Re: [Rosegarden-user] [rosegarden:bugs] #1575 Inconsistent Collapse Equal pitch notes in matrix editor

[chuck elliot]

'agree with Lorenzo here.

Ties in Matrix format are equivalent to putting punctuation sounds in an 
audio text


a la Victor Borge no? ;o)

It pointlessly conflicts with the Matrix conception of the music for the

sake of a different, currently irrelevant conception of it.

I presume the translation between formats is more or less automatic.

Perhaps its something that could be a user option in Matrix format?

My 2d...

Chuck.




On 2/7/22 9:32 AM, Will Godfrey wrote:

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:30:31 +0100
Lorenzo Sutton  wrote:


Hi Philip,

Thank you so much for looking into this!

On 05/02/22 16:58, Philip Leishman wrote:

Hmm...
The behaviour in the matrix editor comes from the SegmentNotationHelper
makeNotesViable call.
So if the collapse from the matrix editor doesn't make this call .
Of course things will look strange in the notation editor.
I have made a version which doesn't make that call from the matrix editor.
Thoughts ???

I'm honestly not sure. From a UX point of view (personal opinion), as
said I think the matrix and notation editors are different environments
with different use cases potentially within an overall workflow of
working with a piece.

The notation editor is great for, well, inputting notation be it because
a user feels more comfortable with it, but I think also depending on the
type of piece etc. It is also a great starting point for actually
preparing a score, a pretty unique feature of Rosegarden as a sequencer
(especially in linux-land). There tied notes absolutely make sense.

The matrix editor is somewhat 'lower-level' and more related to the
actual workings of MIDI. Older people like me are also familiar with
trackers and the concept of a note as a start,duration,end event in a
timeline (be it vertical or horizontal). The 'notation' of matrix
editors is pretty intuitive and I've always found having 'tied' notes in
it rather confusing. Matrix editor is really the fastest way of
sequencing, especially certain types of music, if you know what you're
doing.

I understand that there seems to be a lower-level code 'connection'
between the two with tied notes, but I'm not sure why one would even
want the concept of tied notes in the matrix. A tied note is just a
notation convention for representing a longer note with shorter values,
be it for performers' readability (e.g. it can make sense to have a 1/2
starting on the 2/2 of a 4/4 measure represented as two 1/4 tied notes),
or for longer notes spanning multiple measures, etc.

Again, from a purely user perspective I just never grasped why tied
notes in the matrix. Maybe I'm missing something. The only use case for
it would be entering notes in the matrix with the final aim of producing
a score and therefore wanting to make explicit certain notation elements
>from the matrix... But then one could argue that you should be able to 

represent dotted notes (which you can consider 'syntactic sugar' for
tied notes borrowing from coding...) etc. etc.

CCing the list so maybe we can have other opinions :-)

Lorenzo


See merge request



*[bugs:#1575] 
Inconsistent Collapse Equal pitch notes in matrix editor*

*Status:* closed
*Group:* None
*Labels:* matrix
*Created:* Tue Apr 14, 2020 04:19 PM UTC by Lorenzo
*Last Updated:* Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:17 PM UTC
*Owner:* Philip Leishman
*Attachments:*

   * matrix_editor_collapse.mp4
 

 (1.3 MB; video/mp4)

While this was somewhat addressed in [bugs:#1495]
 , unfortunately this
behaviour still seems problematic in the *matrix editor* with notes to
be 'collapsed'

What I mean is, try this:

   * In the Matrix editor
   * create two notes that 'touch each other (e.q. 1/4 notes), one on the
 last quarter of a bar, one on the first one of the next
   * Select both notes
   * Do Adjust > Collapse equal pitch notes

As a result the notes (because they are in different bars), actually get
/tied/ which is fine in the notation editor but IMHO not fine in the
matrix editor. Especially 'tied' notes in the matrix editor have two bad
side effects:
1. if you try to increase or decreas the duration of the 'tied' note the
notes are split and individually resized. This is conceptually and
musically wrong in the matrix editor because tied notes are just a
graphical convention, while in the matrix view we are looking at them as
events.
2. The behaviour of the Collapse equal pitch notes is not consistent
because *if* the notes are in the same bars collapsing will create a
unique bigger note as expected; if they are across bars the Collapse
equal pitch notes function will actually do what Phrase > Tie does (also
a function in the matrix editor).

So I think there are 3. options:
1. In the *matrix editor* Collapse Equal-pitch notes does what it says

Re: [Rosegarden-user] [rosegarden:bugs] #1575 Inconsistent Collapse Equal pitch notes in matrix editor

[Will Godfrey]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:30:31 +0100
Lorenzo Sutton  wrote:

>Hi Philip,
>
>Thank you so much for looking into this!
>
>On 05/02/22 16:58, Philip Leishman wrote:
>> Hmm...
>> The behaviour in the matrix editor comes from the SegmentNotationHelper 
>> makeNotesViable call.
>> So if the collapse from the matrix editor doesn't make this call .
>> Of course things will look strange in the notation editor.
>> I have made a version which doesn't make that call from the matrix editor.
>> Thoughts ???  
>
>I'm honestly not sure. From a UX point of view (personal opinion), as 
>said I think the matrix and notation editors are different environments 
>with different use cases potentially within an overall workflow of 
>working with a piece.
>
>The notation editor is great for, well, inputting notation be it because 
>a user feels more comfortable with it, but I think also depending on the 
>type of piece etc. It is also a great starting point for actually 
>preparing a score, a pretty unique feature of Rosegarden as a sequencer 
>(especially in linux-land). There tied notes absolutely make sense.
>
>The matrix editor is somewhat 'lower-level' and more related to the 
>actual workings of MIDI. Older people like me are also familiar with 
>trackers and the concept of a note as a start,duration,end event in a 
>timeline (be it vertical or horizontal). The 'notation' of matrix 
>editors is pretty intuitive and I've always found having 'tied' notes in 
>it rather confusing. Matrix editor is really the fastest way of 
>sequencing, especially certain types of music, if you know what you're 
>doing.
>
>I understand that there seems to be a lower-level code 'connection' 
>between the two with tied notes, but I'm not sure why one would even 
>want the concept of tied notes in the matrix. A tied note is just a 
>notation convention for representing a longer note with shorter values, 
>be it for performers' readability (e.g. it can make sense to have a 1/2 
>starting on the 2/2 of a 4/4 measure represented as two 1/4 tied notes), 
>or for longer notes spanning multiple measures, etc.
>
>Again, from a purely user perspective I just never grasped why tied 
>notes in the matrix. Maybe I'm missing something. The only use case for 
>it would be entering notes in the matrix with the final aim of producing 
>a score and therefore wanting to make explicit certain notation elements 
>from the matrix... But then one could argue that you should be able to 
>represent dotted notes (which you can consider 'syntactic sugar' for 
>tied notes borrowing from coding...) etc. etc.
>
>CCing the list so maybe we can have other opinions :-)
>
>Lorenzo
>
>> See merge request
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> *[bugs:#1575]  
>> Inconsistent Collapse Equal pitch notes in matrix editor*
>> 
>> *Status:* closed
>> *Group:* None
>> *Labels:* matrix
>> *Created:* Tue Apr 14, 2020 04:19 PM UTC by Lorenzo
>> *Last Updated:* Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:17 PM UTC
>> *Owner:* Philip Leishman
>> *Attachments:*
>> 
>>   * matrix_editor_collapse.mp4
>> 
>> 
>> (1.3 MB; video/mp4)
>> 
>> While this was somewhat addressed in [bugs:#1495] 
>>  , unfortunately this 
>> behaviour still seems problematic in the *matrix editor* with notes to 
>> be 'collapsed'
>> 
>> What I mean is, try this:
>> 
>>   * In the Matrix editor
>>   * create two notes that 'touch each other (e.q. 1/4 notes), one on the
>> last quarter of a bar, one on the first one of the next
>>   * Select both notes
>>   * Do Adjust > Collapse equal pitch notes
>> 
>> As a result the notes (because they are in different bars), actually get 
>> /tied/ which is fine in the notation editor but IMHO not fine in the 
>> matrix editor. Especially 'tied' notes in the matrix editor have two bad 
>> side effects:
>> 1. if you try to increase or decreas the duration of the 'tied' note the 
>> notes are split and individually resized. This is conceptually and 
>> musically wrong in the matrix editor because tied notes are just a 
>> graphical convention, while in the matrix view we are looking at them as 
>> events.
>> 2. The behaviour of the Collapse equal pitch notes is not consistent 
>> because *if* the notes are in the same bars collapsing will create a 
>> unique bigger note as expected; if they are across bars the Collapse 
>> equal pitch notes function will actually do what Phrase > Tie does (also 
>> a function in the matrix editor).
>> 
>> So I think there are 3. options:
>> 1. In the *matrix editor* Collapse Equal-pitch notes does what it says 
>> which in matrix editor context means join the notes and make a new big 
>> note from them as long as they are adjacent and regardless of being in 
>> different bars or not. the typical use case is editing a string part in 
>>

Re: [Rosegarden-user] [rosegarden:bugs] #1575 Inconsistent Collapse Equal pitch notes in matrix editor

[Lorenzo Sutton]

Hi Philip,

Thank you so much for looking into this!

On 05/02/22 16:58, Philip Leishman wrote:

Hmm...
The behaviour in the matrix editor comes from the SegmentNotationHelper 
makeNotesViable call.

So if the collapse from the matrix editor doesn't make this call .
Of course things will look strange in the notation editor.
I have made a version which doesn't make that call from the matrix editor.
Thoughts ???


I'm honestly not sure. From a UX point of view (personal opinion), as 
said I think the matrix and notation editors are different environments 
with different use cases potentially within an overall workflow of 
working with a piece.


The notation editor is great for, well, inputting notation be it because 
a user feels more comfortable with it, but I think also depending on the 
type of piece etc. It is also a great starting point for actually 
preparing a score, a pretty unique feature of Rosegarden as a sequencer 
(especially in linux-land). There tied notes absolutely make sense.


The matrix editor is somewhat 'lower-level' and more related to the 
actual workings of MIDI. Older people like me are also familiar with 
trackers and the concept of a note as a start,duration,end event in a 
timeline (be it vertical or horizontal). The 'notation' of matrix 
editors is pretty intuitive and I've always found having 'tied' notes in 
it rather confusing. Matrix editor is really the fastest way of 
sequencing, especially certain types of music, if you know what you're 
doing.


I understand that there seems to be a lower-level code 'connection' 
between the two with tied notes, but I'm not sure why one would even 
want the concept of tied notes in the matrix. A tied note is just a 
notation convention for representing a longer note with shorter values, 
be it for performers' readability (e.g. it can make sense to have a 1/2 
starting on the 2/2 of a 4/4 measure represented as two 1/4 tied notes), 
or for longer notes spanning multiple measures, etc.


Again, from a purely user perspective I just never grasped why tied 
notes in the matrix. Maybe I'm missing something. The only use case for 
it would be entering notes in the matrix with the final aim of producing 
a score and therefore wanting to make explicit certain notation elements 
from the matrix... But then one could argue that you should be able to 
represent dotted notes (which you can consider 'syntactic sugar' for 
tied notes borrowing from coding...) etc. etc.


CCing the list so maybe we can have other opinions :-)

Lorenzo


See merge request



*[bugs:#1575]  
Inconsistent Collapse Equal pitch notes in matrix editor*


*Status:* closed
*Group:* None
*Labels:* matrix
*Created:* Tue Apr 14, 2020 04:19 PM UTC by Lorenzo
*Last Updated:* Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:17 PM UTC
*Owner:* Philip Leishman
*Attachments:*

  * matrix_editor_collapse.mp4


(1.3 MB; video/mp4)

While this was somewhat addressed in [bugs:#1495] 
 , unfortunately this 
behaviour still seems problematic in the *matrix editor* with notes to 
be 'collapsed'


What I mean is, try this:

  * In the Matrix editor
  * create two notes that 'touch each other (e.q. 1/4 notes), one on the
last quarter of a bar, one on the first one of the next
  * Select both notes
  * Do Adjust > Collapse equal pitch notes

As a result the notes (because they are in different bars), actually get 
/tied/ which is fine in the notation editor but IMHO not fine in the 
matrix editor. Especially 'tied' notes in the matrix editor have two bad 
side effects:
1. if you try to increase or decreas the duration of the 'tied' note the 
notes are split and individually resized. This is conceptually and 
musically wrong in the matrix editor because tied notes are just a 
graphical convention, while in the matrix view we are looking at them as 
events.
2. The behaviour of the Collapse equal pitch notes is not consistent 
because *if* the notes are in the same bars collapsing will create a 
unique bigger note as expected; if they are across bars the Collapse 
equal pitch notes function will actually do what Phrase > Tie does (also 
a function in the matrix editor).


So I think there are 3. options:
1. In the *matrix editor* Collapse Equal-pitch notes does what it says 
which in matrix editor context means join the notes and make a new big 
note from them as long as they are adjacent and regardless of being in 
different bars or not. the typical use case is editing a string part in 
the matrix editor and wanting to join notes which span bars for voicing. 
In this case the former functionality is still retained with the 'Tie' 
command which more intuitively ties notes if they span bars
2. Create a new 'join equal pitch' functionality which taken selected