RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
_ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Arck Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater At 02:13 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote: On 1/29/07, Jeff DePolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:jeff%40depolo.net net wrote: 3. Consider budgeting for an isolator for the transmitter and additional receiver filtering. A pass/reject duplexer like the Telewave TPRD-1556 does a great job of protecting your receiver from your own transmitter, but does very little as far as protecting you from anyone else, or anyone else from you. Without knowing what the RF landscape is like at your site, it's hard to say what will be necessary. Maybe nothing if it's a very quiet, isolated site. Maybe a lot if it's a crowded commercial site. We've had very good results with the TPRD-1556. Our customers are quite happy with them. And yes, a good circulator should be mandatory for every repeater placed in service. Don't forget that if you add an isolator that you also need a pass band cavity or low pass filter after the isolator too or you will have a worse mess than if you did not add the isolator. 73 Gary K4FMX
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
I'm not sure if you were looking for constructive criticism or not. If you were, here's mine. If not, the delete key is within finger's reach... 1 TKR-750 VHF Kenwood Repeater - $1350 1 KPG-91D Repeater Programming Kit - $119 1 TKR-PS1223 Kenwood Internal Power Supply - $169 1 PC24-NN Patch Cable (Repeater TX to Duplexer) - $31.50 1 PC24-NB Patch Cable (Repeater RX to Duplexer) - $26.35 1 PRD-1556 6 Cavity Pass-Reject Duplexer - $1859 1 PC95-400-NN Patch Cable (Duplexer to Polyphaser) - $54 1 IS-50NX-CI Polyphaser (Lighting Protection) - $62 100 feet of LMR-400 Feed Line $82 2 CC4-NM Coax Connector Type N Male - $25 1 ANT150D6-9 VHF 4-Bay Folded Dipole Antenna - $995 1 Setup, programming, and bench testing before shipping - $105 My comments would be: 1. AVOID the LMR coax!!! 100 feet of 1/2 Heliax with connectors is only going to cost you maybe $50 more than the prices shown. Feedline is NOT the place to cut corners. 2. I don't know what the PC??-?? patch cables are, but I'm guessing that they, too, are LMR400 (judging by the PC95-400-NN nomenclature). If that's the case, upgrade to either double-shielded silver-braid coax (RG142B, RG214, RG393, RG400), or are solid-shield cables such as Superflex-type Heliax. For the prices quoted, you could afford to buy the materials AND crimp tools to make your own RG400 or RG214 cables with silver-plated gold-pin telfon-dielectric connectors. 3. Consider budgeting for an isolator for the transmitter and additional receiver filtering. A pass/reject duplexer like the Telewave TPRD-1556 does a great job of protecting your receiver from your own transmitter, but does very little as far as protecting you from anyone else, or anyone else from you. Without knowing what the RF landscape is like at your site, it's hard to say what will be necessary. Maybe nothing if it's a very quiet, isolated site. Maybe a lot if it's a crowded commercial site. 4. I don't see a controller listed? If you intend to use the stock controller built into the TKR-750, be advised that you will still need a means of remote control (i.e. a control link above 222 MHz or landline), which makes an amateur-type controller better suited for the job. 5. Not being familiar with the Kenwood power supply, I don't know whether or not it has provisions for battery backup, but that's something that would probably be desirable on an ARES/RACES machine. I won't comment in detail about the prices other than to say it would be wise to shop around. 73 and good luck on your project. --- Jeff
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
Please consider one of these companies, before you spend your money: http://www.repeater-builder.com/products/ http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/kenwood.html http://www.hamtronics.com/ http://www.hiprorepeaters.com/ Kevin Custer Christopher Hodgdon wrote: I researched a lot about repeaters online and in some cases found a lot of useful information, while in others, nothing but junk. No this is not going to be two mobiles wired to worked together Please feel free to relay your exp., which does both commericial and amateur repeaters. Total For Project - $4877.85
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
On 1/29/07, Jeff DePolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. Consider budgeting for an isolator for the transmitter and additional receiver filtering. A pass/reject duplexer like the Telewave TPRD-1556 does a great job of protecting your receiver from your own transmitter, but does very little as far as protecting you from anyone else, or anyone else from you. Without knowing what the RF landscape is like at your site, it's hard to say what will be necessary. Maybe nothing if it's a very quiet, isolated site. Maybe a lot if it's a crowded commercial site. Damn, I missed the isolator Jeff... and it's one of my pet peeves too. LOL! 4. I don't see a controller listed? If you intend to use the stock controller built into the TKR-750, be advised that you will still need a means of remote control (i.e. a control link above 222 MHz or landline), which makes an amateur-type controller better suited for the job. Great catch. 5. Not being familiar with the Kenwood power supply, I don't know whether or not it has provisions for battery backup, but that's something that would probably be desirable on an ARES/RACES machine. In my experience I'll never ever do battery backup ever again. I much prefer on-site generators with automatic transfer switches... but hey... that's a luxury few can afford. We got hideously lucky this last year: - The agency that owns one building installed a building-wide generator fueled (by them) from a giant propane tank. - Another commercial site we're on has always had a propane-fueled generator but it was in disrepair and they fixed it in June before selling the site back to a former owner, a national company... the site changes hands faster than I change socks, I swear... (and yes I do that every day!) - The third site hosts a commercial broadcaster who has a Ham for a lead engineer who graciously offered us a drop from his power panel and gave us our own breaker, thank goodness for the kindness of other hams! - And the fourth had a pad, a fuel-tank, and the right transfer switch gear for the entire building and another ham in another club found and procured a generator for FREE from another entity on the mountain who was upgrading, and didn't want to pay to haul the old unit off the mountain. He got it moved to the pad, hooked up, and installed for all to use at the site... and the fuel tank still had some fuel, I think. Amazing ham ingenuity and staying on top of it there. So... our club went from having one commercial site that had a questionable generator in disrepair and not fueled -- to having all four sites on generator power and tested in a single year. Talk about LUCKY! It made me think about buying a lottery ticket. (We all know that the lottery is just a tax for people bad at math, right?) I won't comment in detail about the prices other than to say it would be wise to shop around. Speaking of shopping around -- someone really should give a plug for our gracious website hosts... DEFINITELY get a quote from the folks at REPEATER BUILDER Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
On 1/29/07, Christopher Hodgdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main setup that we received a quote for is the follow: 1 TKR-750 VHF Kenwood Repeater - $1350 1 KPG-91D Repeater Programming Kit - $119 1 TKR-PS1223 Kenwood Internal Power Supply - $169 1 PC24-NN Patch Cable (Repeater TX to Duplexer) - $31.50 1 PC24-NB Patch Cable (Repeater RX to Duplexer) - $26.35 1 PRD-1556 6 Cavity Pass-Reject Duplexer - $1859 1 PC95-400-NN Patch Cable (Duplexer to Polyphaser) - $54 1 IS-50NX-CI Polyphaser (Lighting Protection) - $62 100 feet of LMR-400 Feed Line $82 2 CC4-NM Coax Connector Type N Male - $25 1 ANT150D6-9 VHF 4-Bay Folded Dipole Antenna - $995 1 Setup, programming, and bench testing before shipping - $105 Total For Project - $4877.85 I applaud you doing your homework ahead of time, Chris. Countless people have shown up here on the list over the few years I've watched and learned from people here smarter than myself, who think that slapping something together will warrant them years of service and good performance. Some comments on your list above: - I don't know who's part numbers those are on the list, so it's hard to see exactly what you're purchasing there. Do you have the real manufacturer's names of those products. Those are the names most of us know these things by. - Patch cables: Make sure they're at a minimum double-shielded silver teflon or better -- you want all the RF to stay INSIDE those cables. I can't stress enough how much good quality RF cabling is needed in repeater service. - Great job thinking about lightning protection ahead of time! More comments on that below. Polyphaser is good, if the grounding system in place is correct at the site. That is a topic too broad for this reply, but look in the RB website for more information from a lot of sources on proper grounding techniques for lightning protection. If you're planning on installing in racks (you don't say here -- and that's another expense you might need to think about), you'll need to know how the site grounding system works to properly ground the cabinets or leave them floating, etc... for example, at one of our sites, we purchased the equivalent of Trex decking material and made a platform for our three rack cabinets to get them off the concrete floor so there would be both less chance that they could arc over and damage the floor/via grounding to the concrete itself in a lightning strike, and also to provide an inch or so of water ingress protection in case the room ever flooded for any reason. All cables to those cabinets come in through the top of the cabinets, and the grounding system is extended to have the cabinets themselves rise and fall with the voltage potential of the tower itself, if the tower were to take a direct strike. Will your polyphaser be mounted on a dedicated RF entrance panel (typically made out of copper plate and grounded via very wide copper strap or connected to an overhead halo system, or will it be mounted in the cabinet or elsewhere? Again, too much detail to go into in one message -- but something to think about. - I see you have LMR400 listed. Now this will always start a debate here, but for the sake of completeness -- there are many people here who've had bad problems with the LMR series of cables when used in duplexed radio service (transmitting and receiving at the same time on the same antenna/cable system). The gist of it is that unlike more traditional hardline, the LMR cable uses a braid-over-foil technology that in at least some people's viewpoint, can become loose/noisy enough (especially if it's moving at all -- make sure you budget for high quality tie-downs or at least UV-insensitive tie-wraps to secure ALL cabling on the tower) to create crackling, noise, desense and/or other issues. I would recommend (and others probably would also, but some would disagree) that the safe approach is to use a more traditional hardline for your tower run. LMR might be do-able from the duplexer to the polyphaser panel or similar... you might get away with it up the tower too... but generally if you want NO problems... buy 1/2 or larger hardline and run that instead of LMR400. Others can, and probably will, comment on this, but if I were putting together a nice system like that, I would avoid LMR cables like the plague. Spend a little more money on good hardline and connectors. Cost for new will be about triple your estimate for the LMR400 and connectors. I feel it's a you get what you pay for type of thing. Good hardline can be found on the used market, but you may need to test it and make sure it has never had a water ingress problem, and/or has never been bent beyond its designed maximum bend radius. (Hardline recovered from towers is typically brought down in such a way that it's damaged internally by hanging it by itself.) - The Kenwood repeater isn't really a very high-powered repeater. After duplexer/cable losses, you're not going to have a whole lot of RF
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
At 01:56 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote: 1 KPG-91D Repeater Programming Kit - $119 ---Allow me to clarify a misconception here. One does NOT need the KPG-46 Programming Cable in order to program the TKR 750 (or 751, 851 or 850 for that matter). All it takes is a standard serial cable. Also, the KPG-91D is available for MUCH LESS than $119 as well. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of the world famous RC210 Repeater Controller and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/arcom/index.html Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
At 02:13 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote: On 1/29/07, Jeff DePolo mailto:jeff%40depolo.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. Consider budgeting for an isolator for the transmitter and additional receiver filtering. A pass/reject duplexer like the Telewave TPRD-1556 does a great job of protecting your receiver from your own transmitter, but does very little as far as protecting you from anyone else, or anyone else from you. Without knowing what the RF landscape is like at your site, it's hard to say what will be necessary. Maybe nothing if it's a very quiet, isolated site. Maybe a lot if it's a crowded commercial site. We've had very good results with the TPRD-1556. Our customers are quite happy with them. And yes, a good circulator should be mandatory for every repeater placed in service. 5. Not being familiar with the Kenwood power supply, I don't know whether or not it has provisions for battery backup, but that's something that would probably be desirable on an ARES/RACES machine. The internal Kenwood supply is a switcher, which is quite clean. And the TKR itself takes care of battery backup (and charging). Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of the world famous RC210 Repeater Controller and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/arcom/index.html Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
Speaking of shopping around -- someone really should give a plug for our gracious website hosts... DEFINITELY get a quote from the folks at REPEATER BUILDER Nate WY0X I ditto that last commet by Nate. I have used the guys at repeater-builder and have been very happy with both Kevin and Scott. Their prices are not out of line, either. If I were you I'd start a conversation with them about your proposed system and let them take it from there. I will definately use them in the future. Good luck with your system. Don, KD9PT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
Ditto on Kevin and Scott, and Many others on this Group, Scott build up My 220 Micor Repeater in the Process of Him building a New House, and Moving Even let me make payments while He was doing it. The only Problem is When they build them and you Put it up at a Site, You Never get to see it Anymore the Repeater Just keeps on working. , So I Just stay at home and Listen how happy the Users are. Some actually think I did all the work; well I did put the Coax and Power Supply and Voice Id , and that is So Clear I have had People ask Me why I ignore them When they have Called Me. Don KA9QJG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
Surge protection on the feedline and none on the AC power is the same as none at all. I'm assuming a single-point ground system with adequate ground rods and radial system (but really shouldn't assume that since it wasn't mentioned). Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater On 1/29/07, Christopher Hodgdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main setup that we received a quote for is the follow: 1 TKR-750 VHF Kenwood Repeater - $1350 1 KPG-91D Repeater Programming Kit - $119 1 TKR-PS1223 Kenwood Internal Power Supply - $169 1 PC24-NN Patch Cable (Repeater TX to Duplexer) - $31.50 1 PC24-NB Patch Cable (Repeater RX to Duplexer) - $26.35 1 PRD-1556 6 Cavity Pass-Reject Duplexer - $1859 1 PC95-400-NN Patch Cable (Duplexer to Polyphaser) - $54 1 IS-50NX-CI Polyphaser (Lighting Protection) - $62 100 feet of LMR-400 Feed Line $82 2 CC4-NM Coax Connector Type N Male - $25 1 ANT150D6-9 VHF 4-Bay Folded Dipole Antenna - $995 1 Setup, programming, and bench testing before shipping - $105 Total For Project - $4877.85
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater
Thank you for the kind words fellows. We always try our best to make people happy. I question at times when I build machines and then never hear another word about them. It just makes me wonder if at some hamfest someone is just going to haul off and knock me out. I guess no response in business indicates a good response!?! Ducking for cover. HIHI Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Road Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Setting Up A New Repeater Speaking of shopping around -- someone really should give a plug for our gracious website hosts... DEFINITELY get a quote from the folks at REPEATER BUILDER Nate WY0X I ditto that last commet by Nate. I have used the guys at repeater-builder and have been very happy with both Kevin and Scott. Their prices are not out of line, either. If I were you I'd start a conversation with them about your proposed system and let them take it from there. I will definately use them in the future. Good luck with your system. Don, KD9PT Couldn't say it any better. They've spent more years in repeater systems than some of us are old. These guys know their stuff! Laryn K8TVZ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.14/658 - Release Date: 1/29/2007 2:49 PM
