[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On 9/21/07, Hamptonio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Were any of these ideas ever implemented? I am occaisonally messed up by the worksheet quietly restarting without my realizing it. (In that No work has been done on this. I've made this http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/735 so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle. I've recently become a heavy user of screen (the unix tool), and now my perspective how been somewhat changed... I definitely want to rework how timing out works -- i.e., it never happens by default, when you visit your homepage in the notebook it clearly shows all worksheets with a running sage session, etc. Design discussion would be welcome here. Please try out screen if you haven't already too. regard I believe there is a minor bug: when the notebook restarts, it does not add the red bars on the left to indicate an un-executed cell.) I used to use the auto_restart option on a long enough setting that I could intermittingly work on it all day without a restart (8 seconds or so). Will that option be added back in at some point? On Aug 23, 12:16 am, William Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/22/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (By the way, I think it's a known bug that if I hit the save button, then things I've entered into a cell don't get saved if I didn't hit shift-enter.) That is not a bug - it is by design. We may consider changing this behavior though. I think this is a poor idea, interface-wise. What do you think is a poor idea? Changing the behavior or not changing the behavior? When I hit save, I want it to look the same when I come back. In fact, I'm having trouble figuring out what the save button does, if this is the case. When you press shift-enter, it saves the cell... when you press save... ? In addition, when you press save it forces a snapshot to be saved to disk, which you can revert to later. If the server dies, the worksheet is thus saved. -- William -- William Stein Associate Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
(By the way, I think it's a known bug that if I hit the save button, then things I've entered into a cell don't get saved if I didn't hit shift-enter.) That is not a bug - it is by design. We may consider changing this behavior though. I think this is a poor idea, interface-wise. When I hit save, I want it to look the same when I come back. In fact, I'm having trouble figuring out what the save button does, if this is the case. When you press shift-enter, it saves the cell... when you press save... ? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On 8/22/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (By the way, I think it's a known bug that if I hit the save button, then things I've entered into a cell don't get saved if I didn't hit shift-enter.) That is not a bug - it is by design. We may consider changing this behavior though. I think this is a poor idea, interface-wise. What do you think is a poor idea? Changing the behavior or not changing the behavior? When I hit save, I want it to look the same when I come back. In fact, I'm having trouble figuring out what the save button does, if this is the case. When you press shift-enter, it saves the cell... when you press save... ? In addition, when you press save it forces a snapshot to be saved to disk, which you can revert to later. If the server dies, the worksheet is thus saved. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
William Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 8/20/07, Dan Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also curious what happens if I leave a browser open to a worksheet in my office, and then open the worksheet again from home. Do they somehow synchronize? I wish. That would be nice. Instead, you'll eventually get a warning in red that another browser is viewing the same page. Otherwise things are exactly the same. Just to be clear, can I at least take over the worksheet from home, and reload the page when I get to work? Or will they both keep periodically saving different versions causing some conflicts? If the persistent worksheet feature is implemented, then I can at least close my browser at work before going home. But I will certainly forget to do this now and then, so I'm curious what the consequences will be. Hmm, a quick test using two tabs in one browser shows that even if I save changes in one tab, if I reload the page in the other tab the changes don't always appear. But if I close the stale tab and navigate to that worksheet again, I get the updated worksheet. Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On 8/21/07, Dan Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wish. That would be nice. Instead, you'll eventually get a warning in red that another browser is viewing the same page. Otherwise things are exactly the same. Just to be clear, can I at least take over the worksheet from home, and reload the page when I get to work? Or will they both keep periodically saving different versions causing some conflicts? You can take over the worksheet from home and reload the page when you get to work. The one at work never periodically saves anything. The only time any worksheet ever saves information is when you specifically and interactively request evaluation of a cell by pressing shift-enter. If the persistent worksheet feature is implemented, then I can at least close my browser at work before going home. But I will certainly forget to do this now and then, so I'm curious what the consequences will be. Nothing bad, except maybe an annoying warning message (and I can set that up to be easily disabled). Hmm, a quick test using two tabs in one browser shows that even if I save changes in one tab, if I reload the page in the other tab the changes don't always appear. But if I close the stale tab and navigate to that worksheet again, I get the updated worksheet. I don't understand. Refreshing the browser in the stale page should show the changes, assuming you pressed shift-enter to submit the changed code from the other page. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
William Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 8/21/07, Dan Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, a quick test using two tabs in one browser shows that even if I save changes in one tab, if I reload the page in the other tab the changes don't always appear. But if I close the stale tab and navigate to that worksheet again, I get the updated worksheet. I don't understand. Refreshing the browser in the stale page should show the changes, assuming you pressed shift-enter to submit the changed code from the other page. I thought I had been careful to press shift-enter, but I can't reproduce this now. (By the way, I think it's a known bug that if I hit the save button, then things I've entered into a cell don't get saved if I didn't hit shift-enter.) Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On Aug 21, 2007, at 9:00 PM, Dan Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 8/21/07, Dan Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, a quick test using two tabs in one browser shows that even if I save changes in one tab, if I reload the page in the other tab the changes don't always appear. But if I close the stale tab and navigate to that worksheet again, I get the updated worksheet. I don't understand. Refreshing the browser in the stale page should show the changes, assuming you pressed shift-enter to submit the changed code from the other page. I thought I had been careful to press shift-enter, but I can't reproduce this now. (By the way, I think it's a known bug that if I hit the save button, then things I've entered into a cell don't get saved if I didn't hit shift-enter.) That is not a bug - it is by design. We may consider changing this behavior though. Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
Nils Bruin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This makes me think that a checkbox this worksheet is persistent might be better. This sounds good to me. I'm also curious what happens if I leave a browser open to a worksheet in my office, and then open the worksheet again from home. Do they somehow synchronize? Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
I agree. I think a big selling point for sage is using the notebook for teaching. A related thing I would love to have someday is the ability to control which users can see which worksheets, in a fine- grained sense. E.g., I would like to be able to assign students to small groups, and have each group able to see the worksheets of other group members but not the rest of the class, and then after some time let everyone see all the worksheets. The new notebook betas I have seen get at least partway there. On Aug 10, 2:59 pm, Jonathan Bober [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously, this option should not exist on servers that serve a wide range of users. It's really for people doing big computations on their own set of computers. OK. Just a thought - it might be even better to have this option available or not on a per-user basis. In fact, though I haven't used the notebook much, I imagine that it might be nice in general to have a way to assign different privileges to different users. (For example, perhaps user was ought to be able to run a computation on the public notebook on sage.math that is going use 100% load on 8 processors for 3 weeks, whereas user bober, if he exists, shouldn't be able to do that.) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
[...] Would the following work for you? [...] [Save] [Save Close] [ Close Leave Running ] [Discard Changes] Since you ask explicitly, yes that would work. The magical behaviour before was really surprisingly friendly, but rather unpredictable in resource usage. Keep in mind that it is still too easy to steer away from a page in most browsers, so a sheet can be accidentally closed. Is it possible to block navigation events? Also, from what I understand, worksheets are kept alive by the polling of the client? In that case, a flaky network connection (wireless?) or an accidental suspend of your laptop connecting to your backroom server could make you lose the state of a worksheet! This makes me think that a checkbox this worksheet is persistent might be better. Obviously, this option should not exist on servers that serve a wide range of users. It's really for people doing big computations on their own set of computers. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On 8/10/07, Nils Bruin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Would the following work for you? [...] [Save] [Save Close] [ Close Leave Running ] [Discard Changes] Since you ask explicitly, yes that would work. The magical behaviour before was really surprisingly friendly, but rather unpredictable in resource usage. Keep in mind that it is still too easy to steer away from a page in most browsers, so a sheet can be accidentally closed. Is it possible to block navigation events? I can make SAGE popup a are you sure you want to leave this page dialog when you try to navigate away. It is trivial to implement -- I did it once and forced myself to use it for 2 miserable days -- it's horribly annoying. That said, SAGE doesn't kill a running worksheet process until several *minutes* after all web browsers that are viewing it have stopped viewing it. It's not an immediate thing, or something that happens immediately on closing the browsing. Also, from what I understand, worksheets are kept alive by the polling of the client? In that case, a flaky network connection (wireless?) or an accidental suspend of your laptop connecting to your backroom server could make you lose the state of a worksheet! True, but again, you would have to loose your connection for several *minutes*. This makes me think that a checkbox this worksheet is persistent might be better. That's definitely a reasonable proposal. What would you want it placed in the interface? One possibility is to put it in a hackish location initially, and put it in a separate worksheet configuration page later once such a page is implemented (I started on it but ran out of time). Obviously, this option should not exist on servers that serve a wide range of users. It's really for people doing big computations on their own set of computers. OK. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On 8/9/07, Nils Bruin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand the necessity to quit ignored worksheets in many cases, to save resources. However, it does kill a highly desirable behaviour that existed before: 1) start very long computation at work 2) kill browser, log out (process still running) 3) from home, connect to worksheet to check partial data, log out again 4) next morning, fire up browser and use results in worksheet that were completed at, say, 3am In the current model, I'm afraid the results would not be living anymore, because shortly after the session completed, it would probably get killed due to being ignored. I understand there are work-arounds, like saving the resulting object as soon as it is computed, and in long computations it's advisable anyway to save checkpoints. The sage notebook behaviour used to be really friendly for these things, though. It would be easier to add a feature that would turn off the auto-kill for a given worksheet. Would the following work for you? In the top right where it has the buttons [Save] [Save Close] [Discard Changes] change it to [Save] [Save Close] [ Close Leave Running ] [Discard Changes] If Close and Leave Running is selected then the worksheet is saved, closed, and the auto-kill feature for that worksheet is turned off until the page is viewed again, when it's turned back on. One question is whether this button should appear for the public server or not. And, if it does, if it should still have some timeout, e.g., some number of hours. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
On Aug 10, 2007, at 4:47 AM, William Stein wrote: On 8/9/07, Nils Bruin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] One question is whether this button should appear for the public server or not. And, if it does, if it should still have some timeout, e.g., some number of hours. I like the solution you propose. For the public server(s), I think it's reasonable to limit the usage, either by having a (non- modifiable) timeout, or not providing the feature. Justin -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large Institute for the Absorption of Federal Funds Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Quitting ignored worksheet vs. long computations
Obviously, this option should not exist on servers that serve a wide range of users. It's really for people doing big computations on their own set of computers. OK. Just a thought - it might be even better to have this option available or not on a per-user basis. In fact, though I haven't used the notebook much, I imagine that it might be nice in general to have a way to assign different privileges to different users. (For example, perhaps user was ought to be able to run a computation on the public notebook on sage.math that is going use 100% load on 8 processors for 3 weeks, whereas user bober, if he exists, shouldn't be able to do that.) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
