who has one of these & sold many more (if we're talking the 
same model; is it rather large for a VHF circulator?).  IIRC the 
performance on 2 meters was excellent: 0.3 dB forward loss & ~30 dB reverse.


>The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself; it's
>the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
>rating.

If you expect it to handle 100% reflected power, yes.  Circulators do have 
their own power ratings - you can't slap a 1 KW load on one & expect it to 
handle that much power.  The lesser of the two (circulator & load) 
determines the power it can handle under any conditions, but in a pinch you 
can put as much power in as the circulator can handle so long as the power 
reflected back does not exceed the rating of the load.  Of course if your 
antenna unexpectedly goes bad you'll fry the circulator load.


>It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
>efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
>particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
>any frequency in that range.

Again, if we're talking about the same circulator, it's rather broad.  It 
worked just fine all across the 2 meter band & then some, with no tuning.

>   Nearly all of the circulators I have taken
>out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
>either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
>back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band.
>This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
>garnet ground to a specific tolerance.
>
>A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
>circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
>others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not suffice
>for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.

This is not true.  I've tuned all my circulators using only transmission 
measurements (forward & reverse).

Bob NO6B






 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Tony lelieveld]

Hi John at all.

Here is a Sinclair link which has all the manuals for tuning instructions of
most, if not all, duplexers, filters, isolators etc.



73,
Tony VE3DWI

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Eric Lemmon]

John,

I have already sent a copy to Mike for posting.  I'm also sending you a
copy directly.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

"John J. Riddell" wrote:
> 
> Eric,   would you consider putting this info on the repeater builders web
> page...?
> 
> If that is not possible I'd like to have a copy thanks...
> 
> John VE3AMZ
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Eric Lemmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs
> 
> |
> | Joe,
> |
> | Actually, it's the opposite.  The return loss will be maximum (highest
> | numerically) at the operating frequency, meaning that the minimum energy
> | is being reflected.  It can be confusing to describe, because a proper
> | tuning of a circulator involves reversing the input and output for
> | making some tuning adjustments, and this reverses the readings.  One of
> | the best procedures for adjusting a circulator is published by
> | Sinclair.  I am sending you a copy in PDF.
> |
> | 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
> |
> | Joe Ciarcia wrote:
> | >
> | > Eric thanks. If I looked at return loss, would the circulator operating
> | > frequency be determined by the lowest return loss?
> | >
> | > Joe
> | >
> | > At 03:01 PM 11/21/2004, you wrote:
> | >
> | > >Joe,
> | > >
> | > >I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
> | > >tech data on that circulator may be difficult.
> | > >
> | > >The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself;
> it's
> | > >the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
> | > >rating.
> | > >
> | > >It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
> | > >efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
> | > >particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
> | > >any frequency in that range.  Nearly all of the circulators I have
> taken
> | > >out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
> | > >either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
> | > >back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band.
> | > >This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
> | > >garnet ground to a specific tolerance.
> | > >
> | > >A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
> | > >circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
> | > >others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not
> suffice
> | > >for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.
> | > >
> | > >73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
> | > >
> | > >Joe Ciarcia wrote:
> | > > >
> | > > > I have a circulator from RJ Communications Products Inc
> | > > > of Scottsdale, AZ. It's a model HC-152. It also has a logo
> | > > > on it marked IJ. It has a marking tape on it which indicates
> | > > > that the freq coverage is 140-180 MC. Can anyone confirm this
> | > > > and know what the power rating might be?
> | > > >
> | > > > Thanks, Joe
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | >
> | >
> | > Yahoo! Groups Links
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> | Yahoo! Groups Links
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>




 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[John J. Riddell]

Eric,   would you consider putting this info on the repeater builders web
page...?

If that is not possible I'd like to have a copy thanks...

John VE3AMZ


- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Lemmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs


|
| Joe,
|
| Actually, it's the opposite.  The return loss will be maximum (highest
| numerically) at the operating frequency, meaning that the minimum energy
| is being reflected.  It can be confusing to describe, because a proper
| tuning of a circulator involves reversing the input and output for
| making some tuning adjustments, and this reverses the readings.  One of
| the best procedures for adjusting a circulator is published by
| Sinclair.  I am sending you a copy in PDF.
|
| 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
|
| Joe Ciarcia wrote:
| >
| > Eric thanks. If I looked at return loss, would the circulator operating
| > frequency be determined by the lowest return loss?
| >
| > Joe
| >
| > At 03:01 PM 11/21/2004, you wrote:
| >
| > >Joe,
| > >
| > >I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
| > >tech data on that circulator may be difficult.
| > >
| > >The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself;
it's
| > >the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
| > >rating.
| > >
| > >It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
| > >efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
| > >particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
| > >any frequency in that range.  Nearly all of the circulators I have
taken
| > >out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
| > >either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
| > >back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band.
| > >This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
| > >garnet ground to a specific tolerance.
| > >
| > >A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
| > >circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
| > >others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not
suffice
| > >for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.
| > >
| > >73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
| > >
| > >Joe Ciarcia wrote:
| > > >
| > > > I have a circulator from RJ Communications Products Inc
| > > > of Scottsdale, AZ. It's a model HC-152. It also has a logo
| > > > on it marked IJ. It has a marking tape on it which indicates
| > > > that the freq coverage is 140-180 MC. Can anyone confirm this
| > > > and know what the power rating might be?
| > > >
| > > > Thanks, Joe
| > > >
| > > >
| > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
| > > >
| > > >
| > > >
| > > >
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > >Yahoo! Groups Links
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > >
| >
| >
| > Yahoo! Groups Links
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|
|





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Eric Lemmon]

Joe,

Actually, it's the opposite.  The return loss will be maximum (highest
numerically) at the operating frequency, meaning that the minimum energy
is being reflected.  It can be confusing to describe, because a proper
tuning of a circulator involves reversing the input and output for
making some tuning adjustments, and this reverses the readings.  One of
the best procedures for adjusting a circulator is published by
Sinclair.  I am sending you a copy in PDF.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

Joe Ciarcia wrote:
> 
> Eric thanks. If I looked at return loss, would the circulator operating
> frequency be determined by the lowest return loss?
> 
> Joe
> 
> At 03:01 PM 11/21/2004, you wrote:
> 
> >Joe,
> >
> >I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
> >tech data on that circulator may be difficult.
> >
> >The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself; it's
> >the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
> >rating.
> >
> >It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
> >efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
> >particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
> >any frequency in that range.  Nearly all of the circulators I have taken
> >out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
> >either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
> >back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band.
> >This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
> >garnet ground to a specific tolerance.
> >
> >A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
> >circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
> >others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not suffice
> >for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.
> >
> >73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
> >
> >Joe Ciarcia wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a circulator from RJ Communications Products Inc
> > > of Scottsdale, AZ. It's a model HC-152. It also has a logo
> > > on it marked IJ. It has a marking tape on it which indicates
> > > that the freq coverage is 140-180 MC. Can anyone confirm this
> > > and know what the power rating might be?
> > >
> > > Thanks, Joe
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>




 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Joe Ciarcia]

Eric thanks. If I looked at return loss, would the circulator operating
frequency be determined by the lowest return loss?

Joe


At 03:01 PM 11/21/2004, you wrote:

>Joe,
>
>I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
>tech data on that circulator may be difficult.
>
>The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself; it's
>the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
>rating.
>
>It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
>efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
>particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
>any frequency in that range.  Nearly all of the circulators I have taken
>out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
>either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
>back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band.
>This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
>garnet ground to a specific tolerance.
>
>A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
>circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
>others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not suffice
>for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.
>
>73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
>
>Joe Ciarcia wrote:
> >
> > I have a circulator from RJ Communications Products Inc
> > of Scottsdale, AZ. It's a model HC-152. It also has a logo
> > on it marked IJ. It has a marking tape on it which indicates
> > that the freq coverage is 140-180 MC. Can anyone confirm this
> > and know what the power rating might be?
> >
> > Thanks, Joe
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help with circulator specs

[Eric Lemmon]

Joe,

I suspect that RJ Communications is no longer in business, so finding
tech data on that circulator may be difficult.

The typical ferrite circulator doesn't dissipate much power itself; it's
the load(s) attached to the reject port that determines its power
rating.

It's important that a circulator be correctly tuned to operate
efficiently.  The label 140-180 MHz refers to the range of that
particular design, and should not be taken to mean that it will work at
any frequency in that range.  Nearly all of the circulators I have taken
out of service from the 152 MHz band would not tune more than 2 MHz
either side of the frequency marked on the unit.  I had to send them
back to the manufacturer to be reworked for operation on the 2m band. 
This rework involved an exchange of magnets, pole pieces, and a new
garnet ground to a specific tolerance.

A network analyzer is a must for tuning a circulator, especially a dual
circulator, since some measurements look for transmission peaks while
others look for return-loss peaks.  A spectrum analyzer will not suffice
for this tuning task, unless it is used with a return-loss bridge.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

Joe Ciarcia wrote:
> 
> I have a circulator from RJ Communications Products Inc
> of Scottsdale, AZ. It's a model HC-152. It also has a logo
> on it marked IJ. It has a marking tape on it which indicates
> that the freq coverage is 140-180 MC. Can anyone confirm this
> and know what the power rating might be?
> 
> Thanks, Joe
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>




 
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