Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[drew Roberts]

Frank,

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 8:45 AM Frank Christel  wrote:

> Drew,
>
> I am grateful for your instructions showing how to change the format
> Rivendell uses to internally save audio. But we’re fine with a default of
> PCM16, especially in 2020 when, as Fred points out, storage is cheap.


My mistake, I thought you wanted mp2 for storage on account of sorting your
library on a Pi... (Perhaps I was not paying close enough attention and
since that was what we did on our one Rivendell Pi test machine, I made an
unwarranted assumption somewhere.)


> Linear WAV has been the house standard at Public Radio Tulsa since the
> beginning of automated time.
>
> In my tests with importing various MP2 files, I did experience some
> anomalies. Most imported without problems, but after churning away, some
> displayed a “Internal error” dialog and wouldn’t load into a cart. These
> are MP2s which play fine outside of Rivendell.
>

If you know which ones they are, and there aren't too many of them, you
could try converting them to wav outside or Rivendell and then importing.

>
> Does Rivendell maintain an error log? I couldn’t locate it or generate one
> through the Reports module.
>

I am not good with Rivendell logging. Perhaps someone more capable can
answer.

>
> Frank
>

all the best,

drew


>
> _
>
> On 2/29/2020, at 10:06 AM, drew Roberts  wrote:
>
> Right, but if you didn't change the format for your library storage desire
> beforehand, what you did was import an MP2 cut, turning it into a pcm
> ("wave") cut during the import. You would have needed to change your
> library format so that when importing you end up with MP2 in a .wav
> container…
>
> _
>
> On 2/28/2020, at 11:02 AM, Fred Gleason  wrote:
>
> Here in 2020, MPEG audio encoding for storage purposes is fast receding
> into the mists of history. Unless one has a very specific reason otherwise
> —e.g. a huge existing library of already-encoded material — the usage of
> PCM16 or PCM24 is *strongly* encouraged over MPEG. Storage is dirt cheap
> these days, while MPEG incurs irreversible quality loss; there is really no
> reason anymore to employ it for the sake of reducing storage requirements.
>
> _
>
> On 2/27/2020, at 5:09 PM, drew Roberts  wrote:
>
> click manage hosts.
> highlight the host in question and click edit.
> click rdlibrary.
> about halfway down change Format: from PCM16 to MPEG Layer 2.
> save everything until you are out of rdadmin
> start rdlibrary and import a new song into a new cart.
> try to play the cart.
> if it plays...
> from a terminal:
> file /var/snd/99_001.wav
>
>

-- 
Enjoy the *Paradise Island Cam* playing
*Bahamian Or Nuttin* - https://www.paradiseislandcam.com/
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Frank Christel]

Drew,

I am grateful for your instructions showing how to change the format Rivendell 
uses to internally save audio. But we’re fine with a default of PCM16, 
especially in 2020 when, as Fred points out, storage is cheap. Linear WAV has 
been the house standard at Public Radio Tulsa since the beginning of automated 
time.

In my tests with importing various MP2 files, I did experience some anomalies. 
Most imported without problems, but after churning away, some displayed a 
“Internal error” dialog and wouldn’t load into a cart. These are MP2s which 
play fine outside of Rivendell.

Does Rivendell maintain an error log? I couldn’t locate it or generate one 
through the Reports module.

Frank

_

On 2/29/2020, at 10:06 AM, drew Roberts  wrote:

Right, but if you didn't change the format for your library storage desire 
beforehand, what you did was import an MP2 cut, turning it into a pcm ("wave") 
cut during the import. You would have needed to change your library format so 
that when importing you end up with MP2 in a .wav container… 

_

On 2/28/2020, at 11:02 AM, Fred Gleason  wrote:

Here in 2020, MPEG audio encoding for storage purposes is fast receding into 
the mists of history. Unless one has a very specific reason otherwise —e.g. a 
huge existing library of already-encoded material — the usage of PCM16 or PCM24 
is *strongly* encouraged over MPEG. Storage is dirt cheap these days, while 
MPEG incurs irreversible quality loss; there is really no reason anymore to 
employ it for the sake of reducing storage requirements.

_

On 2/27/2020, at 5:09 PM, drew Roberts  wrote:

click manage hosts.
highlight the host in question and click edit.
click rdlibrary.
about halfway down change Format: from PCM16 to MPEG Layer 2.
save everything until you are out of rdadmin
start rdlibrary and import a new song into a new cart.
try to play the cart.
if it plays...
from a terminal:
file /var/snd/99_001.wav

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Lorne Tyndale]

Frank,Glad to hear it worked as expected, it is pretty straight forward.> Just what can’t Rivendell (and Linux) do?Right now some of the biggest area that I see which could use some additional capabilities is remote access, mainly the ability to do remote voice tracking (preferably through a web interface) and having a web interface for log editing.On the plus side there have been a few work around options that I've seen for this, such as using a combination of VPN, VNC, and VOIP technologies to do remote voice tracking and remote access, and I seem to recall someone was working on web-based interfaces for log generation and editing.  Also the web API provides a great framework for this type of development.Overall I agree that Rivendell + Linux is a great combination.  It also has the benefit of not crashing/freezing up the way that Win based systems like to do.Lorne Tyndale
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Frank Christel]

  "It’s alive!!!”

That was so simple. 

I opened RDLibrary, clicked Add, created a new cart, clicked Import/Export, 
selected a MP2 cut, acknowledged “Import complete!”, clicked OK to save cart 
changes, and auditioned using the play button. 

Rivenberries, running the Edge Radio distro, natively import and play MP2 
files. No ASI card required.

Amazing to watch for someone coming from the world of Simians. 

Just what can’t Rivendell (and Linux) do?

_

On 2/27/2020, at 5:09 PM, drew Roberts  wrote:

Experiment with this yourself. On a test box, say the RasPi Rivendell...

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 28, 2020, at 09:06, Alan Smith  wrote:

> 1) Besides Time compression you get:
> 2) Hardware encode/decode, offloading the workload from the CPU (not really 
> an advantage anymore with today's modern processors)
> 3) Balanced Audio I/Os
> 4) Multi-Output on a single card.

Let’s not forget:

5) RFI Immunity

Which can be a MAJOR factor when your studio is sitting next to a 50 kW 
broadcast transmitter. Many if not most ‘prosumer’ audio interfaces will have 
significant problems dealing with RFI in such settings. ASI specifically 
designs and tests their products to work in those environments. “Built For 
Broadcast!”

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| |
| -- Cicero   |
|-|___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 28, 2020, at 05:36, Timothy Elwell  wrote:

> Fred or Cowboy can probably give the best answer on this. But, if I recall 
> correctly, you do still need the ASI for MP3 as it's a licensing issue with 
> software MP3 due to patents.

Not anymore! The last MPEG Layer III patent expired on 16 April 2017; since 
then, that codec has been unencumbered and patent-clear.

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| |
| -- Cicero   |
|-|___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 27, 2020, at 17:43, Frank Christel  wrote:

> Noob question: why are ASI cards required to play MP2 files?

Answer: they (mostly) are not. Rivendell has had an integrated software codec 
for realtime capture and play-out of MPEG Layer II when using ALSA or JACK for 
close to ten years now. 


> From the “Features and Benefits” list on the Rivendell home page: "Support 
> for both PCM16 and MPEG Layer 2 audio formats (MPEG Layer 2 support requires 
> the use of select sound cards available from AudioScience Inc.).”

Antique, wrong and incorrect! (Got a URL for this page? I’ll get it corrected.)


> (ASI cards are required by BSI’s Simian to play MP2s on Windows, too.)
> 
> Is the MP2 format so old there are no software decoders? Or is MP2 processing 
> so intensive in real time that it must be offloaded to an external sound 
> card? 

‘Back in the day’ when hard disc automation was first becoming a ‘thing’ (late 
1980s) realtime MPEG processing was indeed a challenge for many Intel-based 
systems (most CPUs were 286/386, with 486s just beginning to appear in the 
marketplace). There were also patent issues, which meant substantial licensing 
fees for implementation of the MPEG-1 standard. For all of these reasons, 
encapsulating the MPEG-1 codec into the sound card made good engineering as 
well as business sense. It was Antex Electronics that made the first generation 
of such cards (many longtime BSI users can probably remember running Antex 
SX-36 cards in their ‘WaveStation’ systems). In the early 90s, a group of 
ex-employees from Antex formed AudioScience Inc. and commenced the manufacture 
of the series of sound cards optimized for broadcast use that continues to this 
day. (There was/is also Digigram, a French-based company that makes similar 
products, but I am not familiar with their history).

By the time the Rivendell project started in the early 2000s, it was becoming 
technically feasible to handle realtime Layer II processing in the main CPU. 
Rivendell v1.x didn’t do it though, mostly due to programmer (yours truly) 
laziness. However, it became a major goal for the v2.x update (primarily so 
ALSA and JACK setups could work with an MPEG encoded library), and duly 
appeared with the release of v2.0.1 on 5 April 2011. The exception is for 
certain ASI cards; the ASI-5XXX series lacks hardware MPEG support, and the 
code for supporting ASI cards was never modified to use a software codec 
(programmer laziness again!), so if you’re running one of those cards, you will 
indeed not have “MP2” support in the main Rivendell library.

Here in 2020, MPEG audio encoding for storage purposes is fast receding into 
the mists of history. Unless one has a very specific reason otherwise —e.g. a 
huge existing library of already-encoded material — the usage of PCM16 or PCM24 
is *strongly* encouraged over MPEG. Storage is dirt cheap these days, while 
MPEG incurs irreversible quality loss; there is really no reason anymore to 
employ it for the sake of reducing storage requirements.


> Is there a way for a RasPi Rivendale node to play MP2s without first 
> converting the files to WAV?

It should ‘just work’, assuming that Rivendell has been compiled to support it 
and that the relevant codec libraries (TwoLAME and MAD) are available.

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
|All progress is based upon a universal innate desire of every|
|organism to live beyond its income.  |
| |
|  -- Samuel Butler   |
|  "Notebooks"|
|-|___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Lorne Tyndale]

Hi,

Fred or Cowboy can correct me if I'm incorrect, but just to comment, for
several years now with Rivendell MP2 for the library storage and
playback has been available in software with any sound card.  This
change was made when the patent expired.  For those with ASI cards the
encoding / decoding can be done on the hardware, but with modern systems
this isn't much of an issue - current systems have more then enough
processing power to encode / decode MP2 in software without difficulty.

MP3 has been discussed several times on this list serve, there was even
back in the early days an unofficial patch you could apply to the source
to allow you to use mp3 as the storage format for your library.  You
could make your station sound like an MP3 on the air, including digital
MP3 artifacts and all!  Perfect for the ipod generation.

Aside from the legal issues which have been mentioned, the other part of
the discussion was that MP3 was never designed to be a compression
algorithm to be used in broadcast applications.  Often when mp3's are
played through the rest of a broadcast audio chain they come out the
other end sounding like mush.  MP2 on the other hand has been used in
broadcast applications since the mid 90's and actually survives a
broadcast chain relatively well.  Rivendell can import and export MP3's,
converting them to the storage format you've selected for your library. 
But for the actual storage format of the library you're limited to
linear and/or MP2.

These days the real benefit of ASI cards is the time scaling and
balanced IO, plus of course they sound good.

Lorne Tyndale

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Frank Christel]

In the course of discussions about our research for a Windows 10 automation 
alternative, I don’t recall sharing the distro we discovered through a Google 
search. 

This is what started us down the path toward Rivendell. It was created by the 
Edge Radio folks in Australia:

https://www.edgeradio.org.au/rivendell-on-raspberry-pi.html

Use Etcher to flash the image onto a SD, plug it into a Pi, and be amazed. 

No build is necessary to create Rivenberries. It's fast and stable even on Pi 3 
with 1 Gb of memory.

Frank Christel

_

On 2/27/2020, at 5:10 PM, Timothy Elwell  wrote:

I haven't tried it with a Pi yet, but have been working on that build to try 
MP2 on the Pi for a specific use case I have.

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Alan Smith]

1) Besides Time compression you get:
2) Hardware encode/decode, offloading the workload from the CPU (not 
really an advantage anymore with today's modern processors)

3) Balanced Audio I/Os
4) Multi-Output on a single card.

Really 2 isn't a big deal.  There are other cards that provide 
multi-balanced outs, so 3 & 4 isn't a big deal either.


Personally, I still prefer ASI cards, and usually scan ebay once in 
while to pick up one on the cheap.


Again, personal opinion, but I still prefer internal cards to external 
ones, though each has some advantages.


My first preference would be ASI, my second goto was the Delta 1010 
[long out of production], but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent on 
the market, not counting USB/Firewire interfaces.  I have ZERO 
experience with USB/Firewire external units.  Maybe the tech has matured 
with them?


-Alan

On 2/28/2020 7:46 AM, Frank Christel wrote:

I’m stunned. I thought native MP2 playback would be a stumbling block in our 
adoption of Rivendell.

NPR and PRX content comes to us as MP2 files. Simian requires ASI cards for MP2 
playback and Public Radio Tulsa has purchased a couple of dozen over the years.

Arguably, they’re the best cards for professional broadcasters. But their cost 
has limited the number of editing and traffic workstations.

And for the potential of playing MP2s on “Rivenberries” as John Penovich calls 
them? Pure icing on the cake.

— Chester mentions time compression as an ASI card advantage. For what other 
reasons would one choose an ASI card over a less expensive sound card for use 
with Rivendell?

— What other sound cards or USB audio interfaces play well with Linux?

Frank Christel

(FWIW: A few decades ago, Skip Pizzi of NPR assembled a cadre of music 
directors, program directors, engineers, and managers to choose the encoding 
standard for with the new NPR digital satellite system. A/B listening tests 
were held over a couple of days in Kansas City, I think. I was there with my 
trusty Sony 7506 ‘phones. 128 kbps MP2 mono and 256 kbps MP2 stereo emerged as 
the winners. That was surprising, because even back then the codec was 
considered old. Even though MP2 isn't terribly efficient, it did the least 
damage and reduced the bitstream enough permit multiple digital channels to be 
sent through a transponder. It’s still the NPR standard today.)

_

On 2/27/2020, at 4:50 PM, Chester Graham  wrote:

Rivendell decodes mp2 files just fine, we store in that format and playout over 
an icecast stream without any problems.

IF you want the advanced features of Rivendell like time compress to fit a 
certain time length etc, you need the ASI cards.
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev



___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Frank Christel]

I’m stunned. I thought native MP2 playback would be a stumbling block in our 
adoption of Rivendell. 

NPR and PRX content comes to us as MP2 files. Simian requires ASI cards for MP2 
playback and Public Radio Tulsa has purchased a couple of dozen over the years.

Arguably, they’re the best cards for professional broadcasters. But their cost 
has limited the number of editing and traffic workstations.

And for the potential of playing MP2s on “Rivenberries” as John Penovich calls 
them? Pure icing on the cake.

— Chester mentions time compression as an ASI card advantage. For what other 
reasons would one choose an ASI card over a less expensive sound card for use 
with Rivendell? 

— What other sound cards or USB audio interfaces play well with Linux?

Frank Christel

(FWIW: A few decades ago, Skip Pizzi of NPR assembled a cadre of music 
directors, program directors, engineers, and managers to choose the encoding 
standard for with the new NPR digital satellite system. A/B listening tests 
were held over a couple of days in Kansas City, I think. I was there with my 
trusty Sony 7506 ‘phones. 128 kbps MP2 mono and 256 kbps MP2 stereo emerged as 
the winners. That was surprising, because even back then the codec was 
considered old. Even though MP2 isn't terribly efficient, it did the least 
damage and reduced the bitstream enough permit multiple digital channels to be 
sent through a transponder. It’s still the NPR standard today.)

_

On 2/27/2020, at 4:50 PM, Chester Graham  wrote:

Rivendell decodes mp2 files just fine, we store in that format and playout over 
an icecast stream without any problems.

IF you want the advanced features of Rivendell like time compress to fit a 
certain time length etc, you need the ASI cards.
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Richard Elen]

On 28-Feb-20 10:36, Timothy Elwell wrote:
you do still need the ASI for MP3 as it's a licensing issue with 
software MP3 due to patents.


I notice from 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#Licensing,_ownership_and_legislation :


"... patents required to implement MP3 expired in most countries by 
December 2012, 21 years after the publication of ISO CD 11172..."


and

"An exception is the United States... If only the known MP3 patents 
filed by December 1992 are considered, then MP3 decoding has been 
patent-free in the US since 22 September 2015, when U.S. Patent 
5,812,672, which had a PCT filing in October 1992, expired. If the 
longest-running patent mentioned in the aforementioned references is 
taken as a measure, then the MP3 technology became patent-free in the 
United States on 16 April 2017, when U.S. Patent 6,009,399, held and 
administered by Technicolor, expired. As a result, many free and 
open-source software projects, such as the Fedora operating system, have 
decided to start shipping MP3 support by default, and users will no 
longer have to resort to installing unofficial packages maintained by 
third party software repositories for MP3 playback or encoding."


(Wikipedia is not necessarily an accurate reference and I am not a lawyer.)

R

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Timothy Elwell]

Fred or Cowboy can probably give the best answer on this. But, if I 
recall correctly, you do still need the ASI for MP3 as it's a licensing 
issue with software MP3 due to patents. Since the ASI cards have 
hardware MP2/3 encoders and decoders present, the licensing has been 
paid through the purchase of the cards. (It used to be you could only 
play MP2 and MP3 with ASI until the MP2 patent expired). In order for 
Fred to include the ability without ASI cards, there would have to be 
licensing paid to the patent holders of MP3 technology, which opens up a 
whole huge can of worms and problems. Hence, why ASI cards are needed 
for MP3 and why MP2 is in the software now.


That is my understanding. I haven't kept up as well in the last year or 
two as I've been working on other projects, but that is my last 
understanding I knew. Again, Fred will have an absolute and 100% correct 
answer.


On 2/27/20 8:41 PM, Alan Smith wrote:
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember asking an almost similar 
question when I first started with Rivendell.


It is my understanding that you do not need ASI cards to play either 
mp3 or mp3 cards.  You might have needed them 'back in the day', but 
these days I believe ASI cards only gets you the following features:


I know you are definitely correct with gaining the hardware 
encode/decode as well as time scaling. Those are definitely features 
granted with the ASI cards.



Time Scaled Audio.
Hardware MPEG encode/decode.


As I understand it, it's not horsepower, but licensing that's the issue 
with it. It'll all come one day when the MPEG patents all expire. While 
there are certain use cases where the MPEG formats are useful, most will 
argue with the cheap hard drive prices these days, they're not needed 
and you're better off starting the audio chain with lossless 
uncompressed audio. I have had uses for both and it's nice to have the 
choice depending on your needs.


Tim



Thats about it.  Hardware encode/decode shouldn't be an issue-todays 
processors are more than capable of doing the job in realtime with 
plenty of 'horsepower' left to spare.  Now it *might* be the hardware 
encode/decoding produces better quality results, I'm not sure though.  
I know in the video side of things hardware 
decoding/encoding>software.  May not apply to audio though???


-Alan


___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Alan Smith]

My last reply should have read "ASI not required to play MP3 or MP2 
Audio"...


On 2/27/2020 6:02 PM, drew Roberts wrote:

Well, I have been thinking further and trying to remember...

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Timothy Elwell 
mailto:telw...@pilotproductions.net>> 
wrote:


Hi Frank,

ASI cards should only required for MP3. MP2's patent expired a
number of
years ago and was added to Rivendell as soon as the patent
expired. MP2
should be usable on any recent RD system (I don't remember the exact
version it was added, but I know it's worked well for me on v2+).

For the format it stored in, as I understand it, the MP2 is stored
in a
wav container, not as a wav format. I haven't tried it with a Pi yet,
but have been working on that build to try MP2 on the Pi for a
specific
use case I have.


IIRC, we had it running on a Pi and the files were stored as MP2.wav

It has been a long time since that machine was powered up though so I 
may have mis-remembered something. Still worth a quick experiment on 
that Pi.



Others are more informative than I am, I know. But hopefully this
will
help you a little.


all the best,

drew


Tim

On 2/27/20 4:43 PM, Frank Christel wrote:
> Noob question: why are ASI cards required to play MP2 files?
>
>  From the “Features and Benefits” list on the Rivendell home
page: "Support for both PCM16 and MPEG Layer 2 audio formats (MPEG
Layer 2 support requires the use of select sound cards available
from AudioScience Inc.).”
>
> (ASI cards are required by BSI’s Simian to play MP2s on Windows,
too.)
>
> Is the MP2 format so old there are no software decoders? Or is
MP2 processing so intensive in real time that it must be offloaded
to an external sound card?
>
> Is there a way for a RasPi Rivendale node to play MP2s without
first converting the files to WAV?
>
> Frank Christel
>
> __
>
> On 2/26/2020, at 5:49 PM, Fred Gleason mailto:fr...@paravelsystems.com>> wrote:
>
> ...Not all ASI cards are supported in any given driver version.
For CentOS 7 setups, we provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and
4.20.21 (with v4.20.21 being installed by default). Any ASI-5XXX
or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with the orange colored mu-metal
shields) should be able to work with one of those drivers,
although sometimes some experimentation is required to find out
which driver does the trick… That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones
with the blue mu-metal shields) are NOT supported in Rivendell at all.
>
> ___
> Rivendell-dev mailing list
> Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org

> http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org

http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev



--
Enjoy the *Paradise Island Cam* playing
*Bahamian Or Nuttin* - https://www.paradiseislandcam.com/

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev



___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Alan Smith]

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember asking an almost similar 
question when I first started with Rivendell.


It is my understanding that you do not need ASI cards to play either mp3 
or mp3 cards.  You might have needed them 'back in the day', but these 
days I believe ASI cards only gets you the following features:


Time Scaled Audio.
Hardware MPEG encode/decode.

Thats about it.  Hardware encode/decode shouldn't be an issue-todays 
processors are more than capable of doing the job in realtime with 
plenty of 'horsepower' left to spare.  Now it *might* be the hardware 
encode/decoding produces better quality results, I'm not sure though.  I 
know in the video side of things hardware decoding/encoding>software.  
May not apply to audio though???


-Alan

On 2/27/2020 6:02 PM, drew Roberts wrote:

Well, I have been thinking further and trying to remember...

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Timothy Elwell 
mailto:telw...@pilotproductions.net>> 
wrote:


Hi Frank,

ASI cards should only required for MP3. MP2's patent expired a
number of
years ago and was added to Rivendell as soon as the patent
expired. MP2
should be usable on any recent RD system (I don't remember the exact
version it was added, but I know it's worked well for me on v2+).

For the format it stored in, as I understand it, the MP2 is stored
in a
wav container, not as a wav format. I haven't tried it with a Pi yet,
but have been working on that build to try MP2 on the Pi for a
specific
use case I have.


IIRC, we had it running on a Pi and the files were stored as MP2.wav

It has been a long time since that machine was powered up though so I 
may have mis-remembered something. Still worth a quick experiment on 
that Pi.



Others are more informative than I am, I know. But hopefully this
will
help you a little.


all the best,

drew


Tim

On 2/27/20 4:43 PM, Frank Christel wrote:
> Noob question: why are ASI cards required to play MP2 files?
>
>  From the “Features and Benefits” list on the Rivendell home
page: "Support for both PCM16 and MPEG Layer 2 audio formats (MPEG
Layer 2 support requires the use of select sound cards available
from AudioScience Inc.).”
>
> (ASI cards are required by BSI’s Simian to play MP2s on Windows,
too.)
>
> Is the MP2 format so old there are no software decoders? Or is
MP2 processing so intensive in real time that it must be offloaded
to an external sound card?
>
> Is there a way for a RasPi Rivendale node to play MP2s without
first converting the files to WAV?
>
> Frank Christel
>
> __
>
> On 2/26/2020, at 5:49 PM, Fred Gleason mailto:fr...@paravelsystems.com>> wrote:
>
> ...Not all ASI cards are supported in any given driver version.
For CentOS 7 setups, we provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and
4.20.21 (with v4.20.21 being installed by default). Any ASI-5XXX
or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with the orange colored mu-metal
shields) should be able to work with one of those drivers,
although sometimes some experimentation is required to find out
which driver does the trick… That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones
with the blue mu-metal shields) are NOT supported in Rivendell at all.
>
> ___
> Rivendell-dev mailing list
> Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org

> http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org

http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev



--
Enjoy the *Paradise Island Cam* playing
*Bahamian Or Nuttin* - https://www.paradiseislandcam.com/

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev



___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Timothy Elwell]

Hi Frank,

ASI cards should only required for MP3. MP2's patent expired a number of 
years ago and was added to Rivendell as soon as the patent expired. MP2 
should be usable on any recent RD system (I don't remember the exact 
version it was added, but I know it's worked well for me on v2+).


For the format it stored in, as I understand it, the MP2 is stored in a 
wav container, not as a wav format. I haven't tried it with a Pi yet, 
but have been working on that build to try MP2 on the Pi for a specific 
use case I have.


Others are more informative than I am, I know. But hopefully this will 
help you a little.


Tim

On 2/27/20 4:43 PM, Frank Christel wrote:

Noob question: why are ASI cards required to play MP2 files?

 From the “Features and Benefits” list on the Rivendell home page: "Support for 
both PCM16 and MPEG Layer 2 audio formats (MPEG Layer 2 support requires the use of 
select sound cards available from AudioScience Inc.).”

(ASI cards are required by BSI’s Simian to play MP2s on Windows, too.)

Is the MP2 format so old there are no software decoders? Or is MP2 processing 
so intensive in real time that it must be offloaded to an external sound card?

Is there a way for a RasPi Rivendale node to play MP2s without first converting 
the files to WAV?

Frank Christel

__

On 2/26/2020, at 5:49 PM, Fred Gleason  wrote:

...Not all ASI cards are supported in any given driver version. For CentOS 7 
setups, we provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and 4.20.21 (with v4.20.21 being 
installed by default). Any ASI-5XXX or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with the orange 
colored mu-metal shields) should be able to work with one of those drivers, 
although sometimes some experimentation is required to find out which driver 
does the trick… That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones with the blue mu-metal 
shields) are NOT supported in Rivendell at all.

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[drew Roberts]

Frank,

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 5:43 PM Frank Christel  wrote:

> Noob question: why are ASI cards required to play MP2 files?
>

Experiment with this yourself.

On a test box, say the RasPi Rivendell (corrected) you mention below, run
rdadmin.

click manage hosts.
highlight the host in question and click edit.
click rdlibrary.
about halfway down change Format: from PCM16 to MPEG Layer 2.
save everything until you are out of rdadmin
start rdlibrary and import a new song into a new cart.
try to play the cart.
if it plays...
from a terminal:
file /var/snd/99_001.wav

where the filename bit corresponds to the cart/cut you just imported and
played.

IIRC, the mp2 files are "stored" in wav "containers"...

all the best,

drew

>
> From the “Features and Benefits” list on the Rivendell home page: "Support
> for both PCM16 and MPEG Layer 2 audio formats (MPEG Layer 2 support
> requires the use of select sound cards available from AudioScience Inc.).”
>
> (ASI cards are required by BSI’s Simian to play MP2s on Windows, too.)
>
> Is the MP2 format so old there are no software decoders? Or is MP2
> processing so intensive in real time that it must be offloaded to an
> external sound card?
>
> Is there a way for a RasPi Rivendale node to play MP2s without first
> converting the files to WAV?
>
> Frank Christel
>
> __
>
> On 2/26/2020, at 5:49 PM, Fred Gleason  wrote:
>
> ...Not all ASI cards are supported in any given driver version. For CentOS
> 7 setups, we provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and 4.20.21 (with v4.20.21
> being installed by default). Any ASI-5XXX or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with
> the orange colored mu-metal shields) should be able to work with one of
> those drivers, although sometimes some experimentation is required to find
> out which driver does the trick… That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones with
> the blue mu-metal shields) are NOT supported in Rivendell at all.
>
> ___
> Rivendell-dev mailing list
> Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
> http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
>


-- 
Enjoy the *Paradise Island Cam* playing
*Bahamian Or Nuttin* - https://www.paradiseislandcam.com/
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Frank Christel]

Noob question: why are ASI cards required to play MP2 files?

From the “Features and Benefits” list on the Rivendell home page: "Support for 
both PCM16 and MPEG Layer 2 audio formats (MPEG Layer 2 support requires the 
use of select sound cards available from AudioScience Inc.).”

(ASI cards are required by BSI’s Simian to play MP2s on Windows, too.)

Is the MP2 format so old there are no software decoders? Or is MP2 processing 
so intensive in real time that it must be offloaded to an external sound card? 

Is there a way for a RasPi Rivendale node to play MP2s without first converting 
the files to WAV?

Frank Christel

__

On 2/26/2020, at 5:49 PM, Fred Gleason  wrote:

...Not all ASI cards are supported in any given driver version. For CentOS 7 
setups, we provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and 4.20.21 (with v4.20.21 being 
installed by default). Any ASI-5XXX or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with the orange 
colored mu-metal shields) should be able to work with one of those drivers, 
although sometimes some experimentation is required to find out which driver 
does the trick… That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones with the blue mu-metal 
shields) are NOT supported in Rivendell at all.

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Cowboy]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:40:30 -0500
Fred Gleason  wrote:

> On Feb 27, 2020, at 12:33, Cowboy  wrote:
> 
> > Just means you'll ( we'll ) have to compile ourselves either the driver,
> > if source is available, or the kernel.  
> 
> ‘Fraid not. The current version of the hpklinux driver *does not build* on 
> the kernels used by
> CentOS 6. That was a decision made by AudioScience.

 Well, then... Or both !
 ;-)

-- 
Cowboy
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Rob Landry]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020, Cowboy wrote:


Just means you'll ( we'll ) have to compile ourselves either the driver,
if source is available, or the kernel.


When WNTK got hit by lightning last August, we lost two ASI sound cards of 
a model that had been discontinued. The new cards were not recognized by 
the old driver, and the new driver would not compile under CentOS 6. We 
learned after calling ASI that it required a newer kernel.


Because we had to get back on the air, we pressed into service a couple of 
USB sound adapters and a matchbox I had built for another station.


There were a number of things about the Rivendell machines at WNTK we 
didn't like; they predated our association with the station, and we wanted 
the Rivendell systems there to conform to the standards we follow 
elsewhere. So, we decided to build two new boxes using the CentOS 7 
installer. The CentOS 7 boxes have been reliable, and I haven't built any 
but CentOS 7 systems recently. As long as I don't have to use Gnome 3, I 
can tolerate CentOS 7.


I understand that CentOS 8 is out, but have never played with it.


Rob

--
Сквозь грозы сияло нам солнце свободы
И Linus великий нам путь озарил;
Нас вырастил Stallman на верность народу,
На труд и на подвиги нас вдохновил.

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 27, 2020, at 12:33, Cowboy  wrote:

> Just means you'll ( we'll ) have to compile ourselves either the driver,
> if source is available, or the kernel.

‘Fraid not. The current version of the hpklinux driver *does not build* on the 
kernels used by CentOS 6. That was a decision made by AudioScience.

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| |
| -- Cicero   |
|-|___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 27, 2020, at 12:05, Rob Landry <41001...@interpring.com> wrote:

> And recent driver versions have a minimum kernel version that excludes CentOS 
> 6. Those of us still running CentOS 6 may have trouble when we have to 
> replace a sound card.

CentOS 6 goes EOL in less than a year (November 2020, to be exact), so you’d be 
well advised to have upgrade plans in hand.

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| |
| -- Cicero   |
|-|___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 27, 2020, at 08:07, drew Roberts  wrote:

> Did you miss this from the first email?
> 
> rdalsaconfig shows Audioscience ASI6622

I somehow managed to invert the sense of that one.

The current CentOS installer for Rivendell actually places an entry in 
‘/etc/modprobe.d/‘ to ban the ALSA driver for ASI cards, so one ‘should' never 
see an ASI card in rdalsaconfig(8). Unless, that is, you’re on a system that 
was installed using an earlier version of the installer (that ban entry was 
added to the installer in November 2018).

To add the entry yourself, just do (as root):

echo blacklist\ snd-asihpi > /etc/modprobe.d/asihpi.conf

and then reboot.

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| |
| -- Cicero   |
|-|___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Cowboy]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:05:31 -0500 (EST)
Rob Landry <41001...@interpring.com> wrote:

> And recent driver versions have a minimum kernel version that excludes 
> CentOS 6. Those of us still running CentOS 6 may have trouble when we have 
> to replace a sound card.
> 

 Just means you'll ( we'll ) have to compile ourselves either the driver,
 if source is available, or the kernel.

 No big deal.

 I find that practically every time Red Hat does an update of this whole
 RHEL/CentOS 7 project, things usually get worse.
 Kernel update, screen brightness stops working.
 Next update, screen works, but USB stops.
 Next update, no display at all.
 etc.

 In fact, there's a whole several page write up on the "tar pit of RHEL-7"
 and how it's as bad or worse than Windows ever was !

-- 
Cowboy

Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
-- Henry Spencer

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Rob Landry]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, Fred Gleason wrote:


On Feb 19, 2020, at 23:35, drew Roberts  wrote:
  what cards should show in 3.x?



It depends on what version of ASI’s ‘hpklinux’ driver is being used. Not all
ASI cards are supported in any given driver version.


And recent driver versions have a minimum kernel version that excludes 
CentOS 6. Those of us still running CentOS 6 may have trouble when we have 
to replace a sound card.



Rob

--
Сквозь грозы сияло нам солнце свободы
И Linus великий нам путь озарил;
Нас вырастил Stallman на верность народу,
На труд и на подвиги нас вдохновил.

___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[drew Roberts]

Fred,

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 6:49 PM Fred Gleason 
wrote:

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 23:35, drew Roberts  wrote:
>
> what cards should show in 3.x?
>
>
> It depends on what version of ASI’s ‘hpklinux’ driver is being used. Not
> all ASI cards are supported in any given driver version. For CentOS 7
> setups, we provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and 4.20.21 (with v4.20.21
> being installed by default). Any ASI-5XXX or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with
> the orange colored mu-metal shields) should be able to work with one of
> those drivers, although sometimes some experimentation is required to find
> out which driver does the trick. You can find the RPMs at:
>

Did you miss this from the first email?

rdalsaconfig shows Audioscience ASI6622

I may have been unclear though, I think the cards both systems are
identical. (The current 2.x is the newer card, the one in the spare system
is the old card from the server that took the lightening strike back when.)

>
> http://static.paravelsystems.com/audioscience/centos/7/
>
> That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones with the blue mu-metal shields) are
> NOT supported in Rivendell at all. (Sorry. I know that there are lots of
> these for sale on eBay for cheap, but there’s a good reason for that: they
> are incompatible with modern PC hardware).
>
>
> I have a small spare rivendell system with an asi card (iirc) which was
> 2.x but I just wiped that and installed 3.x
>
> rdalsaconfig does not show the asi card.
>
>
> Nor should it on a standard CentOS setup.
>

So, this was a Centos 7 and Rivendell scripted install per the normal
instructions. The scripted install does not look for ASI cards and
configure them then?

I got it working fairly soon after asking, I can't remember exactly how but
it looks like it included:

yum install hpklinux.x86_64
modprobe hpklinux
modprobe snd_asihpi

I am not sure if I had to do anything else but it eventually showed up.


> While some distros do support running ASI cards through the standard ALSA
> layer, you *really* do not want to do that for Rivendell. ASI’s ‘hpklinux’
> driver is required to unlock the advanced features (time scaling, hardware
> MPEG support) that is found on many ASI cards. For the list of cards
> recognized by the system, see RDAdmin->ManageHosts->AudioResources. If you
> card doesn’t show, try backing down the hpklinux driver to an earlier
> version.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> |-|
> | Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
> |   | Paravel Systems |
> |-|
>
> Thanks, all the best,

drew
-- 
Enjoy the *Paradise Island Cam* playing
*Bahamian Or Nuttin* - https://www.paradiseislandcam.com/
___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

Re: [RDD] 3.x and asi cards.

[Fred Gleason]

On Feb 19, 2020, at 23:35, drew Roberts  wrote:

> what cards should show in 3.x?

It depends on what version of ASI’s ‘hpklinux’ driver is being used. Not all 
ASI cards are supported in any given driver version. For CentOS 7 setups, we 
provide three, v4.13.0, v4.20.10 and 4.20.21 (with v4.20.21 being installed by 
default). Any ASI-5XXX or ASI-6XXX card (the ones with the orange colored 
mu-metal shields) should be able to work with one of those drivers, although 
sometimes some experimentation is required to find out which driver does the 
trick. You can find the RPMs at:

http://static.paravelsystems.com/audioscience/centos/7/

That said, ASI-4XXX cards (the ones with the blue mu-metal shields) are NOT 
supported in Rivendell at all. (Sorry. I know that there are lots of these for 
sale on eBay for cheap, but there’s a good reason for that: they are 
incompatible with modern PC hardware).


> I have a small spare rivendell system with an asi card (iirc) which was 2.x 
> but I just wiped that and installed 3.x
> 
> rdalsaconfig does not show the asi card.

Nor should it on a standard CentOS setup. While some distros do support running 
ASI cards through the standard ALSA layer, you *really* do not want to do that 
for Rivendell. ASI’s ‘hpklinux’ driver is required to unlock the advanced 
features (time scaling, hardware MPEG support) that is found on many ASI cards. 
For the list of cards recognized by the system, see 
RDAdmin->ManageHosts->AudioResources. If you card doesn’t show, try backing 
down the hpklinux driver to an earlier version.

Cheers!


|-|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
|   | Paravel Systems |
|-|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| |
| -- Cicero   |
|-|



___
Rivendell-dev mailing list
Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev